Greetings (Can't see where to trim the previous so leaving intact!) I've been running ergonomic keyboards now for some almost 25 years. I've looked at the Kenisis boards but would want to try one before putting down a LOT of $$$. found a Canadian company that looked to have a great product but it was some $370 and they wanted $USD as well which just cancelled that idea. I'm about 2' across the shoulders so the small typewriter like keyboard is just not a long term option for me. Was a 75 wpm typist back in the day and still am not slow (find a lot of websites think I'm a bot - - - I read and respond just too fast to be human I guess). Personally would love to find an ergo version of the keyboards Evan mentioned. A future GTAtalk - - - that would be wonderful - - - especially if there were pointers to finding lower cost great ones. Ciao On Sat, Jun 13, 2026 at 3:13 PM Jason Shaw via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:

I didn't go quite as inexpensive for my daily driver keyboard, but my employer at the time gave us a hearty home office budget which I took full advantage of.

I have the Kinesis Freestyle Pro (https://kinesis-ergo.com/freestyle-pro-getting-started/#layout) that appears no longer available. I chose Cherry Mx Quiet Red switches. They have a softer feel than the really clicky switches but provide enough tactile feedback for decent touch typing.

Having a split and tented keyboard has fine wonders for my posture. As a broad dude, using smaller KBs caused my arms to come in across my body, which also lead to me hunching. Now my arms are aligned with my shoulders and basically perpendicular to my body, so no more hunching.

Another benefit has been that my touch typing has improved and I can no longer cross the streams by typing t or y with the "wrong" fingers.

6 years of use and I cannot stand to use my laptop kb and tend to travel with it as a result.

If I had infinite money though, I'd go for an Ultimate Hacking Keyboard (https://uhk.io/)with the trackball attachment.

I'd also like to try out one of the columnar layouts but can't really justify buying another kb.

To bring this back, thanks for pointing out these affordable options. I'm sure they make for great keyboards especially for showing younger folks what typing can feel like instead of screens or crappy laptop keys.

-jason

On Sat, Jun 13, 2026, 15:17 Evan Leibovitch via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:

...

Hi all,

I don't know if this is of interest to anyone but myself, but I thought it might be worth mentioning. Since the keyboard is something we interact with all the time -- more than any individual piece of software -- it seems that having the most comfortable and useful one is worthy of some effort.

For the longest time it seems that you had to go to one of two extremes

Mushy, low-travel keys that are a seeming necessity in laptops but also seem to predominate among the low-value, plasticky stock that ships with most desktops. Relatively light, built mostly out of thin plastic. Quite inexpensive and easy to find, for all I know Dollarama may have one. (Even if they do, don't get it.)

Loud, clacky, spring-resistant, built like tanks -- the kind I grew up with (evolved from the IBM Model M that is still being produced today) that became the early mainstay of gamers and power users. They were big, heavy and expensive, but very reliable -- the Cooler Master QuickFire unit that I've been using is old enough to have shipped with a PS/2 adapter. Mostly found in computer retailers and expensive (>$125).

But over the last year or two I've been seeing a whole new crop of keyboards that challenge the feel, build quality and even layouts of the tried and true; certainly they change the value proposal. I've bought two and switched to one as my daily driver.

These new keyboards have many common characteristics:

Decent build quality Less than C$100, sometimes way less Online from Amazon or Aliexpress, sometimes need to go to Amazon US Can do wired, dongle AND bluetooth Have LEDs under the keys Hot-swappable switches and keycaps Programmable, often using the VIA standard Offer reduced formats (lower footprint if you don't need the keypad). Brands you've never heard of, often goofy names, that only do keyboards A "creamy" feel/sound that's somewhere between squishy and clacky

There is also a thriving marketplace of custom switches and keycaps because of good standards to which most makers adhere. ("Cherry", which used to be the benchmark for switches, isn't even in anyone's top 10 list these days.)

I'm very happy with the two keyboards I've bought:

ElecFox Linky87 - Bought from Amazon US, CAD$77 including shipping to Canada and HST. It's the perfect layout for me, giving me new desktop space. Sounds and feels wonderful. I bought the black version which is not to all tastes because the key labels are on the side of the keys and use the LEDs to shine through.

The Kisnt KN85 - Also bought from Amazon US last year for about the same price. This seems to be the darling of the reviewers; it's certainly well made, and the sound and feel are excellent. But the software is non-standard and awful , and the layout is an odd one that I've never quite felt comfortable with. It's on Amazon Canada but last the price there was ridiculous, cheaper to buy at Amazon US and pay the shipping

I invite anyone reading this that might be interested to have a look at one or two of the Youtube channels that obsess with the subject, HipyoTech and SwitchAndClick are the two I follow.

I'd be interested to know about anyone else's journey through this realm, and/or if anyone thinks it would be a good topic for future GTALUG talk.

Cheers for making it this far.

- Evan ------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/AV63BHO...

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On Sun, Jun 14, 2026 at 12:22 AM William Park via Talk < talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:

All three keyboards mentioned are "linear" (Red) switch. Gamers like them, because force is constant throughout the key travel. I'm not a gamer, so can't comment on their experience. I prefer light key, that provides initial resistance and then collapses after trigger point. This usually means "clicky" (Blue) or "tactile" (Brown) switch, though I don't care about audio or tactile feedback. If anything, less noise is better.

I use Topre keyboard (brand: RealForce) which is "capacitive" switch with variable weight (ie. different key has different weight). I bought them long ago. It delayed the onset of carpal tunnel (wrist), tennis elbow (elbow), and pinched nerve (neck/shoulder), and it helps me keep those symptoms at manageable level.

One of the things I find most fascinating about the current environment is the nearly complete separation possible between keyboard case, switches and keycaps. Buy a keyboard for the layout, connectivity, software and build quality, but feel free to change the switches if you don't like what it came with because almost everything now is hot-swappable and uses the same standard sockets. Both keyboards I recently bought ship with key/switch pullers and spare switches. One well-reviewed keyboard, the SmackApe <https://smackape.com/collections/keyboard/products/impact-80> (I told you the vendor names were weird!) Impact 80 <https://www.amazon.com/SMACKAPE-Impact80-Mechanical-Hot-Swappable-Compatible/dp/B0G193TT5S/ref=sr_1_4>, comes with one of three different switches depending what colour you buy. Indeed, depending on your overall preference, you could do worse than to buy a sample pack of switches <https://hippokeys.com/collections/frontpage> to see if you're on Team Tactile, Squad Squishy or Club Creamy, then buy a set of the one you like. A set of 90 switches (for a keyboard without a number pad) will run about $40 <https://www.amazon.ca/Pro-Pre-lubed-Switches-Mechanical-Keyboard/dp/B0D17H6QFN/ref=sr_1_2> . Now, for mouse... get one with back/forward buttons. You will never go

back. So, 5-buttons + wheel. :-)

I was playing with that recently, but I found that there doesn't seem to be a standard mapping for those extra mouse (or in my case trackball) buttons. In the KDE settings I map them to PgUp and PgDn which makes them useful with some apps but I wish there was more standardization. I also notice that on a few of my pointing devices, the scroll wheel can be moved side to side enough to click, but I have no way of knowing how to implement that under Linux. It's *supposed* to enable horizontal scrolling, I believe, but I've never been able to make it work. - Evan

On Sun, 14 Jun 2026 at 09:24, Giles Orr <gilesorr@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 13 Jun 2026 at 15:17, Evan Leibovitch via Talk < talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:

...

Hi all,

I don't know if this is of interest to anyone but myself, but I thought it might be worth mentioning. Since the keyboard is something we interact with all the time -- more than any individual piece of software -- it seems that having the most comfortable and useful one is worthy of some effort.

For the longest time it seems that you had to go to one of two extremes

- Mushy, low-travel keys that are a seeming necessity in laptops but also seem to predominate among the low-value, plasticky stock that ships with most desktops. Relatively light, built mostly out of thin plastic. Quite inexpensive and easy to find, for all I know Dollarama may have one. (Even if they do, don't get it.)

- Loud, clacky, spring-resistant, built like tanks -- the kind I grew up with (evolved from the IBM Model M that is still being produced today) <https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/NEW_M> that became the early mainstay of gamers and power users. They were big, heavy and expensive, but very reliable -- the Cooler Master QuickFire unit that I've been using is old enough to have shipped with a PS/2 adapter. Mostly found in computer retailers and expensive (>$125).

But over the last year or two I've been seeing a whole new crop of keyboards that challenge the feel, build quality and even layouts of the tried and true; certainly they change the value proposal. I've bought two and switched to one as my daily driver.

These new keyboards have many common characteristics:

- Decent build quality - Less than C$100, sometimes way less - Online from Amazon or Aliexpress, sometimes need to go to Amazon US - Can do wired, dongle AND bluetooth - Have LEDs under the keys - Hot-swappable switches and keycaps - Programmable, often using the VIA standard <https://caniusevia.com/> - Offer reduced formats (lower footprint if you don't need the keypad). - Brands you've never heard of, often goofy names, that only do keyboards - A "creamy" feel/sound that's somewhere between squishy and clacky

There is also a thriving marketplace of custom switches and keycaps because of good standards to which most makers adhere. ("Cherry", which used to be the benchmark for switches, isn't even in anyone's top 10 list these days.)

I'm very happy with the two keyboards I've bought:

- ElecFox Linky87 <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0GCMKMN4F> - Bought from Amazon US, CAD$77 including shipping to Canada and HST. It's the perfect layout for me, giving me new desktop space. Sounds and feels wonderful. I bought the black version which is not to all tastes because the key labels are on the side of the keys and use the LEDs to shine through.

- The Kisnt KN85 <https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0DBZGH5XM> - Also bought from Amazon US last year for about the same price. This seems to be the darling of the reviewers; it's certainly well made, and the sound and feel are excellent. But the software is non-standard and awful , and the layout is an odd one that I've never quite felt comfortable with. It's on Amazon Canada but last the price there was ridiculous, cheaper to buy at Amazon US and pay the shipping

I invite anyone reading this that might be interested to have a look at one or two of the Youtube channels that obsess with the subject, HipyoTech <https://www.youtube.com/@HipyoTech> and SwitchAndClick <https://www.youtube.com/@SwitchandClickOfficial> are the two I follow.

I'd be interested to know about anyone else's journey through this realm, and/or if anyone thinks it would be a good topic for future GTALUG talk.

Cheers for making it this far.

- Evan

I've been a long-time advocate of the idea that cheap keyboards are a bad idea. We use keyboards multiple hours every day as our primary input device, it's worth spending real money on them to improve the experience and ergonomics.

I switched to the Dvorak layout in 1995. I own a couple IBM model Ms, but carpal tunnel eventually convinced me that split, columnar layouts were the way to go. Not sure when I got my first Kinesis Advantage keyboard: 2003? I own three of the Advantage and Advantage 2 (these have also proven spectacularly durable). But that's not for everyone: they cost $500-$600 back then, and Kinesis's new model (the split Advantage360) is $1000 and reportedly not as good. If you look them up, you'll find out that the Advantage keyboard isn't flat, but cup-shaped ... I think this is great but it takes some serious adjusting-to. (That build shape also largely explains their high cost.) My preference has always been for both tactile and loud keys - to the point that I unsoldered all the keys in an Advantage 2 and put in Cherry Blue keys instead of the Cherry Browns:

https://www.gilesorr.com/misc/keyboards/kinesis2keys.html

I own one of the Cooler Master QuickFires (with Cherry Blue keys) that Evan mentioned: I still consider it the gold standard for straight keyboards. But I have a couple of the recent cheaper models, both acquired at no cost: an Aukey KMG-12 and an Aula F3001. I got one at Junk Independence Day, where the prior owner told me he couldn't be bothered replacing the two key-caps he'd lost. I had already been experimenting with 3D-printing key-caps, so that was an easy fix for me. To Evan's point, that keyboard turned out to still be available (a year ago) at Best Buy for $40, so these can be quite cheap these days. Both of these have tactile-and-clicky keys, and I've been very happy with both - except for the rippling LED lights, which I'm not as fond of as many people seem to be. The other keyboard I found by the curb - it was only when I got it home that I discovered the previous owner had managed to push the USB-C connector inside the body. Damn thing was wave-soldered on, and my soldering skills are good but not that good: a friend did that repair for me.

I'm a little sad that Cherry isn't really a going concern any more: as interest in mechanical keyboards grew, so did interest in keyswitches. This led to a proliferation in imitators, and then eventually innovation and changes and cost reductions that that Cherry couldn't keep up with. But it does mean you have a LOT of options in keyswitches these days - in most (although not all) cases using the Cherry mounting system.

What people want in a keyboard varies wildly: the Kinesis Advantage 2 is the perfect keyboard for me, but the incredible proliferation of mechanical keyboards means you can have a product that feels better (and looks better) for a pretty reasonable price these days. This is one time brick-and-mortar stores are a real plus: Canada Computers often has an aisle where you can go to try them out. Keep in mind that your office mates or your family have to listen to you: super-clickies like the IBM Model M (or the UniComp variant) are great, but can drive those around you insane. (One of my office mates back around 2010 bought me a set of rubber rings specific to the Advantage keyboard I had at the office at the time ...) If you're a classically trained typist considering a split keyboard, look closely at the location of the keys at the split: for me personally, the placement of the "6" on the left half of the keyboard is WRONG, because the "6" should be typed with the right hand (and to my point about personal choices ... almost no one else cares).

If you're interested to see just how wildly the evolution of keyboards (and keyboard builders) is diverging, you can check out https://kbd.news/ .

This is a topic of particular interest to me, so I'd be happy to answer questions. Although I admit I haven't followed the keyboard scene all that closely in the past five years.

The $1000 price for the Advantage360 was from Amazon, and a third-party seller at that. When I looked at my trusted site, they have it at about $700 Canadian. I highly recommend ergocanada.com: I started dealing with them back in 2006 (although, given how reliable the Kinesis Advantage2 has been, I think I last bought from them in 2017!). They have a spectacularly retro-looking site, but they were very reliable and very knowledgeable (I spent time on the phone with them). If I were about to buy one of these keyboards (and I admit this conversation is making me consider it), I would buy from them. -- Giles https://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com

On Sun, Jun 14, 2026 at 9:24 AM Giles Orr via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:

If you're interested to see just how wildly the evolution of keyboards (and keyboard builders) is diverging, you can check out https://kbd.news/ .

The stuff there is way more hardcore than my level, which is itself a few steps beyond those who are satisfied with whatever Dell or HP or Logitech ships with their PC.

This is a topic of particular interest to me, so I'd be happy to answer questions.

Tag-team at a GTALUG talk? [...] I admit I haven't followed the keyboard scene all that closely in the

past five years.

This is what I was getting at with my original post, of the significant increase in accessibility of fairly good keyboards at really good prices combined with an explosion of diversity in switches and keycaps that can be hot-swapped. I know nothing about the ergonomic side of this industry, as I found split keyboards to be useless to my personal experience. If anything I want a keyboard that can be comfortable while being as compact as possible. I experimented with a few styles but have settled on what appears to be commonly known as the *Tenkeyless* (TKL) layout. What combats carpal-tunnel for me is using trackballs rather than mice when I can. And I haven't even mentioned the advances in connectivity. Many of these new keyboards are tri-mode, meaning that they can connect to devices by: - Conventional hardwire, mostly now USB-C - A wireless USB-A dongle (and they all have a place to store the dongle 🙂) - Bluetooth (which is what attracts me because a good keyboard plus tablet can be more comfortable to use while travelling than a laptop) - Evan

The supplier of the IBM M keyboard has a Tux version, which is a very important feature! :-) On Sun, Jun 14, 2026, 16:20 Lennart Sorensen <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:

On Sun, Jun 14, 2026 at 03:03:00PM -0400, James Knott via Talk wrote:

...

I use an IBM model M that's so old I have to use a PS/2 to USB adapter to use my 4 port HDMI/USB switch. I have even older ones that use the 5 pin DIN connector.

BTW, I used to work for IBM and used a model M every day!

I loved the Keytronic E03601. Looked like an IBM Model M, but much more pleasant (I think) to type on without the incredibly annoying noise because it is NOT a mechanical switch keyboard, contrary to what many people think when they try one. It was probably one of the best none mechanical switch keyboards ever made.

-- Len Sorensen

On Mon, Jun 15, 2026 at 7:43 AM bitmap <bitmap@imap.cc> wrote:

Great thread!

Great response! I always say that a keyboard is like shoes for your hands.

And I always thought that was the job of gloves... I am going to look into the brands/models that have been recommended

because it's always a struggle being in Canada, reading stuff written in the US about this or that device you can get for a good price, only to find it is 2x or 6x the price, or not available at all. And these devices in particular for some reason have had very unusual market strutures, where you have to be in discord chats to get a chance to pre order for a component that does not yet exist... I haven't participated in any of that stuff.

I'm certainly not hardcore enough to get into waiting for kickstarter-style or other elite keyboard gear. In the past few weeks as I've gone down a few rabbit holes, Since there seems to be interest in doing something at GTALUG I've started to gel a presentation comparing keyboard culture to coffee culture -- far more similarities than one might think. As for the struggles of doing this from Canada, boy do I hear ya. It seems like many of the more interesting vendors in this space either avoid the Canadian market or treat it as an afterthought. The one suggestion I would make is to consider shopping at US Amazon (amazon.com instead of amazon.ca) and have them ship to Canada. Examples: - The popular Kisnt K85 sells for CAD$82 at Amazon Canada <https://www.amazon.ca/Wireless-Mechanical-Keyboard-Bluetooth-Swappable/dp/B0DBZGH5XM/ref=sr_1_4> but USD$43 at Amazon USA <https://www.amazon.com/Kisnt-Wireless-Mechanical-Bluetooth-Swappable/dp/B0DBZGH5XM/ref=sr_1_3>. If you buy it from the States there's USD$11 shipping meaning that cost at current exchange is CAD$75. If you have a friend or relative in the States it can get shipped to them for free. - And that's when it's available at all. My daily driver, the Elecfox Linky87 sells at Amazon US for USD$39 <https://www.amazon.com/ELECFOX-Wireless-Mechanical-Swappable-Keyboards/dp/B0GCMKMN4F/ref=sr_1_3> but isn't on the Canadian site at all. Even after paying the shipping I consider it a bargain. Requiring TKL really reduces the options as many budget models go for a

smaller layout. But I want a full sized shift, navpad, Fkeys and all that.

That's where I am too. Refer to what I said above. At Amazon US there are 20 pages of TKL-layout keyboards <https://www.amazon.com/s?k=tkl+keyboard>. Also plenty at Aliexpress. The buying scene in Canada is ... not good ... but don't let that stop you. Initially I wanted LEDs but eventually I realized the nice keycaps are all

opaque anyway so I never used the lights. I do NOT like kbs with rainbow lights, flashing lights etc. I would only ever use solid white anyway, which is actually difficult to obtain. Wireless I almost never use. It's also nice to get one that comes with good internal insulation (foam/silicone mat under the curcuit board) because the sound is a lot less obnoxious. You can DIY stuffing full of foam but it takes a lot of time and is not as good. I do not fool around with more elaborate customizations although I would like to learn how to make the Space Bar behave, feel and sound more like the other keys instead of so loud and loose,

Have a look at some of the videos by HipyoTech and others to get a feel for what's available and possible.

Best switches for typing are box white kalih.

Like shoes, switches are VERY much a matter of personal preference. Based on the various reviews and videos, I'm looking to get a set of Gateron Milky Yellow Pro V3s I wish there was a good keyboard store in the GTA at which I could test. No such luck. Closest decent brick-and-mortar KB place I can see is in Ottawa <https://beaverkeys.ca/>.

Before I made decisions about switches I got a little sample kit of different basic switches because reading or watching youtubes about these things is very abstract.

I'm having a hard time finding decent sample packs. Any pointers? Only problem with the QMK is the configuration software has shit support

for linux. VIA really want you to use this web app that only runs on Chrome, which I don't typically keep around.

Brave Origin is a recently-released browser that is a good way to handle anything that needs Chromium. - Evan

Am I correct in this reasoning: - A Bluetooth keyboard is only supported by the OS (Linux, Windows, ...). - In particular, it isn't supported by firmware (EFI these days). - So it cannot be used during boot. - So you cannot use it to talk to the firmware setup page or the boot selection process.

Correct. I think you're stuck needing the KVMs. - Evan

On Mon, Jun 15, 2026 at 11:32 AM Howard Gibson via Talk < talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:

http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson/GearheadKeyboard.html

I did not use this keyboard for a desktop. I used it for a computer plugged into the TV set and stereo system in my living room.

That's a whole 'nother realm of keyboards. King of this hill is the Logitech Media K400 Plus <https://www.logitech.com/en-ca/shop/p/k400-plus-touchpad-keyboard>. I have one, it's nice but very role-specific. It may not have been released at the time you bought yours (TigerDirect stores haven't been around for more than a decade). - Evan