Re: [GTALUG] mysterious restarts
I wonder about grid security and whether or not a microgrid can be designed to repel all borders. That is, only allow links to trusted sources. The way things are headed in the IoT, perhaps power source monitoring will detect the harmonic characteristics of each user in a trusted cluster and when combined with the overall harmonics of the grid, this data can be used for quality control and billing, or even equity trading between users. Sent from mobile. On Jun 25, 2016 3:21 AM, "ac via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 11:43:19 -0400 Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 07:39:34PM -0400, Michael Galea via talk wrote:
No, the device is not a UPS. It is a PLC that measures voltages, currents, real and reactive power of a 3-phase service. It provides me the results as IEEE754 32-bit floating point numbers. It's me that truncates to 2 digits. You know I'm sorry I ever implied that the grid wasn't long term accurate at 60 Hz! What I should have said was that in the short term the grid could be quite off 60 Hz but over the longer term it could average out. If I really needed to know the answer to the question of "how much out", I would get ask the PLC to just count cycles and send me the count with a timestamp. That would tell. Well wikipedia claims the grid can be off by up to 10 seconds in north america on this side of the continent. The west and texas allow a lot less. So it can certainly be a bit off for quite a while.
this is a very interesting thread, i frequently ponder personal grid timing and other cycles using various oscillations, until the old 40Hz streak lights up (sync) my life
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
The truth is quite mundane. The security situation is no better or no worse than any other application. I ran a microgrid in in the basement of the Cooper Coo Family center for 6 months last year. It was debian with an outgoing connection firewall. The microgrid made an openvpn connection to our central site. It is invisible. Even then, all the internal applications are passworded. We also use Strongswan VPNs to connect to remote telemetry Nets in the cloud. Nothing new here, nothing sexy. On 06/25/16 08:40, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
I wonder about grid security and whether or not a microgrid can be designed to repel all borders. That is, only allow links to trusted sources.
The way things are headed in the IoT, perhaps power source monitoring will detect the harmonic characteristics of each user in a trusted cluster and when combined with the overall harmonics of the grid, this data can be used for quality control and billing, or even equity trading between users.
Sent from mobile.
On Jun 25, 2016 3:21 AM, "ac via talk" <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 11:43:19 -0400 Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote: > On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 07:39:34PM -0400, Michael Galea via talk > wrote: > > No, the device is not a UPS. It is a PLC that measures voltages, > > currents, real and reactive power of a 3-phase service. It > > provides me the results as IEEE754 32-bit floating point numbers. > > It's me that truncates to 2 digits. > > You know I'm sorry I ever implied that the grid wasn't long term > > accurate at 60 Hz! What I should have said was that in the short > > term the grid could be quite off 60 Hz but over the longer term it > > could average out. > > If I really needed to know the answer to the question of "how much > > out", I would get ask the PLC to just count cycles and send me the > > count with a timestamp. That would tell. > Well wikipedia claims the grid can be off by up to 10 seconds in north > america on this side of the continent. The west and texas allow a > lot less. So it can certainly be a bit off for quite a while. > this is a very interesting thread, i frequently ponder personal grid timing and other cycles using various oscillations, until the old 40Hz streak lights up (sync) my life
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Michael Galea
On Jun 25, 2016 2:55 PM, "Michael Galea via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
The truth is quite mundane. The security situation is no better or no
worse than any other application.
Hey in cybersecurity, one person's mundane truth is another's selections of statistics. It all depends on your perspective regarding the threat.
I ran a microgrid in in the basement of the Cooper Coo Family center for 6 months last year. It was debian with an outgoing connection firewall. The microgrid made an openvpn connection to our central site. It is invisible. Even then, all the internal applications are passworded. We also use Strongswan VPNs to connect to remote telemetry Nets in the cloud. Nothing new here, nothing sexy.
On 06/25/16 08:40, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
I wonder about grid security and whether or not a microgrid can be designed to repel all borders. That is, only allow links to trusted sources.
The way things are headed in the IoT, perhaps power source monitoring will detect the harmonic characteristics of each user in a trusted cluster and when combined with the overall harmonics of the grid, this data can be used for quality control and billing, or even equity trading between users.
Sent from mobile.
On Jun 25, 2016 3:21 AM, "ac via talk" <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:
On Thu, 23 Jun 2016 11:43:19 -0400 Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>>
wrote: > On Wed, Jun 22, 2016 at 07:39:34PM -0400, Michael Galea via talk > wrote: > > No, the device is not a UPS. It is a PLC that measures voltages, > > currents, real and reactive power of a 3-phase service. It > > provides me the results as IEEE754 32-bit floating point
numbers.
> > It's me that truncates to 2 digits. > > You know I'm sorry I ever implied that the grid wasn't long term > > accurate at 60 Hz! What I should have said was that in the
short
> > term the grid could be quite off 60 Hz but over the longer term
it
> > could average out. > > If I really needed to know the answer to the question of "how
much
> > out", I would get ask the PLC to just count cycles and send me
Thats ok, I'm not new and sexy either; still in the diesel generator backup age. I wasn't particularly commenting on the operational state of things. I lived through both big east coast blackouts. These are my impressions. We call it the grid. It's modular, assignable, interruptable and defendable. Other than dropping magnesium strips on the high tension feed, it's robust. It's the nature of its inherent vulnerabilities, which led to the developing of microgrid failover solutions. Mostly for hospitals and military and other institutional settings. With all the current advances in quantum measurement, I just thought it would be interesting if the grid's heuristics could be more automated in order to repel unsigned loads and avoid blackout conditions. Notwithstanding any future microgrid sharing, failover or other, which may come into play in communities in the future. Here's a neat phone grid tap for failover. Keep your phone charged during a blackout. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cUxx-4bUo4Q It is possible that in the future your air conditioner may have to send a bitcion fraction or switch to a micro grid reserve in order to work outside your mains subscription time. the
> > count with a timestamp. That would tell. > Well wikipedia claims the grid can be off by up to 10 seconds in north > america on this side of the continent. The west and texas allow a > lot less. So it can certainly be a bit off for quite a while. > this is a very interesting thread, i frequently ponder personal grid timing and other cycles using various oscillations, until the old
40Hz
streak lights up (sync) my life
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Michael Galea
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Sent from mobile.
On 06/26/2016 10:39 AM, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
Here's a neat phone grid tap for failover. Keep your phone charged during a blackout.
Ummm... Couple of points here. Many people no longer have analog phone lines. Some have VoIP phones or terminals and others rely entirely on cell phones. I have a VoIP terminal that has a built in battery. Other people I know have VoIP without built in battery or only a cell phone. Also, that video mentions using a diode to protect against the ringing voltage. Well, that diode will only protect the voltage regulator from 1 half of the ring cycle, where the voltage goes negative. On the positive half, the regulator will be subject to a peak voltage of about 126V on top of the input DC voltage. That will destroy the regulator and possibly whatever is being charged. So, you will need some means of ensuring the regulator is not exposed to damaging high voltage.
On Jun 26, 2016 10:52 AM, "James Knott" <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
<snip>
126V on top of the input DC voltage. That will destroy the regulator and possibly whatever is being charged. So, you will need some means of ensuring the regulator is not exposed to damaging high voltage.
I liked that he showed the work as a site case. He didn't say your mileage may vary, but it's implied in the way he demonstrated the concept. Probably it's best done by the un-initiated on a dry loop. Or are you saying that a dry loop provides significantly less power for VOIP? I don't know for sure myself. I always assume the last quarter mile is analog, but that may have changed for newer condo and residential home development. Sent from mobile.
On 06/26/2016 11:46 AM, Russell Reiter wrote:
On Jun 26, 2016 10:52 AM, "James Knott" <james.knott@rogers.com <mailto:james.knott@rogers.com>> wrote:
<snip>
126V on top of the input DC voltage. That will destroy the regulator and possibly whatever is being charged. So, you will need some means of ensuring the regulator is not exposed to damaging high voltage.
I liked that he showed the work as a site case. He didn't say your mileage may vary, but it's implied in the way he demonstrated the concept.
Probably it's best done by the un-initiated on a dry loop. Or are you saying that a dry loop provides significantly less power for VOIP?
I don't know what power is provided on dry loops, but I believe there's still "battery" on the line. On a regular phone line, if the device draws enough current, the exchange will consider the line "seized" and not send ringing current on it. If not enough current is drawn, then ringing is possible.
I don't know for sure myself. I always assume the last quarter mile is analog, but that may have changed for newer condo and residential home development.
What's generally referred to as the "last mile" can be anything from right next door to several kilometres. For examples, in an apartment I used to rent, the exchange was just a block away. Here, a couple of blocks. When I was a kid, growing up in Oakville, it was about 3-4 Km and it may be much further elsewhere. BTW, many years ago, before amplifiers, it was possible to make a call from New York to Colorado, before it became too weak.
On 06/26/16 10:39, Russell Reiter wrote:
On Jun 25, 2016 2:55 PM, "Michael Galea via talk" <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:
The truth is quite mundane. The security situation is no better or
no worse than any other application.
Hey in cybersecurity, one person's mundane truth is another's selections of statistics. It all depends on your perspective regarding the threat.
I ran a microgrid in in the basement of the Cooper Coo Family center for 6 months last year. It was debian with an outgoing connection firewall. The microgrid made an openvpn connection to our central site. It is invisible. Even then, all the internal applications are passworded. We also use Strongswan VPNs to connect to remote telemetry Nets in the cloud. Nothing new here, nothing sexy.
Thats ok, I'm not new and sexy either; still in the diesel generator backup age.
I wasn't particularly commenting on the operational state of things.
I lived through both big east coast blackouts. These are my impressions.
We call it the grid. It's modular, assignable, interruptable and defendable. Other than dropping magnesium strips on the high tension feed, it's robust.
It's the nature of its inherent vulnerabilities, which led to the developing of microgrid failover solutions. Mostly for hospitals and military and other institutional settings.
With all the current advances in quantum measurement, I just thought it would be interesting if the grid's heuristics could be more automated in order to repel unsigned loads and avoid blackout conditions.
Notwithstanding any future microgrid sharing, failover or other, which may come into play in communities in the future.
Here's a neat phone grid tap for failover. Keep your phone charged during a blackout.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cUxx-4bUo4Q
It is possible that in the future your air conditioner may have to send a bitcion fraction or switch to a micro grid reserve in order to work outside your mains subscription time.
Yes, what you're speaking of is called transactional energy. The idea is that if you want to run some load, you may be able to get a better rate from the the person down the street. Alternatively, you may gay a better rate for your own energy then the utility is willing to pay. So you will find them, bid for a contract with them and pay for it through a blockchain transaction. The utility will take a small cut, for putting the two of you together supplying the wires between you, and verify the transfer. After all, if you move enough power between yourselves you will exceed the thermal limit of you overhead lines. The utility would be continuously modeling the effects of various disparate power flows on the grid and allowing them when safe to do so. Now, I have to say, if you have ANY experience with electric utilities I would imagine you are positively laughing by now. When one utility CEO was recently asked how they slept at night they replied "Just like a baby, I sleep for two hours and then I cry until morning". -- Michael Galea
On Jun 27, 2016 7:59 PM, "Michael Galea via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 06/26/16 10:39, Russell Reiter wrote:
<snip>
Now, I have to say, if you have ANY experience with electric utilities I would imagine you are positively laughing by now. When one utility CEO was recently asked how they slept at night they replied "Just like a baby, I sleep for two hours and then I cry until morning".
This is the dichotomy of private ownership of public utilities. I rather liked your earlier comment along the line of; in order to break even in an environment which squeezes out the small but innovative operations, you would need to reuse/sell any excess heat generated. On a side note, I believe there was a steam plant downtown which serviced several commercial buildings for heating at one time. I think I also read about a deep water shared cooling project here in the city but I haven't heard anything lately. I guess my point is that; blending technologies happens over time and usually over the objections of the for profit status quo.
-- Michael Galea --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 06/27/2016 08:35 PM, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
On Jun 27, 2016 7:59 PM, "Michael Galea via talk" <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:
On 06/26/16 10:39, Russell Reiter wrote:
<snip>
Now, I have to say, if you have ANY experience with electric utilities I would imagine you are positively laughing by now. When one utility CEO was recently asked how they slept at night they replied "Just like a baby, I sleep for two hours and then I cry until morning".
This is the dichotomy of private ownership of public utilities.
I rather liked your earlier comment along the line of; in order to break even in an environment which squeezes out the small but innovative operations, you would need to reuse/sell any excess heat generated.
On a side note, I believe there was a steam plant downtown which serviced several commercial buildings for heating at one time. I think I also read about a deep water shared cooling project here in the city but I haven't heard anything lately.
Your thinking of Enwave. There are a fair number of buildings using Enwave heating and cooling. I had an office in an Enwave building at Adelaide and Victoria. They ripped out the steam boilers and were using only the steam from Enwave freeing up a bunch of space in the basement for things like backup generators. Enwave also provides the deep lake cold water to areas West of Yonge(as of a few years ago) I would be willing to bet that 151 Front uses Enwave. Enwave also runs a generating facility where the waste heat is used as part of the steam sold to the other buildings.
I guess my point is that; blending technologies happens over time and usually over the objections of the for profit status quo.
-- Michael Galea --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
participants (4)
-
Alvin Starr -
James Knott -
Michael Galea -
Russell Reiter