Do you recognized valid email addresses? NO, you do not.
For everyone complaining that $tech is too complicated or makes no sense (I'm guilty sometimes), here's a fun quiz to test your knowledge about something simple - email address formats. A tip when going into this, "Valid" can mean "Was Once Valid per RFC". https://e-mail.wtf/
I scored 12/21 on https://e-mail.wtf and all I got was this lousy text to share on social media.
What's your score? 100% == liar Bonus: https://jsdate.wtf/
How well do you know JavaScript's Date class?
Worth looking at even if not interested in JS. I forget my score on that one, but it wasn't great.
From: Ron via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
A tip when going into this, "Valid" can mean "Was Once Valid per RFC".
I started the test. I disagree with their answer to the first question, so I gave up. easy@example.com I say "invalid" because example.com is a reserved domain. They say "valid". As described in RFC 2606 and RFC 6761, a number of domains such as example.com and example.org are maintained for documentation purposes. These domains may be used as illustrative examples in documents without prior coordination with us. They are not available for registration or transfer.
D. Hugh Redelmeier via Talk wrote on 2025-08-25 05:26:
I started the test. I disagree with their answer to the first question, so I gave up.
easy@example.com
I say "invalid" because example.com is a reserved domain. They say "valid".
Okay, good catch, but it doesn't really reflect on the remainder of the quiz. The site would be foolish to include anything that could be a real, in-use email address domain for the same reason that 555 is a common part of a phone number in movies & TV. One should never publish example URLs / phone numbers that may already exist or can be registered after the fact.
On Mon, 25 Aug 2025 08:26:53 -0400 (EDT) "D. Hugh Redelmeier via Talk" <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
From: Ron via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> A tip when going into this, "Valid" can mean "Was Once Valid per RFC". https://e-mail.wtf/ I started the test. I disagree with their answer to the first question, so I gave up. easy@example.com I say "invalid" because example.com is a reserved domain. They say "valid".
So, to test these guys, I just said "valid" And it tells me: easy@example.com ❌ This is valid. No tricks here, just easing you into it. F*cking idiots. The email address is valid in it's format but invalid in terms of RFC is the correct answer. So, it looks like they find an ambigious reason to push their POV which is that whoever are jumping through their hoops is just 'wrong' Whahahaha, WE are all idiots for falling for this bullshit. hth Andre
As described in RFC 2606 and RFC 6761, a number of domains such as example.com and example.org are maintained for documentation purposes. These domains may be used as illustrative examples in documents without prior coordination with us. They are not available for registration or transfer. ------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/N4K5G5U...
On Tue, Aug 26, 2025 at 2:27 AM ac via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
So, to test these guys, I just said "valid"
And it tells me: easy@example.com ❌ This is valid. No tricks here, just easing you into it.
F*cking idiots.
Sheesh. Lighten up on the energy drinks. It's just a dumb little quiz, and it actually taught a thing or two by offering a glimpse of some of the dodges spammers can use to get through filters. Whahahaha, WE are all idiots for falling for this bullshit.
Fall for? Guess I wasn't as invested in this quite as much as others. - Evan
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 04:22:09 -0400 Evan Leibovitch <evanleibovitch@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Aug 26, 2025 at 2:27 AM ac via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
So, to test these guys, I just said "valid" And it tells me: easy@example.com ❌ This is valid. No tricks here, just easing you into it. F*cking idiots.
Sheesh. Lighten up on the energy drinks. It's just a dumb little quiz, and it actually taught a thing or two by offering a glimpse of some of the dodges spammers can use to get through filters.
no energy drinks, lots of coffee though :) just tired of all the tech b*llsh1t though. anyone filtering for incoming spam, based on incoming email adress or reply to email address is well & truly f*cked. anyone filtering for outgoing spam based on outgoing email address or from: is similarly screwed. even allocating a spam score based on any email address is just tech ignorant. any email server admin should REJECT any non existent email address whether incoming or outgoing. and, just while on the topic of STUPID - filtering based on domain name or email is just dumb. imnsho, of course an ymmv Andre
ac via Talk wrote on 2025-08-25 23:28:
So, to test these guys, I just said "valid"
And it tells me:
easy@example.com ❌ This is valid. No tricks here, just easing you into it.
F*cking idiots.
Really?
The email address is valid in it's format but invalid in terms of RFC is the correct answer.
Again, it's poor form to publish existing or potentially existing email addresses or phone numbers.
So, it looks like they find an ambigious reason to push their POV which is that whoever are jumping through their hoops is just 'wrong'
Whahahaha, WE are all idiots for falling for this bullshit.
Speak for yourself. https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2606.html
Copyright Notice
Copyright (C) The Internet Society (1999). All Rights Reserved.
RFC 2606 - Reserved Top Level DNS Names - June 1999
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2606.html#section-3
3. Reserved Example Second Level Domain Names
The Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) also currently has the following second level domain names reserved which can be used as examples.
example.com example.net example.org
So, until 1999 when RFC2606 came out, there was no official guidance on it.
hth
Not really. It's been mentioned already (although minus the link to RFC2606) and is wrong.
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 02:07:06 -0700 Ron via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
ac via Talk wrote on 2025-08-25 23:28:
So, to test these guys, I just said "valid" And it tells me:
easy@example.com ❌ This is valid. No tricks here, just easing you into it. F*cking idiots.
Really?
Yes, really. Anyone starting with a question where both answers could be somewhat correct is an idiot. Then, lets get into the WHY... this is not for email servers. --> only someone tech ignorant will disagree. This is made for php/java/python/etc script kiddies to write apps filtering "valid" email addresses. Which is a whole new DUMB itself - Because logic : They filter for valid email addresses BUT they never seem to actually VALIDATE (and accept non validation) of email accounts. *DUH* therefore top quality idiots.
The email address is valid in it's format but invalid in terms of RFC is the correct answer.
Again, it's poor form to publish existing or potentially existing email addresses or phone numbers.
poor form is probably the smallest real issue here...
So, it looks like they find an ambigious reason to push their POV which is that whoever are jumping through their hoops is just 'wrong'
Whahahaha, WE are all idiots for falling for this bullshit.
Speak for yourself.
I do. And, Since all the American Bullsh1t I am done not calling a cow a cow or a donkey a donkey. You can go right ahead and call a donkey a cow, but still will not change that it is a donkey.
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2606.html
Copyright Notice
Copyright (C) The Internet Society (1999). All Rights Reserved.
RFC 2606 - Reserved Top Level DNS Names - June 1999
https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2606.html#section-3
3. Reserved Example Second Level Domain Names
The Internet Assigned Numbers Authority (IANA) also currently has the following second level domain names reserved which can be used as examples.
example.com example.net example.org
So, until 1999 when RFC2606 came out, there was no official guidance on it.
hth
Not really.
It's been mentioned already (although minus the link to RFC2606) and is wrong.
------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/7LA746B...
ac via Talk wrote on 2025-08-26 02:32:
Really?
Yes, really. Anyone starting with a question where both answers could be somewhat correct is an idiot.
You're the only one acting like an idiot. The site developer made a nice site and put a lot of work into his fun little quiz, and it was quite informative and interesting.
Then, lets get into the WHY...
Let's instead ask, "Why are you coming off as idiotic?" Because you seem to have some kind of superiority complex and are needlessly obnoxious. Like you said, just calling like I see it; not gonna call a donkey a cow.
this is not for email servers. --> only someone tech ignorant will disagree.
No one said it's for email servers - that's irrelevant. And you're again being obnoxious about it.
This is made for php/java/python/etc script kiddies
Get right out of here with the "script kiddies" crap. Like, since you're already on your "high horse", you're invited to go for a ride to somewhere else.
to write apps filtering "valid" email addresses.
Yes, and?
Which is a whole new DUMB itself - Because logic : They filter for valid email addresses BUT they never seem to actually VALIDATE (and accept non validation) of email accounts.
I'm not even sure what point you are trying to make. Maybe it needs more all-caps. Trying to validate user input is always better than not trying to validate user input. Standard practice is to validate email addresses by sending an email to the address with a link to click which tells the server the email was delivered. An app developer probably wants to *help* the user by ensuring the email address field data is reasonable before the form is submitted, saving having to fill it in a second time or losing a potential user / customer. This can be combined with requiring the email to be entered twice into the form. Also most postfix instances have disable_vrfy_command = yes, so that method of verifying addresses won't work.
*DUH* therefore top quality idiots. You need to take a break from the internet. "Touch grass" as the saying goes.
Children, it is a quiz likely designed to bring out the tantrum in reasonable people. It is not the foundation of the technical universe. Take a breath and ask if it is worth all this energy? Now, that there is actually a story chronicling the launch of Starbucks's pumpkin spice Lat on the Canadian Press website? That is worth some intensity! Smiley face, Karen On Tue, 26 Aug 2025, ac via Talk wrote:
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 03:13:43 -0700 Ron via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote: <snip opinionated crap around here>
*DUH* therefore top quality idiots. You need to take a break from the internet. "Touch grass" as the saying goes.
whahaha, you should take your own advice. ------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/JRMTA74...
poor form is probably the smallest real issue here...
No, poor form has become the ONLY issue here. It's a dumb little throwaway quiz. Cute to some, annoying to others. Fair enough. But repeatedly arguing with it says way more about the complainant than the quiz -- even if you're right. The gratuitous name-calling and insults aimed at anyone who disagrees with you do not help make your point. Don't like the quiz? Say you don't like it, maybe even explain why, then take your cows and donkeys and move along. Please. - Evan
On Tue, 26 Aug 2025 10:31:37 -0400 Evan Leibovitch <evanleibovitch@gmail.com> wrote:
poor form is probably the smallest real issue here...
No, poor form has become the ONLY issue here.
the very real issue is that much of the focus around email harvesting forms and almost everywhere where any email address is collected, only around 15% of these places actually send an email to confirm the permission more so when they hear "nothing" and/or receive no permission or confirmation. we are all losing our privacy and it is actually becoming worse.
It's a dumb little throwaway quiz.
Agreed. But that some idiot spent a lot of time to make this, says a lot about where heads are at and where thought, or lack thereof, is at.
Cute to some, annoying to others. Fair enough. But repeatedly arguing with it says way more about the complainant than the quiz -- even if you're right.
understood and good point.
The gratuitous name-calling and insults aimed at anyone who disagrees with you do not help make your point.
Uhm, no. I did not call anyone any name for disagreeing with me. I called the person who spent their time making the site names. Much like I would do the same for example to the person that designed Tesla cyber Truck doors which fall off... If you disagree with me, or anyone else whom disagreed with me was not called any name?
Don't like the quiz? Say you don't like it, maybe even explain why, then take your cows and donkeys and move along. Please.
So, You say "move along" and Ron ssays "move along" Ever wonder why Linux User Groups are not growing and failing? I guess it is time for me then to move along. I will unsubscribe myself, Have a nice day and cheers
On Tue, Aug 26, 2025 at 11:49 AM ac via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
Don't like the quiz? Say you don't like it, maybe even explain why, then
take your cows and donkeys and move along. Please.
So, You say "move along" and Ron ssays "move along".
Was that really bad advice? "move along" != "go away" It means (at least to me) the thread is exhausted. There are more-useful things to talk about. Many. In years past I'd have made a dumb historical reference but these days Godwin's Law is moot. I see that Andre has unsubscribed. Unfortunate. I hope he'll reconsider. Ever wonder why Linux User Groups are not growing and failing?
Actually, as part of the leadership of one of the few remaining North American LUGs I have given that question a not-insignificant level of analysis and research. If anyone cares for a definitely-not-exhaustive list of some of the answers, here are some of my findings: - While we here spend *way* too much energy on email (and not just this thread), it's become legacy tech whether you like it or not. My kids only use email for legal and formal communications and my grandkids have no idea what email even is. We created a GTALUG Discord channel but very few regulars have signed up. Reddits and Twitches and Meetups and even Telegram groups are having no problem attracting well-populated conversations, providing the next generation with its social engagement hit. One can decry that lack of personal contact but the trend is (at least right now IMO) unavoidable. - Three traditionally important user group functions are in steep decline: 1) Advocacy; except for the consumer desktop, Linux and FOSS have won -- from embedded to supercomputers; it powers the world's Internet and now its AI. Microsoft is one of the top kernel contributors. In other words, there's far less to fight for these days. 2) Installation help; Linux is now easy enough to install, and YouTube instructions sufficiently plentiful, that Installfests and similar activities are no longer needed. 3) Linux news and mentoring; With YouTube channels, blogs and now AI chats abounding, one is more likely to get a solution to their niche problem on the interwebs than from our smaller community. Having said all that, I still believe in the value of LUGs or I wouldn't be here. But I do need to state that there's more than a little "adapt or die" that needs to be done or this will indeed be a steady decline. Much depends on the will of everyone reading this. The current path, without adaptation, is indeed downhill, and it's taken more than insulting an Internet quiz about email to get us to the current situation. What is *not* turning people away from user communities is sharp language. I find Reddit to more often than not be a cesspool where heat overwhelms light. Yet the users come and they stay. And they bitch. And they bitch about those who bitch. Etc. - Evan PS: Sorry, Karen, but to me pumpkin spice *anything* is an abomination to the senses. But to each their own...
Problems with email are - it gets buried very quickly - you can only read/see one email at a time - difficult to scan through and ignore irrelevant emails - once it's in your Inbox, it's difficult to ignore. Since we already have website, maybe web-based forum, using Drupal or something, could be the answer for "modern" user base. On 2025-08-26 14:09, Evan Leibovitch via Talk wrote:
On Tue, Aug 26, 2025 at 11:49 AM ac via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org Ever wonder why Linux User Groups are not growing and failing?
Actually, as part of the leadership of one of the few remaining North American LUGs I have given that question a not-insignificant level of analysis and research.
If anyone cares for a definitely-not-exhaustive list of some of the answers, here are some of my findings:
* While we here spend *way* too much energy on email (and not just this thread), it's become legacy tech whether you like it or not. My kids only use email for legal and formal communications and my grandkids have no idea what email even is. We created a GTALUG Discord channel but very few regulars have signed up. Reddits and Twitches and Meetups and even Telegram groups are having no problem attracting well-populated conversations, providing the next generation with its social engagement hit. One can decry that lack of personal contact but the trend is (at least right now IMO) unavoidable.
* Three traditionally important user group functions are in steep decline:
1) Advocacy; except for the consumer desktop, Linux and FOSS have won -- from embedded to supercomputers; it powers the world's Internet and now its AI. Microsoft is one of the top kernel contributors. In other words, there's far less to fight for these days.
2) Installation help; Linux is now easy enough to install, and YouTube instructions sufficiently plentiful, that Installfests and similar activities are no longer needed.
3) Linux news and mentoring; With YouTube channels, blogs and now AI chats abounding, one is more likely to get a solution to their niche problem on the interwebs than from our smaller community.
Having said all that, I still believe in the value of LUGs or I wouldn't be here. But I do need to state that there's more than a little "adapt or die" that needs to be done or this will indeed be a steady decline. Much depends on the will of everyone reading this. The current path, without adaptation, is indeed downhill, and it's taken more than insulting an Internet quiz about email to get us to the current situation.
What is *not* turning people away from user communities is sharp language. I find Reddit to more often than not be a cesspool where heat overwhelms light. Yet the users come and they stay. And they bitch. And they bitch about those who bitch. Etc.
- Evan
PS: Sorry, Karen, but to me pumpkin spice /anything/ is an abomination to the senses. But to each their own...
------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/GJZ3RIK...
On Tue, Aug 26, 2025 at 04:26:56PM -0400, William Park via Talk wrote:
Problems with email are - it gets buried very quickly - you can only read/see one email at a time - difficult to scan through and ignore irrelevant emails - once it's in your Inbox, it's difficult to ignore.
Since we already have website, maybe web-based forum, using Drupal or something, could be the answer for "modern" user base.
Strangely what you list as problems in most cases I consider desirable features. I like that I know I won't miss a message, I can read them all, threaded to keep a topic together. Web forums and things like reddit are horrible and I find it impossible to catch up on what I haven't seen yet. -- Len Sorensen
I agree with Len. Granted, I am reading with my ears, at around 375 400 words a minute. Also I use pine or alpine for emails. Still, I have no issues sorting topics, reading at least the subject lines of several emails at once, and so forth. To be sure, sometimes things get buried if I am busy, I just found a surprise cash birthday gift from a friend more than a week after my birthday. Have no issues ignoring some things, this inbox alone has over 31k of them. Still, if I had a dollar for every time I went back to an old email from a mailing list, or a prior exchange work wise, I would never need to play the lottery again. My tools help me stay organized, and speaking personally most other places like reddit have blocked the third party access that used to make them open to innovation..like Linux command line tools for them. Karen On Tue, 26 Aug 2025, Lennart Sorensen via Talk wrote:
On Tue, Aug 26, 2025 at 04:26:56PM -0400, William Park via Talk wrote:
Problems with email are - it gets buried very quickly - you can only read/see one email at a time - difficult to scan through and ignore irrelevant emails - once it's in your Inbox, it's difficult to ignore.
Since we already have website, maybe web-based forum, using Drupal or something, could be the answer for "modern" user base.
Strangely what you list as problems in most cases I consider desirable features.
I like that I know I won't miss a message, I can read them all, threaded to keep a topic together. Web forums and things like reddit are horrible and I find it impossible to catch up on what I haven't seen yet.
-- Len Sorensen ------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/VJKQTOI...
Unfortunately I find this kind of thread truly, truly depressing. When most responses are "well, this works for me so screw everyone else", I despair for the future of GTALUG. I was serious when I said I believe that we are in an adapt-or-die phase, but nobody seems willing to adapt or in any way leave their comfort zone. The email system is staggeringly hard to migrate and maintain and I am deeply grateful to Ron, Hugh and Kevin for their roles in this; but their talent is rare and not easily replaced should they move on. I have personally spoken to other LUG leaders who watched helplessly as their membership literally died off without any care -- let alone plan -- regarding succession or attracting a new generation. (We are far from alone in the FOSS world with this problem.) Are we on this same path? There will always be email lists, as Karen suggested, but there will be ever-fewer live LUG events aimed at non-developers. Never mind growth; GTALUG already has a critical shortage of people willing to help maintain the group in its current state, find speakers or even make a presentation themselves. Without some new support it seems inevitable that the monthly calls will be just round tables, the usual suspects are burning out and no replacements are in sight. Somebody please offer a cause for optimism. - Evan On Tue, Aug 26, 2025 at 9:48 PM Lennart Sorensen via Talk < talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
Strangely what you list as problems in most cases I consider desirable features.
Evan Leibovitch via Talk wrote on 2025-08-26 21:10:
I have personally spoken to other LUG leaders who watched helplessly as their membership literally died off without any care -- let alone plan -- regarding succession or attracting a new generation. (We are far from alone in the FOSS world with this problem.) Are we on this same path?
Yes. But... This thread has gone in many divergent directions with approximately 35 messages, so there's life left in the patient and sometimes there's even vitality. As long as the culture doesn't shift to a bunch of ossified curmudgeons bemoaning all new technology since ~Y2K, or spewing derision at programmers that don't use $language with $compiler, there's still value here.
There will always be email lists, as Karen suggested, but there will be ever-fewer live LUG events aimed at non-developers. Never mind growth; GTALUG already has a critical shortage of people willing to help maintain the group in its current state, find speakers or even make a presentation themselves. Without some new support it seems inevitable that the monthly calls will be just round tables, the usual suspects are burning out and no replacements are in sight.
Somebody please offer a cause for optimism.
I'll try. I've attended one in-person meeting in the past year+ (VanLUG). I've cut *way* back on my weekly+ online / hybrid meetings in the past several months. Yet, I get more Linux news & commentary than ever. Podcasts & YouTube to the rescue. There's Dave's YSAP YouTube channel with its deep dives into bash. Lately I've finally overcome my ... mild distaste(?) of Brodie Robertson's YouTube channel, so I get his take on what he finds in the Linux world. Often his takes are discussions of someone else's posts, so the net is fairly wide with multiple sides of issues presented. I find out about new things and events, I sometimes follow links to "do my own research", I have content to post here & elsewhere, and it's pretty good. I sometimes read but do not ever post in the YouTube comments, but there is a thriving community, and YouTube keeps recommending other tech channels. The LUG provides me the interaction with other enthusiasts. Also, Late Night Linux family of podcasts covers news, developer topics (Linux Devtime), cloud tech (Hybrid Cloud Show), systems admin (2.5admins.com aka 2½ Admins -- a great podcast), general tech topics of interest from former Canonical employees and devs (Linux Matters). There is a deep and broad pool of talent having conversations that I get to listen in on, just like a LUG meeting but with more convenience. i.e. Alan Pope who was on the snaps team - he's very knowledgeable and quite a nice character. Hearing him talk about them has tempered my view on snaps greatly. As a radio junky from decades ago, it feels like a bunch of favourite radio shows but more convenient, and a tiny bit of the parasocial aspects one gets from listening to some nice people talk. They feel kind of like friends that I haven't exactly met. So, Linux is going strong, there are lots of venues for discussion still. I'll keep posting tidbits I find on these other sites and hopefully spark some conversations here and drive some traffic to those sites I find so valuable.
Evan Leibovitch via Talk said on Wed, 27 Aug 2025 00:10:30 -0400
The email system is staggeringly hard to migrate and maintain and I am deeply grateful to Ron, Hugh and Kevin for their roles in this; but their talent is rare and not easily replaced should they move on.
NOWWWWW we agree. "The email system is staggeringly hard to migrate and maintain". Let's concentrate on that. A mailing list is a place where people can each add ideas, so that the whole becomes much greater than the sum of the parts. This is the purpose of a mailing list: Nothing more, and nothing less. History tells us this is not achieved with forums or walled gardens (what's happened to all those "facebook groups" dedicated to specific technologies. Also, for a group that still has in person meetings, the mailing list augments those meetings before and after the meeting. And the email system is staggeringly hard to migrate and maintain, so in the long run it's unsustainable. The question is what we replace it with and how soon. We had this exact conversation, but without the "nobody uses email anymore", on GoLUG. The thread is called "Mailing list, long term", and the first message of the thread is: https://golug.org/pipermail/golug_golug.org/2025-August/000558.html Just keep going down through the thread. This is 2025, so we don't need to use UUCP and all that X500 or whatever and other "one server might be off" workarounds needed in the 20th century, so our task is *greatly* simplified. Read the thread. You'll see the arguments for and against. But I agree with you: Email based mailing lists won't last much longer. I'd like this to be an opportunity for improvement, not a move to a workflow that's more of a hassle, and certainly not to a walled garden (just try migrating *that*). SteveT Steve Litt http://444domains.com
On 2025-08-27 00:10, Evan Leibovitch via Talk wrote:
Unfortunately I find this kind of thread truly, truly depressing.
When most responses are "well, this works for me so screw everyone else", I despair for the future of GTALUG. Somebody please offer a cause for optimism.
- Evan
Not sure what to say, exactly. But I'm fairly new to attending & participating in GTALUG and I find it fine. But I've adapted to many communities and many niches. I like that GTALUG is: - about any topic relating to Linux (pretty wide umbrella) - truly community run, no sales pitch or 50+ uninterested job seekers eating pizza Despite a recent response being "stop worrying about them & focus on us", I do think GTALUG could do a couple things: Experiment with an app like Zulip. It's thread based but still comes closer to the modern Discord & Slack style expectations. Experiment with a free instance & potentially a self-hosted. Also, be more public. If a community wants to do their thing and be proud of it, sometimes you attract more people by showing them how much fun you're having. That means posting content on pixelfed, mastodon, or wherever content from the meetups. Also, I recently told a colleague I met at the Ubuntu meetup about this group. He was unaware it existed. To make matters worse, he went online and the website still said it's in person, where it was clear on the mailing list that it's online only. That to me says that the community is about just as walled off in the mailing list as Discord or Zulip. The last thing I'll say is that sometimes there's success in shutting down. For example, I participate heavily in the Network Automation Forum. Their mission is to host conferences & a community to drive Network Automation from ~20% to ~80% + . Once they do that, they intend to shut down as it's their sole mission. To which, communities can break off into their niches, which the 20% already enjoys today (large enterprise, isp/csp, hyperscalars, etc.) If you consider that, is it fair to say that LUGs did what they were supposed to do... and many folks got nerd sniped to make Linux what it is today. Warm regards, -- Mark Prosser // E: mark@zealnetworks.ca // W: https://zealnetworks.ca
This struggle that GTALUG and other LUGs are facing is not limited to LUGs. It is also a challenge with any volunteer-based group. Even faith-based orgs that have a large client base but cannot attract the doers to help outreach etc. Having said that - there are two key challenges and solutions: (1) effective communication; (2) welcoming culture. This is a challenge I see with the linux community. I follow a few on social media. The negative is: there is a core very vocal tech-focussed nerdy group that is condescending and off putting to the broader non-linux community that does not engender linux to them. The message is: if you are not part of the cool crowd then we dont want you. This has to stop. Then there is another group that is extremely helpful and tries to assist whenever they can in solving basic user challenges in a very respectful manner. Here basic is VERY basic such as compatible software. The limiting factor is lack of in-person time as there is only so much you can do via chat etc. Both 1 and 2 go hand-in-hand. Effective comms can range from tech to the politics of FOSS (why it's important to have open source) especially in the age of AI etc. This then opens the door to anyone whose main interest is anything in-between. We need lots of champions to attract diverse members. cheers Sam On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 9:44 AM Mark Prosser via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2025-08-27 00:10, Evan Leibovitch via Talk wrote:
Unfortunately I find this kind of thread truly, truly depressing.
When most responses are "well, this works for me so screw everyone else", I despair for the future of GTALUG. Somebody please offer a cause for optimism.
- Evan
Not sure what to say, exactly. But I'm fairly new to attending & participating in GTALUG and I find it fine. But I've adapted to many communities and many niches.
I like that GTALUG is:
- about any topic relating to Linux (pretty wide umbrella) - truly community run, no sales pitch or 50+ uninterested job seekers eating pizza
Despite a recent response being "stop worrying about them & focus on us", I do think GTALUG could do a couple things:
Experiment with an app like Zulip. It's thread based but still comes closer to the modern Discord & Slack style expectations. Experiment with a free instance & potentially a self-hosted.
Also, be more public. If a community wants to do their thing and be proud of it, sometimes you attract more people by showing them how much fun you're having. That means posting content on pixelfed, mastodon, or wherever content from the meetups.
Also, I recently told a colleague I met at the Ubuntu meetup about this group. He was unaware it existed. To make matters worse, he went online and the website still said it's in person, where it was clear on the mailing list that it's online only. That to me says that the community is about just as walled off in the mailing list as Discord or Zulip.
The last thing I'll say is that sometimes there's success in shutting down. For example, I participate heavily in the Network Automation Forum. Their mission is to host conferences & a community to drive Network Automation from ~20% to ~80% + . Once they do that, they intend to shut down as it's their sole mission. To which, communities can break off into their niches, which the 20% already enjoys today (large enterprise, isp/csp, hyperscalars, etc.) If you consider that, is it fair to say that LUGs did what they were supposed to do... and many folks got nerd sniped to make Linux what it is today.
Warm regards,
-- Mark Prosser // E: mark@zealnetworks.ca // W: https://zealnetworks.ca ------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/KYU6IY4...
William Park via Talk said on Tue, 26 Aug 2025 16:26:56 -0400
Problems with email are - it gets buried very quickly Not if the mailing list has its own folder - you can only read/see one email at a time Not if you open the email as its own window - difficult to scan through and ignore irrelevant emails Not if the mailing list has its own folder - once it's in your Inbox, it's difficult to ignore. It never hits your Inbox if the mailing list has its own folder
The preceding list starts with: "Problems with email are" We're not talking about interactions between lots of users for the benefit of everyone. Email's only role is a handy way of getting everyone together.
Since we already have website, maybe web-based forum, using Drupal or something, could be the answer for "modern" user base.
Forums have been around for 40 years, and somehow never got a majority of attention from technical groups. Perhaps that's because you have to go hunting instead of having posts come to you. As a last subtopic, here's a quote from Barry Fishman while discussing a mailing list: "My biggest problems with some large projects like Gnome, is they spend so much effort on meeting the perceived needs of users that they don't have, they seem to forget the needs of users they already have." To his quote I'd add that it isn't only large projects. Sometimes it seems like *every* group contains some people so invested in attracting the mythical "non technical user", or "granny", or "GenZ user", none of whom is likely to migrate to Linux no matter what hoops we jump through, that those invested people advocate moves that alienate existing group members. Want to replace email based mailing lists? Fine. But do it with something that's an improvement, not a "forum" or a walled garden or something with a 10 page fine print TOS. SteveT Steve Litt http://444domains.com
1. We are not growing. That is the problem. I personally don't know the answer. - Probably because there is no money to it. That is, those who actually makes money using Linux are few and advanced. Not for ordinary guys. - Probably because nothing interesting to do with Linux. Yes, you can talk about embedded boards (Odroid, BeagleBone, Raspberry), but how many people actually do soldering nowdays. Even "robotic", you don't need Linux background, though it's easier, not because of Linux, but because of DIY experience. - in-person meeting is missing or difficult. So, you can't really get anything started and going. I live in Mississauga, and I'm not going to waste 4 hours round-trip to crime infested downtown Toronto. Not in the evening. Maybe during weekend daytime. 2. Some projects we can think about: - building drones -- I think we have DIY skills, collectively. Just need focus and money. Maybe, some government grants? - robotic education -- this is something I'm interested. But, no Linux here, really. Visual Studio and Visual Basic are all you need. But, Linux will be involved in "robotic integration", because you need scripting for the integration side. - ... - as last resort, make "porn" using open source software, and advertise what we used. No expertise whatsoever. But, I will hold the light. Who knows, we may fight over money... On 2025-08-27 01:29, Steve Litt via Talk wrote:
William Park via Talk said on Tue, 26 Aug 2025 16:26:56 -0400
Problems with email are - it gets buried very quickly Not if the mailing list has its own folder - you can only read/see one email at a time Not if you open the email as its own window - difficult to scan through and ignore irrelevant emails Not if the mailing list has its own folder - once it's in your Inbox, it's difficult to ignore. It never hits your Inbox if the mailing list has its own folder
The preceding list starts with: "Problems with email are"
We're not talking about interactions between lots of users for the benefit of everyone. Email's only role is a handy way of getting everyone together.
Since we already have website, maybe web-based forum, using Drupal or something, could be the answer for "modern" user base.
Forums have been around for 40 years, and somehow never got a majority of attention from technical groups. Perhaps that's because you have to go hunting instead of having posts come to you.
As a last subtopic, here's a quote from Barry Fishman while discussing a mailing list:
"My biggest problems with some large projects like Gnome, is they spend so much effort on meeting the perceived needs of users that they don't have, they seem to forget the needs of users they already have."
To his quote I'd add that it isn't only large projects. Sometimes it seems like *every* group contains some people so invested in attracting the mythical "non technical user", or "granny", or "GenZ user", none of whom is likely to migrate to Linux no matter what hoops we jump through, that those invested people advocate moves that alienate existing group members.
Want to replace email based mailing lists? Fine. But do it with something that's an improvement, not a "forum" or a walled garden or something with a 10 page fine print TOS.
SteveT
Steve Litt
------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/TDBUTM4...
William Park wrote:
- as last resort, make "porn" using open source software, and advertise what we used. No expertise whatsoever. But, I will hold the light. Who knows, we may fight over money...
There is an active group around a pair of apps called makehuman and blender, which create and animate 3D graphic models of people and other things. Trouble is, they don't require Linux; most of the group seem to use Windows and Apple. (Under Linux, the current version of makehuman gets shot down by the current version of Wayland.) So porn might not wind up growing a Linux users' group.
On 2025-08-27 13:32, William Park via Talk wrote:
- in-person meeting is missing or difficult. So, you can't really get anything started and going. I live in Mississauga, and I'm not going to waste 4 hours round-trip to crime infested downtown Toronto. Not in the evening. Maybe during weekend daytime.
lol, crime infested Toronto. Anyway, it sounds like GTALUG should have rotating meetings actually around the GTA. Perhaps the Mississauga Library & various other community centres & Libraries would be willing to host. Warm regards, -- Mark Prosser // E: mark@zealnetworks.ca // W: https://zealnetworks.ca
On 2025-08-27 13:32, William Park via Talk wrote:
- in-person meeting is missing or difficult. So, you can't really get anything started and going. I live in Mississauga, and I'm not going to waste 4 hours round-trip to crime infested downtown Toronto. Not in the evening. Maybe during weekend daytime.
lol, crime infested Toronto.
Anyway, it sounds like GTALUG should have rotating meetings actually around the GTA. Perhaps the Mississauga Library & various other community centres & Libraries would be willing to host. That's another problem. Venue. Long ago, I hosted meetings in Mississauga. It was in restaurant (difficult to do anything other than eat, since it's not our space) and in Seneca campus (stopped after the guy who was at the school left). Library costs money, for room and
On 2025-08-27 14:09, Mark Prosser via Talk wrote: parking. As your base shrinks, your presentations also shrink, because the few eager people get tired very fast. Right now, our host is Ryerson University. Maybe we can work with them on some projects. They must have itch that we can scratch for them.
William Park wrote:
Problems with email are
Since we already have website, maybe web-based forum, using Drupal or something, could be the answer for "modern" user base.
We already have this through our archive software! You can choose which interface you prefer (I prefer email). Ron BC showed us in a whirlwind tour of our new website. Just to test it, I'm replying via this interface. How I did it: - follow the link to an archive of the message I am replying to. It's at the bottom of the email copy of the message (This would not be necessary if I were reading directly from the archive web interface) - log in to the list software. This might require creating an account, this time only. - follow the archeve link from the email again. Why: because logging in etc. probably lost the page you want. - hit the reply button Now I'll find out if this message shows up in list email.
Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
William Park wrote:
Problems with email are
Since we already have website, maybe web-based forum, using Drupal or something, could be the answer for "modern" user base. We already have this through our archive software! You can choose which interface you prefer (I prefer email).
Ron BC showed us in a whirlwind tour of our new website.
Just to test it, I'm replying via this interface.
How I did it:
- follow the link to an archive of the message I am replying to. It's at the bottom of the email copy of the message (This would not be necessary if I were reading directly from the archive web interface)
- log in to the list software. This might require creating an account, this time only.
- follow the archeve link from the email again. Why: because logging in etc. probably lost the page you want.
- hit the reply button
Now I'll find out if this message shows up in list email.
I'm typing this on web interface. 1. There is no option to display one post per line. I have to read the entire text for all posts. The posts are "indented" inside the thread, but after few posts, the indentation becomes meaningless. Also, when subject changes (like this one), then it's treasure hunt. 2. There is no sort option. For a long thread (like this one) with multiple branches, date sort makes more sense.
William Park via Talk wrote on 2025-08-28 22:20:
I'm typing this on web interface.
Good to see it's working to some degree.
1. There is no option to display one post per line. I have to read the entire text for all posts. The posts are "indented" inside the thread, but after few posts, the indentation becomes meaningless. Also, when subject changes (like this one), then it's treasure hunt.
Yeah, it's probably not meant to be a full replacement for being on the list and using whatever is one's chosen email client. It's excellent for searching archives though. Recently struggled with Mailman2 archive searching and it is *impossible*. With any luck, the archive has been indexed *and* what one is seeking is unique enough to easily find.
2. There is no sort option. For a long thread (like this one) with multiple branches, date sort makes more sense.
If one goes to the top message of a thread, underneath the voting & font icons is a link to "Show replies by thread" or "Show replies by date".
https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/thread/XO57F5MC...
The difference isn't dramatic at a glance.
On Mon, Aug 25, 2025 at 8:27 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via Talk < talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
From: Ron via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
A tip when going into this, "Valid" can mean "Was Once Valid per RFC".
I started the test. I disagree with their answer to the first question, so I gave up.
easy@example.com
I say "invalid" because example.com is a reserved domain. They say "valid".
I didn't get that pedantic because clearly they were going for testing on formatting rather than content. Some of the later examples, including some valid ones, are clearly ridiculous email destinations. (Won't say more, that would be spoiling....)
As described in RFC 2606 and RFC 6761, a number of domains such as example.com and example.org are maintained for documentation purposes. These domains may be used as illustrative examples in documents without prior coordination with us. They are not available for registration or transfer.
They do, however, seem perfectly suitable for a silly test with domains nobody is expected to actually use. The website it's hosted on is a domain under .WTF for heaven's sake. Oh, BTW, 15. -- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56
On Sun, Aug 24, 2025 at 10:22:02PM -0700, Ron via Talk wrote:
A tip when going into this, "Valid" can mean "Was Once Valid per RFC".
What's your score?
100% == liar
I got 13/21. That's some messed up stuff. -- Len Sorensen
On Mon, Aug 25, 2025 at 02:05:08PM -0400, wrote:
On Sun, Aug 24, 2025 at 10:22:02PM -0700, Ron via Talk wrote:
A tip when going into this, "Valid" can mean "Was Once Valid per RFC".
What's your score?
100% == liar
I got 13/21. That's some messed up stuff.
And Hugh must have missed the part where it says "If it was _ever_ permitted, it counts as valid", so since example.com was only made reserved much much later, it would certainly have counted as a valid email address at some point. So the test is entirely consistent based on that rule that they state. -- Len Sorensen
On Tue, Aug 26, 2025 at 9:05 PM Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net> wrote:
I started a discussion on the Debian mailing list about your question. One of your points, a decline in email lists, absolutely does not ring true for Debian..there is traffic here daily.
I don't doubt that, but consider the audience. By definition this is a self-selected group already comfortable using email so its members are comfortable with the medium. What you won't hear -- and never will -- is from all the people who are NOT there because they don't like email. But also consider that the issue I raised is not the decline of email lists, but of Linux user groups as we know them. The in-person component. There used to be LUGs scattered around the continent; now the number of ones remaining can be counted on one hand. Beyond the one annual Debconf -- mainly for developers, not end-users -- very few local in-person user events remain. The Toronto one <https://www.nongnu.org/thug/> hasn't updated its website since 2003; heck, its tech is even more legacy than email, IRC. As I indicated, the use of legacy communications (ie,.email) is but one of many reasons for the decline. I stand behind my analysis. - Evan
On Wed, Aug 27, 2025 at 6:44 PM Karen Lewellen <klewellen@shellworld.net> wrote:
Evan, One comment from the Debian discussion of this topic is that Linux itself has gotten too easy to use and install.
That was one of the specific bullet points in my original post on this topic. That certainly is a factor. One of the peaks of activity in Canada happened September 26, 1998 when LUGs across the country participated in the National Installfest, holding open houses and helping install Linux on any computers people would bring in. TLUG (as GTALUG was known pre-incorporation) hosted events both at Seneca's Don Mills campus and at UofT. I was very proud to have been one of the coordinators of that event. But another factor in the decline of the utility of LUGs was the Internet and specifically YouTube. Installation tutorials have been plentiful there for a long time, so the need to wait for a monthly meeting that might be some distance away was greatly reduced. One can just type their installation question into Google's (now Gemini-enhanced) search engine and it will offer blogs and vlogs with answers. Has Linux largely killed the need for lugs in your view?
There are two distinct factors at play: - As discussed above, installation and troubleshooting no longer demand in-person, real-time responses from a volunteer. - The ubiquity of Linux across the computing world, except for the consumer desktop, has eliminated the passion component; there is little advocacy left to do. We've won. Microsoft, once the main obstacle and denigrator of Linux, is now a top kernel contributor and has made interoperability far easier. Even games, the final frontier of incompatibility, are now working with Linux at a scale unimaginable by the original developers of Wine. One never hears of the free-software-versus-open-source arguments anymore because nobody cares; outside of Debian and a few scattered outposts you don't even see the terms "GNU/Linux" or "FLOSS" much anymore; the dogmatism that underlies such terminology is now simply boring.
I might add speaking personally that I wonder how your other sources of information meet the in person human aspect?
I may be wrong, but I see it as a generational thing as I view the world of tech first through the eyes of my children and now my grandchildren. Attitudes have shifted dramatically IMO regarding privacy and centralization. Major global data breaches are met with a shrug, much of the population seems to have no problem with foreign apps scraping everything on their mobile device, and VPNs are more of a tool for evading geoblocking than to protect communications. Person-to-person communications has suffered dramatically on a global scale, and LUGs are but one casualty of that. Everything from dating to job interviews has suffered immensely. Long before the arrival of AI people were trusting tech and the people found through tech for personal advice and companionship. I shudder when I hear some of my grandkids' friends assert that "influencer" is a legitimate career goal. One is reminded that the movie "Idiocracy" was made back in 2006. Its prediction of society's direction is far too close to reality than I'd like. So are too many episodes of Black Mirror. - Evan
Given the numbers of people likely around your grandchildren's age turning to ai for human companionship, and that loneliness is becoming so much of a problem that governments are creating ministries for it, likely not very well.
Karen
participants (13)
-
ac -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Evan Leibovitch -
Hugh Redelmeier
-
Karen Lewellen -
Lennart Sorensen -
Mark Prosser -
mwilson＠Vex.Net -
opengeometry＠yahoo.ca -
Ron -
Samuel Kaharabata -
Steve Litt -
William Park