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Windows refund: UNstymied
by blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F＠public.gmane.org 29 Aug '03

29 Aug '03

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, Keith Mastin wrote: > >> http://www.cypherpunks.ca/dell.html > I agree to where I've been sseing this thread going, but I have a question... > > Where will this all lead to? We send a petition, they look at it and Tongue firmly planted in cheek...: Imagine a person X and a group Y, vendor A. X must agree to document, document, document! (as in original linuxtoday article; anyone have that reference?) Where I see this going is this (t = #days): t=0: -1) X and Y agree on a course of action. t=1: 0) X starts process with vendor. t=30 1) Y: set up a web page offering help for DIYselfers. t=60 2) X and A go to small claims court t=60.5 3) X and Y party t=61 4) Y posts newsblitz: 1 peson helped t=65 5) repeat steps 0-5 with 10**i more people. The process will evolve, but not much. At the end of 111th student, Y should have iron-clad method for profit extraction. (If we bottle it, we can sell the company for $$$$$$$... 8) Y can give "refund science" diplomas to XXXXXXXXXs. Y can sell "refund science" tshirts for fun...draising. --->The real benefit is that Y and X learn how to DIY.<--- > Dell is a business, so they make decisions based on the bottom line. > future bottom line or they won't budge. Why should they if it isn't > plesing to shareholders? t=180: A gives up the fight and redrafts "licence" after 1111th refund scientist graduates t=181: global linux user party (A drops by for a beer, too) "pleasing to the bottom line" = "no negative publicity" + $199 x 1111 $199 x 1111 = 221089 displeasures to shareholders. This comes from *bottom line* profits, not revenues. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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St. Christopher House web page needs alt tags, was RE: Learning PHP
by blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F＠public.gmane.org 29 Aug '03

29 Aug '03

On Fri, 29 Aug 2003, Andrew Malcolmson wrote: > BTW: how does an ALT tag display in a text browser? <p> <img src="foo.jpg" alt="[bar]"> </p> looks like this in lynx: [bar] > Also: this looks a lot better in links (aka elinks) than in lynx. Didn't > try w3m. elinks??? whazzat? is it javascript enabled? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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St. Christopher House web page needs alt tags, was RE: Learning PHP
by kcozens-qazKcTl6WRFWk0Htik3J/w＠public.gmane.org 29 Aug '03

29 Aug '03

At 07:22 PM 08/29/2003 -0500, Andrew Malcolmson wrote: >BTW: how does an ALT tag display in a text browser? > >Also: this looks a lot better in links (aka elinks) than in lynx. Didn't >try w3m. ALT tags for images displayed in side square brackets (ie. [ and ]) with the stuff between the two brackets consisting of the text of the ALT tag. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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St. Christopher House web page needs alt tags, was RE: Learning PHP
by andzy-bYF1QM81rroS+FvcfC7Uqw＠public.gmane.org 29 Aug '03

29 Aug '03

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 10:00:49 -0400 (EDT), "Max Blanco" <blanco-S8qYAnHmZTt34ZA5RureAJ4VBq8PJc8F at public.gmane.org> said: > On Tue, 26 Aug 2003, Andrew Malcolmson wrote: > > > > > Here's their web page: > > > > http://www.bangthedrum.net > > > > > > Do they know about > <http://www.htmlhelp.com/design/accessibility/>? > > It seems like they have excluded the lynx user... > > Using Technology to Promote Social Inclusion > > Information and Communication Technologies (ICT) are increasingly > becoming a basic need for people living and working in Canada. In > order to have control over one's life people need to access and be > able to apply the standard tools of our society. Not being able to > access or manipulate ICT creates a disadvantage to those without > access or skills. > > The St. Christopher House Community Learning Network is about > enhancing people's ability to use computers and the Internet to engage > in meaningful social activities. > Thanks - I'll pass your comment on. This will be useful as the PHP project they're working on is to build a services/resources information portal and accessibily should definitely be a requirement. BTW: how does an ALT tag display in a text browser? Also: this looks a lot better in links (aka elinks) than in lynx. Didn't try w3m. ------------------- Andrew Malcolmson -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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Grub Not Starting
by tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ＠public.gmane.org 29 Aug '03

29 Aug '03

lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys at public.gmane.org (Lennart Sorensen) writes: > On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 11:30:03AM -0400, Kareem Shehata wrote: > > Apologies in advance for the total newbie-ness of this question, but I > > can't seem to figure this one out. > > > > I've managed to shrink the ntfs partition my Inspiron shipped with > > thanks to Fraser's tip. I've set up swap on hda2 and Gentoo on hda3. I > > followed the gentoo docs on setting up grub on the MBR (hda or hd0), but > > every time it boots I get: > > > > GRUB Loading stage1.5. > > > > > > GRUB Loading, please wait... > > > > Then nothing. > > > > The good news is that I can boot both XP and Gentoo using a grub boot > > floppy and typing in my grub.conf manually. That leaves me with the > > impression that there's something wrong with the way I'm setting up > > grub. The docs said to do the following in grub: > > > root (hd0,2) > > > setup (hd0) > > > > Any ideas? > > On debian I do: grub-install /dev/hda and that's it. I don't use grub > to install grub. FWIW, on my Inspiron 1100, the hard disk is actually hdc, the CD-ROM is hda. Debian suggested this in my lilo.conf: # Overrides the default mapping between harddisk names and the BIOS' # harddisk order. Use with caution. disk=/dev/hdc bios=0x80 Perhaps Grub has a similar option or maybe you need to use hd1. Just a thought. -- tim writer <tim-s/rLXaiAEBtBDgjK7y7TUQ at public.gmane.org> starnix inc. tollfree: 1-87-pro-linux thornhill, ontario, canada http://www.starnix.com professional linux services & products -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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Drive Imaging with dd
by kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q＠public.gmane.org 29 Aug '03

29 Aug '03

On Fri, 2003-08-29 at 16:41, Robert Brockway wrote: > Hmm...good point. I was trying to get the dd stream non-interrupted > before sending it to gzip. How about this: > > gzip -1 `dd if=/dev/hda1 of=shuttlepod.hda1` I thing gzip has to interrupt the stream, unfortunately. Oh well, 10Mb/s is about 4x faster than the previous usb solution, and it gets better compression too. > > I'm trying to take a complete snapshot of the partition so that if > > *anything* happens, all I have to do is create the partition, dump the > > data, and boot. I'm not certain tar would capture everything, and NT/XP > > are notorious for doing interesting things with the filesystem. > > I take your point about NT/XP. I hadn't heard of any weirdness that > Linux's emulation of these filesystem types didn't cope with. Might be > worth checking into further though. > > I'm currently experimenting with tar for this purpose for the backup CD I > mentioned and I've seen no problems so far. My test system is Win98 using > vfat. With Win9x, this is definitely doable. Actually, I used to just xcopy stuff across, once upon a time. NTFS is a whole other ball of wax. Windows does all kinds of funny stuff with the filesystem, but there's good news. There's a new version of the kernel driver for ntfs that supports everything up to XP. I just did a quick google for mkntfs, and it looks as though it may be possible. > As I'm sure you're aware the problem with dd is that what you get is an > image of the filesystem, which means when you dump the image onto a new HD > you get the old filesystem back, meaning that you may not be able to > effectively use the full size of the new drive without resizing, or > something like that. > > I'm been working on the assumption that my CD will have all the tools to > make a fat/vfat filesystem when needed, and then drop the tar file > back. The CD itself will carry doco on the procedure, etc. I can't > recall offhand if I'd located a unix based tool to make an NTFS. I > actually suspect not. Is this a tool for migration or backup? I find when migrating boxes, it's best to reinstall Windows, then pour across any data. For backups, I like the idea of a drive image because I'm guaranteed to have everything on the drive, and restoring is simple. But that's just my personal preference. For less demanding users, simply throwing the tar file might do the trick. > I'll look at including dd as alternative backup mechanism. I suspect it > would have speed advantages over tar. dd is an essential tool, even if all you use it for is making floppy's or cd images. I wouldn't write scripts around it, as anyone who really needs it will know how to use it, or use Ghost4Unix. Let me know how the CD goes. Kareem -- /********************************************************************* kareem-d+8TeBu5bOew5LPnMra/2Q at public.gmane.org - Kareem Shehata - 416-676-6611 -------------------------------------------------------------------- I may not have gone where I intended to go, but I think I have ended up where I intended to be. -- Douglas Adams ********************************************************************/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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Drive Imaging with dd
by lsorense-1wCw9BSqJbv44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys＠public.gmane.org 29 Aug '03

29 Aug '03

On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 04:41:30PM -0400, Robert Brockway wrote: > Hmm...good point. I was trying to get the dd stream non-interrupted > before sending it to gzip. How about this: > > gzip -1 `dd if=/dev/hda1 of=shuttlepod.hda1` So dd send data from disk to a file, then gzip is told to use the output of dd (number of i/o's done, etc) as command line. That won't do anything useful. Perhaps dd if=/dev/hda1 bs=100k | gzip -1 > result.image.gz Lennarh Sorensen -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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Windows refund: stymied
by linux-cOjNTMaGA5U＠public.gmane.org 29 Aug '03

29 Aug '03

On Fri, Aug 29, 2003 at 04:43:33PM -0400, Herb Richter wrote: > BTW, I see a very interesting situation here: if in fact the two > contracts are separate and the first cannot bind the buyer to agree to > the second; can the buyer end up with a "legal" instance of the OS without > being obligated by the eula? As far as I understand, this is never possible. You can do all the tricks you like to avoid agreeing to the EULA, but since that's the document which grants you the permission you need to *copy the software from the hard disk to the computer's memory*, you'd no longer be allowed to do that. *That's* the reason EULAs are so ridiculous: *using* computer software is considered *copying* it, and you need explicit permission to do so. Bundled with that permission, you get all manner of restrictions. <thinking mode="wishful"> If only copyright law were phrased in such a way that you could only infringe it in the case you were giving copies to other people... </thinking> But it's not. :-( - Ian -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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Windows refund: stymied
by hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA＠public.gmane.org 29 Aug '03

29 Aug '03

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003, Ian Goldberg wrote: > I spent all afternoon on the phone with Dell. It turns out the Windows > refund issue didn't even come up, because (get this), when you boot the > computer, you're presented with a *Dell* screen that forces you to say > you've read and agreed to all the EULAs for the software on the system. > > Trick is, they don't give them to you. > > No one at Dell seemed perplexed by this. I was being forced to say I've > read agreements I don't have. So we didn't even get to the bit where I > could point to the "refund" clause in the Windows EULA, since I was > never presented with it in the first place. > > The whole story: > > http://www.cypherpunks.ca/dell.html > > This is the next level above "click-through" licenses. Now, they figure > no one reads the EULAs anyway, so why bother even providing a copy? > They'll click "I've read and agreed" anyhow. I think another course will work / would have worked better... <IANAL> Depending on a few possible "gotchas"(1), and notwithstanding your "all afternoon on the phone with Dell", you should be better off taking the position that though you preferred not to have any windows on the machine, you decided that you that you might be able to utilize windows (ie with dual boot) and you really do *need* the computer running now(2), but upon viewing the windows eula you found terms that you could not agree to and that you then had to continue on and install Linux but with no working windows(3). This (probably) leaves the situation that you have a contract with Dell where they are obligated to supply a working computer but cannot without you agreeing to a second contract (the eula). Unless the original contract was clear that further terms and or conditions existed and that those terms and conditions were available for your perusal somewhere convienant *and* that they contained no unusual or unexpected terms(4), the terms of the eula would not form part of the first contract. Because "a contract to contract is not a contract", the first contract cannot require you enter into another future contract. The first contract (probably) existed and was binding upon both parties before the machine was actually received. (1) ...in your original conversation with the sales people and disclaimers or notices presented during the order process or on the final invoice (if displayed before you agreeded to complete the purchase). (2) assuming that it can be said that you were thinking this at the time. (3) your position would likely be better if Linux were not yet installed. (4) unless any unusual or unexpected terms were explained to you. </IANAL> As a business man I would now ask Dell how they intend to deliver a working computer? What provisions or policies do they have to deal with such a situation? Will they refund all your money plus compensation for your time and any other expenses and arrange for the pickup of the machine. Or will they agree to your offer to accept compensation for the value of the un-usable OS (windows) included in the purchase price? If not - I would think you would have a good shot in small claims court naming both Dell and MS as defendants. BTW, I see a very interesting situation here: if in fact the two contracts are separate and the first cannot bind the buyer to agree to the second; can the buyer end up with a "legal" instance of the OS without being obligated by the eula? -- Herb Richter <hgr-FjoMob2a1F7QT0dZR+AlfA at public.gmane.org> Toronto, Ontario http://PartsAndService.com http://PartsAndService.ca -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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Windows refund: stymied
by kmastin-PzQIwG9Jn9VAFePFGvp55w＠public.gmane.org 29 Aug '03

29 Aug '03

<snip> > > I really doubt they have an agreement with MS that says that they have > to get consumers to agree to the license before they have a chance to > see it. okay, I see. This is just about that first splash screen, not about the larger issues of unfair software bundling practices. I suspect that the 2 are inexplicitly linked, but I dunno how <snip> -- Keith Mastin BeechTree Information Technology Services Inc. Toronto, Canada (416)696 6070 -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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