I have just installed Fedora 43 on my old laptop. Fedora 43 no longer provides X11. On the GDM login window, there is no longer a way to select window managers so that I can launch the FVWM I have been running since 1995, I think. X11 support will be phased out of future Fedora distributions. Apparently X11 is buggy, and no one wants to maintain it. I have spent the last thirty years making FVWM behave exactly the way I want it to. Now, I have to figure out Gnome_4, which I do not particularly like. Maybe I should look at KDE again. There appears to be no way to set up GDM to launch alternate X11 window managers. In the distant past, I have used SDDM to work around GDM's antics, but if X11 is being phased out completely... What happens to X11 applications? I am using LaTeX to prepare documents, and I use Xfig to do graphics. Xfig files can be converted to PostScript, PDF, and PNG from shell scripts and makefiles, so it supports web pages as well as LaTeX. I am using Xreader to read PDF files. I used to use Xpdf. Are there any other X11 applications people insist on running? -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
Howard Gibson via Talk said on Mon, 2 Mar 2026 01:06:07 -0500
I have just installed Fedora 43 on my old laptop. Fedora 43 no longer provides X11.
Leave it to Redhat to eliminate choice.
On the GDM login window, there is no longer a way to select window managers so that I can launch the FVWM I have been running since 1995, I think.
Leave it to Redhat to eliminate choice.
X11 support will be phased out of future Fedora distributions. Apparently X11 is buggy, and no one wants to maintain it.
Leave it to Redhat to use the "buggy/we won't maintain" excuse for eliminating choices. If they're so allergic to "buggy", why do they insist on their pet systemd?
I have spent the last thirty years making FVWM behave exactly the way I want it to. Now, I have to figure out Gnome_4, which I do not particularly like. Maybe I should look at KDE again.
Not a chance. You should switch to a distro that encourages choice, DIY, and customizing your workflow. Don't blame FVWM for this. Think about it this way: How many times are you going to kiss the ring when Redhat says "my way or the highway?"
There appears to be no way to set up GDM to launch alternate X11 window managers. In the distant past, I have used SDDM to work around GDM's antics, but if X11 is being phased out completely...
It's phased out of one family tree of distros.
What happens to X11 applications?
In what timeframe? Eventually, as Wayland finally becomes capable, there will be a slow switch to Wayland, and most applications will, on their own schedules, make the transition. If you mean in the next 5 years, I predict that X11 will still be with us and strongly supported. But not in the Redhat world, because Redhat.
I am using LaTeX to prepare documents,
LaTeX is a CLI application, not an issue. By the way, look at LuaTeX and LuaLaTeX. I like them better.
and I use Xfig to do graphics. Xfig files can be converted to PostScript, PDF, and PNG from shell scripts and makefiles, so it supports web pages as well as LaTeX. I am using Xreader to read PDF files. I used to use Xpdf. Are there any other X11 applications people insist on running?
You can run xfig on Wayland using XWayland. Inkscape is developing a Wayland direct interface, but in 2026 best stability for Inkscape is Xwayland. Bottom line: The slow march away from X11 is not a problem if you don't use a deliberately problematic distro. Red Hat and its descendants, for instance. SteveT Steve Litt http://444domains.com
From: Steve Litt via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
X11 support will be phased out of future Fedora distributions. Apparently X11 is buggy, and no one wants to maintain it.
Leave it to Redhat to use the "buggy/we won't maintain" excuse for eliminating choices. If they're so allergic to "buggy", why do they insist on their pet systemd?
X11 unmaintained. It is foolish to continue using it. Wayland is the replacement, from the same project. Wayland has been stable for years. Anything that requires X11 probably has been unmaintained too. Most applications written for X11 can work under Wayland with the emulation. I take it that the tough things to port are window managers. There are a bunch of compositors (window managers) that do work with Wayland. Found by googling: From our own Giles Orr: The Comprehensive List of Wayland Compositors for Unix <https://www.gilesorr.com/wm/table.html> here's a list of software for Wayland, starting off with compositors: <https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/List_of_software_for_Wayland>
On Mon, 2 Mar 2026 at 11:44, D. Hugh Redelmeier via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
From: Steve Litt via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
X11 support will be phased out of future Fedora distributions. Apparently X11 is buggy, and no one wants to maintain it.
Leave it to Redhat to use the "buggy/we won't maintain" excuse for eliminating choices. If they're so allergic to "buggy", why do they insist on their pet systemd?
X11 unmaintained. It is foolish to continue using it. Wayland is the replacement, from the same project.
Wayland has been stable for years.
Anything that requires X11 probably has been unmaintained too. Most applications written for X11 can work under Wayland with the emulation. I take it that the tough things to port are window managers. There are a bunch of compositors (window managers) that do work with Wayland.
Found by googling:
From our own Giles Orr: The Comprehensive List of Wayland Compositors for Unix <https://www.gilesorr.com/wm/table.html>
Yup, that's out there. :-)
here's a list of software for Wayland, starting off with compositors: <https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/List_of_software_for_Wayland>
I still have some gripes with Wayland myself: - Wayland is more cautious about letting remote machines or other applications take control of the screen. This is probably good, but in practice this means that if you use Input-Leap ( https://github.com/input-leap/input-leap ... descendant of Synergy and Barrier) - which I do, extensively - you can use KDE and Gnome in Wayland, but none of the "alternative" compositors because the connection isn't allowed - in X11, the keyboard layout was configured in one place. In Wayland, it has to be configured in a different way in every single compositor (if they support it at all!) - screen locking is a genuine pain-in-the-ass in some alternative compositors: it used to be "install XScreenSaver and get locking for free" for all your window managers, but Wayland doesn't support screensavers, so again if you want screen-locking without pain, you'd better install KDE or Gnome (If I'm actively wrong about any of these things, feel free to set me right. It will probably make me genuinely happy.) With all that said, and considering where this thread started, I'm still steadily migrating my systems to Wayland. Even Linux has some Borg-like properties: you can resist for a while, but the reality is that eventually you'll have to move to Wayland because - as noted several times in this discussion - pretty much every piece of X11 software in existence is or will soon be unmaintained. Change hurts, but this is technology - there is no painless path (unless Apple's anesthetic ecosystem works for you ... in which case more power to you). -- Giles https://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com
On Mon, 2 Mar 2026 03:35:13 -0500 Steve Litt via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
Howard Gibson via Talk said on Mon, 2 Mar 2026 01:06:07 -0500
I have just installed Fedora 43 on my old laptop. Fedora 43 no longer provides X11.
Leave it to Redhat to eliminate choice.
Steve, Now, it turns out I _can_ launch FVWM. I forgot that the menu does not come up until you type in your user name. Still, their plans for X11 are not good. -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
participants (4)
-
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Giles Orr -
Howard Gibson -
Steve Litt