December 2003 - Legacy - lists.gtalug.org

Waaaay offtopic
by james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA＠public.gmane.org 21 Dec '03

21 Dec '03

David J Patrick wrote: > >> Anybody interested in a new and "unproven" effective treatment for >> bacterial and viral disease? >> >> >> -Hugh > > > I used to humbug anything that didn't immediately make sense to me. > but I have had too many things like that "explained" after a long period > of disbelief. > I'm now quite agnostic but open. Our human understanding of the workings > of life are puny, at best. > We laugh at the ancient Romans for dining on lead plates, while sipping > water from clear plastic, which has been demonstrated to leach > surprising amounts of estrogen. Surviving humans, in the distant future, > will be slapping their knees recounting our follies. > They will simultaneously be doing something equally stupid. There certainly are things that are beyond our current knowledge, some of which may always be. However, to advance our knowledge, proper studies must be made, to verify the various theories. Just making an assumption and declaring it as fact, as some of the ancient Greeks did, accomplishes little. As for the alternative medicines, a study, just as all conventional medicines must go through would tell if they work or are "old wives tales". Undoubtably some natural remedies work, but many others don't. Only a proper trial can tell. Quoting someone's Aunt Martha, whose 2nd cousins neighbour doesn't do it. You cannot take any medication, including a flu shot and tell me next year that it prevented you getting the flu, because you simply don't know if you would have otherwise been afflicted. On the other hand, if you give those shots to 1000 people and compare the results with 1000 others who didn't get the shot, you can say with some confidence that the flu shot was or was not effective or hazardous. That is how to advance knowledge. You prove it. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

1 0

Waaaay offtopic
by davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg＠public.gmane.org 21 Dec '03

21 Dec '03

>>I think the practice you are slagging is actually "homeopathy". >>Yes, microdoses sound downright improbable, but I have to say that I >>have seen it used successfully countless times over the last 30 years. >>Just because we don't understand something doesn't always mean it's bogus. >> >> > >"Countless" I am sure. > > OK, so I didn't count 'em, how 'bout "many" ? >The _real_ effect may be that patients that drink a bunch of water do >better than those that are allowed to remain dehydrated. > >What we know is that the reasons for efficacity claimed by homeopaths >are at odds with any notion of common sense, particularly at the high >dilution levels. After a "100C"-like dilution, there are only a few >reasonable choices: > > - The water being added in contains some unidentified-by-practitioner > medicative agent; > > - Dehydration is the symptom being treated; > > - They are engaging in some form of "faith healing" where the > 'medicine' is merely the substrate to strengthen the recipient's > faith that something is happening to them. > > OR the our biology responds to extremely subtle agents beyond our current "scientific" understanding. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

1 0

Waaaay offtopic
by james.knott-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA＠public.gmane.org 21 Dec '03

21 Dec '03

David J Patrick wrote: > >> One person I'd never believe is a naturopathic "doctor". Naturopathy >> is based on a bogus belief that a tiny amount of something that causes >> the same symptoms as a disease will cure or prevent it. The problem >> is, that the doses generally prescribed are physically impossible. >> For example a common dilution of the "medicine" is 10X or divided with >> water or alcohol 10:1, 10 times. The problem with this amount of >> dilution, is that the number of molecules gets in the way. In order >> to consume one molecule of the substance, you'd have to drink several >> thousand gallons of water. They also have another dilution of 100C, >> which is 100:1 100 times, which is even more impossible. >> >> You might want to read "Voodoo Science" by Dr. Robert Park or "A Demon >> Haunted World", by Carl Sagan for further info. > > > I think the practice you are slagging is actually "homeopathy". > Yes, microdoses sound downright improbable, but I have to say that I > have seen it used successfully countless times over the last 30 years. > Just because we don't understand something doesn't always mean it's bogus. Yes, you were correct in my error about the term, and I corrected my self in another message. However, you say you've seen it work over the years. What proof do you have? Have you run studies that show it works? Or is your "proof" similar to what the other poster said about his "Zapper" preventing the flu? You cannot take individual cases in isolation as proof. You have to show it works when compared to other treatments or lack of treatment. As for homeopathy, at one point in time, it was very beneficial in that it kept people away from what was then conventional medicine, such as blood letting etc., which was often more harmful than helpful. As for the physically impossible minute doses, how does it benefit the patient, if they don't receive so much as a molecule of the substance? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

1 0

Waaaay offtopic
by davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg＠public.gmane.org 21 Dec '03

21 Dec '03

>Hugh, please, it's getting painful. I mean seriously: > >"Even though the only people who are losing bone calcium are those who >drink milk like water, they will defend their livelihood." > >Does that make *any* sense whatsoever to you? Do you really think the mind that >came up with that sentence is ever going to see your point of view? > > It's my (feeble) understanding that a) milk offers one of the least digestible forms of calcium b) when someone consumes way more protien than the body requires (see: drinks milk like water) the excess protien is discarded along with the needed calcium. Ya want calcium ? Eat spinach. djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

1 0

Waaaay offtopic
by cbbrowne-HInyCGIudOg＠public.gmane.org 21 Dec '03

21 Dec '03

> > > One person I'd never believe is a naturopathic "doctor". Naturopathy > > is based on a bogus belief that a tiny amount of something that causes > > the same symptoms as a disease will cure or prevent it. The problem > > is, that the doses generally prescribed are physically impossible. > > For example a common dilution of the "medicine" is 10X or divided with > > water or alcohol 10:1, 10 times. The problem with this amount of > > dilution, is that the number of molecules gets in the way. In order > > to consume one molecule of the substance, you'd have to drink several > > thousand gallons of water. They also have another dilution of 100C, > > which is 100:1 100 times, which is even more impossible. > > > > You might want to read "Voodoo Science" by Dr. Robert Park or "A Demon > > Haunted World", by Carl Sagan for further info. > > I think the practice you are slagging is actually "homeopathy". > Yes, microdoses sound downright improbable, but I have to say that I > have seen it used successfully countless times over the last 30 years. > Just because we don't understand something doesn't always mean it's bogus. "Countless" I am sure. The _real_ effect may be that patients that drink a bunch of water do better than those that are allowed to remain dehydrated. What we know is that the reasons for efficacity claimed by homeopaths are at odds with any notion of common sense, particularly at the high dilution levels. After a "100C"-like dilution, there are only a few reasonable choices: - The water being added in contains some unidentified-by-practitioner medicative agent; - Dehydration is the symptom being treated; - They are engaging in some form of "faith healing" where the 'medicine' is merely the substrate to strengthen the recipient's faith that something is happening to them. -- let name="cbbrowne" and tld="ntlug.org" in name ^ "@" ^ tld;; http://www.ntlug.org/~cbbrowne/sgml.html Why do they put Braille dots on the keypad of the drive-up ATM? -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

1 0

Waaaay offtopic
by davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg＠public.gmane.org 21 Dec '03

21 Dec '03

> Anybody interested in a new and "unproven" effective treatment for > bacterial and viral disease? > > > -Hugh I used to humbug anything that didn't immediately make sense to me. but I have had too many things like that "explained" after a long period of disbelief. I'm now quite agnostic but open. Our human understanding of the workings of life are puny, at best. We laugh at the ancient Romans for dining on lead plates, while sipping water from clear plastic, which has been demonstrated to leach surprising amounts of estrogen. Surviving humans, in the distant future, will be slapping their knees recounting our follies. They will simultaneously be doing something equally stupid. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

1 0

Waaaay offtopic
by davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg＠public.gmane.org 21 Dec '03

21 Dec '03

>Holy crap, all I wanted to do was give anyone else out there with the flu a "I >know how yer feelin'", I never thought it would come to this. > >Sorry, but I'm gonna hafta do it. > >*Hitler* caused AIDS. Muahahahahaha! > > So much for that bit of mailing list magic, Joe. maybe the updated spell is "Osama!" djp -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

1 0

Waaaay offtopic
by davidjpatrick-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg＠public.gmane.org 21 Dec '03

21 Dec '03

> One person I'd never believe is a naturopathic "doctor". Naturopathy > is based on a bogus belief that a tiny amount of something that causes > the same symptoms as a disease will cure or prevent it. The problem > is, that the doses generally prescribed are physically impossible. > For example a common dilution of the "medicine" is 10X or divided with > water or alcohol 10:1, 10 times. The problem with this amount of > dilution, is that the number of molecules gets in the way. In order > to consume one molecule of the substance, you'd have to drink several > thousand gallons of water. They also have another dilution of 100C, > which is 100:1 100 times, which is even more impossible. > > You might want to read "Voodoo Science" by Dr. Robert Park or "A Demon > Haunted World", by Carl Sagan for further info. I think the practice you are slagging is actually "homeopathy". Yes, microdoses sound downright improbable, but I have to say that I have seen it used successfully countless times over the last 30 years. Just because we don't understand something doesn't always mean it's bogus. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

1 0

media life (was Re:When will the persecution of MS *end*?!)
by henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg＠public.gmane.org 21 Dec '03

21 Dec '03

I wrote: > Brace yourself: the shelf life of a burned CD-R or CD-RW is likewise > uncertain... Oh yes, and I meant to add: and then there's the question of whether you will still have a *reader* for those media ten or twenty years from now. Eleven years ago, I had to make a point of specifying that my 3.5in floppy should be drive A on my new machine. Now, good luck trying to find a 5.25in floppy drive at all. And the days of 3.5in floppies are (finally) numbered, with USB flash drives likely to kill them soon. Another reason to regularly recopy something you want to save permanently is simply to get it onto modern media. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

1 0

media life (was Re:When will the persecution of MS *end*?!)
by henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg＠public.gmane.org 21 Dec '03

21 Dec '03

On Sun, 21 Dec 2003, Scott Allen wrote: > > That day is a long way off, but I guard the floppies that constitute > > the shred of hope that someday I'll get those files back ! > > If you haven't already, you would be wise to make duplicates of those > floppies, and also burn images of them to a CD-ROM. Floppies lose their > magnetism over time and thus have a shelf life of ~10-20 years. They > may no longer read when you get around to trying to use them... Brace yourself: the shelf life of a burned CD-R or CD-RW is likewise uncertain. The archival librarians don't consider even CDROMs (real factory-stamped ones, not user-burned disks) to be an archival-class medium, because of concerns about the longevity of some of the materials used in them. If you want to be sure you will always be able to read something, there is no substitute for making a fresh copy every 5-10 years. Henry Spencer henry-lqW1N6Cllo0sV2N9l4h3zg at public.gmane.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

1 0