Was Re: Heads up: Ubuntu 21.10 kills your desktop icons now - keyboards
On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 6:59 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2021-10-20 11:03, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
snip
I've just switched to xubuntu. I think it uses XFCE. So far (10 minutes in) it mostly works. It does fail on one thing, though:
Let me alt+tab between the windows.
I can't seem to do that. And I can't cycle between workspaces, either. I hope it's not because I'm using an Apple keyboard. It's the least disappointing keyboard I've tried, but Linux barely understands it.
Is it maybe not so much that Linux doesn't understand the keyboards but that the keyboard manufacturers are making such junk that Linux just struggles to understand the signals? I've been using ergonomic keyboards for some about 20 years. Started with a logitech (IIRC) and then was forced to move to the M$ 4000 as they were the only game left in the 'reasonable' market. The last one is a Kensington but the last 3 M$ and this Kensington - - - they're real cheap POS! Its gotten to where 24 months is a great lifetime for a keyboard. I'm a fairly quick touch typist but I'm also seriously multi-lingual so a good keyboard is quite important. Crap - - - the old manual typewriters were far easier on me than these new items!! To get something that is going to last a bit better - - - is the only option the quite pricey items where they use the mechanical switches? Suggestions - - - - TIA
On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 06:07:52AM -0500, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
To get something that is going to last a bit better - - - is the only option the quite pricey items where they use the mechanical switches?
Short answer: Yes. I replaced my keyboard a few years back with a Das Keyboard (somewhere around ~$100). It was worth the price. Now I can type all day without getting fatigued or RSI, and it just plain feels better. Of course YMMV, but I found that buying higher-end keyboards made a great difference in my usage, habits, and productivity. -- Peter King peter.king@utoronto.ca Department of Philosophy 170 St. George Street #521 The University of Toronto (416)-946-3170 ofc Toronto, ON M5R 2M8 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42
On 2021-10-21 10:18 a.m., Peter King via talk wrote:
To get something that is going to last a bit better - - - is the only option the quite pricey items where they use the mechanical switches?
Short answer: Yes.
I replaced my keyboard a few years back with a Das Keyboard (somewhere around ~$100). It was worth the price. Now I can type all day without getting fatigued or RSI, and it just plain feels better. Of course YMMV, but I found that buying higher-end keyboards made a great difference in my usage, habits, and productivity.
I use an IBM model M keyboard. I bought a few of them years ago, for $5 each. They are excellent keyboards and built like a tank. There is a company in the U.S. making new ones and they even have a Linux version, with a Tux key.
I use an IBM model M keyboard. I bought a few of them years ago, for $5 each. They are excellent keyboards and built like a tank. There is a company in the U.S. making new ones and they even have a Linux version, with a Tux key.
And they come in black, now, too, with a choice of USB or PS/2 connector. <https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Classic> Not $5 but not bad. There are no specific Linux keyboards, but they do sell Linux keycaps <https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/LinTuxSet>that can replace the Windows keys for those who want it. - Evan
I have had good success with Redragon keyboards - they're built like tanks but they are very reasonably priced. Knowing what colour of key you like is important (I like loud and clicky), but you can get a solid keyboard for less than $50, which is an outstanding price. They tend to come with key pullers and spare switches, which is a great touch. On Thu., Oct. 21, 2021, 14:26 Evan Leibovitch via talk, <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I use an IBM model M keyboard. I bought a few of them years ago, for $5
each. They are excellent keyboards and built like a tank. There is a company in the U.S. making new ones and they even have a Linux version, with a Tux key.
And they come in black, now, too, with a choice of USB or PS/2 connector. <https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Classic>
Not $5 but not bad.
There are no specific Linux keyboards, but they do sell Linux keycaps <https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/LinTuxSet>that can replace the Windows keys for those who want it. - Evan
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 2021-10-21 2:25 p.m., Evan Leibovitch wrote:
There are no specific Linux keyboards, but they do sell Linux keycaps <https://www.pckeyboard.com/page/product/LinTuxSet>that can replace the Windows keys for those who want it.
IIRC, the Linux version is an option when you order.
"The last one is a Kensington but the last 3 M$ and this Kensington - - - they're real cheap POS! Its gotten to where 24 months is a great lifetime for a keyboard. " This is the trend for almost everything, and has been for quite a number of years. Our throwaway society seems to want this quality level of products. On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 at 07:08, o1bigtenor via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Wed, Oct 20, 2021 at 6:59 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk < talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2021-10-20 11:03, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
snip
I've just switched to xubuntu. I think it uses XFCE. So far (10 minutes in) it mostly works. It does fail on one thing, though:
Let me alt+tab between the windows.
I can't seem to do that. And I can't cycle between workspaces, either. I hope it's not because I'm using an Apple keyboard. It's the least disappointing keyboard I've tried, but Linux barely understands it.
Is it maybe not so much that Linux doesn't understand the keyboards but that the keyboard manufacturers are making such junk that Linux just struggles to understand the signals?
I've been using ergonomic keyboards for some about 20 years. Started with a logitech (IIRC) and then was forced to move to the M$ 4000 as they were the only game left in the 'reasonable' market. The last one is a Kensington but the last 3 M$ and this Kensington - - - they're real cheap POS! Its gotten to where 24 months is a great lifetime for a keyboard.
I'm a fairly quick touch typist but I'm also seriously multi-lingual so a good keyboard is quite important. Crap - - - the old manual typewriters were far easier on me than these new items!!
To get something that is going to last a bit better - - - is the only option the quite pricey items where they use the mechanical switches? Suggestions - - - -
TIA --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 at 07:09, o1bigtenor via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Is it maybe not so much that Linux doesn't understand the keyboards but that the keyboard manufacturers are making such junk that Linux just struggles to understand the signals?
I certainly hope not. Most keyboards have standardized on keys, with the exception of media keys and recent gamer-focused additions such as wheels.
To get something that is going to last a bit better - - - is the only option the quite pricey items where they use the mechanical switches? Suggestions - - - -
In my experience, good keyboards can be found but they're off the beaten path. The emergence of high-end gaming on PCs has led to a quest for keyboards that are super-responsive and comfortable for long periods. In the fanatic search to decrease latency, some KBs have even reverted to the old PS2 hardware interface instead of USB (for motherboards that support it). Some will advertise what "colour" of Cherry switches they use, to accomodate preferences regarding noise versus key travel etc. As a result, you now have quality keyboards made by companies catering to PC modders -- my daily-use KB is made by Cooler Master, a company usually known for its PC cases and CPU fans. In my experiences most of these run in the $75-$125 range, with the greatest selection at speciality component stores like Canada Computers or Newegg. Way more expensive than the crap that gets shipped with PCs, but far less than what specialty keyboards have sold for. And of all the peripherals on the PC this is one of the ones that you interact with the most, so it's worth a liitle more investment IMO. HTH - Evan
| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | The emergence of high-end gaming on PCs has led to a quest for | keyboards that are super-responsive and comfortable for long periods. Yeah. That seems like the best place to look. Beware: I've found their goals are not completely aligned with mine. Here are some. One feature that I don't care about is rainbow coloured lights for the keys. Benign, but you are paying for this. On mine (a Razer Blackwidow Ultimate -- love the names), I've got a green light per key, solidly on unless I install a daemon to change that. Another is "tenkeyless" which means "without numeric keypad". I use the numeric keypad and don't want to lose it. Another is low-latency: I've never noticed keyboard latency. Another is: ugly seems to be valued. All support n-key rollover, for large n. This requires sending multiple USB packets per keystroke. This in turn confuses the firmware on a couple of our machines: if we wish to adjust firmware settings, we have to plug in a different keyboard. As you can imagine, that took some effort to figure out. There are many web pages that describe the colours of switches. <https://geargaminghub.com/cherry-mx-switches/> My wife likes "blue" keys (noisy and tactile). I like "brown" keys (less noisy but tactile). If you care a lot, you may care about the company that produced the switches. I haven't bothered to sudy this aspect.
On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 2:41 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
| The emergence of high-end gaming on PCs has led to a quest for | keyboards that are super-responsive and comfortable for long periods.
Yeah. That seems like the best place to look.
Beware: I've found their goals are not completely aligned with mine. Here are some.
One feature that I don't care about is rainbow coloured lights for the keys. Benign, but you are paying for this. On mine (a Razer Blackwidow Ultimate -- love the names), I've got a green light per key, solidly on unless I install a daemon to change that.
Another is "tenkeyless" which means "without numeric keypad". I use the numeric keypad and don't want to lose it.
Another is low-latency: I've never noticed keyboard latency.
Another is: ugly seems to be valued.
All support n-key rollover, for large n. This requires sending multiple USB packets per keystroke. This in turn confuses the firmware on a couple of our machines: if we wish to adjust firmware settings, we have to plug in a different keyboard. As you can imagine, that took some effort to figure out.
There are many web pages that describe the colours of switches. <https://geargaminghub.com/cherry-mx-switches/>
My wife likes "blue" keys (noisy and tactile). I like "brown" keys (less noisy but tactile).
If you care a lot, you may care about the company that produced the switches. I haven't bothered to sudy this aspect.
Interesting comments from all of the responders so far. Is anyone using an ergonomic keyboard from this group. The old rectangular keyboard makes my hands ache at the thought of using only this. I have some cheap keyboards gotten with machine purchases - - - my working keyboard for anything more than a few keystrokes is an ergonomic version. I'm about 60 cm across the shoulders so a keyboard that's some 35 cm just isn't comfortable. I also like my numeric keypad - - - - do a lot of entries on that for business use and would like to have it part of the keyboard if at all possible. I have used the mechanical keys in a very long time - - - think I would prefer less noise rather than more but for high quality would like give on that! Re: gaming - - - - I'm having too fun fun and use far too much time on my system without playing any games - - - tend to relax with a book (most often a physical copy too). Thanking one and all for their input!!!!!!!!! Regards
On Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 16:40 o1bigtenor via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 2:41 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk < talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
| The emergence of high-end gaming on PCs has led to a quest for | keyboards that are super-responsive and comfortable for long periods.
Yeah. That seems like the best place to look.
Beware: I've found their goals are not completely aligned with mine. Here are some.
One feature that I don't care about is rainbow coloured lights for the keys. Benign, but you are paying for this. On mine (a Razer Blackwidow Ultimate -- love the names), I've got a green light per key, solidly on unless I install a daemon to change that.
Another is "tenkeyless" which means "without numeric keypad". I use the numeric keypad and don't want to lose it.
Another is low-latency: I've never noticed keyboard latency.
Another is: ugly seems to be valued.
All support n-key rollover, for large n. This requires sending multiple USB packets per keystroke. This in turn confuses the firmware on a couple of our machines: if we wish to adjust firmware settings, we have to plug in a different keyboard. As you can imagine, that took some effort to figure out.
There are many web pages that describe the colours of switches. <https://geargaminghub.com/cherry-mx-switches/>
My wife likes "blue" keys (noisy and tactile). I like "brown" keys (less noisy but tactile).
If you care a lot, you may care about the company that produced the switches. I haven't bothered to sudy this aspect.
Interesting comments from all of the responders so far. Is anyone using an ergonomic keyboard from this group. The old rectangular keyboard makes my hands ache at the thought of using only this. I have some cheap keyboards gotten with machine purchases - - - my working keyboard for anything more than a few keystrokes is an ergonomic version. I'm about 60 cm across the shoulders so a keyboard that's some 35 cm just isn't comfortable.
I also like my numeric keypad - - - - do a lot of entries on that for business use and would like to have it part of the keyboard if at all possible.
I have used the mechanical keys in a very long time - - - think I would prefer less noise rather than more but for high quality would like give on that!
Re: gaming - - - - I'm having too fun fun and use far too much time on my system without playing any games - - - tend to relax with a book (most often a physical copy too).
I switched to a split keyboard about a year ago, a Kinesis freestyle pro, and after a few month learning curve, I honestly can't imagine switching back. My shoulders feel so much better after a day of typing that I can hardly believe it. It has quiet mechanical switches that feel nice and responsive and should be fine for open concept offices. Not the cheapest, especially once the tilting kit and wrist rests were added in, but my posture is worth it. -jason
I'm about 60 cm across the shoulders so a keyboard that's some 35 cm just isn't comfortable.
I may be 35 cm across the shoulders, that probably explains how I can work using the Thinkpad default keyboard... I recommend buying a good keyboard and mouse that feels comfortable, even when they are expensive. Not crazy expensive, but the upper class priced ones. It's almost the entire interface with the computer, so our life gets better when we have good quality gear. My current computer has a touchscreen that I never use, except accidentally and I hate when it happens. I have some friends with mechanical keyboards that cost as much as my car, but make them happy, so good for them. I have a PS2 Model M here somewhere, but I need an USB-to-PS2 adapter to use it so it's in a box now. And my current temporary work desk is too small for it, so the default keyboard is all I have. Good thing I don't hate the T490 keyboard nor the T430 keyboard on my personal notebook. Mauro https://www.maurosouza.com - registered Linux User: 294521 Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. Em qui., 21 de out. de 2021 às 18:05, Jason Shaw via talk <talk@gtalug.org> escreveu:
On Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 16:40 o1bigtenor via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 2:41 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk < talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
| The emergence of high-end gaming on PCs has led to a quest for | keyboards that are super-responsive and comfortable for long periods.
Yeah. That seems like the best place to look.
Beware: I've found their goals are not completely aligned with mine. Here are some.
One feature that I don't care about is rainbow coloured lights for the keys. Benign, but you are paying for this. On mine (a Razer Blackwidow Ultimate -- love the names), I've got a green light per key, solidly on unless I install a daemon to change that.
Another is "tenkeyless" which means "without numeric keypad". I use the numeric keypad and don't want to lose it.
Another is low-latency: I've never noticed keyboard latency.
Another is: ugly seems to be valued.
All support n-key rollover, for large n. This requires sending multiple USB packets per keystroke. This in turn confuses the firmware on a couple of our machines: if we wish to adjust firmware settings, we have to plug in a different keyboard. As you can imagine, that took some effort to figure out.
There are many web pages that describe the colours of switches. <https://geargaminghub.com/cherry-mx-switches/>
My wife likes "blue" keys (noisy and tactile). I like "brown" keys (less noisy but tactile).
If you care a lot, you may care about the company that produced the switches. I haven't bothered to sudy this aspect.
Interesting comments from all of the responders so far. Is anyone using an ergonomic keyboard from this group. The old rectangular keyboard makes my hands ache at the thought of using only this. I have some cheap keyboards gotten with machine purchases - - - my working keyboard for anything more than a few keystrokes is an ergonomic version. I'm about 60 cm across the shoulders so a keyboard that's some 35 cm just isn't comfortable.
I also like my numeric keypad - - - - do a lot of entries on that for business use and would like to have it part of the keyboard if at all possible.
I have used the mechanical keys in a very long time - - - think I would prefer less noise rather than more but for high quality would like give on that!
Re: gaming - - - - I'm having too fun fun and use far too much time on my system without playing any games - - - tend to relax with a book (most often a physical copy too).
I switched to a split keyboard about a year ago, a Kinesis freestyle pro, and after a few month learning curve, I honestly can't imagine switching back. My shoulders feel so much better after a day of typing that I can hardly believe it. It has quiet mechanical switches that feel nice and responsive and should be fine for open concept offices.
Not the cheapest, especially once the tilting kit and wrist rests were added in, but my posture is worth it.
-jason --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 4:05 PM Jason Shaw <grazer@gmail.com> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 21, 2021, 16:40 o1bigtenor via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 2:41 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk < talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
| The emergence of high-end gaming on PCs has led to a quest for | keyboards that are super-responsive and comfortable for long periods.
Yeah. That seems like the best place to look.
Beware: I've found their goals are not completely aligned with mine. Here are some.
One feature that I don't care about is rainbow coloured lights for the keys. Benign, but you are paying for this. On mine (a Razer Blackwidow Ultimate -- love the names), I've got a green light per key, solidly on unless I install a daemon to change that.
Another is "tenkeyless" which means "without numeric keypad". I use the numeric keypad and don't want to lose it.
Another is low-latency: I've never noticed keyboard latency.
Another is: ugly seems to be valued.
All support n-key rollover, for large n. This requires sending multiple USB packets per keystroke. This in turn confuses the firmware on a couple of our machines: if we wish to adjust firmware settings, we have to plug in a different keyboard. As you can imagine, that took some effort to figure out.
There are many web pages that describe the colours of switches.
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My wife likes "blue" keys (noisy and tactile). I like "brown" keys (less noisy but tactile).
If you care a lot, you may care about the company that produced the switches. I haven't bothered to sudy this aspect.
Interesting comments from all of the responders so far. Is anyone using an ergonomic keyboard from this group. The old rectangular keyboard makes my hands ache at the thought of using only this. I have some cheap keyboards gotten with machine purchases - - - my working keyboard for anything more than a few keystrokes is an ergonomic version. I'm about 60 cm across the shoulders so a keyboard that's some 35 cm just isn't comfortable.
I also like my numeric keypad - - - - do a lot of entries on that for business use and would like to have it part of the keyboard if at all possible.
I have used the mechanical keys in a very long time - - - think I would prefer less noise rather than more but for high quality would like give on that!
Re: gaming - - - - I'm having too fun fun and use far too much time on my system without playing any games - - - tend to relax with a book (most often a physical copy too).
I switched to a split keyboard about a year ago, a Kinesis freestyle pro, and after a few month learning curve, I honestly can't imagine switching back. My shoulders feel so much better after a day of typing that I can hardly believe it. It has quiet mechanical switches that feel nice and responsive and should be fine for open concept offices.
Not the cheapest, especially once the tilting kit and wrist rests were added in, but my posture is worth it.
Hmmmmmmmmmmm - - - - had you used an ergonomic keyboard previously?
TIA
On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 at 16:40, o1bigtenor via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 2:41 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
| The emergence of high-end gaming on PCs has led to a quest for | keyboards that are super-responsive and comfortable for long periods.
Yeah. That seems like the best place to look.
Beware: I've found their goals are not completely aligned with mine. Here are some.
One feature that I don't care about is rainbow coloured lights for the keys. Benign, but you are paying for this. On mine (a Razer Blackwidow Ultimate -- love the names), I've got a green light per key, solidly on unless I install a daemon to change that.
Another is "tenkeyless" which means "without numeric keypad". I use the numeric keypad and don't want to lose it.
Another is low-latency: I've never noticed keyboard latency.
Another is: ugly seems to be valued.
All support n-key rollover, for large n. This requires sending multiple USB packets per keystroke. This in turn confuses the firmware on a couple of our machines: if we wish to adjust firmware settings, we have to plug in a different keyboard. As you can imagine, that took some effort to figure out.
There are many web pages that describe the colours of switches. <https://geargaminghub.com/cherry-mx-switches/>
My wife likes "blue" keys (noisy and tactile). I like "brown" keys (less noisy but tactile).
If you care a lot, you may care about the company that produced the switches. I haven't bothered to sudy this aspect.
Interesting comments from all of the responders so far. Is anyone using an ergonomic keyboard from this group. The old rectangular keyboard makes my hands ache at the thought of using only this. I have some cheap keyboards gotten with machine purchases - - - my working keyboard for anything more than a few keystrokes is an ergonomic version. I'm about 60 cm across the shoulders so a keyboard that's some 35 cm just isn't comfortable.
I also like my numeric keypad - - - - do a lot of entries on that for business use and would like to have it part of the keyboard if at all possible.
I have used the mechanical keys in a very long time - - - think I would prefer less noise rather than more but for high quality would like give on that!
Re: gaming - - - - I'm having too fun fun and use far too much time on my system without playing any games - - - tend to relax with a book (most often a physical copy too).
Thanking one and all for their input!!!!!!!!!
There appear to be a lot of definitions of what "ergonomic" means when it comes to keyboards. I tend to the most extreme example: I own three (working) Kinesis Advantage keyboards. The Advantage2 can be had for $400-$450 Canadian - not cheap. They come with Cherry brown switches, but I have a habit of retrofitting them with Cherry blues - which makes them noisier and more expensive. Everybody is recommending the keyboard(s) they love ... I have a CoolerMaster with Cherry Blues, and several IBM model Ms, and have had many other types of "ergonomic" keyboards over the years. I love the feel of the switches in both the CoolerMaster and the model Ms, but I find I need the two halves of the keyboard farther apart for comfort. I also prefer vertical columns of keys - as opposed to the now totally unnecessary leftward slant of key columns on almost all modern keyboards. I've experimented with keyboards a lot to end up where I am: the Kinesis Advantage took a month to adjust to, but has been worth it ... for me. It's my daily driver both at home and at work. You have to make your own call on these things. A note about gaming keyboards: gamers seem to tend to prefer low activation force, linear keys (Cherry Blacks or Cherry Reds). Most people who type for a living (as opposed to gaming) seem to prefer "tactile" keys, which is quite different from the "linear" keys which don't have any feedback at all until they bottom out. I hate linears (but again - personal taste). And then there's the "clicky" thing: the noise the IBM model M makes can be enough to clear a small room. Some people really really hate that noise. I get that, but I still love the feel of those things. Further reading (my intro to keyboard layouts and key types): https://www.gilesorr.com/blog/computer-keyboards.html -- Giles https://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com
On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 12:24 PM Giles Orr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 at 16:40, o1bigtenor via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Thu, Oct 21, 2021 at 2:41 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <
talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
<<<snipped>>> Thanking one and all for their input!!!!!!!!!
There appear to be a lot of definitions of what "ergonomic" means when it comes to keyboards. I tend to the most extreme example: I own three (working) Kinesis Advantage keyboards. The Advantage2 can be had for $400-$450 Canadian - not cheap. They come with Cherry brown switches, but I have a habit of retrofitting them with Cherry blues - which makes them noisier and more expensive.
Everybody is recommending the keyboard(s) they love ... I have a CoolerMaster with Cherry Blues, and several IBM model Ms, and have had many other types of "ergonomic" keyboards over the years. I love the feel of the switches in both the CoolerMaster and the model Ms, but I find I need the two halves of the keyboard farther apart for comfort. I also prefer vertical columns of keys - as opposed to the now totally unnecessary leftward slant of key columns on almost all modern keyboards. I've experimented with keyboards a lot to end up where I am: the Kinesis Advantage took a month to adjust to, but has been worth it ... for me. It's my daily driver both at home and at work. You have to make your own call on these things.
A note about gaming keyboards: gamers seem to tend to prefer low activation force, linear keys (Cherry Blacks or Cherry Reds). Most people who type for a living (as opposed to gaming) seem to prefer "tactile" keys, which is quite different from the "linear" keys which don't have any feedback at all until they bottom out. I hate linears (but again - personal taste). And then there's the "clicky" thing: the noise the IBM model M makes can be enough to clear a small room. Some people really really hate that noise. I get that, but I still love the feel of those things.
Further reading (my intro to keyboard layouts and key types): https://www.gilesorr.com/blog/computer-keyboards.html
Thanks for that Giles. Keyboards are a very personal choice, and what's right for one user isn't going to be right for another. Personally, I use a ThinkPad X1 Carbon quite regularly and have for ~10 years, and love the touchpoint (red nub), so even my external keyboard for a long time was the ThinkPad TrackPoint kb ( https://www.lenovo.com/ca/en/accessories-and-monitors/keyboards-and-mice/key...). Over time though, my posture was suffering and my wrists were sore at the end of a workday. Combined with a personal accident that resulted in some permanent fingertip damage on my dominant hand, I needed something with better ergonomics, so I took the plunge on a split style, mechanical keyboard, and can't imagine going back. The added benefit of having the desk area immediately in front of me wide open is great too. I would like to try an ortholinear split keyboard at some point, but have no real desire to spend a month or two re-learning to type again. -jason
On Fri, 22 Oct 2021 at 12:44, Jason Shaw via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 12:24 PM Giles Orr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
There appear to be a lot of definitions of what "ergonomic" means when it comes to keyboards. I tend to the most extreme example: I own three (working) Kinesis Advantage keyboards. The Advantage2 can be had for $400-$450 Canadian - not cheap. They come with Cherry brown switches, but I have a habit of retrofitting them with Cherry blues - which makes them noisier and more expensive.
Everybody is recommending the keyboard(s) they love ... I have a CoolerMaster with Cherry Blues, and several IBM model Ms, and have had many other types of "ergonomic" keyboards over the years. I love the feel of the switches in both the CoolerMaster and the model Ms, but I find I need the two halves of the keyboard farther apart for comfort. I also prefer vertical columns of keys - as opposed to the now totally unnecessary leftward slant of key columns on almost all modern keyboards. I've experimented with keyboards a lot to end up where I am: the Kinesis Advantage took a month to adjust to, but has been worth it ... for me. It's my daily driver both at home and at work. You have to make your own call on these things.
A note about gaming keyboards: gamers seem to tend to prefer low activation force, linear keys (Cherry Blacks or Cherry Reds). Most people who type for a living (as opposed to gaming) seem to prefer "tactile" keys, which is quite different from the "linear" keys which don't have any feedback at all until they bottom out. I hate linears (but again - personal taste). And then there's the "clicky" thing: the noise the IBM model M makes can be enough to clear a small room. Some people really really hate that noise. I get that, but I still love the feel of those things.
Further reading (my intro to keyboard layouts and key types): https://www.gilesorr.com/blog/computer-keyboards.html
Thanks for that Giles.
Keyboards are a very personal choice, and what's right for one user isn't going to be right for another.
Personally, I use a ThinkPad X1 Carbon quite regularly and have for ~10 years, and love the touchpoint (red nub), so even my external keyboard for a long time was the ThinkPad TrackPoint kb (https://www.lenovo.com/ca/en/accessories-and-monitors/keyboards-and-mice/key...). Over time though, my posture was suffering and my wrists were sore at the end of a workday. Combined with a personal accident that resulted in some permanent fingertip damage on my dominant hand, I needed something with better ergonomics, so I took the plunge on a split style, mechanical keyboard, and can't imagine going back. The added benefit of having the desk area immediately in front of me wide open is great too.
I would like to try an ortholinear split keyboard at some point, but have no real desire to spend a month or two re-learning to type again.
Jason (and Dave), if you can find an "ortholinear" keyboard (and/or split keyboard) that's not a Kinesis or Maltron, you'll find the finger retraining period is actually quite small. The "month" I've been given to quote as my adjustment period for the Kinesis has almost nothing to do with the vertical key columns or the split. What takes so long to adjust to is the weird (but good!) key curve, the repositioned keys, and especially the much-increased use of the thumb. And I know these are the causes because I had a vertical row keyboard before I moved to the Kinesis: the key layout was otherwise traditional, and adjusting to it took only a couple days. I've also found that switching between keyboard layouts is easy now that I know both. I use a Kinesis as a daily driver, but I can switch to a standard keyboard at the drop of a hat. The worst thing I do is occasionally hit the space bar with my left thumb because that's where the Escape key should be (what can I say - a remapping for a hardcore Vim user), and I usually get over that in about ten minutes. I'm going to add a "Hallelujah!" for the Matias placement of the "6" key on the right hand: the vast majority of split keyboards put this on the left, which is incorrect for touch typing. And again a matter of personal taste ... -- Giles https://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com
On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 11:24 AM Giles Orr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Thu, 21 Oct 2021 at 16:40, o1bigtenor via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
snip (trying to keep the length somewhat reasonable!)
There are many web pages that describe the colours of switches. <https://geargaminghub.com/cherry-mx-switches/>
My wife likes "blue" keys (noisy and tactile). I like "brown" keys (less noisy but tactile).
If you care a lot, you may care about the company that produced the switches. I haven't bothered to sudy this aspect.
Interesting comments from all of the responders so far. Is anyone using an ergonomic keyboard from this group. The old rectangular keyboard makes my hands ache at the thought of using only this. I have some cheap keyboards gotten with machine purchases - - - my working keyboard for anything more than a few keystrokes is an ergonomic version. I'm about 60 cm across the shoulders so a keyboard that's some 35 cm just isn't comfortable.
I also like my numeric keypad - - - - do a lot of entries on that for business use and would like to have it part of the keyboard if at all possible.
I have used the mechanical keys in a very long time - - - think I would prefer less noise rather than more but for high quality would like give on that!
Re: gaming - - - - I'm having too fun fun and use far too much time on my system without playing any games - - - tend to relax with a book (most often a physical copy too).
Thanking one and all for their input!!!!!!!!!
There appear to be a lot of definitions of what "ergonomic" means when it comes to keyboards. I tend to the most extreme example: I own three (working) Kinesis Advantage keyboards. The Advantage2 can be had for $400-$450 Canadian - not cheap. They come with Cherry brown switches, but I have a habit of retrofitting them with Cherry blues - which makes them noisier and more expensive.
Everybody is recommending the keyboard(s) they love ... I have a CoolerMaster with Cherry Blues, and several IBM model Ms, and have had many other types of "ergonomic" keyboards over the years. I love the feel of the switches in both the CoolerMaster and the model Ms, but I find I need the two halves of the keyboard farther apart for comfort. I also prefer vertical columns of keys - as opposed to the now totally unnecessary leftward slant of key columns on almost all modern keyboards. I've experimented with keyboards a lot to end up where I am: the Kinesis Advantage took a month to adjust to, but has been worth it ... for me. It's my daily driver both at home and at work. You have to make your own call on these things.
A note about gaming keyboards: gamers seem to tend to prefer low activation force, linear keys (Cherry Blacks or Cherry Reds). Most people who type for a living (as opposed to gaming) seem to prefer "tactile" keys, which is quite different from the "linear" keys which don't have any feedback at all until they bottom out. I hate linears (but again - personal taste). And then there's the "clicky" thing: the noise the IBM model M makes can be enough to clear a small room. Some people really really hate that noise. I get that, but I still love the feel of those things.
Further reading (my intro to keyboard layouts and key types): https://www.gilesorr.com/blog/computer-keyboards.html
Interesting article and thanks for the response!
I learnt my typing skills on a manual typewriter using a 'Gregg typing manual' as a class way back in junior high school. My typing timed tests from those days were well north of 50 wpm - - - - its proved to be quite a useful skill over the years. I am also quite appalled at the total apathy most display regarding their keyboards. It would seem that cheap is the only useful attribute. This is not to say that I 'like' even the idea of the seriously expensive Kinesis models but I've been thinking about them for a couple years already. Wish we didn't get hit so hard at the border when getting them though!!! Regards
I am not the keyboard geek that some of you obviously are, however I would be remiss to not point out a Canadian company: https://matias.ca/ergopro/programmable/ I don’t have their ergo (split) keyboard, but I do have 2 of their keyboards and quite like them. I just got a new iMac with the beautiful colour-coded keyboard, but immediately miss the backlighting of the Matias keyboard. I am not a perfect touch typist, although quite fast. I use my keyboard mostly for programming. This conversation does make me curious about the split keyboard. Is Giles “took a month to get used to it” typical? ../Dave
Thanks for info. Do you have "clicky" or "tactile" keys? On 10/23/21 8:56 AM, David Mason via talk wrote:
I am not the keyboard geek that some of you obviously are, however I would be remiss to not point out a Canadian company:
https://matias.ca/ergopro/programmable/
I don’t have their ergo (split) keyboard, but I do have 2 of their keyboards and quite like them. I just got a new iMac with the beautiful colour-coded keyboard, but immediately miss the backlighting of the Matias keyboard. I am not a perfect touch typist, although quite fast. I use my keyboard mostly for programming.
This conversation does make me curious about the split keyboard. Is Giles “took a month to get used to it” typical?
../Dave
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On Oct 23, 2021, 2:11 PM -0400, William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org>, wrote:
Thanks for info. Do you have "clicky" or "tactile" keys? The Matias keyboard I have is marketed as an Apple replacement, and it has the same feel as the newest Apple keyboard, which means that there is some resistance to the keypress (and the same resistance throughout the keystroke), and there is a bit of a tactile click but it is fairly quiet. There was an issue with key feel for apple (I think laptop) keyboards a few years ago, but I think most people like the current keys (duplicated on my Matias). They may have other key dynamics available, I’m not sure.
Hope that helps. ../Dave
You have to bite the bullet. But, if you're complaining, then you are ready to pay. Right? :-) I currently have Topre's RealForce keyboard with Topre capacitive key. It's the reason I'm still typing to this day. But, my carpal tunnel and tennis elbow are getting worse, and the keyboard is a little too stiff. So, I'm looking for another keyboard in Cherry Brown flavour. But, for you... here are few items to consider. 1. Logitech G613 -- I have it for work. Wireless, built in wrist pad, Logitech's own mechanical brown key, 6 macro keys. Keys are softer than Topre, but keystroke feels cheap. It's not much better than Topre in terms of comfort. 2. Logitech K845 -- cheap mechanical, comes in many colours. Blue (Logitech's version) is the cheapest in Amazon. 3. Logitech G$$$ -- one from their top lineup. They seem to have good reviews, but those reviews are paid and thus always good. 4. Any Cherry Blue/Brown keyboards -- Real Cherrys are expensive, and you can feel the difference. -- On 10/21/21 7:07 AM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
... To get something that is going to last a bit better - - - is the only option the quite pricey items where they use the mechanical switches? Suggestions - - - - ...
participants (12)
-
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
David Mason -
Don Tai -
Evan Leibovitch -
Giles Orr -
James Knott -
Jason Shaw -
Mauro Souza -
o1bigtenor -
Peter King -
William Park -
William Witteman