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In the Beginning was the Command Line
by joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg＠public.gmane.org 10 Dec '03

10 Dec '03

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:44:12 -0500 Marcus Brubaker <marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote: > that capitalism has the advantage that non-participants > (non-capital holders in this case) don't cause the system to fail for > participants. No, the "non-participants" just starve...Capitalism works *real* well for about, oh, say 3% of the world's population, the rest barely eke out a living on the margins. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Reality is what you can get away with." -- Robert Anton Wilson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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In the Beginning was the Command Line
by james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA＠public.gmane.org 10 Dec '03

10 Dec '03

Justin Zygmont wrote: >>Well, this is the problem. As soon as one criticises Capitalism, the immediate >>response is: "Well Communism sucks even more!" I nowhere advocated, communism, >>of course. > > > lets not get into that kind of discussion, please. There's always better > things to talk about. Well, we can always talk about that great delusion called "religion". ;-) -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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hard drive wanted
by jmm-TU2q2He6PgRlD5gtYiU6kEEOCMrvLtNR＠public.gmane.org 10 Dec '03

10 Dec '03

On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 02:20:37PM -0500, Byron Sonne wrote: > I have a bunch in ~2GB and ~4GB, but SCSI only I'm afraid. However, > having gone through my stash and reorganized I found I have more SCSI > controllers than I thought. I'd have no problem throwing one in but > you're probably looking at only 10MB/s xfer rate. 2940AU I believe. > > If anyone else out there needs a drive the offer's open for that too, > but minus a controller since I need to hang on to the rest. I could make use of one of tose drives. My old Mac 7200 has a tiny and a small drive, they could both fit onto a 2GB drive and have some room for growth. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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In the Beginning was the Command Line
by marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA＠public.gmane.org 10 Dec '03

10 Dec '03

On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 18:05, Taavi Burns wrote: > On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 05:03:25PM -0500, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > > in order to encourage internal industries. The key is that money is a > > commodity and its value is dictated by supply and demand just like > > everything else. The benefit of using a currency over hard goods is > > precisely that it can be borrowed without it actually existing. You > > can't borrow a loaf of bread that doesn't exist, but you can borrow > > money which doesn't really exist. This allows investment and economic > > growth that wouldn't otherwise be possible. > > Ah, but money doesn't really exist either. It only has value because > everyone agrees that it has value, usually as a direct result of a government > backing it with actual resources, or a reputable promise of having > resources. Absolutely...which is why lending works, as I was saying above. Of course, most every government in the world has long since stopped backing their currency with any resource in particular. I think the US went off the gold standard in the late 1800s, early 1900s, although I could be wrong on that. Interesting side note: I once heard it said that the author of the Wizard of Oz was strongly in favor of having a resource backed currency. So much so, in fact, that he wrote it into the story, "Follow the yellow brick road..." Of course, that could be completely false... -- Marcus Brubaker <marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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In the Beginning was the Command Line
by jzygmont-tEQKYFGiemxAYG7eUwYNkWD2FQJk+8+b＠public.gmane.org 10 Dec '03

10 Dec '03

> Well, this is the problem. As soon as one criticises Capitalism, the immediate > response is: "Well Communism sucks even more!" I nowhere advocated, communism, > of course. lets not get into that kind of discussion, please. There's always better things to talk about. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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In the Beginning was the Command Line
by taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ＠public.gmane.org 10 Dec '03

10 Dec '03

On Wed, Dec 10, 2003 at 05:03:25PM -0500, Marcus Brubaker wrote: > in order to encourage internal industries. The key is that money is a > commodity and its value is dictated by supply and demand just like > everything else. The benefit of using a currency over hard goods is > precisely that it can be borrowed without it actually existing. You > can't borrow a loaf of bread that doesn't exist, but you can borrow > money which doesn't really exist. This allows investment and economic > growth that wouldn't otherwise be possible. Ah, but money doesn't really exist either. It only has value because everyone agrees that it has value, usually as a direct result of a government backing it with actual resources, or a reputable promise of having resources. -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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In the Beginning was the Command Line
by marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA＠public.gmane.org 10 Dec '03

10 Dec '03

On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 17:21, JoeHill wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:03:25 -0500 > Marcus Brubaker <marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote: > > > The same could be said of every major system. Communism would work > > beautifully...if only everyone participated. The reality is that any > > successful system of capital must be able to handle non-participants. > > In a sense, thats the beauty of capitalism, there is no way to not > > participate short of not having capital. > > Well, this is the problem. As soon as one criticises Capitalism, the immediate > response is: "Well Communism sucks even more!" I nowhere advocated, communism, > of course. I wasn't saying you advocated communism, nor that communism sucked. Communism is beautiful in theory. I was just pointing out that most every imaginable system of capital would work perfectly if only everyone participated and that capitalism has the advantage that non-participants (non-capital holders in this case) don't cause the system to fail for participants. This is not to say that one is better than the other. Regards, -- Marcus Brubaker <marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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In the Beginning was the Command Line
by joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg＠public.gmane.org 10 Dec '03

10 Dec '03

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 17:03:25 -0500 Marcus Brubaker <marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> wrote: > The same could be said of every major system. Communism would work > beautifully...if only everyone participated. The reality is that any > successful system of capital must be able to handle non-participants. > In a sense, thats the beauty of capitalism, there is no way to not > participate short of not having capital. Well, this is the problem. As soon as one criticises Capitalism, the immediate response is: "Well Communism sucks even more!" I nowhere advocated, communism, of course. -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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In the Beginning was the Command Line
by joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg＠public.gmane.org 10 Dec '03

10 Dec '03

On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:51:40 -0500 lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) wrote: > I wonder what some south american countries would think of your idea. I > don't think their devaluation of money has helped their economy at all. > > Incentive to spend rather than horde may be an OK idea, but money that > looses value isn't necesarily such a good thing, although I guess at the > moment basic interest rate isn't doing much better than inflation. Of > course encouraging people to spend money they don't have is a really bad > idea and I think that too happens sometimes when spending is encouraged > too much. Did some quick Googling and here's a somewhat better explanation of the concept: http://www.transaction.net/money/gc/gc01.html#intro -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "One of the most dangerous errors of our time is the belief that human beings are uniquely violent animals, barely restrained from committing atrocities on each other by the constraints of ethics, religion, and the state."-- Eric S. Raymond -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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In the Beginning was the Command Line
by marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA＠public.gmane.org 10 Dec '03

10 Dec '03

On Wed, 2003-12-10 at 16:29, JoeHill wrote: > On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 13:51:40 -0500 > lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) wrote: > > > I wonder what some south american countries would think of your idea. I > > don't think their devaluation of money has helped their economy at all. > > LOL! Of course, it doesn't work if *everyone* doesn't participate. Besides, it's > a little more complicated than the one-line explanation that I provided, > so I don't think you can take too much from it. The same could be said of every major system. Communism would work beautifully...if only everyone participated. The reality is that any successful system of capital must be able to handle non-participants. In a sense, thats the beauty of capitalism, there is no way to not participate short of not having capital. Actually, the South American markets (Brazil in particular) provide an even better counter-example to what I understand you to be suggesting than just the recent currency devaluations. In the 1970s and 1980s the Brazilian government spent money they didn't have in an attempt to distribute capital and build the economy. Unfortunately, this caused hyperinflation (> 1000% inflation) and utterly decimated the middle class which didn't have the funds to invest in more stable resources to protect the capital from the inflation that the government was causing. My girlfriends parents were living in Brazil in the 1980s. The reality of life wasn't pleasant. People were payed (at least) twice a day and given a break immediately after being payed to go out and buy food with their pay before prices went up further. If you didn't have a job you were screwed because any savings you had were worthless unless they were invested in other resources. You can't really blame external forces for this inflation[1] either, because at the time Brazil had completely isolated itself from imports in order to encourage internal industries. The key is that money is a commodity and its value is dictated by supply and demand just like everything else. The benefit of using a currency over hard goods is precisely that it can be borrowed without it actually existing. You can't borrow a loaf of bread that doesn't exist, but you can borrow money which doesn't really exist. This allows investment and economic growth that wouldn't otherwise be possible. > > > Incentive to spend rather than horde may be an OK idea, but money that > > looses value isn't necesarily such a good thing, although I guess at the > > moment basic interest rate isn't doing much better than inflation. Of > > course encouraging people to spend money they don't have is a really bad > > idea and I think that too happens sometimes when spending is encouraged > > too much. > > Well, only *money* loses value, so there's not necessarily any real effect on > personal wealth. One's wealth comes from material and/or service accrual, > and *cash flow*, instead of interest. > Which screws anyone who provides services, especially seasonal services. IT workers being noteworthy, as well as migrant crop workers. In essence, the current reserve banks in North America try to achieve what you're suggesting by low interest rates which encourage spending and borrowing over saving. Of course, they have to balance spending/saving carefully, less we get inflationary problems. > You'd be better off reading about it from someone who can explain it in more > detail, in the long run. That was really just a one-liner in a much bigger > argument, an example of an alternative mainly. > Any suggestions? Economics is a hobby of mine :) Regards, -- Marcus Brubaker <marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> [1] As opposed to most of the inflation that happened in North America during the late 70's which was a result of the oil crisis. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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