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OOP, Was: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit
by taavi-LbuTpDkqzNzXI80/IeQp7B2eb7JE58TQ＠public.gmane.org 04 Dec '03

04 Dec '03

On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 11:06:08PM +0200, Peter L. Peres wrote: > On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Greg Franks wrote: > > >>>>> "Marcus" == Marcus Brubaker <marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> writes: > > Marcus> To each their own opinion but if you want to do OOP then > > Marcus> there really isn't a better language out there than Java. > > > > You forgot Smalltalk. Everything is an object, even integers. > > Yes, and the processing overhead for an addition is about the same as for > a square root extraction. Then have a look at Objective-C. It's been used on a couple of platforms (most notable NeXT and OSX, which are debatably the same thing), has lower overhead than Java, and strikes a nice medium between C++ objects and C simplicity. And hey, GCC supports it, so you already have the tools at hand. http://www.toodarkpark.org/computers/objc/ http://developer.apple.com/documentation/Cocoa/Conceptual/ObjectiveC/ -- taa /*eof*/ -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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OOP, Was: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit
by plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg＠public.gmane.org 04 Dec '03

04 Dec '03

On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Greg Franks wrote: > >>>>> "Marcus" == Marcus Brubaker <marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> writes: > Marcus> To each their own opinion but if you want to do OOP then > Marcus> there really isn't a better language out there than Java. > > You forgot Smalltalk. Everything is an object, even integers. Yes, and the processing overhead for an addition is about the same as for a square root extraction. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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OOP, Was: C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit
by rgfranks-cmaem7PIVQT44Nm34jS7GywD8/FfD2ys＠public.gmane.org 04 Dec '03

04 Dec '03

>>>>> "Marcus" == Marcus Brubaker <marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> writes: Marcus> To each their own opinion but if you want to do OOP then Marcus> there really isn't a better language out there than Java. You forgot Smalltalk. Everything is an object, even integers. Marcus> From my point of view Java is C++ done relatively right Marcus> from the language perspective. -- __@ Greg Franks <| _~@ __O _`\<,_ Ottawa, Ontario, Canada |O\ -^\<;^\<, (*)/ (*) (*)--(*)%---/(*) "Where do you want to go today?" Outside. -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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God help us all...
by rufmetal-MwcKTmeKVNQ＠public.gmane.org 04 Dec '03

04 Dec '03

On Mon, 1 Dec 2003 18:08:36 -0500 JoeHill <joehill-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org> wrote: > ...ya, until this part kicks in: > > "The software running their brakes will upgrade itself wirelessly." > > That ought to be a fun experience coming down the 427 and running into > a line of slow-moving transports...Windows Update patches your brake > software and you end up a red smear on some guy's "How's My Driving?" > bumper sticker. Pop-up window on the windshield HUD: Hi, it looks as if you're trying to pass someone. Do you want me to: + Increase speed + Honk the horn + Search the internet for tips about safe driving + See more about passing and right of way... Looks like you forgot to un-check the box which says "Show this window every time I accelerate" ~ C -- That's like banging rocks together and being proud that you've re-derived fire from first principles. ~ Jamie Zawinski -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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C considered harmful
by plp-ysDPMY98cNQDDBjDh4tngg＠public.gmane.org 04 Dec '03

04 Dec '03

On Thu, 4 Dec 2003, Anthony de Boer wrote: > Peter Hiscocks wrote: > > So, it is an interesting challenge to the language writers to create > > something that has the power of the C language and still does (say) > > automatic checking of array bounds. > > This idea may be fine within an application, but it breaks down at > security boundaries like the user/kernel interface, since the kernel had > better not trust the user program's claim of the size of an array (this And it does not. The kernel invariably verifies the access rights on the passed data field, whose size is explicitly passed to the kernel, before doing anything else. If it does not, then there is a bug in the kernel, not in C. Peter -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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Got a license for that Code?
by grant.cullen-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg＠public.gmane.org 04 Dec '03

04 Dec '03

This as absolute madness. While I don't earn my living specifically by writing code, I do write some for customers as needed. The thought of submitting an annual fee to some draconian organisation makes me sick. This must not happen. Grant Cullen JADALL Consulting Ltd. grant.cullen-rieW9WUcm8FFJ04o6PK0Fg at public.gmane.org 416-706-4447 -----Original Message----- From: owner-tlug-lxSQFCZeNF4 at public.gmane.org [mailto:owner-tlug at ss.org]On Behalf Of JoeHill Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 08:07 To: TLUG Subject: [TLUG]: Got a license for that Code? "It looks like the Microsoft front organizations are pushing licensing for software writers. Of course, the usual suspects, the BSA and ITAA are involved in writing the laws." Link: http://newsvac.newsforge.com/article.pl?sid=03/12/03/1640223 -- JoeHill ++ ICQ # 280779813 Registered Linux user #282046 Homepage: www.orderinchaos.org +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ "Behind every great fortune is a crime." -- Balzac -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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Debian attacker may have used new exploit
by adb-tlug-AbAJl/g/NLXk1uMJSBkQmQ＠public.gmane.org 04 Dec '03

04 Dec '03

Robert Brockway wrote: > Most exploits discovered these days are found by those who launch a > concerted effort to detect them. By sheer number and amount of effort > most of the people who discover exploits are in the security establishment > and are not Black Hats. > > I, along with most security professionals, maintain that the > vendors/developers are better off receiving some amount of warning before > the exploit goes public. ... I find it useful to consider three shades of hat; besides the black hat who will exploit a bug, and the white hat who honestly wants the bug fixed, there's the gray hat who discovers bugs for fame and fortune, and cares more for counting coup with his name in Bugtraq than for actually getting it fixed. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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C considered harmful
by adb-tlug-AbAJl/g/NLXk1uMJSBkQmQ＠public.gmane.org 04 Dec '03

04 Dec '03

Peter Hiscocks wrote: > So, it is an interesting challenge to the language writers to create > something that has the power of the C language and still does (say) > automatic checking of array bounds. This idea may be fine within an application, but it breaks down at security boundaries like the user/kernel interface, since the kernel had better not trust the user program's claim of the size of an array (this being an approximation of how Debian got burned), also since the kernel is dynamically carving out chunks of memory for things, and since "one man's program is another man's data" (the whole program may be one array of mere data to the kernel). There's a lot that can be fixed with opaque handles to structures (eg. Dan Bernstein's string library as opposed to the traditional C library's simple char * string implementation); C++ formalizes some such ideas, but a prudent C programmer can write better code without needing C++'s extra baggage. -- Anthony de Boer -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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C considered harmful: was Debian attacker may have used new exploit
by marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA＠public.gmane.org 04 Dec '03

04 Dec '03

On Thu, 2003-12-04 at 04:27, Tim Writer wrote: > Marcus Brubaker <marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> writes: > > > On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 23:30, Henry Spencer wrote: > > > On Wed, 3 Dec 2003, Peter Hiscocks wrote: > > Hell, even Prolog and the many species of LISP-type-languages are > > interesting in their own right (though not terribly useful in my mind). > > LISP not useful? Sacrilege! I'm responding to this with Gnus, still > arguably one of the best mail/news clients, running within Xemacs, still > arguably one of the best programmers' editors (vi/emacs flame wars > notwithstanding), written in a dialect of LISP. > Alright alright, I give, LISP is certainly more useful than a lot of languages and people have done some interesting things in them :) > > But if you fit well into a specific category of application development > > then there is a whole host of better choices for you. For instance, next > > major GUI application I write will probably be in Java [....] > > You might find this article, by one of the LISP community's greats, both > interesting and on topic: > > http://www.paulgraham.com/javacover.html To each their own opinion but if you want to do OOP then there really isn't a better language out there than Java. From my point of view Java is C++ done relatively right from the language perspective. Regards, -- Marcus Brubaker <marcus.brubaker-H217xnMUJC0sA/PxXw9srA at public.gmane.org> -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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video plugin for mozilla on linux
by Kpanchoo-bJEeYj9oJeDQT0dZR+AlfA＠public.gmane.org 04 Dec '03

04 Dec '03

for redhat 9 -- take a look at http://media4redhat.frontspace.org -- The Toronto Linux Users Group. Meetings: http://tlug.ss.org TLUG requests: Linux topics, No HTML, wrap text below 80 columns How to UNSUBSCRIBE: http://tlug.ss.org/subscribe.shtml

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