A milestone more than 30 years in the making
Last night, in April of 2026, I achieved a milestone on my Linux system. I was able to scan a document and fax it. This may not sound like much, because I consider both scanning and faxing as hurdles that Linux and even Unix systems have had. divergent serial port wiring, divergent modem commands, archaic GUIs -- it was a nightmare. In a previous life I had to make Hylafax work with a USRobotics modem attached to one of the octopus cables coming out the back of a DIgiboard installed in an SCO Xenix rig. One of the worst jobs I've ever had, I'm surprised I even remember the equipment in this much detail so long after. The decline of the tech means the loss of many players, and that means there's pretty well just one standard for fax-modem hardware connections (USB A) and one for the modem commands (still the same old AT... commands). The units cost about $25 and are reliable. As for the Linux support... I always found SANE to be a nightmare and gave up a number of times trying to make it work over the years, but this week a simple package in the AUR set it up through CUPS on my CachyOS box and now it works great with KDE's Skanpage. As for faxing the scanned document, efax worked quite nicely and was simple to use. This may sound like a lot of noise about a dying technology, and in many ways it is. But my point here is that this is the kind of thing -- support for niche or specialty hardware and use cases -- in which Linux always lagged so far behind Windows. Now that I have it working, the Linux workflow is far superior to the *Window Fax and Scan* utility that looks like it hasn't been updated since Windows98. As for why some federal and provincial government agencies still require one to submit documents by either fax or snail mail, in 2026, don't get me started...) -- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56
On 4/5/26 22:32, Evan Leibovitch via Talk wrote:
Last night, in April of 2026, I achieved a milestone on my Linux system. I was able to scan a document and fax it.
I have frequently scanned a document in Linux into LibreOffice or OpenOffice. I had a Linux faxing app, but never used it. I used to fax back in the days when I ran OS/2, but didn't fax a lot. As for the government and others insisting on fax, they obviously don't know that it is insecure.
From: James Knott via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
On 4/5/26 22:32, Evan Leibovitch via Talk wrote:
Last night, in April of 2026, I achieved a milestone on my Linux system. I was able to scan a document and fax it.
Evan: thanks for your write-up.
I have frequently scanned a document in Linux into LibreOffice or OpenOffice. I had a Linux faxing app, but never used it. I used to fax back in the days when I ran OS/2, but didn't fax a lot.
Scanning on Linux is easy IF there is a driver for your scanner is in the SANE database. One problem is that some scanners have proprietary formats. In our house, we have several scanners: - two Fujitsu ScanSnap sheet-fed scanners. Supported. (I consulted with the driver author before buying the first.) - several Brother multi-function machines with scanners. These seem to be supported by open source drivers but I used Brother proprietary Linux drivers (that are kind of bundled with their printer drivers). - CZUR book scanners. No Linux driver. One was advertised as having Linux support, but it was for a particular edition of Ubuntu. This is a case where a SNAP or FlatPak would have been better. GNOME's "SimpleScan" is simple. All I need. The interface is OK except for selecting fiddly options. It discovers the connected scanners and lets you select amongst them. It can even shuffle the result of a document scanned twice through a single-sided scanner. As for FAXing, back in the day, I used HylaFAX (like Evan) for sending and receiving FAXes. This was on SunOS, then Solaris, and then Linux. I remember that each modem's capabilities were a little different and support took a bit of configuring, not always well documented. It was suitable for an enterprise, leading to more controls that you had to figure out. But it was solid. It could share a phone line with UUCP and CU. I think that the last time I had to send a FAX, I used Windows' built-in FAX software. Apparently it is not built into Windows 11 but you can install it.
As for the government and others insisting on fax, they obviously don't know that it is insecure.
Yeah. But I bet most crooks are too young to handle FAX. Medical info (eg. prescriptions) go between doctors and pharmacies via FAX!
On Mon, Apr 6, 2026 at 11:22 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via Talk < talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote: Scanning on Linux is easy IF there is a driver for your scanner is in the SANE
database. One problem is that some scanners have proprietary formats.
This, to me, was the second-scariest part of it (after having to wire RS-232 connector pinouts individually depending on modem brand, printer brand and serial-port board). Thankfully, for those of us still needing to export to and import from paper-based documents, there has been substantial if quiet progress that is very welcomed. Getting back into this world, I discovered that in scanning -- much like in printing -- there are way fewer diverging standards for communications to the devices than there used to be. Notably, I learned about the move of both SANE and CUPS to "driverless" support for scanners and printers respectively. Almost all scanning devices now support Apple's eSCL (AirScan) and/or Windows' WSD protocols, and as such have been trivially supported by SANE with minimal setup since 2020. This worked flawlessly for the scanner half of my Brother multifunction unit. (Hugh, I have a CZUR scanner too but haven't used it in ages. I'd be interested to know if their scanners can support either of the above protocols.) Similarly, the old PPD drivers for CUPS have been deprecated since 2019 in favour of "driverless" printing for any device that supports AirPrint or IPP. Unless you need a device feature unsupported by these protocols, both SANE and CUPS strongly recommend installing (or switching to) driverless devices. The need for vendor-specific drivers is vastly reduced; companies like Lexmark and Canon which used to play stupid driver games which rendered them Linux-hostile, have fallen into line and are thus as well supported now as Brother (which has always been Linux-friendly). This may be old news to some, but new to me since I haven't looked at any of this for at least a decade. All this progress.... just as the need for such devices is on the wane. Better late than never I guess. - Evan
On Mon, Apr 06, 2026 at 04:03:30PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch via Talk wrote:
Thankfully, for those of us still needing to export to and import from paper-based documents, there has been substantial if quiet progress that is very welcomed. Getting back into this world, I discovered that in scanning -- much like in printing -- there are way fewer diverging standards for communications to the devices than there used to be. Notably, I learned about the move of both SANE and CUPS to "driverless" support for scanners and printers respectively.
Almost all scanning devices now support Apple's eSCL (AirScan) and/or Windows' WSD protocols, and as such have been trivially supported by SANE with minimal setup since 2020. This worked flawlessly for the scanner half of my Brother multifunction unit. (Hugh, I have a CZUR scanner too but haven't used it in ages. I'd be interested to know if their scanners can support either of the above protocols.)
Similarly, the old PPD drivers for CUPS have been deprecated since 2019 in favour of "driverless" printing for any device that supports AirPrint or IPP. Unless you need a device feature unsupported by these protocols, both SANE and CUPS strongly recommend installing (or switching to) driverless devices. The need for vendor-specific drivers is vastly reduced; companies like Lexmark and Canon which used to play stupid driver games which rendered them Linux-hostile, have fallen into line and are thus as well supported now as Brother (which has always been Linux-friendly).
This may be old news to some, but new to me since I haven't looked at any of this for at least a decade. All this progress.... just as the need for such devices is on the wane. Better late than never I guess.
I do like the modern printer design where drivers are not usually needed. I recently needed to print something, but my laptop is in for repair, so I thought "can I print a pdf from my phone?". Sure enough, phone sees printer on the network and out comes the document. -- Len Sorensen
On Sun, Apr 05, 2026 at 10:32:14PM -0400, Evan Leibovitch via Talk wrote:
Last night, in April of 2026, I achieved a milestone on my Linux system. I was able to scan a document and fax it.
This may not sound like much, because I consider both scanning and faxing as hurdles that Linux and even Unix systems have had. divergent serial port wiring, divergent modem commands, archaic GUIs -- it was a nightmare.
In a previous life I had to make Hylafax work with a USRobotics modem attached to one of the octopus cables coming out the back of a DIgiboard installed in an SCO Xenix rig. One of the worst jobs I've ever had, I'm surprised I even remember the equipment in this much detail so long after.
The decline of the tech means the loss of many players, and that means there's pretty well just one standard for fax-modem hardware connections (USB A) and one for the modem commands (still the same old AT... commands). The units cost about $25 and are reliable. As for the Linux support... I always found SANE to be a nightmare and gave up a number of times trying to make it work over the years, but this week a simple package in the AUR set it up through CUPS on my CachyOS box and now it works great with KDE's Skanpage. As for faxing the scanned document, efax worked quite nicely and was simple to use.
This may sound like a lot of noise about a dying technology, and in many ways it is. But my point here is that this is the kind of thing -- support for niche or specialty hardware and use cases -- in which Linux always lagged so far behind Windows. Now that I have it working, the Linux workflow is far superior to the *Window Fax and Scan* utility that looks like it hasn't been updated since Windows98.
As for why some federal and provincial government agencies still require one to submit documents by either fax or snail mail, in 2026, don't get me started...)
I think I sent a fax from software in windows in the late 90s just to see if I could. I think it has been quite a long time since I had to send any fax, although come to think of it, if I had to, I think my printer has a phone jack on it and can send faxes, and it is only about 3m away from a phone jack. I guess it might work if I ever needed it to. I do also have a V.Everything around here somewhere and a USB to serial adapter. I guess that might work too. I hope I never have to find out. -- Len Sorensen
I have never had trouble with basic scanning from Linux. Once I could not use sheet feed, or maybe that was not till i found a scanner program that supported it. Windows had the convenience (years ago) that it could be set up so pressing a button on the scanner invoked the scan, much easier if each page needs to be set up, like small loose items or a book where you have to press the cover plate down to keep the page in focus. If anybody knows of a program for Linux, or a brand of printer/scanner where you can press a button on the scanner for each page, please post. Probably won't go buy a printer now, but could affect my next purchase, if there is one, in a year or five. Recently (2-3 years) bought two inkjets (one eco-tank, one 11x17), so not likely unless there is an expensive laser, and maybe only a color laser i can afford... Carey
On Sun, 5 Apr 2026 22:32:14 -0400 Evan Leibovitch via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
Last night, in April of 2026, I achieved a milestone on my Linux system. I was able to scan a document and fax it.
Evan, Way back in the antediluvian past, I paused banging rocks with other rocks to send faxes from my GNU/Linux box. I generated a PostScript file from OpenOffice, then I used the command line tool efax to send it. Efax is still installed on my system, but it has been at least twenty years since I have used it. If you have an Epson scanner, you can locate and download "iscan". This is Open Source, rather than Free, but it is user friendly, and integrated with GIMP. If you are scanning documents into PDF, look for "simple-scan". I believe it is part of a Fedora installation, and it works very nicely. -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
Can "efax" dial out via VOIP account? Is it still using modem? I moved my line number to VoIP.ms, and I'm using their "soft phone" (running on my Android phone) to dial out or receive calls. I don't have ATA anymore, so can't dial out via analog. On 2026-04-05 22:32, Evan Leibovitch via Talk wrote:
As for faxing the scanned document, efax worked quite nicely and was simple to use.
On Mon, 6 Apr 2026 19:13:43 -0400 William Park via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
Can "efax" dial out via VOIP account? Is it still using modem?
William, I still have a landline. You would have to look at the configuration files. Definitely, it uses modem commands. -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
I've never had a problem with the simple Document Scanner from Canonical - recognizes my Brother MFP right away. I can combine multiple pages into a single pdf. It saves to jpeg and png too. As for faxing, as I dont have a landline anymore, I cant fax using the printer which does have faxing capability. But recently I've had to fax some docs to my insurance provider - they wouldnt accept it unless I faxed it to them, and regular mail I would have missed their deadline. So off to Staples I went. I cant believe faxing is still a thing.
I'm guessing "faxing is a thing" because some law requires it and has not been updated. 1. you can likely go to your local public library and fax documents for free (i have done this). You may be able to do this from home, but that will require a library card, I am sure. 2. there are online services: Several free online fax services allow users to upload documents and send faxes without a physical machine, though most impose limits on pages or require ads. FaxZero offers five free faxes per day (up to three pages each) to the US, Canada, and select international destinations, but adds ads to the cover page and does not support receiving faxes. GotFreeFax provides two free faxes daily (up to three pages each) without ads, limited to US and Canada. Fax.Plus grants 10 free pages upon signup for sending and receiving, supporting over 180 countries. Dropbox Fax (formerly HelloFax) gives five free pages on signup, with an option to earn 15 more by syncing contacts, and allows sending from cloud storage. eFax offers a 7-day free trial with a local or toll-free fax number, allowing up to 150 documents during the trial period. iFax provides a 3-day free trial of its Pro Plan for advanced features. FaxBurner allows sending free faxes with specific page limits on its mobile and web platforms. Most free tiers lack receiving capabilities or include branding, requiring payment for full functionality. Carey
On 04/06/2026 8:34 PM CDT Sam K via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
I've never had a problem with the simple Document Scanner from Canonical - recognizes my Brother MFP right away. I can combine multiple pages into a single pdf. It saves to jpeg and png too.
As for faxing, as I dont have a landline anymore, I cant fax using the printer which does have faxing capability. But recently I've had to fax some docs to my insurance provider - they wouldnt accept it unless I faxed it to them, and regular mail I would have missed their deadline. So off to Staples I went. I cant believe faxing is still a thing. ------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/3QG2RQO...
On Tue, Apr 7, 2026 at 5:54 AM CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote: I'm guessing "faxing is a thing" because some law requires it and has not
been updated.
More likely internal policy than law.
1. you can likely go to your local public library and fax documents for free (i have done this). You may be able to do this from home, but that will require a library card, I am sure.
2. there are online services: [...]
These services have always been around. But putting aside all of the security(*) and "don't want my personal communications with the government known by anyone else, let alone sold to data brokers or scraped by AI " issues, calling attention to them misses the main point of my message: Desktop Linux continues to make strides in its catching up to Windows functionality, especially regarding support for uncommon-but-necessary hardware and workflows. Some of this is because of improving Linux driver support. Some is because of consolidation around standard protocols, so fewer (or no) specialized drivers are needed at all. But the end result is the same; as time passes there are ever-fewer complaints about "only Windows can do *this*" - Evan (*) Yes, I know, fax is an inherently insecure, unencrypted way to transmit anything. But inserting third parties into the path to forward my data just makes it way worse,
On Tue, 7 Apr 2026 11:25:20 -0400 Evan Leibovitch via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
On Tue, Apr 7, 2026 at 5:54 AM CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
I'm guessing "faxing is a thing" because some law requires it and has not
been updated.
Evan, Hospitals and physicians like faxes. -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
On Tue, 7 Apr 2026 12:43:51 -0400 James Knott via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
On 4/7/26 12:25, Howard Gibson via Talk wrote:
Hospitals and physicians like faxes.
Real technical experts! 😉
I've spent most of my career in telecom and can assure you faxes are not secure
James, Okay, so they are wrong. -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
On 2026-04-07 12:43, James Knott via Talk wrote:
On 4/7/26 12:25, Howard Gibson via Talk wrote:
Hospitals and physicians like faxes.
Real technical experts! 😉
I've spent most of my career in telecom and can assure you faxes are not secure
First off airtight security is not always worth the effort. Hospitals, physicians and places like drug-stores tend to have relationships with the people sending the faxes so a request for 500KG of Oxycontin is likely to raise more than a few red flags. Your doctor sending a request for a years supply of blood pressure meds is not the kind of thing that the KGB or PLA is likely to want to spend time on to hack a phone line. Real or virtual. There are some advantages to paper. It provides a record. It can be easily passed around and clipped to a file or chart. It can be annotated with things as simple as a pencil or pen. -- Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || home: (905)513-7688 alvin@netvel.net ||
On 4/7/26 15:13, Alvin Starr via Talk wrote:
There are some advantages to paper. It provides a record. It can be easily passed around and clipped to a file or chart. It can be annotated with things as simple as a pencil or pen.
There was an article in the Toronto Star about how the legal profession is choking on paper and an electronic system was supposed to clear that up. Further, hospitals, etc. use electronic means now. So, that piece of paper now has to be scanned into the system. I guess you missed a recent episode of "The Pitt" where the computer system was shut down.
What fraction of organizations requiring faxes are creating and storing paper? I'm willing to lay long odds 99+% of them are capturing to computer files. And 98+% in the cloud. AI won't give a number, but seems to be lower, the best I could get was: Based on the search results, it is not possible to make a precise estimate of the fraction of organizations that store incoming faxes digitally versus printing them by comparing the sales, capacity, and speed of fax machines and fax servers. However, the data reveals a strong trend toward digital adoption, which allows for an informed qualitative assessment. Key findings from the search results indicate: * Digital Shift: The market for fax server software is growing rapidly, projected to reach $12.32 billion by 2030 with a CAGR of 12.75%. In contrast, the traditional fax machine market is either declining (CAGR of -5% projected) or growing very slowly (CAGR of 3.6%). * Cloud Dominance: Cloud-based fax solutions are the fastest-growing segment, accounting for 60% of the fax server software market share in 2023. These services inherently store faxes as digital files (e.g., PDFs in email or cloud storage). * Enterprise Adoption: A significant portion of enterprises are moving away from paper. One report states that around 38% of enterprises have already moved to digital fax infrastructure, and 42% are investing in hybrid cloud solutions, both of which prioritize digital storage. * Industry Drivers: Highly regulated industries like healthcare and finance are major drivers of this shift, as digital fax solutions provide the secure, auditable, and compliant document trails they require. Carey
On 04/07/2026 2:13 PM CDT Alvin Starr via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2026-04-07 12:43, James Knott via Talk wrote:
On 4/7/26 12:25, Howard Gibson via Talk wrote:
Hospitals and physicians like faxes.
Real technical experts! 😉
I've spent most of my career in telecom and can assure you faxes are not secure
First off airtight security is not always worth the effort.
Hospitals, physicians and places like drug-stores tend to have relationships with the people sending the faxes so a request for 500KG of Oxycontin is likely to raise more than a few red flags. Your doctor sending a request for a years supply of blood pressure meds is not the kind of thing that the KGB or PLA is likely to want to spend time on to hack a phone line. Real or virtual.
There are some advantages to paper. It provides a record. It can be easily passed around and clipped to a file or chart. It can be annotated with things as simple as a pencil or pen.
-- Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || home: (905)513-7688 alvin@netvel.net mailto:alvin@netvel.net ||
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On Tue, Apr 7, 2026 at 11:25 AM Howard Gibson via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
On Tue, 7 Apr 2026 11:25:20 -0400 Evan Leibovitch via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
On Tue, Apr 7, 2026 at 5:54 AM CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
I'm guessing "faxing is a thing" because some law requires it and has not
been updated.
Evan,
Hospitals and physicians like faxes.
Well any time on must have a proven paper trail - - - fax works - - - email does NOT. regards
On Tue, Apr 7, 2026, 20:23 o1bigtenor via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote: Well any time on must have a proven paper trail - - - fax works - - - email
does NOT.
I personally know of instances where such a blanket assertion is provably incorrect. This is simply a matter of inertia. Fax works well enough, and -- especially in bureaucratic processes -- sometimes there's simply no incentive to upgrade. Flexibility is on the side of digital. One can easily print any email. But doing OCR on most faxes can be challenging. It's also more private, usually easier to direct an email to a single person than to direct a printed fax sent to a departmental machine. However, unquestionably, laziness is on the side of fax, and that can often matter a lot. Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56
From: Evan Leibovitch via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
On Tue, Apr 7, 2026 at 5:54 AM CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
I'm guessing "faxing is a thing" because some law requires it and has not
been updated.
More likely internal policy than law.
My impression is that 1) FAX became custom. Part of that is convincing lawyers not to resist. Lawyers seem to accept security theatre when convenient. How many email footers say, in effect, "if you are not the intended recipient, stop reading, from the top of the page." Silly. They gave in on FAXes generations ago. 2) it is hard to come up with a generic, secure, entity-to-entity messaging system. I know that when I talk to lawyers, I try to set up such a system but it costs time and money and frustration. Such systems tend to stumble on authentication. Cryptography is a solved problem (if you aren't scared of quantum attacks). Authentication can come down to an identity scheme. What one? How to verify? Does it make sense to the users? FAX uses phone numbers as identity (and blind trust). Maybe this is something Estonia has solved with its digital ID system. But you need to authenticate roles, not just individuals. I guess X.509 certs could do the job but they seem to complicated, unwieldy, and expensive for individuals.
Late to the party and slightly OT, but I feel compelled to update a library-related comment (recent TPL employee here): On Tue, 7 Apr 2026 at 05:54, CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
1. you can likely go to your local public library and fax documents for free (i have done this). You may be able to do this from home, but that will require a library card, I am sure.
You haven't done it in Toronto - or if you have, the staff were helping you above and beyond the call of duty. Most Toronto Public Library branches don't have fax machines, and none of them offer fax-as-a-service. Nor do their websites. Perhaps they should - but that's another question entirely. -- Giles https://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com
My AI searches have confirmed Giles' comment about no public faxing at TPL. The only physical (as opposed to online) free faxing it could find in the area is the U of T Arts & Sciences Student Union making such service for students only (but alumni could probably plead a case). - Evan On Mon, Apr 20, 2026 at 10:17 AM Giles Orr via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
Late to the party and slightly OT, but I feel compelled to update a library-related comment (recent TPL employee here):
On Tue, 7 Apr 2026 at 05:54, CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
1. you can likely go to your local public library and fax documents for free (i have done this). You may be able to do this from home, but that will require a library card, I am sure.
You haven't done it in Toronto - or if you have, the staff were helping you above and beyond the call of duty. Most Toronto Public Library branches don't have fax machines, and none of them offer fax-as-a-service. Nor do their websites. Perhaps they should - but that's another question entirely.
-- Giles https://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com ------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/RM3SKRB...
-- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56
From: Giles Orr via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
On Tue, 7 Apr 2026 at 05:54, CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
1. you can likely go to your local public library and fax documents for free (i have done this). You may be able to do this from home, but that will require a library card, I am sure.
You haven't done it in Toronto - or if you have, the staff were helping you above and beyond the call of duty.
Carey is in the US. It's great that he participates in GTALUG, but some of his experiences will not carry over to Toronto. If I were to guess, each library system might be different. Certainly the TPL tries to innovate to become more relevant. At this point, FAX service might not be innovation. I remember when Xeroxing was new and expensive. In 1967 or 1968 I used a copier at the old TPL Central Reference Library at College and St. George. I paid something like $0.25 a page! Real money then. It was some chemically thing, not Xerox. (I now have that book from which I copied a paper. You can too <https://archive.org/details/programmingsyste0000saul>)
Curious about other Canadian cities, as well as other US cities, if people will speak up. I believe the suburban libraries in my area (Chicago) are all creating maker labs, with a wide array of devices, down to button makers. The Chicago public library has a BIG one (IIRC think that was even before covid), not sure if the branch libraries do. My library also has "build family history" kits and other things I don't recall, that can be checked out. I remember when a copier was a large device, you took a sheet of paper out of a light tight drawer and put it over your original on top, turned on a bright light for multiple seconds, then put that sheet in a liquid in the bottom for some time, then through wringers and heat to dry it out. I was a kid, doing volunteer work in the local alderman's office, just watched, never actually did it. Carey
On 04/20/2026 1:44 PM CDT D. Hugh Redelmeier via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
From: Giles Orr via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
On Tue, 7 Apr 2026 at 05:54, CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
1. you can likely go to your local public library and fax documents for free (i have done this). You may be able to do this from home, but that will require a library card, I am sure.
You haven't done it in Toronto - or if you have, the staff were helping you above and beyond the call of duty.
Carey is in the US. It's great that he participates in GTALUG, but some of his experiences will not carry over to Toronto.
If I were to guess, each library system might be different. Certainly the TPL tries to innovate to become more relevant. At this point, FAX service might not be innovation.
I remember when Xeroxing was new and expensive. In 1967 or 1968 I used a copier at the old TPL Central Reference Library at College and St. George. I paid something like $0.25 a page! Real money then. It was some chemically thing, not Xerox. (I now have that book from which I copied a paper. You can too <https://archive.org/details/programmingsyste0000saul>) ------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/I3CDEXI...
TPL has ~100 branches, and 13 "Digital Innovation Hubs" - which resemble a maker space. Those spaces have 3D printers, and computers with software that isn't on the standard library computers including Adobe Creative Cloud 2023, Final Cut Pro, Logic Pro, Autodesk Fusion 360, and DaVinci Resolve. They also have one "Creation Loft" at North York Central Library, which has sewing machines, an embroidery machine, a vinyl printer, and a tshirt press. The Creation Loft has been enough of a success that the new St. Lawrence branch (to open in 2028 or 2029?) will have a Creation Loft as well. Since button makers were mentioned ... I know the Creation Loft has one, and some of the Teen Zones have them but the Teen Zone ones may only come out for programs while the Creation Loft one is bookable for patrons. TPL has also started a big program to educate the public on using AI. Ironically, the best easily accessible explanation doesn't come from their site: https://www.urbanlibraries.org/innovations/ai-upskilling-initiative . I have a lot of problems with AI and wish they weren't rushing headlong into it, but I don't make the calls and whether I like it or not, AI is "important." <sigh> On Mon, 20 Apr 2026 at 19:53, CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
Curious about other Canadian cities, as well as other US cities, if people will speak up.
I believe the suburban libraries in my area (Chicago) are all creating maker labs, with a wide array of devices, down to button makers. The Chicago public library has a BIG one (IIRC think that was even before covid), not sure if the branch libraries do. My library also has "build family history" kits and other things I don't recall, that can be checked out.
I remember when a copier was a large device, you took a sheet of paper out of a light tight drawer and put it over your original on top, turned on a bright light for multiple seconds, then put that sheet in a liquid in the bottom for some time, then through wringers and heat to dry it out. I was a kid, doing volunteer work in the local alderman's office, just watched, never actually did it.
Carey
On 04/20/2026 1:44 PM CDT D. Hugh Redelmeier via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
From: Giles Orr via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
On Tue, 7 Apr 2026 at 05:54, CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
1. you can likely go to your local public library and fax documents for free (i have done this). You may be able to do this from home, but that will require a library card, I am sure.
You haven't done it in Toronto - or if you have, the staff were helping you above and beyond the call of duty.
Carey is in the US. It's great that he participates in GTALUG, but some of his experiences will not carry over to Toronto.
If I were to guess, each library system might be different. Certainly the TPL tries to innovate to become more relevant. At this point, FAX service might not be innovation.
I remember when Xeroxing was new and expensive. In 1967 or 1968 I used a copier at the old TPL Central Reference Library at College and St. George. I paid something like $0.25 a page! Real money then. It was some chemically thing, not Xerox. (I now have that book from which I copied a paper. You can too <https://archive.org/details/programmingsyste0000saul>)
-- Giles https://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com
On Mon, 20 Apr 2026 18:52:48 -0500 (CDT) CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
I remember when a copier was a large device, you took a sheet of paper out of a light tight drawer and put it over your original on top, turned on a bright light for multiple seconds, then put that sheet in a liquid in the bottom for some time, then through wringers and heat to dry it out. I was a kid, doing volunteer work in the local alderman's office, just watched, never actually did it.
Carey
Corey, I am old mechanical designer. I spent fifteen years on drafting boards, and I happily remember Diazo whiteprinters, often mistakenly called blueprint machines. The output was blue lines on white paper. We drafted and plotted on translucent media, typically drafting vellum or mylar. I don't mind the smell of ammonia. This is now classified as a dangerous material not allowed in offices. The transition in my world is that we have to stop using large drawing formats like E-size (34x44"). This solves drafting board problems, not CAD/printer problems. Offices can print A-size (8.5x11") and B-size (11x17"). We need to switch from 1/8" or 3mm lettering to 2mm and 2.5mm lettering on the A-size and B-size prints, respectively. -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
On Tue, Apr 21, 2026 at 01:30:31PM -0400, Howard Gibson via Talk wrote:
I am old mechanical designer. I spent fifteen years on drafting boards, and I happily remember Diazo whiteprinters, often mistakenly called blueprint machines. The output was blue lines on white paper. We drafted and plotted on translucent media, typically drafting vellum or mylar. I don't mind the smell of ammonia. This is now classified as a dangerous material not allowed in offices.
The transition in my world is that we have to stop using large drawing formats like E-size (34x44"). This solves drafting board problems, not CAD/printer problems. Offices can print A-size (8.5x11") and B-size (11x17"). We need to switch from 1/8" or 3mm lettering to 2mm and 2.5mm lettering on the A-size and B-size prints, respectively.
There are still people printing E size drawings. We have printers for such things. My dad has an Epson T5475 which does E size. They make larger ones that even do 44" wide, including some that are also scanners and hence copiers like the T7770DM. So those can do F size. -- Len Sorensen
D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > > From: Giles Orr via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> > > > On Tue, 7 Apr 2026 at 05:54, CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote: > > 1. you can likely go to your local public library and fax documents for free (i have done this). You may be able to do this from home, but that will require a library card, I am sure. > > You haven't done it in Toronto - or if you have, the staff were > > helping you above and beyond the call of duty. > > Carey is in the US. It's great that he participates in GTALUG, but > some of his experiences will not carry over to Toronto. > > If I were to guess, each library system might be different. Certainly the > TPL tries to innovate to become more relevant. At this point, FAX service > might not be innovation. > > I remember when Xeroxing was new and expensive. In 1967 or 1968 I used a > copier at the old TPL Central Reference Library at College and St. George. > I paid something like $0.25 a page! Real money then. It was some > chemically thing, not Xerox. (I now have that book from which I copied a > paper. You can too <https://archive.org/details/programmingsyste0000saul>) Hugh, was this copy purple in colour and smelled of vinegar? or was it nail polish?
From: Sam K via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
I remember when Xeroxing was new and expensive. In 1967 or 1968 I used a copier at the old TPL Central Reference Library at College and St. George. I paid something like $0.25 a page! Real money then. It was some chemically thing, not Xerox. (I now have that book from which I copied a paper. You can too <https://archive.org/details/programmingsyste0000saul>)
Hugh, was this copy purple in colour and smelled of vinegar? or was it nail polish?
It was a long time ago. My memory of it is fuzzy. The topic of the paper was an example compiler written in LISP, including the code. This intrigued my Grade 12 imagination. I aimed to write an Algol 60 compiler for the IBM 1710 that was across St. George, in the Galbraith building (I was using that computer, eventually with tacit approval). GTALUG meatings were in that building for many years. Purple makes me think of mimeograph and methyl alcohol, but that required a "stencil", so that cannot be what you are refering to. The copy was grey with perhaps a bit of brown, if I remember correctly. Given the two choices of smell you listed, I'm inclined to pick vinegar.
purple (usually) was ditto. Like carbon paper on steroids. you typed on a master and the upwards facing "carbon paper"* put a thick amount of ink on the other side of the sheet you typed on. Put that on a rotating drum, picking up the spirit (alcohol) and it would transfer a little bit to the sheet of paper then smooshed (technical term) against it. One master was good for maybe 100 copies. you might push to 200 but they would be hard to read and you had to set the machine to use less fluid. Best for under 50, like one class in school. One could find masters in other colors, though they were rare, I never saw them used except by math teachers to copy graphs with multiple colors. Or maybe just for a title like to get attention. You would create the document in the main color, then go back and use a new bottom to add the other colors. you could print a few, save the master, print a few more, etc, with no problems. mimeograph machines, that we called stencils, were something feeling like wax paper, you removed the ribbon from your typewriter and typed onto the master. I just learned that I/we mistakenly called ditto machines mimeograph. place the master on a drum with an ink feed and smoosh it against the target sheets, the ink would go through where your typewriter removed the waxy coating. Typically after 500-1000 copies the master would start deteriorating, like the white area inside an "o" or "R" would come off making a larger black spot. If you only made a few, you might be able to remove the master from the drum, save it against something that would get very inky and used it a second time. ---------------------- *carbon paper (I wonder if I have to explain this?): like tissue paper with a thin coating of dry ink on one side. Place, ink side down, between two sheets of plain paper, and whatever you write (with a pen) or type will make a second copy on the second sheet of paper. Computers could print on at least "6-up" with the original getting ink from the computer printer's ribbon and 5 more copies from carbon paper. separate, offline machines separated the carbons from the copies on a continuous basis, one box at a time. then there was NCR "no carbon required". two sheets of paper, the first had a chemical on the bottom that when smooshed onto the chemical on the top of the second sheet brought out an ink-like color. I still use checkbooks like this. I remove the check before I sign it so there will not be a copy of my signature, not even a physical impression. the copier i referenced before was called photostat, and I had forgotten the copy was a negative.under it Carey
On 04/21/2026 9:38 AM CDT D. Hugh Redelmeier via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
From: Sam K via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
I remember when Xeroxing was new and expensive. In 1967 or 1968 I used a copier at the old TPL Central Reference Library at College and St. George. I paid something like $0.25 a page! Real money then. It was some chemically thing, not Xerox. (I now have that book from which I copied a paper. You can too <https://archive.org/details/programmingsyste0000saul>)
Hugh, was this copy purple in colour and smelled of vinegar? or was it nail polish?
It was a long time ago. My memory of it is fuzzy. The topic of the paper was an example compiler written in LISP, including the code. This intrigued my Grade 12 imagination. I aimed to write an Algol 60 compiler for the IBM 1710 that was across St. George, in the Galbraith building (I was using that computer, eventually with tacit approval). GTALUG meatings were in that building for many years.
Purple makes me think of mimeograph and methyl alcohol, but that required a "stencil", so that cannot be what you are refering to.
The copy was grey with perhaps a bit of brown, if I remember correctly.
Given the two choices of smell you listed, I'm inclined to pick vinegar. ------------------
Sam K via Talk said on Tue, 21 Apr 2026 10:18:01 -0000
D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
I remember when Xeroxing was new and expensive. In 1967 or 1968 I used a copier at the old TPL Central Reference Library at College and St. George. I paid something like $0.25 a page! Real money then. It was some chemically thing, not Xerox. (I now have that book from which I copied a paper. You can too <https://archive.org/details/programmingsyste0000saul>)
Hugh, was this copy purple in colour and smelled of vinegar? or was it nail polish?
As an elementary school kid in the late 1950's, teachers passed out those purple printed papers all the time. As I remember, they smelled neither like vinegar or nail polish, but instead had this wonderful industrial smell such that every kid would sit there sniffing his paper. SteveT Steve Litt http://444domains.com
On Tue, 21 Apr 2026 21:26:16 -0400 Steve Litt via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
Sam K via Talk said on Tue, 21 Apr 2026 10:18:01 -0000
Hugh, was this copy purple in colour and smelled of vinegar? or was it nail polish?
As an elementary school kid in the late 1950's, teachers passed out those purple printed papers all the time. As I remember, they smelled neither like vinegar or nail polish, but instead had this wonderful industrial smell such that every kid would sit there sniffing his paper.
SteveT
SteveT, I recall Gestetner copiers. I recall typing on the special papers, and engraving drawings. I recall the smell, but it was distinctive at the time. -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
On 4/21/26 23:57, Howard Gibson via Talk wrote:
I recall Gestetner copiers. I recall typing on the special papers, and engraving drawings. I recall the smell, but it was distinctive at the time.
Gestetner was different from that purple stuff. The purple stuff was used for cheap copies and Gestetner was used for better quality ones. My school used both, depending on the purpose. Gestetner used a stencil and ink. The purple stuff was also called spirit duplicator, IIRC. Also I used to have a Gestetner machine, given to me by an uncle who owned a printing shop.
On Wed, 22 Apr 2026 at 10:08, James Knott via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
Gestetner used a stencil and ink.
Gestetner was a specific, high quality brand of a mimeograph. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mimeograph
The purple stuff was also called spirit duplicator, IIRC.
The best-known manufacturer of spirit duplicators, especially in North America, was Ditto, thus also known as Ditto machines, which is what I remember them being called in my schools. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirit_duplicator -- Scott
On 2026-04-06 19:13, William Park via Talk wrote:
Can "efax" dial out via VOIP account? Is it still using modem?
I moved my line number to VoIP.ms, and I'm using their "soft phone" (running on my Android phone) to dial out or receive calls. I don't have ATA anymore, so can't dial out via analog.
Voip.ms has a Virtual fax feature. I tested it out a number of years ago for a project that did not go anywhere but it did work. I could take stuff destined for a print queue and push it out through a fax DID.
On 2026-04-05 22:32, Evan Leibovitch via Talk wrote:
As for faxing the scanned document, efax worked quite nicely and was simple to use.
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-- Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || home: (905)513-7688 alvin@netvel.net ||
participants (13)
-
Alvin Starr -
CAREY SCHUG -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Evan Leibovitch -
Giles Orr -
Howard Gibson -
James Knott -
Lennart Sorensen -
o1bigtenor -
Sam K -
Scott Allen -
Steve Litt -
William Park