I just installed Debian 12 on a new laptop and took Gnome as desktop/window manager. I really insist on something more Xerox PARC style. I had been using Xfce, and liked it until (following Debian 10 software updates) it began to act strangely. A few months ago it started to kick up a huge fuss about difficulties starting the Panel after a restart. About 2 weeks back, following an upgrade, the Desktop area stopped displaying anything -- no wallpaper, no icons from the Desktop folder -- just gray. That prompted this move to Debian 12. I might go back to Xfce, and assume my troubles just resulted from being 2 major releases back, but before that, what do other people use and like?
I like Cinnamon and Xfce. I am currently using Xfce everywhere because it's light, fast, and runs well on Linux under Hyper-V (that I am forced to use, enterprise computer). If your Xfce is misbehaving, you could download the sources, build, and use checkinstall to create a .deb file and install it. I've done it a couple times a while ago, and worked. Mauro https://www.maurosouza.com - registered Linux User: 294521 Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 3:18 PM mwilson--- via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I just installed Debian 12 on a new laptop and took Gnome as desktop/window manager.
I really insist on something more Xerox PARC style.
I had been using Xfce, and liked it until (following Debian 10 software updates) it began to act strangely. A few months ago it started to kick up a huge fuss about difficulties starting the Panel after a restart. About 2 weeks back, following an upgrade, the Desktop area stopped displaying anything -- no wallpaper, no icons from the Desktop folder -- just gray. That prompted this move to Debian 12.
I might go back to Xfce, and assume my troubles just resulted from being 2 major releases back, but before that, what do other people use and like?
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On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 15:22:32 -0300 Mauro Souza via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I like Cinnamon and Xfce. I am currently using Xfce everywhere because it's light, fast, and runs well on Linux under Hyper-V (that I am forced to use, enterprise computer).
ooh +1 for me Xfce is light, fast and effective
If your Xfce is misbehaving, you could download the sources, build, and use checkinstall to create a .deb file and install it. I've done it a couple times a while ago, and worked.
agreed! also found this very very easy to do
Mauro https://www.maurosouza.com - registered Linux User: 294521 Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God.
On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 3:18 PM mwilson--- via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I just installed Debian 12 on a new laptop and took Gnome as desktop/window manager.
I really insist on something more Xerox PARC style.
I had been using Xfce, and liked it until (following Debian 10 software updates) it began to act strangely. A few months ago it started to kick up a huge fuss about difficulties starting the Panel after a restart. About 2 weeks back, following an upgrade, the Desktop area stopped displaying anything -- no wallpaper, no icons from the Desktop folder -- just gray. That prompted this move to Debian 12.
I might go back to Xfce, and assume my troubles just resulted from being 2 major releases back, but before that, what do other people use and like?
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
GNOME on Wayland and systemd. My first home OS was IRIX on an Indy. When I started using Linux a couple of years later, I favoured NeXTstep lookalikes (I have a NeXTstation and a cube but didn't get a chance to use them in production). Mike On Tue, Jul 25, 2023 at 2:19 PM mwilson--- via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I just installed Debian 12 on a new laptop and took Gnome as desktop/window manager.
I really insist on something more Xerox PARC style.
I had been using Xfce, and liked it until (following Debian 10 software updates) it began to act strangely. A few months ago it started to kick up a huge fuss about difficulties starting the Panel after a restart. About 2 weeks back, following an upgrade, the Desktop area stopped displaying anything -- no wallpaper, no icons from the Desktop folder -- just gray. That prompted this move to Debian 12.
I might go back to Xfce, and assume my troubles just resulted from being 2 major releases back, but before that, what do other people use and like?
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
mwilson--- via talk wrote on 2023-07-25 11:18:
what do other people use and like?
KDE Plasma. I like having the best tools at my finger tips and KDE has that. A few example follow; by no means a complete list: Best file manager since OS/2's FM/2. File selection addition and removal with single click: no need to ctrl+click. Best console / terminal (konsole), supporting mouse-hover on file paths for previews, etc. Virtual desktop "overview" feature to see & manage my applications and virtual desktops by moving my mouse to a "hot corner" - I still miss the visuals of "desktop cube" but this is actually more useful. And, of course, KDEconnect to integrate my phone into my desktop, allowing me to: * send files seamlessly between devices * share clipboard contents * get notifications on desktop of phone events (incoming calls, SMSs, etc.), mute incoming calls, pause media when calls come in,... * reply to SMSs from the desktop * allow my computer keyboard to be an input device for my phone * "find my phone" by ringing it * see phone's LTE connectivity, battery status, etc. from desktop * open web pages I'm viewing on desktop directly onto phone * etc. I like the enormous amount of configurability, but one does not have to tweak all the options. It's fast and lighter weight than ever before. I have an old computer, but can still afford a few CPU cycles to make my UI/UX beyond pleasant. Runs quickly, looks great. My 2 cents. rb
On 2023-07-25 14:45, BCLUG via talk wrote:
mwilson--- via talk wrote on 2023-07-25 11:18:
what do other people use and like?
KDE Plasma.
+1 on KDE Plasma Wayland I have to echo my support of all the KDE Connect features. But for me, the real wins are all the massive quality of life around mixed monitor + docking station situations. This typically had massive draw backs and caveats under X11, that 'just work' correctly under KDE's wayland implementation. My daily driver is a GPD Pocket 3 [1], a high-performance 11th Gen Intel system, in an 8" form factor. For context, the GPD Pocket 3, has a 1200x1920 panel (portrait) installed at a 90° rotation. Sensor based Auto-rotation from the laptop's sensor works out of the box under KDE wayland implementation. Current X11 doesn't handle per display output UI scaling, so all displays get scaled equally. The GPD's screen is best used at 150% UI Scaling for me, so having extended monitors also scaled at 150% is just aweful. KDE Wayland doesn't suffer from this and does per-display scaling. Additionally I have some high-rez external 8" screens [2] (that also need their own independent UI scaling), with touch input. Touch Screen Assignment also work well from the KDE System Settings GUI. No fiddling with xinput commands or xorg.conf snippets. System Settings => Input Devices => Touchscreen Just select 'Device' and 'Target Display', and your done. The association is remembered through re-connections of the display. [1]: https://wiki.archlinux.org/title/GPD_Pocket_3 [2]: https://www.waveshare.com/8inch-1536x2048-lcd.htm -- Scott Sullivan
On 2023-07-25 14:18, mwilson--- via talk wrote:
I just installed Debian 12 on a new laptop and took Gnome as desktop/window manager. [snip] I might go back to Xfce, and assume my troubles just resulted from being 2 major releases back, but before that, what do other people use and like?
I have been using Gnome 2 (now MATE) for many a year. It may not be fancy but it works (for me). -- Cheers! Kevin. https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | "Nerds make the shiny things that | distract the mouth-breathers, and Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | that's why we're powerful" #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
On Tue, 25 Jul 2023, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:
I have been using Gnome 2 (now MATE) for many a year. It may not be fancy but it works (for me).
If I have to give a Linux desktop to a new user I generally start them with MATE[1]. It's fairly comfortable to anyone who's used to the desktop metaphor. [1] And let's make sure we pronounce it correctly Cheers, Rob
On 2023-07-28 06:33, Robert Brockway wrote:
If I have to give a Linux desktop to a new user I generally start them with MATE[1]. It's fairly comfortable to anyone who's used to the desktop metaphor.
[1] And let's make sure we pronounce it correctly
There is more than one way to pronounce MATE? -- Cheers! Kevin. https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | "Nerds make the shiny things that | distract the mouth-breathers, and Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | that's why we're powerful" #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
On Mon, 31 Jul 2023, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:
There is more than one way to pronounce MATE?
It should be pronounced in the manner of the South American drink it is named after rather than how an English speaker would normally say 'mate'. Good short vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAqzdnNnvSQ Cheers, Rob
If pronounciation was an irritant they would have saved a lot of the hand-wringing by just putting an acute accent on the "e", as in, "MATÉ". Yes, I know it was invented in Argentina where the accent isn't used. But if creators were at all concerned about global pronunciation and knowing there is already a popular use of the spelling in English ... the compromise would have helped. Since language prefers efficiency, the one-syllable version will not go away naturally -- the creators need to care enough to do something about it. Consider how most people (and even dictionaries <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/linux>) pronounce Linux as "Linnicks" even though Linus himself clearly wanted "Leenuks" in a vary short and famous audio clip <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c39QPDTDdXU>. He didn't press the issue and now the "canonical" pronunciation is all but dead. Nanny-scolding and obscure videos won't work. Visual clues in the word itself will. If only developers didn't detest marketing. It's not too late to add the accent. - Evan On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 10:05 AM Robert Brockway via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Mon, 31 Jul 2023, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:
There is more than one way to pronounce MATE?
It should be pronounced in the manner of the South American drink it is named after rather than how an English speaker would normally say 'mate'.
Good short vid:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAqzdnNnvSQ
Cheers,
Rob --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Consider how most people (and even dictionaries <https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/pronunciation/english/linux>) pronounce Linux as "Linnicks" even though Linus himself clearly wanted "Leenuks" in a vary short and famous audio clip Another project with a name that is often mispronounced is KiCad. The
On 2023-07-31 11:43, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote: program origin is French where the 'i' is pronounced like the English letter 'e'. -- Cheers! Kevin. https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | "Nerds make the shiny things that | distract the mouth-breathers, and Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | that's why we're powerful" #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
On 7/31/23 09:32, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:
There is more than one way to pronounce MATE?
Years ago, an Australian friend (anyone else remember Rob Chanter?) was discoursing on the varied pronunciations of that word, ranging from a drawn-out appreciative "maaaate" for the buddy who had just bought you a pint, to a very short and clipped "mate" for someone who was on the verge of being on the other side of a brawl. And it's the word for your coworkers and any other group you're with, a very all-purpose term in that culture with context encoded in pronunciation. And then there's the South American drink by that name, coming out of a totally different linguistic tradition. Anthony
It sounds like some of the problem you were experiencing was with xfdesktop: https://docs.xfce.org/xfce/xfdesktop/start xfce4/xfwm and their components have had some major upgrades in the past couple years after no updates for a long, long time. Idk about debian versioning but maybe there was some incompatibility if you upgraded one but not the other. Try doing it all at once. But if you want something more adventurous, maybe you'd be interested in: Not so Common Desktop Environment (NsCDE) https://github.com/NsCDE/NsCDE good luck! On Tue, Jul 25, 2023, at 2:18 PM, mwilson--- via talk wrote:
I just installed Debian 12 on a new laptop and took Gnome as desktop/window manager.
I really insist on something more Xerox PARC style.
I had been using Xfce, and liked it until (following Debian 10 software updates) it began to act strangely. A few months ago it started to kick up a huge fuss about difficulties starting the Panel after a restart. About 2 weeks back, following an upgrade, the Desktop area stopped displaying anything -- no wallpaper, no icons from the Desktop folder -- just gray. That prompted this move to Debian 12.
I might go back to Xfce, and assume my troubles just resulted from being 2 major releases back, but before that, what do other people use and like?
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Xfce on Debian 11 for MythTv (boots directly to the Myth screen in ~ 10S) KDE on debian 12 on my personal system and laptop On 7/25/23 14:18, mwilson--- via talk wrote:
I just installed Debian 12 on a new laptop and took Gnome as desktop/window manager.
I really insist on something more Xerox PARC style.
I had been using Xfce, and liked it until (following Debian 10 software updates) it began to act strangely. A few months ago it started to kick up a huge fuss about difficulties starting the Panel after a restart. About 2 weeks back, following an upgrade, the Desktop area stopped displaying anything -- no wallpaper, no icons from the Desktop folder -- just gray. That prompted this move to Debian 12.
I might go back to Xfce, and assume my troubles just resulted from being 2 major releases back, but before that, what do other people use and like?
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Michael Galea
On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 16:58:47 -0400 Michael Galea via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Xfce on Debian 11 for MythTv (boots directly to the Myth screen in ~ 10S) KDE on debian 12 on my personal system and laptop
I like xfce and lxde, but I am still running FVWM2. -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
I'm on Slackware which comes with KDE and XFCE. I use KDE, because I'm used to it. I was going to move to Kubuntu, but too lazy... On 2023-07-25 14:18, mwilson--- via talk wrote:
I just installed Debian 12 on a new laptop and took Gnome as desktop/window manager.
I really insist on something more Xerox PARC style.
I had been using Xfce, and liked it until (following Debian 10 software updates) it began to act strangely. A few months ago it started to kick up a huge fuss about difficulties starting the Panel after a restart. About 2 weeks back, following an upgrade, the Desktop area stopped displaying anything -- no wallpaper, no icons from the Desktop folder -- just gray. That prompted this move to Debian 12.
I might go back to Xfce, and assume my troubles just resulted from being 2 major releases back, but before that, what do other people use and like?
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
The only window manager I've found that allows me to configure my desktop the way I want it is WindowMaker. -- Chris F.A. Johnson
On Tue, 25 Jul 2023, mwilson--- via talk wrote:
I might go back to Xfce, and assume my troubles just resulted from being 2 major releases back, but before that, what do other people use and like?
I've been using fvwm since I started using Linux in 1994. Every few years I check out alternatives. I'm still with fvwm. It's still being actively developed, it's powerful and it doesn't break. I'm currently using fvwm2 but I note that Debian 12 has fvwm3. I'll be looking in to switching soonish. Cheers, Rob
On Tue, 25 Jul 2023 at 14:19, mwilson--- via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I just installed Debian 12 on a new laptop and took Gnome as desktop/window manager.
I really insist on something more Xerox PARC style.
I had been using Xfce, and liked it until (following Debian 10 software updates) it began to act strangely. A few months ago it started to kick up a huge fuss about difficulties starting the Panel after a restart. About 2 weeks back, following an upgrade, the Desktop area stopped displaying anything -- no wallpaper, no icons from the Desktop folder -- just gray. That prompted this move to Debian 12.
I might go back to Xfce, and assume my troubles just resulted from being 2 major releases back, but before that, what do other people use and like?
I personally use Openbox. I loathe GNOME. On the rare occasion I want to install a "desktop" rather than just a Window Manager, I usually use LXDE which is the lightest weight of the lot. Its relative simplicity might work for you. If you're interested in window managers (not "desktop environments," per se) I maintain as complete a list as I can manage here: https://gilesorr.com/wm/table.html Apologies for the self-promotion, but it's something I'm interested in. The page isn't well suited to discovery-by-features though, it's more just a list. One odd possibility no one has mentioned is the Trinity Desktop ( http://trinitydesktop.org/ ), which is the continuation of KDE3. I haven't used it, but it's still maintained and it might be of interest in this conversation? -- Giles https://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com
On Wed, 26 Jul 2023, Giles Orr via talk wrote:
Thanks for the link. It's a nice quick reference for WMs that are still being maintained. Cheers, Rob
On Wed, 26 Jul 2023, Giles Orr via talk wrote:
This kind of resource never fails to intrigue me, and it reminds one of the big weak spot of FOSS development that has been with us from the very beginning. In FOSS, developers write stuff that scratches their own itches, which is why we have such a proliferation of window managers (and editors, and source control, and languages, etc.) Yet stuff that is end-user-centric that doesn't scratch any geek itches tends to go unserved or underserved in FOSS, while proprietary solutions prevail because they scratch developer itches with money. Just imagine if a small fraction of the talent used to re-invent all these window managers had put its attention to giving Linux a single fully-functional PDF editor. Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56
| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | In FOSS, developers write stuff that scratches their own itches, which is | why we have such a proliferation of window managers (and editors, and | source control, and languages, etc.) Yet stuff that is end-user-centric | that doesn't scratch any geek itches tends to go unserved or underserved in | FOSS, while proprietary solutions prevail because they scratch developer | itches with money. Just imagine if a small fraction of the talent used to | re-invent all these window managers had put its attention to giving Linux a | single fully-functional PDF editor. You can't push a rope. If you want to work on boring stuff, go ahead. If you want someone else to work on boring stuff, you've got a few tools. Money is the obvious one in our society. That's why most Linux developers work as employees. Could it be that the boring stuff of which you are thinking doesn't actually matter? Or is it a lack of imagination on the part of existing funders? Mapping seems like a lot of boring stuff. Yet Open Streetmaps has done a great job. One element of motivation for that drudgery seems like "gamification". Ditto Wikipedia. ================ One great thing about scratching itches is that the programmer has a great insight into a user's needs. And without a large userbase, radical changes are a lot easier. ================ Editing PDF seems like a repudiation of the purpose of PDF. In the open-source world, one would edit whatever was upstream of the PDF in question. Annotation is probably already handled by FireFox and by evince. I don't know what you actually want. What aspects of a PDF document do you wish to modify? I imagine that a general editor, like one in a word processor, is impossible due structure not being represented in PDF.
Historically, I use whatever the distro puts in front of me. I use GNOME desktop environment in Fedora. I hate investing in customization because in the long term, it all gets washed away. After using DE's for 35 years, I've been subject to a lot of change -- I don't need to seek more. I still use the same text editor as I did 35 years ago.
From the UI side, I find GNOME is pretty reasonable. Simple (on the surface), integrated, maintained, mostly operable without the mouse.
GNOME's performance is fine on machines that aren't too too obsolete (I'm typing this on a decade-old system). It's pretty clunky on a system with a hard drive, but SSDs are so checp that using a hard drive for an OS is dumb anyway. Other desktops might suit me better -- I haven't tried them, much less tried to live with them for enough time to grow comfortable (the real test).
On Wed, 26 Jul 2023, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
I hate investing in customization because in the long term, it all gets washed away.
That's one of the reasons I stuck with a window manager rather than moving to a desktop environment. In most cases to get fvwm2 running I install the package, copy one config file and login. In my view computers should change to suit humans, not the other way around. Cheers, Rob
On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 7:30 PM Robert Brockway via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Jul 2023, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
I hate investing in customization because in the long term, it all gets washed away.
That's one of the reasons I stuck with a window manager rather than moving to a desktop environment. In most cases to get fvwm2 running I install the package, copy one config file and login.
In my view computers should change to suit humans, not the other way around.
So thankful that I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Is there any way to make this louder (so its heard in a greater area?!?!?!? Kudos man kudos!!!!
o1bigtenor via talk wrote on 2023-07-27 03:50:
In my view computers should change to suit humans, not the other way around.
So thankful that I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Is there any way to make this louder
Sounds like you guys hate CLI environments and probably use Siri / Google Assistant / Alexa / *voice* as a near ideal human-like user interface then? Desktop environments take their name and derive the concept from offices in the pre-electronic age. Window managers sound like something only pertinent to computers. Like terminals. Sounds quite un-Linuxy. I say this partially in jest, but also to point out the seeming contradiction in what I inferred as the points being made.
On Thu, Jul 27, 2023 at 1:09 PM BCLUG via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
o1bigtenor via talk wrote on 2023-07-27 03:50:
In my view computers should change to suit humans, not the other way around.
So thankful that I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Is there any way to make this louder
Sounds like you guys hate CLI environments and probably use Siri / Google Assistant / Alexa / *voice* as a near ideal human-like user interface then?
Hmmmmmm - - - - I remember the advertisements early on in microcomputers - - - - you know - - - - "computing your way" implying that an IT department wasn't going to force you to do things the way they wanted. That was considered a great idea - - - - until those same IT departments - - - - now responsible for fleets of microcomputers - - - well - - - they decided that they're the only ones who understand how a computer should be used. You know - - - - where you only have a gui environment - - - or where you only have a cli environment - - - - or where your cli environment stifles flexibility - - - - (shall I go on ?). I do know what those user interfaces are and as I find that even trying to use an actual human to get things done makes for an incredible pita so for me to use something that forces me to do things the way one particular person or 'team' decides to do so - - - - it just ain't going to happen.
Desktop environments take their name and derive the concept from offices in the pre-electronic age. Window managers sound like something only pertinent to computers. Like terminals.
As such the technology makes it easier to work with for most of us. (Except for the idea of 0 being an actual counter as it is in only the computing world.)
Sounds quite un-Linuxy.
What - - - - you're not going to regale us on how you use VT-100 terminals for so very many years as you perfected your use of assembly language?
I say this partially in jest, but also to point out the seeming contradiction in what I inferred as the points being made.
I love contradictions - - - - why do I have to do it that other way all the time? Regards
o1bigtenor wrote on 2023-07-27 14:23:
In my view computers should change to suit humans, not the other way around.
So thankful that I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Is there any way to make this louder
Sounds like you guys hate CLI environments and probably use Siri / Google Assistant / Alexa / *voice* as a near ideal human-like user interface then?
Hmmmmmm - - - - I remember the advertisements early on in microcomputers - - - - you know - - - - "computing your way" implying that an IT department wasn't going to force you to do things the way they wanted. That was considered a great idea - - - - until those same IT departments - - - - now responsible for fleets of microcomputers - - - well - - - they decided that they're the only ones who understand how a computer should be used.
Those IT departments weren't wrong. You may have noticed that the world has changed, and for example, letting users store all their documents all over their PCs is a disaster when it comes to backing up business documents. So, IT removed some options from users, because typical users don't "understand how a computer should be used". Do what you want on your own computers, but at work you cannot store critical documents in C:\WINDOWS\VERYIMPORTANTFINANCIALS\THISMUSTBESAVED.doc
You know - - - - where you only have a gui environment - - - or where you only have a cli environment - - - - or where your cli environment stifles flexibility - - - - (shall I go on ?).
Again, do what you want with *your own* computers. And what's with - - - - the - - - - writing - - - - "style" - - - - ? Is there - - - - a - - - - reason?
Desktop environments take their name and derive the concept from offices in the pre-electronic age. Window managers sound like something only pertinent to computers. Like terminals.
As such the technology makes it easier to work with for most of us. (Except for the idea of 0 being an actual counter as it is in only the computing world.)
I'm confused as to what point you're trying to make now.
Sounds quite un-Linuxy.
What - - - - you're not going to regale us on how you use VT-100 terminals for so very many years as you perfected your use of assembly language?
No, that would be stupid. I'm just pointing out "computers that work like humans" (or "change to suit humans") and "command line interfaces" seem rather mutually exclusive. Humans communicate verbally for the most part until we all learned to type - we changed to work in a more computer-centric manner. And I love working in a CLI. But I'm working in the computer's way, it's not working in a human way. It's highly efficient to know bash, etc., yet shells are rather unlike any human to human communication techniques. Hence my semi-jesting message about how much we really want computers to suit humans, as the computer interfaces that most suit typical humans are anathema to computer geeks and LUG members.
On Thu, Jul 27, 2023 at 5:07 PM BCLUG via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
o1bigtenor wrote on 2023-07-27 14:23:
In my view computers should change to suit humans, not the other way around.
So thankful that I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Is there any way to make this louder
Sounds like you guys hate CLI environments and probably use Siri / Google Assistant / Alexa / *voice* as a near ideal human-like user interface then?
Hmmmmmm - - - - I remember the advertisements early on in microcomputers - - - - you know - - - - "computing your way" implying that an IT department wasn't going to force you to do things the way they wanted. That was considered a great idea - - - - until those same IT departments - - - - now responsible for fleets of microcomputers - - - well - - - they decided that they're the only ones who understand how a computer should be used.
Those IT departments weren't wrong.
Snickering (its the only possible response!).
You may have noticed that the world has changed, and for example, letting users store all their documents all over their PCs is a disaster when it comes to backing up business documents.
So, IT removed some options from users, because typical users don't "understand how a computer should be used".
Nope IT removed almost all options from users because they think that they're the only ones that understand how to use a computer. Its something like the debate between gnome and kde. The debate boils down to how one processes things - - - - ergo - - - how one thinks.
Do what you want on your own computers, but at work you cannot store critical documents in C:\WINDOWS\VERYIMPORTANTFINANCIALS\THISMUSTBESAVED.doc
Interesting example - - - - seems like the staff at the company you work for really have no clue about how to do business. Rescue yourself from such tedium - - - find a better job!
You know - - - - where you only have a gui environment - - - or where you only have a cli environment - - - - or where your cli environment stifles flexibility - - - - (shall I go on ?).
Again, do what you want with *your own* computers.
And what's with - - - - the - - - - writing - - - - "style" - - - - ? Is there - - - - a - - - - reason?
Yes there is - - - have you ever noticed how in speech there is a rhythm to it? Or perhaps you interact seldom with mouth breathers? Its an attempt at massaging written language into a shape closer to that of speech.
Desktop environments take their name and derive the concept from offices in the pre-electronic age. Window managers sound like something only pertinent to computers. Like terminals.
As such the technology makes it easier to work with for most of us. (Except for the idea of 0 being an actual counter as it is in only the computing world.)
I'm confused as to what point you're trying to make now.
Sounds quite un-Linuxy.
What - - - - you're not going to regale us on how you use VT-100 terminals for so very many years as you perfected your use of assembly language?
No, that would be stupid.
I'm just pointing out "computers that work like humans" (or "change to suit humans") and "command line interfaces" seem rather mutually exclusive.
Humans communicate verbally for the most part until we all learned to type - we changed to work in a more computer-centric manner.
And I love working in a CLI. But I'm working in the computer's way, it's not working in a human way.
It's highly efficient to know bash, etc., yet shells are rather unlike any human to human communication techniques.
Hmmmmmmmmmm - - - mathematics, motion control are two areas that come to mind where one can use either a cli or a much more natural language. Whatever it takes to get the job done.
Hence my semi-jesting message about how much we really want computers to suit humans, as the computer interfaces that most suit typical humans are anathema to computer geeks and LUG members.
It might come down to a very different way of looking at things. I suffer from being multi-lingual - - - it is fascinating to me that the first computer that I used was easiest to use along with the widest capabilities - - - - some almost 40 years ago. Even today I find trying to use multiple languages in a document is a right royal pita. Supposedly I can use special characters but I find the still remembered character groupings from the Mac far more intuitive than anything that I've seen in linux - - - - even though linux is available in far more languages than any other system that I know about. But then it seems that programmers don't find it too important to communicate with people - - - - its just more fun to communicate with a computer, and therein lies the rub. Regards
o1bigtenor wrote on 2023-07-27 15:33:
Nope IT removed almost all options from users because they think that they're the only ones that understand how to use a computer. Anyone who's worked IT knows the average user does not understand how to use a computer:
* typing "google" into the search bar instead of the URL bar (when those were separate) * moving their hand to the mouse to click "google.com" in the search results (painful to watch) * storing documents all across the file system instead of on the network share (see previous example) * etc. ad nauseam - the stories are legion and it's indisputable that "the average" computer user does not understand how the things work
And what's with - - - - the - - - - writing - - - - "style" - - - - ? Is there - - - - a - - - - reason?
Yes there is - - - have you ever noticed how in speech there is a rhythm to it? Or perhaps you interact seldom with mouth breathers? Its an attempt at massaging written language into a shape closer to that of speech.
Reads like the writings of someone experiencing a stroke or Tourettes, probably not the effect you're looking for. Also, one usually tries to avoid "mouth breathers". That's considered a Bad Thing™ (unsophisticated).
it is fascinating to me that the first computer that I used was easiest to use along with the widest capabilities - - - - some almost 40 years ago.
Weird. I have a computer that I can speak to and it mostly understands me and speaks back. Harder to get "more human" than that (not that I use it often, but a modern phone has remarkable capabilities). How did that 40 year old computer connect to a network? Could it display images? Support a comprehensive GUI? Contain sensors for acceleration, radio communications, GPS? Was it *really* more capable than today's computers? Hard to believe.
Supposedly I can use special characters
Ï dö nót hâvé ïßūës - trÿ lóökĩñg īńțô "Compose Keys". Alternately, I sometimes speak to my phone to get special characters, then share the clipboard to my computer to paste into documents:
我唔知 唔係難
| From: o1bigtenor via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | (Except for the idea of 0 being an actual counter as it is in only the computing | world.) I think that you are referring to C using 0 as the subscript for the first element of an array. An interesting issue. I agree that 0 should not be an ordinal number. In grade school we called these ordinal Natural Numbers. However mathematicians usually think that 0 is a Natural number. Read the first paragraph of <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_number> Zero is a good cardinal number (for designating the size of sets). In grade school we called them Whole Numbers. Anything more inclusive has zero: integers, rationals, real, imaginary, complex, ... BUT: Any experienced programmer finds the C convention more convenient in many little ways. I think that many mathematicians number elements of sequences starting at 0. The lowest term of a polynomial in x will be the x^0 term. On the other hand, I've not seen a math matrix with a 0 row or column.
I find an interesting-tho-trivial bit of culture shock in going between North America and elsewhere (generally, in my experience): floor designations in buildings. In North America the "first floor" of a building is usually considered to be where the lobby and ground exit is located. Elsewhere, it's usually referred to as the "main floor", and the floor above that is the first floor. Indeed, in elevators of such buildings the "main floor" is often indicated with a zero button (and the basement is "-1" rather than "B"). Maybe there's an anthropology lesson somewhere on how and why these ideas diverged. Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56 On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 3:23 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: o1bigtenor via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
| (Except for the idea of 0 being an actual counter as it is in only the computing | world.)
I think that you are referring to C using 0 as the subscript for the first element of an array.
An interesting issue.
I agree that 0 should not be an ordinal number. In grade school we called these ordinal Natural Numbers. However mathematicians usually think that 0 is a Natural number. Read the first paragraph of <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_number>
Zero is a good cardinal number (for designating the size of sets). In grade school we called them Whole Numbers.
Anything more inclusive has zero: integers, rationals, real, imaginary, complex, ...
BUT:
Any experienced programmer finds the C convention more convenient in many little ways.
I think that many mathematicians number elements of sequences starting at 0.
The lowest term of a polynomial in x will be the x^0 term.
On the other hand, I've not seen a math matrix with a 0 row or column. --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
| From: Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | | I find an interesting-tho-trivial bit of culture shock in going between | North America and elsewhere (generally, in my experience): floor | designations in buildings. I learned this in French class. The main floor was rez-de-chaussée. In those days we were taught Parisian French. I think Quebec uses both systems of numbering floors. Quebec French and French in France are a bit different. One time I was in a little store Metz and overheard an American asking for blueberry jam. She could not communicate this with the shop owner. So I stepped in and offered "le bluet". I knew this from having read labels on items on our breakfast table. Too bad: I only added to the confusion. This is a Quebec French word. In France, it denotes a kind of flower. The correct word in France la myrtille. But that probably denotes a bilberry, a closely related species. (I really don't speak French. Sad.)
On Thu, Jul 27, 2023 at 11:09:37AM -0700, BCLUG via talk wrote:
Sounds like you guys hate CLI environments and probably use Siri / Google Assistant / Alexa / *voice* as a near ideal human-like user interface then?
Desktop environments take their name and derive the concept from offices in the pre-electronic age. Window managers sound like something only pertinent to computers. Like terminals.
Sounds quite un-Linuxy.
I say this partially in jest, but also to point out the seeming contradiction in what I inferred as the points being made.
Personally I want a window manage that lets me arrange my terminal windows (although I mostly run them fullscreen with tabs for each session), lets me open programs (preferable with alf+F2 and typing in what I want), and has a minimize, maxmimize and close botton on the window. I don't care about icons on the desktop (it's always covered up anyhow, so useless place for icons), nor file managers (I have a shell thank you very much). And of course alt+tab has to cycle through windows, preferably in most recently viewed to least recently viewed order. Everything gnome 3 has done is wrong. It's developers have no clue what they are doing and sure don't care about user feedback. They hijacked a project name, threw everything away and started over with a terrible idea of what a desktop should be, with no regard to users. -- Len Sorensen
On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 2:22 PM Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote: Everything gnome 3 has done is wrong. It's developers have no clue what
they are doing and sure don't care about user feedback. They hijacked a project name, threw everything away and started over with a terrible idea of what a desktop should be, with no regard to users.
Maybe they just decided to stop living in the past. It's not for everyone, but it works for some people. Mike
I like Gnome Classic, simple. On Sun, 30 Jul 2023, 15:51 Michael Hill via talk, <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Fri, Jul 28, 2023 at 2:22 PM Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Everything gnome 3 has done is wrong. It's developers have no clue what
they are doing and sure don't care about user feedback. They hijacked a project name, threw everything away and started over with a terrible idea of what a desktop should be, with no regard to users.
Maybe they just decided to stop living in the past. It's not for everyone, but it works for some people.
Mike
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Sun, Jul 30, 2023 at 03:51:26PM -0400, Michael Hill via talk wrote:
Maybe they just decided to stop living in the past. It's not for everyone, but it works for some people.
Just because something has been around a long time doesn't mean it isn't the better way to do something. I remember when windows 8 betas came out, I tried it out. I could not figure out how to close any of their new "metro" apps. I had to go look it up. Who would have guessed you dragged the top of the program down to the bottom of the screen to close it. Yeah brilliant design for an OS used mostly on machines with a mouse, not a touch screen. That's the same idea the gnome developers have. Do everything new ways with no visual clues as to what you can do where and drop what people are used to. Strangely that was of course the first time microsoft had totally changed the UI of windows without giving you an option to revert to the old interface. Unfortunate that they chose to do that at the same time they made their worst interface ever. They could have started a new desktop project and done whatever they wanted. Making gnome 3 totally nothing like gnome 2 on the other hand made no sense. It was not an upgrade of the previous version. -- Len Sorensen
On Mon, 31 Jul 2023, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
Just because something has been around a long time doesn't mean it isn't the better way to do something.
Exactly. I don't care if software is new or old. I just care if it solves my problem or not. As a result my preferred toolset contains software that is very old and in some cases very new. I was in a meeting a couple of years back in which someone was espousing the value of 'make'. A couple of people were speaking as it if quite new. Several people were stunned when I pointed out that make was older than most of the people in the meeting. This comes back to my earlier point about users being able to use different tools and interfaces on Linux at the same time. Why compromise? Rob
On Mon, Jul 31, 2023 at 9:19 AM Lennart Sorensen < lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote: They could have started a new desktop project and done whatever they
wanted. Making gnome 3 totally nothing like gnome 2 on the other hand made no sense. It was not an upgrade of the previous version.
I was first alerted to the initiative when Marcel Gagne posted to say "this is cool" (he has since backtracked). A member of the documentation team posted here to say they were coming to town, and Hugh followed up with more specific location details. I went to Seneca@York and met volunteers from the States, BC, Germany, the UK, Chile, and a couple of locals including the maintainer of dbus. After being involved in the early 2000s downloading and testing GNOME for the Debian effort, I had turned into a passive user of GNOME 2. Getting involved with GNOME 3 turned me back into an enthusiastic user. I use assorted GNOME utilities but mainly Boxes and Firefox. Mike
On Thu, 27 Jul 2023, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
On Wed, Jul 26, 2023 at 7:30 PM Robert Brockway via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
In my view computers should change to suit humans, not the other way around.
So thankful that I'm not the only one who thinks this way. Is there any way to make this louder (so its heard in a greater area?!?!?!?
Good question. We've moved further towards "one size fits all" as the years have passed. This was done partly to make support easier but it's possible to have a default interface and let people customise as well. We can have our cake and eat it too. I think one of the great strengths of *nix is that it doesn't make assumptions about how a person uses the computer. *nix will let different users have different environments *and* let them all use them at the same time. They can even be in different timezones on the same system. I was thinking about the origins of the PC recently. IBM considered using their own 801 CPU. Imagine how different the world might be if they had done that and used even a cut-down Unix system, or another multi-user OS. MP/M (multi-user CP/M) was already available by the time the PC was released. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_801 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP/M Cheers, Rob
participants (21)
-
ac -
Anthony de Boer -
BCLUG -
bitmap -
Chris F.A. Johnson -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Evan Leibovitch -
Giles Orr -
Gron Arthur -
Howard Gibson -
James Knott -
Kevin Cozens -
Lennart Sorensen -
Mauro Souza -
Michael Galea -
Michael Hill -
mwilson＠Vex.Net -
o1bigtenor -
Robert Brockway -
Scott Sullivan -
William Park