February 2025 - Talk - lists.gtalug.org

Anyone using Google Cloud Shell?
by William Park 19 Feb '25

19 Feb '25

I keep getting spam about "Deletion notice for your Google Cloud Shell home directory" from Google. Curious, I clicked. I must have activated the cloud console in the past but can't be sure when. Anyways, anyone using Google Cloud Shell? It's Ubuntu 24.04 terminal shell in browser. --

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Surprising selfhosted LLM performance with underwhelming results
by Mark Prosser 17 Feb '25

17 Feb '25

The Tuesday meeting came at exactly the right time; My managers want to tick off the AI box, so I've been trying to become informed to prevent any disastrous outcomes, squashing my network automation efforts. I was thrilled to find out just how easy it was to self-host these models, and that it was feasible to do it on a mini PC, like my Beelink SER6 (small NUC-like mobile ryzen platform). I downloaded the model last night, and to my surprise, the performance was more than adequate. The model was able to reason & give seemingly good results, despite my box being at the very low end of "AI performance". The bad news is that, all this hype about "Agentic AI" and all the other cool "tool models" isn't really fully available yet, in a format that can be hosted well on my box -- let alone a box I can afford. To make matters worse, it also seems that distilled models aren't really 1:1 Deepseek R1. Rather, they're more-so the same old meta model, trained off of R1's reasoning & results. So it's not always comparing apples to apples, when people discuss their results. When I dug deeper into what's going on in "Agentic AI", especially in the network automation space, the results are currently more trivial than I could've imagined. They also currently rely on cloud API access, since you need the big hosted models... something that I would never condone in my environment, no matter how much the google whitepaper assures that "extensions" and "function calling" help with this concern. Anyway, it's neat that I can have this little chat bot or coding assistant hosted on a little cube on my desk; however, it seems that it's still quite far away that I can have little AI interns working on generating insightful signals for my automation workflows. Some additional reading I found interesting: https://arxiv.org/abs/2308.15030 https://arxiv.org/abs/2402.04249 https://angiejones.tech/system-access-for-ai-agents/ https://antirez.com/news/146 Thanks, everyone. See you at the next meeting! Warm regards, -- Mark Prosser // E: mark(a)zealnetworks.ca // W: https://zealnetworks.ca

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Asking for advice/insight: Which filesystem for an encrypted root partition on a single disk?
by Daniel Wayne Armstrong 16 Feb '25

16 Feb '25

Which file system should I use for an encrypted root partition on Linux for a single disk? I typically use LUKS + ext4. I've also used encrypted BTRFS and ZFS (with ZFSBootMenu) but never worked with them to any extent beyond getting them setup. I see distros such as Fedora are now defaulting to using BTRFS. For a Linux install on systems with 8GB-16GB RAM and a single disk (no RAID), I'm seeking some advice: Should I stick with ext4? Or use BTRFS? Or ZFS? -- Website: https://www.dwarmstrong.org

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Seeking Recommendations For New Desktop PC -- To Run Debian Linux;
by Steve Petrie 15 Feb '25

15 Feb '25

Greetings To GTALUG Members, The desktop PC I built from parts in late 2017 is dying. Looks like the ASRock E97 EXTREME ATX LGA1150 mainboard is failing. I get various mainboard error messages at power on and today got some linux boot panics before a final power on booted the Debian 11 linux live on USB. Looks like ASRock no longer makes the E97 EXTREME ATX LGA1150 mainboard and anyway, since I built this computer in late 2017, it's already seen over 7 years of heavy usage. So I will buy a new one. There is one disk drive in the PC that I will move to the new PC: Western Digital 3.5 inch SATA 2TB. Recommendations for a new desktop PC to run Debian linux booting live from USB port, would be appreciated. Steve Petrie apetrie(a)aspetrie.net 416-233-6116

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CZUR Linux support
by D. Hugh Redelmeier 13 Feb '25

13 Feb '25

CZUR makes interesting scanners. They are currently listing a new model "CZUR ET MAX" on kickstarter. <https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/czur-notebook/czur-et-max-the-unpreced…> They claim that it will support Linux. But then we bought an ET24 Pro from them because they claimed it would support Linux. Unfortunately, it only supports Ubuntu. I bet that will be true of the new model, even though this isn't disclosed in the advertising material. <https://www.czur.com/support/et24_25pro> We wanted a scanner that didn't require rebooting to use it. Switching from Fedora to Ubuntu and back isn't better than switching to Windows and back. I guess they could have used a flatpack or snap, but they don't. I've suggested it to them but I got no response. In any case, the software is not open source. Is it easy for me to run this software on Fedora? - I could run Ubuntu in a VM under Fedora but that feels way too heavy: a whole extra distro installation - is there a way that I could package their stuff ans a Flatpak or Snap? Any other ideas are welcome.

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Service resource management: i.e. Mailman3 vs Mailman2
by Ron / BCLUG 11 Feb '25

11 Feb '25

I found a nifty trick for measuring the resource consumption of various services using systemd. This was while trying to gauge the differences between Mailman v2 and Mailman v3 resource management. I have ranted about how much more expensive MM3 is in resource consumption (basically, about ¾ of a 2GB RAM VPS is consumed). I wanted further details. What I found was, a setting (or several) that systemd provides: There are a couple methods for enabling the *Accounting= features: Edit /etc/systemd/system.conf and enabling: DefaultCPUAccounting=yes DefaultIOAccounting=yes DefaultIPAccounting=yes DefaultBlockIOAccounting=yes DefaultMemoryAccounting=yes DefaultTasksAccounting=yes If one wants it for a single service, also a couple methods: systemctl set-property mailman3 TasksAccounting=yes MemoryAccounting=yes systemctl daemon-reload Or add these lines (my preferred method, no systemctl daemon-reload needed): # systemctl edit mailman3 [Service] MemoryAccounting=yes TasksAccounting=yes Or: do it manually This makes it really easy to measure resources used by a service that has many processes running, i.e.: # systemctl status mailman ... Tasks: 9 (limit: 2256) Memory: 46.5M CGroup: /system.slice/mailman.service ├─1054 /usr/bin/python2 /usr/lib/mailman/bin/mailmanctl ├─1056 /usr/bin/python2 /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner ├─1057 /usr/bin/python2 /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner ├─1058 /usr/bin/python2 /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner ├─1067 /usr/bin/python2 /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner ├─1068 /usr/bin/python2 /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner ├─1071 /usr/bin/python2 /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner ├─1083 /usr/bin/python2 /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner └─1084 /usr/bin/python2 /var/lib/mailman/bin/qrunner And for comparison, mailman 3 (which has TWO service files): # systemctl status mailman3 ... Tasks: 17 Memory: 889.9M CGroup: /system.slice/mailman3.service ├─4112698 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112711 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112712 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112713 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112714 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112715 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112717 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112718 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112719 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112720 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112721 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112725 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112726 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112790 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python └─4112791 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python # systemctl status mailman3-web ... Tasks: 12 Memory: 182.4M CGroup: /system.slice/mailman3-web.service ├─4112890 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/uwsgi ├─4112904 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/uwsgi ├─4112905 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/uwsgi ├─4112906 /bin/sh ... ├─4112908 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112910 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112912 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112913 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python ├─4112914 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python └─4112915 /opt/mailman/venv/bin/python It's now quite clear: mm2 uses 9 process and < 50 MB RAM, but MM3 uses 17+12=29 processes (and that's with the default NNTP bridge disabled), and 889.9+182.4=1072.3 MB RAM. That's a *lot* of Python processes! Also, both require Apache (or NGINX), and MM3 requires PostgreSQL. As it is, I can see a lot of small mailing list users abandoning MM3 over this issue (plus its complexity). For my list, that's about one Python interpreter loaded into RAM for each list subscriber!

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REMINDER: Tomorrow Night, General Meeting
by Alan Heighway 10 Feb '25

10 Feb '25

Open Source AI with Marcel Gagné <https://www.gtalug.org/?p=198> Description: *In this session, we’re going to take a practical, hands-on look at the state of generative AI, with a special focus on open-source models, particularly DeepSeek R1. I’ll cover what makes DeepSeek R1 noteworthy, how it compares to other models, and why there’s so much excitement around it. More importantly, I’ll show you how to run these models locally on Linux using tools like Ollama and LM Studio, so you can experiment without relying on the cloud. Since this is a friendly crowd of Linux enthusiasts, I’ll tailor the discussion to practical, real-world applications—including AI-assisted scripting, coding, and documentation generation, among other things. Expect a lively Q&A, so bring your curiosity—whether it’s about self-hosting models, fine-tuning, or the broader implications of AI in open source.* Agenda: 1. Business Meeting 2. Presentation 3. Discussion 4. Adjournment 5. More Discussion @ the Pub (Optional) Date / Time: February 11th, 2025 19:30 EST Location: In Person: TMU George Vari Engineering and Computing Centre, 245 Church Street (just north of Dundas), Room 201 (See note below) Online using Nextcloud: https://hub.gtalug.org/call/7m45sf9i NOTE: The doors to the building are normally locked. There will be someone from GTALUG at the doors on the southeast corner of Church and Gould to let people in. If you come late or don’t see anyone at the door please SMS at 647 657 6575 for THIS NIGHT ONLY. Do not call. *A*lan *H*eighway <http://heighway.ca/> heighway.ca 416-712-5247 VA3WAH / VA3YKZ [image: Please consider the environment before printing]

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DeepSeek and FOSS - some thoughts
by Evan Leibovitch 05 Feb '25

05 Feb '25

Hi all. As I watch the stock market and geopolitical analysis melt down over the emergence of DeepSeek, I am reminded of a Linkedin (of all places) post by Meta's chief AI scientist. Deepseek is not a triumph of Chinese innovation over US sanctions and unlimited capital. It's a triumph of open over closed models. It could not have existed without building on top of Llama and other open tools. it wrecks the pseudo-openness of OpenAI with something completely transparent. Having said that, neither Llama nor DeepSeek is truly open source. The rub is limitations on use, disallowed by both the FSF Four Freedoms and the OSI Open Source Definition. For DeepSeek, the code is under the MIT license, but the data may not be used: - In any way that violates any applicable national or international law or regulation or infringes upon the lawful rights and interests of any third party; - For military use in any way; - For the purpose of exploiting, harming or attempting to exploit or harm minors in any way; - To generate or disseminate verifiably false information and/or content with the purpose of harming others; - To generate or disseminate inappropriate content subject to applicable regulatory requirements; - To generate or disseminate personal identifiable information without due authorization or for unreasonable use; - To defame, disparage or otherwise harass others; - For fully automated decision making that adversely impacts an individual’s legal rights or otherwise creates or modifies a binding, enforceable obligation; - For any use intended to or which has the effect of discriminating against or harming individuals or groups based on online or offline social behavior or known or predicted personal or personality characteristics; - To exploit any of the vulnerabilities of a specific group of persons based on their age, social, physical or mental characteristics, in order to materially distort the behavior of a person pertaining to that group in a manner that causes or is likely to cause that person or another person physical or psychological harm; - For any use intended to or which has the effect of discriminating against individuals or groups based on legally protected characteristics or categories. (from https://github.com/deepseek-ai/DeepSeek-LLM/blob/HEAD/LICENSE-MODEL) Now, some of these are pretty vague and a Chinese entity will have a hard time enforcing them internationally, but I think may people can live with these limitations. What do you think? If Deepseek is successful it could break proprietary models. Could it break open source ones too? -- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56

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Utility to parse HTTP response
by William Park 03 Feb '25

03 Feb '25

Hi all, To build HTTP request, you use 'curl'. After you get HTTP response, what utility do you use to extract stuffs you want? JSON format has 'jq', and XML format has 'xmlstarlet'. I'm looking for something like that but for HTTP format. --

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Re: [GTALUG] Service resource management: i.e. Mailman3 vs Mailman2
by Ron / BCLUG 01 Feb '25

01 Feb '25

ac via talk wrote on 2025-01-30 04:02: > many projects are becoming 'over developed' > (my pet peeve is all desktop environments) As a KDE user & fan, I'm going to respectfully disagree. Even on my ancient computer, I have multiple cores running at billions of cycles per second, and I want and can afford many of the features that devs immersed in desktop environments implement. It's not like I have a coin-operated computer where a bit of "eye candy", or loading a few extra libraries costs me anything. If it's a few milliseconds slower to accomplish something (and that's an "if"), who cares. I can do things that no other DE can do, and those things have become essential. If it can do everything I could possibly want and some things I never thought I'd want, and it's free, it's one of the few areas of modern tech that hasn't been enshitified beyond recognition. I often compare the "over development" of software complaints to someone in the '80s or '90s complaining about PCs being an over complicated way of doing what slide rules, ledgers, and adding machines can do. > we are still using mm2 and if > no longer supported, we will probably fork or maintain security as the > functionality is enough and it is working fine. I'm honestly kind of surprised that no one has forked MM2 to run on Python3. Maybe the effort required to end up with the same ugly interface vs just moving to MM3 and its nicer interface, plus the burden of support and maintenance just isn't very appealing. > I do not use MM3 and I was wondering, is it the many modules that are > using all the resources? (I have not used google, but I am thinking maybe > hyperkitty (i think it's called?) and/or any of the other modules that are > resource hungry? (can some of the modules be disabled?) It, like MM2, runs its various tasks as separate Python scripts. They get loaded - scripts and Python interpreters - at start up and remain resident in RAM. So, yeah, these modules are what's consuming resources. Hyperkitty (the archiver) and other components of mailman3-web can be disabled and I believe messages to the list will still be distributed, but then there's no archiving of messages, no admin interface, etc. It probably isn't worth it to just run mailman3 without mailman3-web. Cheers

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