On Sun, 10 May 2020 12:06:20 +0200 ac via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
in my opinion, avoid any ongoing "free" services, more so if it is a huge multinational doing the offering as the huge companies all have some sort of "dominate the planet" and kill off all competition type long term goal...
ac, How legal do you think it is for a free online database to mine your data? I would regard this as a thread. -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca jhowardgibson@gmail.com http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
On 5/10/20 11:04 AM, Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
On Sun, 10 May 2020 12:06:20 +0200 ac via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
in my opinion, avoid any ongoing "free" services, more so if it is a huge multinational doing the offering as the huge companies all have some sort of "dominate the planet" and kill off all competition type long term goal... ac,
How legal do you think it is for a free online database to mine your data? I would regard this as a thread.
Rule 1: nothing is free. Rule 2: who ever holds your data owns your data. The legality of monetizing your data depends on the terms of service that you agreed to. But those are so general and only protect the service provider that its likely that your data is theirs to us as they see fit and if there is a problem because of their use of that data its your fault and the responsibility will be inherited by all your children into perpetuity. Think of it like the thief who tries to steal your old rear-projection television and gives himself a hernia. Then suing you for his medical expenses and loss of revenue. -- Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
On Sun, 10 May 2020 13:09:47 -0400 Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Think of it like the thief who tries to steal your old rear-projection television and gives himself a hernia. Then suing you for his medical expenses and loss of revenue.
roflmao, you are sooooo FUNNY!
On Sun, 10 May 2020 13:09:47 -0400 Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 5/10/20 11:04 AM, Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
On Sun, 10 May 2020 12:06:20 +0200 ac via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
in my opinion, avoid any ongoing "free" services, more so if it is a huge multinational doing the offering as the huge companies all have some sort of "dominate the planet" and kill off all competition type long term goal...
Alvin, I am fascinated by this incident... http://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/09/21/ncix_servers_sold/ -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca jhowardgibson@gmail.com http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
On 5/10/20 2:03 PM, Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
On Sun, 10 May 2020 13:09:47 -0400 Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 5/10/20 11:04 AM, Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
On Sun, 10 May 2020 12:06:20 +0200 ac via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
in my opinion, avoid any ongoing "free" services, more so if it is a huge multinational doing the offering as the huge companies all have some sort of "dominate the planet" and kill off all competition type long term goal... Alvin,
I am fascinated by this incident...
This is not a new story. A lot of years ago I worked for a company that wanted to develop a Unix workstation for CAD/CAM applications but they ran out of cash. Some Dentist bought the hardware at the fire sale and got a source copy of AT&T Unix. He then tried to extort cash out of AT&T with the threat of releasing the source code. Well needless to say it did not go well for him. Many years later I bought a tape backup system on Ebay. It came with about 10 tapes that had the complete MSSQL for an HMO in California. Including patient data and billing information. The NCIX one is not surprising because the bankruptcy lawyers have no idea of what they have and don't have any responsibility to guard public privacy. -- Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
On Sun, 10 May 2020 19:48:14 -0400 Alvin Starr <alvin@netvel.net> wrote:
Alvin,
I am fascinated by this incident...
This is not a new story.
A lot of years ago I worked for a company that wanted to develop a Unix workstation for CAD/CAM applications but they ran out of cash. Some Dentist bought the hardware at the fire sale and got a source copy of AT&T Unix. He then tried to extort cash out of AT&T with the threat of releasing the source code. Well needless to say it did not go well for him.
Many years later I bought a tape backup system on Ebay. It came with about 10 tapes that had the complete MSSQL for an HMO in California. Including patient data and billing information.
The NCIX one is not surprising because the bankruptcy lawyers have no idea of what they have and don't have any responsibility to guard public privacy.
Alvin, I recall hearing on the news about some guy who bought an old computer with the UNIX source code on it. That must have been the incident. I posted that story about NCIX on an engineering forum, and we discussed the ethics of it. To hell with lawyers. You are the landlord, and you have not been paid rent, and you have padlocked the place. Somebody offers you $10K for the servers. You are a low tech person. You have a mortgage. What do you do? Do you have any obligations to honour NDAs? Do you have any clue of how to search hard drives for sensitive information? Is it ethical for you to do so? -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca jhowardgibson@gmail.com http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
On 5/10/20 10:50 PM, Howard Gibson wrote:
[snip]
The NCIX one is not surprising because the bankruptcy lawyers have no idea of what they have and don't have any responsibility to guard public privacy. Alvin,
I recall hearing on the news about some guy who bought an old computer with the UNIX source code on it. That must have been the incident.
I posted that story about NCIX on an engineering forum, and we discussed the ethics of it. To hell with lawyers. You are the landlord, and you have not been paid rent, and you have padlocked the place. Somebody offers you $10K for the servers. You are a low tech person. You have a mortgage. What do you do? Do you have any obligations to honour NDAs? Do you have any clue of how to search hard drives for sensitive information? Is it ethical for you to do so?
Its not quite that simple. I understand the desire to want to do something to recoup your losses but selling the assets of someone else is not the answer. So you are the Landlord and you have not been paid and have the place padlocked and someone offers you $10K for the computers and equipment in that doctors office??? You may be a low tech person with a mortgage but you will likely know that that will end badly. Or its a garage rental. Do you sell the guys Ferrari for the back rent? Now that would be tempting but likely as not that would also end badly. I have been on the side of being the aggrieved person who is owed cash and I do know the feeling of anger and wanting to strike out but after hours on the phone with a lawyer friend I was told I needed to learn to live with it or find a new way to make a livelihood. -- Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
On 2020-05-11 08:11 AM, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
Its not quite that simple.
Yes it is, provided you get a judgment. I don't know all the details about landlord/tenant relations, but there comes a point where the landlord has a lien on the property, which can be enforced by the courts. Of course, there is a difference between residential and commercial properties.
On 5/11/20 8:40 AM, James Knott via talk wrote:
On 2020-05-11 08:11 AM, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
Its not quite that simple.
Yes it is, provided you get a judgment. I don't know all the details about landlord/tenant relations, but there comes a point where the landlord has a lien on the property, which can be enforced by the courts. Of course, there is a difference between residential and commercial properties.
The magical phrase is "provided you get a judgement" and having been through the process of getting a judgment I know that it is not simple. But simple may be in the eye of the beholder so let me say that getting a judgment was not simple for me. The original context was:
I posted that story about NCIX on an engineering forum, and we discussed the ethics of it. To hell with lawyers. You are the landlord, and you have not been paid rent, and you have padlocked the place. Somebody offers you $10K for the servers. You are a low tech person. You have a mortgage. What do you do? Do you have any obligations to honour NDAs? Do you have any clue of how to search hard drives for sensitive information? Is it ethical for you to do so?
It says nothing about prior judgments and within that there is the "To hell with lawyers" implying much less likelihood of having a judgment. Your right in that if you work within the system you have some choices for remedy. You will still not likely see all your money and now you have legal fees on top of your original losses. I was replying to the ethics of just selling the contents outside of any discussion about following legal procedures. -- Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 8:11 AM Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 5/10/20 10:50 PM, Howard Gibson wrote:
[snip]
The NCIX one is not surprising because the bankruptcy lawyers have no idea of what they have and don't have any responsibility to guard public privacy. Alvin,
I recall hearing on the news about some guy who bought an old computer with the UNIX source code on it. That must have been the incident.
I posted that story about NCIX on an engineering forum, and we discussed the ethics of it. To hell with lawyers. You are the landlord, and you have not been paid rent, and you have padlocked the place. Somebody offers you $10K for the servers. You are a low tech person. You have a mortgage. What do you do? Do you have any obligations to honour NDAs? Do you have any clue of how to search hard drives for sensitive information? Is it ethical for you to do so?
Its not quite that simple. I understand the desire to want to do something to recoup your losses but selling the assets of someone else is not the answer.
This is a pretty good read on that subject. https://www.mindengross.com/docs/articles/landlord-as-creditor---what-remedi...) I actually use to go to quite a lot of bankrupt liquidations. They were usually held on the leased premises because commercial leases aren't necessarily easy to break, or administer for that matter. Although sometimes short forms of leases are used, as in the case with property conveyancing in Ontario. Here's the part of the link dealing with chattels. Generally Speaking: (i) except for chattels on the premises which are subject to a true lease (a lease which is not in the nature of a financing arrangement), the race is to the swiftest; in other words, priority goes to the party who first seizes the chattels; however, it must be noted that the Ontario Court of Appeal has held that a landlord’s distress completed within three (3) months of a tenant’s bankruptcy, amounts to a “fraudulent preference”, and that the proceeds of the distress belong to the trustee in bankruptcy, leaving the landlord with merely a preferred claim under the Bankruptcy and Insolvency Act (Canada). This finding can potentially require a landlord that otherwise successfully completed a distress to repay the proceeds therefrom to the trustee of the bankrupt, which severely limits the efficacy of this remedy. If a tenant becomes bankrupt before the landlord completes its distraint or within three (3) months of the landlord’s completion of the distraint, the landlord’s claim for distress will be defeated in the chattels or proceeds from the sales of the chattels, which chattels vest in the trustee. This results in wasted time, effort and expense on the landlord’s part. (ii) with respect to chattels leased pursuant to a true lease, title to the chattels is in the lessor and the landlord cannot gain priority by seizing the chattels.
So you are the Landlord and you have not been paid and have the place padlocked and someone offers you $10K for the computers and equipment in that doctors office??? You may be a low tech person with a mortgage but you will likely know that that will end badly.
Or its a garage rental. Do you sell the guys Ferrari for the back rent? Now that would be tempting but likely as not that would also end badly.
I have been on the side of being the aggrieved person who is owed cash and I do know the feeling of anger and wanting to strike out but after hours on the phone with a lawyer friend I was told I needed to learn to live with it or find a new way to make a livelihood.
-- Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
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-- Russell
On Mon, May 11, 2020 at 7:11 AM Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 5/10/20 10:50 PM, Howard Gibson wrote:
[snip]
The NCIX one is not surprising because the bankruptcy lawyers have no idea of what they have and don't have any responsibility to guard public privacy. Alvin,
I recall hearing on the news about some guy who bought an old computer with the UNIX source code on it. That must have been the incident.
I posted that story about NCIX on an engineering forum, and we discussed the ethics of it. To hell with lawyers. You are the landlord, and you have not been paid rent, and you have padlocked the place. Somebody offers you $10K for the servers. You are a low tech person. You have a mortgage. What do you do? Do you have any obligations to honour NDAs? Do you have any clue of how to search hard drives for sensitive information? Is it ethical for you to do so?
Its not quite that simple. I understand the desire to want to do something to recoup your losses but selling the assets of someone else is not the answer.
So you are the Landlord and you have not been paid and have the place padlocked and someone offers you $10K for the computers and equipment in that doctors office??? You may be a low tech person with a mortgage but you will likely know that that will end badly.
Or its a garage rental. Do you sell the guys Ferrari for the back rent? Now that would be tempting but likely as not that would also end badly.
I have been on the side of being the aggrieved person who is owed cash and I do know the feeling of anger and wanting to strike out but after hours on the phone with a lawyer friend I was told I needed to learn to live with it or find a new way to make a livelihood.
Hmmmmmmm - - - - - even in 'law' there is a period of time where if an item has not been claimed nor space rent hasn't been paid the person owed the funds is 'allowed' to sell the items. Regards
participants (6)
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ac -
Alvin Starr -
Howard Gibson -
James Knott -
o1bigtenor -
Russell Reiter