On 07/18/2016 05:24 AM, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

there are actually productivity tools I find easier on a phone these days than a PC (translation, news, and especially email).

I have a desktop computer, notebook computer, tablet and smart phone. I use them all but find for most things, doing them on the desktop computer is easier, including email, as I have a full size keyboard and mouse. Certainly, I'm more likely to have my phone with me and can do email on it, but doing so it not as easy as on a computer.

On 18 July 2016 at 08:03, Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

but since I am keeping track of a combination of work and home email I am using Blue Mail which I much prefer to either the native Gmail or Outlook apps.

Does Blue Mail allow you to turn of HTML, and just send plain text, when you compose an email? -- Scott

I cannot help but notice that you do a much worse job of trimming quotes when you use K-9. At least this time and the following message. A pattern that I've noticed: people emailing from smart phones don't read email as carefully nor do they reply as thoughtfully. This may be a win for them (less effort, more immediacy) but it is a loss for me as a correspondent. | User-Agent: K-9 Mail for Android | From: James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | To: Toronto Linux Users Group <talk@gtalug.org> | Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:43:09 -0400 | Subject: Re: [GTALUG] 2 weeks on cell phone and chromebook... never again! | Reply-To: James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com>, GTALUG Talk <talk@gtalug.org> | | On July 18, 2016 8:03:48 AM EDT, Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote: | >I find that there are some Android apps that have better email | >management | >than standard Gmail -- especially when it comes to handling of | >incoming. | > | >If I were only using Gmail accounts I'd probably be using Inbox | ><https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.google.android.apps.inbox>, | >but since I am keeping track of a combination of work and home email I | >am | >using Blue Mail | ><https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=me.bluemail.mail> which | >I | >much prefer to either the native Gmail or Outlook apps. | > | > | > | >On 18 July 2016 at 06:58, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote: | > | >> On 07/18/2016 05:24 AM, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote: | >> > there are actually productivity tools I find easier on a phone | >these | >> > days than a PC (translation, news, and especially email). | >> | >> I have a desktop computer, notebook computer, tablet and smart phone. | > I | >> use them all but find for most things, doing them on the desktop | >> computer is easier, including email, as I have a full size keyboard | >and | >> mouse. Certainly, I'm more likely to have my phone with me and can | >do | >> email on it, but doing so it not as easy as on a computer. | >> | > | > | > | >-- | >Evan Leibovitch | >Geneva, CH | > | >Em: evan at telly dot org | >Sk: evanleibovitch | >Tw: el56 | | I use K9 Mail on my phone. I find the GMail app doesn't handle URLs. At home I use SeaMonkey.

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 11:52:36AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

I cannot help but notice that you do a much worse job of trimming quotes when you use K-9. At least this time and the following message.

A pattern that I've noticed: people emailing from smart phones don't read email as carefully nor do they reply as thoughtfully. This may be a win for them (less effort, more immediacy) but it is a loss for me as a correspondent.

You can't tell if I am on my phone or not. Either way I am using mutt in screen with ssh. :) -- Len Sorensen

On 18/07/16 12:26 PM, James Knott via talk wrote:

On 07/18/2016 12:22 PM, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:

...

You can't tell if I am on my phone or not. Either way I am using mutt in screen with ssh. :) The issue is it's more work to trim on a phone than computer. Also, when I replied to your messages, I had to delete your address so that I wouldn't send to both you and the list. Reply to list is easy on a computer.

--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

Adding constraints like a small screen and fat fingers makes some things hard. It also causes a drive towards new, often more elegant solutions by the persons doing the development. Sometimes they succeed, but not always! --dave -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 01:23:53PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:

Well doesn't seem hard in mutt, although I guess having a physical keyboard on the phone makes mutt easier to operate too.

And operating vim isn't too bad on a blackberry over ssh either. -- Len Sorensen

On 2016-07-18 03:52 PM, Peter King via talk wrote:

Ditto. Acceptable on a phone, okay on a tablet, wonderful on a computer. Best solution to mail management ever

As a voice for YMMV: no CUA or even remotely standard keys, weird display (aka "not 3-pane"), questionable to no mouse mapping*, opaque configuration, ... glad it floats all y'all's boats, but it's not for me. Stewart *: I should be able to click anywhere in a terminal window, and the programme should receive suitable cursor control commands. We're not in the 1970s.

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 10:51:34PM -0400, Loui Chang via talk wrote:

mutt generally follows keybindings similar to vim, less, and the like. If you don't like those then config keybindings to what your 'standard' liking. The ability to configure and customize is part of the power of mutt.

Cursor keys to move, enter to select, q to quit and go back. Seems pretty obvious.

...

weird display (aka "not 3-pane"),

You can get that, or closer to that with different build/config. Sidebar patch was recently mainlined. That interface would be weird in mutt anyways, at least not really necessary.

Not very nice for keyboard navigation.

Folders/mailboxes are one key away. I can't read two or three things at once so I don't need to see email contents, plus list of emails, plus list of folders simultaneously.

Well I use screen to keep one mutt instance per folder going, so that's convinient. main email in screen 0, tlug in screen 1, lkml in screen 2, netdev in screen 3, etc, spam in screen 9 or something like that.

There is none unless someone has a patch kicking around somewhere. I think most needs can be met through a decent terminal editor and appropriate config. The idea of efficient email writing/reading is keeping your hands on the keyboard anyways.

Yes email involves content, which involves writing, which involves keyboard, which does NOT involve mouse.

??? There is a wiki and a bunch of documentation.

Start here and read all the pages: https://dev.mutt.org/trac/wiki/MuttWiki

Yes the documentation is quite good.

Sorry, try again. mutt requires something of a conceptual shift of how to deal with email. If you expect or rely on the 'traditional' method, then maybe mutt is not for you. mutt might only really appeal to people who dig into documentation, patches, and building software from source code.

Well some of us like traditional email, which mutt very much is. Outlook, gmail, thunderbird, etc are NOT traditional. -- Len Sorensen

Nicely put, my beef exactly, and when i had a rim BB back in the day, i think i was better off then now. i hope they put out a priv 2, or if i use a priv 1, the keyboard is suitable to my fingers, as reading this just now reminds next time in a phone store have to give priv a try. I didn't have auto-correct on 10 year old BB, and i think i still could thumb out emails at 3x the speed i can with my note 3. Or maybe someone will make a slide out key phone if no priv 2 makes it to market. -tl On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 9:19 PM, William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 11:52:36AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

...

A pattern that I've noticed: people emailing from smart phones don't read email as carefully nor do they reply as thoughtfully. This may be a win for them (less effort, more immediacy) but it is a loss for me as a correspondent.

Try writing email on cell phone, Hugh. I would have thrown my cell phone against wall, if it wasn't so expensive.

1. You are using web interface, ie. yahoo.ca or gmail.com. So, you can <Backspace> to left, but you can't <Delete> to right.

2. You are pecking at 2.5in wide keyboard with your finger/thumb which are bigger than a key.

3. After pressing a wrong key, you are trying to place the cursor at the right spot, with your fingers that cover 2 lines vertically and 4 chars horizontally. Oops, you placed it wrong spot. Now, try to move the cursor.

4. You typed it right, but phone's autocorrection changes it to something else. Again, go back to correct that typo.

5. My phone's screen is 5.7" Full HD (1920x1080). So, I have the same resolution as desktop monitor, but practically impossible to navigate properly. Clicking a link is challenge. You spend all your time zooming in, click a button, zoom out to see the page properly, then swipe to center, zoom in to read text, zoom out to see what's on the next page, etc... -- William --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

Where do I begin... First, what's good: 1. Calendar. Since it's so tightly integrated with Google Calendar, adding/editing entry is so easy. Of course, assuming that author of the webpage uses Google link. Then, you click, select "Copy to William Park", then I'm on my Google Calendar, finally "Save". 2. Just checking email. I can check my Yahoo and Gmail account from cell phone and Chromebook. It's simply as clicking icon, and you're automatically logged in, and then swipe up and down to see new emails. Now, what's bad: 1. Typing. Cell phone's 2.5" wide keyboard is just non-starter for me. That's even with - auto-completion, - letter swiping -- instead of typing each key, you move your finger on the screen, from key to key without lifting from the screen, and - voice recognition -- this was better than I expected. Chomebook's keyboard has 2.2mm key travel, so is better than most laptop actually. But, you don't have full keyboard. It took me long time to find out <Alt-Backspace> is <Delete>. Who's going memorize all these combinations, <https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/183101?hl=en> 2. Multitasking. On desktop, I can move here and there, forward and backward, terminal here and there, etc. On Chromebook, it was difficult to move about. Non-starter on cell phone, of course. 3. Storage. No local storage. Cell phone and Chromebook are not meant to be substitute for real computer. They are designed for people who don't do real work on computer. 4. Screen. LG Nexus 5X has 5.7" 1920x1080 screen, same as full desktop monitor. But, because of small size and lack of "mouse", it's not really useable. You spend too much time, zooming in/out. Because it's cell phone, I get automatically redirected to "mobile" site with shitty interface. Chromebook is a little better, 11.5" 1366x768. It's ok for searching Google or Wiki, online shopping, and banking. These are just expensive toys. -- William On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 11:24:22AM +0200, Evan Leibovitch wrote:

Hi there,

I wouldn't mind hearing specifics, as to what was harder to do on the Chromebook than a PC...there are actually productivity tools I find easier on a phone these days than a PC (translation, news, and especially email). Was the productivity loss inherent in the OS and system design, or because of crappier hardware (Chromebooks tend to be sub-$300, I wouldn't expect their keyboards or displays to be as good as in a $1000 laptop).

Thanks!

On 18 July 2016 at 04:39, William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

...

I just spent 2 weeks living purely on cell phone (LG Nexus 5X) and chromebook (HP Chromebook 11 G3). Now, I'm back on real computer with real keyboard/mouse. What a difference in productivity! -- William --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- Evan Leibovitch Geneva, CH

Em: evan at telly dot org Sk: evanleibovitch Tw: el56

On 07/19/2016 10:56 PM, William Park via talk wrote:

These are just expensive toys.

No, it's just a matter of the appropriate tool for the job. As much as I prefer to use my desktop computer for email, there are times when it's useful to be able to use my phone for it. I use my tablet frequently for reading books etc. I also play music through my phone or tablet.

On 07/20/2016 07:45 AM, Russell Reiter wrote:

I find reading more difficult. I read a lot of PDF files. I wish someone would perfect reflow for Android.

I find epubs work well on my tablet and even phone. On my desktop computer, I prefer PDF. I have a lot of O'Reilly ebooks. Fortunately most ebooks are available in a variety of formats, so I download both epub and PDF.

Sheesh, sometimes in this list feel like I'm in a retirement home sitting around a circle of people complaining about Elvis and self-serve elevators. "Real men don't use HTML email"?.... pfffft. Get over it. These days email makes up but a fraction of my digital communications, and most of that is either mailing lists, or Outlook/Exchange from work because that's how they work .... Skype, Hangouts, SMS, and social media posts enable immediate response and don't need aggressive spam filters. Not every communications calls for the same tool. As for typing, give me a break. I can enter text on a screen without taking my finger off the glass, (using the free Swiftkey kb) at least as fast as I could ever do on a real keyboard (which was, honestly, never too fast to start with). The innovations here are coming from mobile, not the end of an RS-232 cable. The only times where I really like a full keyboard and pointer is for typing long documents, and creating things that require greater pointing precision than the tip of my finger (which, in my case, mean a Cherry Brown keyboard and trackball instead of mouse). But such creative work takes but a fraction of my total time interfacing with computing devices. And as for "ooh, that's a CONSUMER device".... expressed in any field, such an attitude does little but reveal elitist snobbery in the speaker. A Samsung phone in the hands of a good photographer will produce more desirable results than a dork with a Hasselblad. On 20 July 2016 at 16:24, Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 10:56:12PM -0400, William Park via talk wrote:

...

Where do I begin... First, what's good:

1. Calendar. Since it's so tightly integrated with Google Calendar, adding/editing entry is so easy. Of course, assuming that author of the webpage uses Google link. Then, you click, select "Copy to William Park", then I'm on my Google Calendar, finally "Save".

2. Just checking email. I can check my Yahoo and Gmail account from cell phone and Chromebook. It's simply as clicking icon, and you're automatically logged in, and then swipe up and down to see new emails.

Now, what's bad:

1. Typing.

Cell phone's 2.5" wide keyboard is just non-starter for me. That's even with - auto-completion, - letter swiping -- instead of typing each key, you move your finger on the screen, from key to key without lifting from the screen, and - voice recognition -- this was better than I expected.

Chomebook's keyboard has 2.2mm key travel, so is better than most laptop actually. But, you don't have full keyboard. It took me long time to find out <Alt-Backspace> is <Delete>. Who's going memorize all these combinations, <https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/183101?hl=en>

Well the keyboard on my BB Classic works quite well.

...

2. Multitasking.

On desktop, I can move here and there, forward and backward, terminal here and there, etc. On Chromebook, it was difficult to move about. Non-starter on cell phone, of course.

BB OS 10 seems to actually multitask quite well and switching between programs is quite simple and fast. Having played some with my wife's Nexus 5 I can say android sucks at it.

So it can be done, unfortunately it seems no one wants the phone OS that has actually done it well.

...

3. Storage.

No local storage. Cell phone and Chromebook are not meant to be substitute for real computer. They are designed for people who don't do real work on computer.

Yeah internal storage or SD card is probably not as good.

...

4. Screen.

LG Nexus 5X has 5.7" 1920x1080 screen, same as full desktop monitor. But, because of small size and lack of "mouse", it's not really useable. You spend too much time, zooming in/out. Because it's cell phone, I get automatically redirected to "mobile" site with shitty interface.

Chromebook is a little better, 11.5" 1366x768. It's ok for searching Google or Wiki, online shopping, and banking.

I just have a 720x720 screen, but I also have a trackpoint for navigating which works a lot better than trying to move the cursor with a finger on the screen.

...

These are just expensive toys.

They are for consumers. That is people who consume content, not people who create it. If you want to write an email or other message you are creating content, and who does that these days. :)

-- Len Sorensen --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- Evan Leibovitch Geneva, CH Em: evan at telly dot org Sk: evanleibovitch Tw: el56

On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 10:02:09AM -0400, Myles Braithwaite via talk wrote:

Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

...

Reminds me of the xkcd comic Real Programmers: <https://xkcd.com/378/>.

Furthermore we lose about 3 to 5 mailing list subscribers every time this discussion is on the list. Which makes it toxic to our community.

Reminds me of the xkcd comic Real Programmers: <https://xkcd.com/378/>.

Furthermore we lose about 3 to 5 mailing list subscribers every time this discussion is bought out and beaten to death.

Why? We're giving them valuable informations from personal experience. -- William

On 23 July 2016 at 15:27, William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

...

Furthermore we lose about 3 to 5 mailing list subscribers every time this discussion is bought out and beaten to death.

Why? We're giving them valuable informations from personal experience.

​If they're leaving, clearly they not only find ​such "information"​ non-valuable, but enough so to warrant not sticking around for more.​ ​ Perhaps there are lessons in that among those who remain, for those who care to learn. - Evan ​

On Sat 23 Jul 2016 12:54 -0400, Bob Jonkman via talk wrote:

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

Evan wrote:

...

Perhaps there are lessons in that

What? That we should self-censor our conversations to keep the list subscription numbers inflated? If so, where *do* we go to discuss streetcar electrics or theodolites or the best place to buy blank Beta tapes?

Hehe yeah. Though it would be nice if there were more Linux related threads on the list.

On 2016-07-23 05:29 PM, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:

This is a local mail list who's membership seems to be quite far reaching geographically, so why not topically as well?

Because this is explicitly a Linux user group mailing list, with guidelines that say: "Particularly for this list: Don't be the guy on the soapbox, Try to stay out of political, social, or religious issues, Avoid bad jokes, personal rants or similar non-Linux related discussion, Any subscribers who offers or requests pirated software, license keys or cracks, and similar will be dropped from the list without warning, and No commercial advertising. Off topic messages will not be tolerated or endorsed." cheers, Stewart

<snip>

does let us use M$ symmetric message blocks to print to Windohs networks.

I meant server message blocks. I conjoined symmetric crypto with block message info. Sorry for any confusion.

Note: this is top-posted for completeness TL;DR: sloppy quoting has confused people, wasted their time, and hurt some feelings. Careful quoting matters. There is some confusion on the thread about why people might be unsubscribing because <something>. I think this confusion could have been avoided through better quoting. Here's my tentative analysis: 1. Len's post. Not top-posted (good). Response immediately following what it is responding to (good). Could be improved by trimming things not being responded to. 2. Evan's wide-ranging reply to Len. Top-posted, so reader cannot tell what he was actually responding to. I felt much was not actually a response at all. In particular, I'm guessing that this line is the one relevant to the mystery. | "Real men don't use HTML email"?.... pfffft. Get over it. This does not seem to be a response to anything actually in Len's message. But it is couched as a snide response to Len. 3. Myles' reply to Evan. Not top-posted (good). Bungled quoting: his reply includes a copy of itself, attributed to Evan. Luckily it was only one level or we'd have an infinite message. This is what other folks are startled by: | Furthermore we lose about 3 to 5 mailing list subscribers every time | this discussion is bought out and beaten to death. We have no clue what Myles is responding to since the quoting was bungled. But I'm pretty sure that it was the comment about HTML. [snide] Was this worth bring up? I guess so if we wish to beat it to death again, losing another 3-5 members. [/snide] This is the second way in which Myles' message is self-referential. Kind of interesting. 4. William's reply to Myles. Not top posted (good). Quotes Myles' misquote of Evan, perpetuating that mistake. He asks why people are leaving the list due to the discussion of <something>. He probably thinks Myles' comment was aimed at him for starting this thread. | Why? We're giving them valuable informations from personal experience. I think that his reasonable interpretation is wrong. I don't think that he actually was being criticised. At least six other posters (and an unknown number of readers) were confused by this. Including Evan! Here are the original messages, without editing of the content: | From: Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | To: GTALUG Talk <talk@gtalug.org> | Date: Wed, 20 Jul 2016 10:24:08 -0400 | Subject: Re: [GTALUG] 2 weeks on cell phone and chromebook... never again! | | On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 10:56:12PM -0400, William Park via talk wrote: | > Where do I begin... First, what's good: | > | > 1. Calendar. Since it's so tightly integrated with Google Calendar, | > adding/editing entry is so easy. Of course, assuming that author of | > the webpage uses Google link. Then, you click, select "Copy to | > William Park", then I'm on my Google Calendar, finally "Save". | > | > 2. Just checking email. I can check my Yahoo and Gmail account from | > cell phone and Chromebook. It's simply as clicking icon, and you're | > automatically logged in, and then swipe up and down to see new | > emails. | > | > Now, what's bad: | > | > 1. Typing. | > | > Cell phone's 2.5" wide keyboard is just non-starter for me. | > That's even with | > - auto-completion, | > - letter swiping -- instead of typing each key, you move | > your finger on the screen, from key to key without lifting | > from the screen, and | > - voice recognition -- this was better than I expected. | > | > Chomebook's keyboard has 2.2mm key travel, so is better than | > most laptop actually. But, you don't have full keyboard. It | > took me long time to find out <Alt-Backspace> is <Delete>. | > Who's going memorize all these combinations, | > <https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/183101?hl=en> | | Well the keyboard on my BB Classic works quite well. | | > 2. Multitasking. | > | > On desktop, I can move here and there, forward and backward, | > terminal here and there, etc. On Chromebook, it was difficult | > to move about. Non-starter on cell phone, of course. | | BB OS 10 seems to actually multitask quite well and switching between | programs is quite simple and fast. Having played some with my wife's | Nexus 5 I can say android sucks at it. | | So it can be done, unfortunately it seems no one wants the phone OS that | has actually done it well. | | > 3. Storage. | > | > No local storage. Cell phone and Chromebook are not meant to be | > substitute for real computer. They are designed for people who | > don't do real work on computer. | | Yeah internal storage or SD card is probably not as good. | | > 4. Screen. | > | > LG Nexus 5X has 5.7" 1920x1080 screen, same as full desktop | > monitor. But, because of small size and lack of "mouse", it's | > not really useable. You spend too much time, zooming in/out. | > Because it's cell phone, I get automatically redirected to | > "mobile" site with shitty interface. | > | > Chromebook is a little better, 11.5" 1366x768. It's ok for | > searching Google or Wiki, online shopping, and banking. | | I just have a 720x720 screen, but I also have a trackpoint for navigating | which works a lot better than trying to move the cursor with a finger | on the screen. | | > These are just expensive toys. | | They are for consumers. That is people who consume content, not people | who create it. If you want to write an email or other message you are | creating content, and who does that these days. :) | | -- | Len Sorensen | From: Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | To: Lennart Sorensen <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>, GTALUG Talk <talk@gtalug.org> | Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 15:51:25 +0200 | Subject: Re: [GTALUG] 2 weeks on cell phone and chromebook... never again! | | Sheesh, sometimes in this list feel like I'm in a retirement home sitting | around a circle of people complaining about Elvis and self-serve elevators. | | "Real men don't use HTML email"?.... pfffft. Get over it. | | These days email makes up but a fraction of my digital communications, and | most of that is either mailing lists, or Outlook/Exchange from work because | that's how they work .... Skype, Hangouts, SMS, and social media posts | enable immediate response and don't need aggressive spam filters. Not every | communications calls for the same tool. | | As for typing, give me a break. I can enter text on a screen without taking | my finger off the glass, (using the free Swiftkey kb) at least as fast as I | could ever do on a real keyboard (which was, honestly, never too fast to | start with). The innovations here are coming from mobile, not the end of an | RS-232 cable. | | The only times where I really like a full keyboard and pointer is for | typing long documents, and creating things that require greater pointing | precision than the tip of my finger (which, in my case, mean a Cherry Brown | keyboard and trackball instead of mouse). But such creative work takes but | a fraction of my total time interfacing with computing devices. | | And as for "ooh, that's a CONSUMER device".... expressed in any field, | such an attitude does little but reveal elitist snobbery in the speaker. A | Samsung phone in the hands of a good photographer will produce more | desirable results than a dork with a Hasselblad. | | | | On 20 July 2016 at 16:24, Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote: | | > On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 10:56:12PM -0400, William Park via talk wrote: | > > Where do I begin... First, what's good: | > > | > > 1. Calendar. Since it's so tightly integrated with Google Calendar, | > > adding/editing entry is so easy. Of course, assuming that author of | > > the webpage uses Google link. Then, you click, select "Copy to | > > William Park", then I'm on my Google Calendar, finally "Save". | > > | > > 2. Just checking email. I can check my Yahoo and Gmail account from | > > cell phone and Chromebook. It's simply as clicking icon, and you're | > > automatically logged in, and then swipe up and down to see new | > > emails. | > > | > > Now, what's bad: | > > | > > 1. Typing. | > > | > > Cell phone's 2.5" wide keyboard is just non-starter for me. | > > That's even with | > > - auto-completion, | > > - letter swiping -- instead of typing each key, you move | > > your finger on the screen, from key to key without lifting | > > from the screen, and | > > - voice recognition -- this was better than I expected. | > > | > > Chomebook's keyboard has 2.2mm key travel, so is better than | > > most laptop actually. But, you don't have full keyboard. It | > > took me long time to find out <Alt-Backspace> is <Delete>. | > > Who's going memorize all these combinations, | > > <https://support.google.com/chromebook/answer/183101?hl=en> | > | > Well the keyboard on my BB Classic works quite well. | > | > > 2. Multitasking. | > > | > > On desktop, I can move here and there, forward and backward, | > > terminal here and there, etc. On Chromebook, it was difficult | > > to move about. Non-starter on cell phone, of course. | > | > BB OS 10 seems to actually multitask quite well and switching between | > programs is quite simple and fast. Having played some with my wife's | > Nexus 5 I can say android sucks at it. | > | > So it can be done, unfortunately it seems no one wants the phone OS that | > has actually done it well. | > | > > 3. Storage. | > > | > > No local storage. Cell phone and Chromebook are not meant to be | > > substitute for real computer. They are designed for people who | > > don't do real work on computer. | > | > Yeah internal storage or SD card is probably not as good. | > | > > 4. Screen. | > > | > > LG Nexus 5X has 5.7" 1920x1080 screen, same as full desktop | > > monitor. But, because of small size and lack of "mouse", it's | > > not really useable. You spend too much time, zooming in/out. | > > Because it's cell phone, I get automatically redirected to | > > "mobile" site with shitty interface. | > > | > > Chromebook is a little better, 11.5" 1366x768. It's ok for | > > searching Google or Wiki, online shopping, and banking. | > | > I just have a 720x720 screen, but I also have a trackpoint for navigating | > which works a lot better than trying to move the cursor with a finger | > on the screen. | > | > > These are just expensive toys. | > | > They are for consumers. That is people who consume content, not people | > who create it. If you want to write an email or other message you are | > creating content, and who does that these days. :) | > | > -- | > Len Sorensen | > --- | > Talk Mailing List | > talk@gtalug.org | > https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk | > | | | | -- | Evan Leibovitch | Geneva, CH | | Em: evan at telly dot org | Sk: evanleibovitch | Tw: el56 | | | | [ Part 2: "Attached Text" ] | From: Myles Braithwaite via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | To: GTALUG Talk <talk@gtalug.org> | Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2016 10:02:09 -0400 | Subject: Re: [GTALUG] 2 weeks on cell phone and chromebook... never again! | | Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote: | > Reminds me of the xkcd comic Real Programmers: <https://xkcd.com/378/>. | > | > Furthermore we lose about 3 to 5 mailing list subscribers every time | > this discussion is on the list. Which makes it toxic to our community. | | Reminds me of the xkcd comic Real Programmers: <https://xkcd.com/378/>. | | Furthermore we lose about 3 to 5 mailing list subscribers every time | this discussion is bought out and beaten to death. | --- | Talk Mailing List | talk@gtalug.org | https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk | | | From talk@gtalug.org Sat Jul 23 09:27:50 2016 | From: William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | To: talk@gtalug.org | Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2016 09:27:33 -0400 | Subject: Re: [GTALUG] 2 weeks on cell phone and chromebook... never again! | Reply-To: William Park <opengeometry@yahoo.ca>, GTALUG Talk <talk@gtalug.org> | | On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 10:02:09AM -0400, Myles Braithwaite via talk wrote: | > Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote: | > > Reminds me of the xkcd comic Real Programmers: <https://xkcd.com/378/>. | > > | > > Furthermore we lose about 3 to 5 mailing list subscribers every time | > > this discussion is on the list. Which makes it toxic to our community. | > | > Reminds me of the xkcd comic Real Programmers: <https://xkcd.com/378/>. | > | > Furthermore we lose about 3 to 5 mailing list subscribers every time | > this discussion is bought out and beaten to death. | | Why? We're giving them valuable informations from personal experience. | -- | William

On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 03:51:25PM +0200, Evan Leibovitch wrote:

Sheesh, sometimes in this list feel like I'm in a retirement home sitting around a circle of people complaining about Elvis and self-serve elevators.

"Real men don't use HTML email"?.... pfffft. Get over it.

I use mutt on one account for mailing lists. I do not deal with html content on that account. I use a gmail account for doing email with friends and websites/companies and such. I would not expect that to not use html and gmail handles that just fine.

These days email makes up but a fraction of my digital communications, and most of that is either mailing lists, or Outlook/Exchange from work because that's how they work .... Skype, Hangouts, SMS, and social media posts enable immediate response and don't need aggressive spam filters. Not every communications calls for the same tool.

As for typing, give me a break. I can enter text on a screen without taking my finger off the glass, (using the free Swiftkey kb) at least as fast as I could ever do on a real keyboard (which was, honestly, never too fast to start with). The innovations here are coming from mobile, not the end of an RS-232 cable.

I do remember a professor pointing out that the Mac GUI didn't make things easier, it just made things harder for those people that could use a CLI so they were at an equal level.

The only times where I really like a full keyboard and pointer is for typing long documents, and creating things that require greater pointing precision than the tip of my finger (which, in my case, mean a Cherry Brown keyboard and trackball instead of mouse). But such creative work takes but a fraction of my total time interfacing with computing devices.

And as for "ooh, that's a CONSUMER device".... expressed in any field, such an attitude does little but reveal elitist snobbery in the speaker. A Samsung phone in the hands of a good photographer will produce more desirable results than a dork with a Hasselblad.

Yes a good tool does not make up for a bad user. But an expert can't make up for a bad tool either. -- Len Sorensen

On Fri, Jul 22, 2016 at 03:51:25PM +0200, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

These days email makes up but a fraction of my digital communications, and most of that is either mailing lists, or Outlook/Exchange from work because that's how they work .... Skype, Hangouts, SMS, and social media posts enable immediate response and don't need aggressive spam filters. Not every communications calls for the same tool.

Most of my communication is with people I don't know or met (ie. work related). So, it's email, and top-posting.

As for typing, give me a break. I can enter text on a screen without taking my finger off the glass, (using the free Swiftkey kb) at least as fast as I

I have that too. I still have to locate the keys, slide my finger, hold or make sharp turn at the key, etc. Cell phone guess it wrong half the time, so I still have to correct the word. Putting a little oil on the screen helps with the glide.

could ever do on a real keyboard (which was, honestly, never too fast to start with). The innovations here are coming from mobile, not the end of an RS-232 cable.

The only times where I really like a full keyboard and pointer is for typing long documents, and creating things that require greater pointing precision than the tip of my finger (which, in my case, mean a Cherry Brown keyboard and trackball instead of mouse). But such creative work takes but a fraction of my total time interfacing with computing devices.

I think, we're saying the same thing. "Right tool for right job". As simple comparison of - Android: 1920x1080 5.2" cell phone touch screen - Windows: 1920x1080 24" desktop monitor, full size keyboard, 5-button Microsoft mouse I'm more productive on Windows desktop, by orders of magnitude. Even more so on Linux machine at home. So, cell phone is not the "right tool" for me. (Note: 5-button mouse is nice. You might say, you have Back and Forward buttons on browsers or apps. But, you have to locate the buttons, move the mouse, it will "overshoot", you make correction, and finally click. You can adjust "damping" factor on the mouse feets or mouse "acceleration" settings, but it's limited. With dedicated Back/Forward buttons on the mouse, you move the mouse pointer to anywhere on the windows of apps, then click.) For top-post emails that I get/send at work, cell phone is fine, because you always add on top and never edit below. Eg, you send 13-point detailed description of problem, and you get one-liner response, "When is ETA?". Oh, it's two-liner if count "Sent from iPhone." Very pissed, considering the money I spent on LG Nexus 5X. -- William