Voyage to Omarcy: Lessons learned
Since at least a few people here indicated interest in my investigation into Hyprland and Omarchy, I've discovered quite a few new things about Linux, and even a few about myself. While my discoveries are far from over -- I have barely scratched the surface of what I've found, let alone make the best of it -- I offer a small reflection on having passed a milestone in having broadly determined what works for me and what doesn't. (Implied in this, of course, is that your use case will invariably differ from mine, but some of what I found may surely have interest broader than my own.) *1. Hyprland is nice, but not for me* Giles, of course, is absolutely right. There is nothing new about tiling window managers. The current spike of interest in Hyprland (and Sway, another newish tiling WM) appears to come from a new generation of coders and enthusiasts who like the extensibility and theming without a GUI, using new and powerful tools. In these travels I've learned that the use of "rice" as a verb has found its way from car enthusiasts into modern Linux lingo, in a way that makes me feel old. *2. Arch Linux is even less for me* Arch is clearly the distro-du-jour for coders in the way that CachyOS is for gamers. It has extensive documentation, but that's because even experienced users have to RTFM. If an update renders your system unusable (and even the biggest fans on YouTube admit that happens more often than I'd find comfortable), it's more than likely your own damned fault for having missed some small print in the release notes. Rolling releases means next to no testing on how package updates may affect other packages, so enter this world at your own risk. The AUR mega-repository is touted as this great feature, but I see nothing there that isn't in Ubuntu PPAs or Fedora COPR. *3. It's all so ... retro* Watching Arch install demos (and I watched many) takes me back to the days of Linux Installfests, when local enthusiasts were *necessary* to help people through the activity of getting Linux on their PC. There was this DIY attitude, that you couldn't understand Linux (and in the eyes of some you shouldn't be using it) without knowing how it worked under the hood. Arch is very much a throwback to those days, but in 2025 it comes across almost as a backlash against Linux For The Masses. Running Arch seems less a software installation and more a rite of passage, something you graduate to after Ubuntu or Mint to demonstrate your coder cred. The joy in finally making your audio work after weeks of frustration is something I am very happy to have left behind in Kubuntu and Fedora, yet remains very much a thing among Arch users. I've lived through that kind of time-suck too many times, I'm not going to volunteer for it again if I don't have to. I see Hyprland and the various app/config packages (of which Omarchy is the slickest and most popular) as just an extension of this retro vibe, right down to the psychedelic but very 8-bit Omarchy screensaver <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClZW_c_rLKQ>. *4. Wayland is a non-issue* Except for Discord, for some reason that's still a sore point. Everything else just works for me exactly as it did under X11, and that's not a Hyprland thing. Staying with my trusty Fedora KDE still keeps me on Weyland -- and Plasma made the transition very, very well. *5. There's still some great stuff to hang onto* Despite losing the faith in what I originally called a new holy trinity, I come away from this exploration with much new that I am installing and learning as I return to the desktop I started with. In their retro quest to do as much with the keyboard and as little with the mouse as possible, the new enthusiasts have identified to me tools that are going to make desktop life far more enjoyable and productive. Many are drop-in replacements for existing commands, much like the fish shell that Ron has demonstrated at a recent GTALUG meeting. Maybe you already know these, if not give them a look. I have installed or will be installing soon: - First and foremost, the *ghostty* terminal emulator. It's a remarkable improvement over the stock KDE or GNOME terminal app that many of us use. Also available for MacOS; - *yazi*, a text-based file manager that will display graphic thumbnails under ghostty and kitty; - *neovim*, a modern update of the traditional Unix text edito*r* - *fd* which does what find does but faster and easier; - *fastfetch* for a quick and useful system snapshot; - you'd never think that someone could improve on `cd` but *zoxide* is exactly that - and finally *fzf*, a "fuzzy" file finder Maybe none of these are new to folks here. But I'm just discovering them now, and encourage others to have a look. There may be other software yet to impress me, I'd love to know what others have discovered. *6. The politics I can do without.* Two of the first comments received about Omarchy were not about the quality of the software, but the character of the project founder. I find this quite disturbing and to the detriment of the open source movement. If I was going to shun every every software project led by an arrogant, self-righteous asshole with politics I found abhorrent I probably would never have started using Linux because I wouldn't be able to use gcc way back when. Richard Stallman has repeatedly repulsed me in-person, yet I can still admire him for the software he created and the community he built. Building inclusive communities does not just mean diversity of geographies, skin tones and various forms of self-identification; it also means including people with whose views outside the git repository you don't share. We need more connections, not fewer. The only thing that should matter among coders is the quality of the work and the ability to work with others civilly. So long as one doesn't actually force their politics within their peer group or on their users I see no reason to exclude them, let alone boycott their code. I get it. The FOSS community, from its inception, leans left, It practically has to; the core concept of "use what you need, contribute what you can" is straight out of Marx. But there needs to be slack cut; not forgiveness, but at least tolerance, especially if they keep their politics out of the developers peer group Plus, consider that projects such as Omarchy now have communities of contributors, in the dozens if not hundreds. Are they all to be tarred with the sins of the founder? Is heavy-handed guilt-by-association really a useful tactic? For heaven's sake; if recent events in the US have taught us anything it's that *the heat must come down*. Everywhere. Comments welcome. -- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56
Evan Leibovitch via Talk said on Sun, 28 Sep 2025 02:57:28 -0400
Since at least a few people here indicated interest in my investigation into Hyprland and Omarchy, I've discovered quite a few new things about Linux, and even a few about myself.
While my discoveries are far from over -- I have barely scratched the surface of what I've found, let alone make the best of it -- I offer a small reflection on having passed a milestone in having broadly determined what works for me and what doesn't. (Implied in this, of course, is that your use case will invariably differ from mine, but some of what I found may surely have interest broader than my own.)
*1. Hyprland is nice, but not for me*
Giles, of course, is absolutely right. There is nothing new about tiling window managers. The current spike of interest in Hyprland (and Sway, another newish tiling WM) appears to come from a new generation of coders and enthusiasts who like the extensibility and theming without a GUI, using new and powerful tools. In these travels I've learned that the use of "rice" as a verb has found its way from car enthusiasts into modern Linux lingo, in a way that makes me feel old.
*2. Arch Linux is even less for me*
Arch is clearly the distro-du-jour for coders in the way that CachyOS is for gamers. It has extensive documentation, but that's because even experienced users have to RTFM. If an update renders your system unusable (and even the biggest fans on YouTube admit that happens more often than I'd find comfortable), it's more than likely your own damned fault for having missed some small print in the release notes. Rolling releases means next to no testing on how package updates may affect other packages, so enter this world at your own risk.
You originally asked about Void Linux, as I remember. Void is a rolling release, but unlike Arch and Gentoo, it almost never leaves you borked. I've gotten in real trouble updating Arch and GEntoo. If you have upgrade trouble, the #voidlinux channel on LiberaChat quickly moves you past it. Void has both Wayland and KDE. I like Void Linux because it has few training wheels to get in your way. But of course the lack of training wheels *does* mean it's a little bit retro. Void packages a huge variety of software, although not as huge as Devuan/Debian/Ubuntu and their offspring. Those few things it doesn't package are what Qemu or Virtualbox are for. I've used Void Linux for 10 years and still love it. SteveT Steve Litt http://444domains.com
My reaction is, cool, the first baby steps back to the best window manager, that in Windows 3.1. Something that BOTH tiles (with edge drag to resize, and will REMEMBER without having to put in a text configuration file), and cascades (start something new, it plops down on top, maybe I only need it a moment, then I'll close it, or i'll reduce one of the tiled ones and move it to the freed up space. I asked about hybrid tiling and cascading, and AISearch gave me: Yes, several Linux tiling window managers allow manual configuration of tiles. Manual tiling window managers require the user to explicitly define where new windows are placed, often through keyboard shortcuts or commands, rather than relying on automatic layout algorithms. Examples include i3, which uses manual tiling and allows users to split windows similarly to tmux, and herbstluftwm, which operates by splitting frames into sub-frames that can be further divided and filled with windows. Another example is bspwm, which uses binary space partitioning and allows for manual control over window placement and layout. These managers provide precise control over window positioning and sizing, though they typically require users to configure their setup using text-based configuration files or scripts. and I haven't gone to the referenced names to look for details, but i am pretty sure none were mentioned in this thread. to the extent that they "reqire users to configure their setup using text based configuration files" sound much harder than what I remember from 3.1. just reviewed a youtube on bspwm, not promising, unless i need advanced bwspm and wasn't patient enough. Looking on youtube, It seems there are a bazillion window managers. Were any of you active in 3.1 days? Am I too old? My recollection in windows 3.1: when you open a new window, it cascades. But at any point, you can select "tile" with the choices of vertical, horizontal, or block (? not sure of name). All active windows would be tiled per the option. But you could drag the edges to change their sizes. For instance, block tile 4. OK. minimize the lower left, and drag the upper left to be full height. drag the lower right to only be half as wide. unminimize what had been in the lower left, it goes back to where it was, overlaying the bottom half of the now larger left pane, but then drag its edges to reduce it and share the lower right quadrant with what had been there before. 4 windows with areas 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 and 1/8. open a new program, it will cascade from the upper right covering parts of my tiles, but i can resize to the left half. now alt tab will go through all 5 windows, with the left half being which ever of the two there was last active. File manager was the same way. great for sorting files, 4 or 5 small tiles for targets, at least one larger one to brouse and drag them to the smaller tiles. icons along the bottom for minizied windows. if I mimimized a sub-window, it remembered where it was across reboots. if I closed it, it did not. program manager also. one area of my program manager window would contain a gardening related sub-window in the spring, christmas ones in the last quarter, and so on. Carey
CAREY SCHUG via Talk said on Sun, 28 Sep 2025 13:14:52 -0500 (CDT)
My reaction is, cool, the first baby steps back to the best window manager, that in Windows 3.1.
Oh lordy, Win3.1's User Interface (UI) was every bit as bad as Win11 or Unity. Win9x had an excellent UI, still alive thanks to KDE and IceWM. I was soooo happy when they ditched that mega-mousy 3.1 for the smooth Win95. Nowadays I use Openbox augmented with dmenu and UMENU2. SteveT Steve Litt http://444domains.com
is it possible to have an alternate desktop manager in windows 10 or 11? Are there any that have linux and windows versions and give an almost identical experience between them? That MIGHT be an incentive to make me at least try them, to not have to go back and forth. Just curious. I think I remember there was an alternative desktop manager for 3.1 and or NT that was similar to that in win 95. I don't like things that explode and block my screen when my mouse accidentally wanders a bit too far. Carey
On Sun, Sep 28, 2025 at 04:51:59PM -0500, CAREY SCHUG via Talk wrote:
is it possible to have an alternate desktop manager in windows 10 or 11? Are there any that have linux and windows versions and give an almost identical experience between them? That MIGHT be an incentive to make me at least try them, to not have to go back and forth. Just curious. I think I remember there was an alternative desktop manager for 3.1 and or NT that was similar to that in win 95. I don't like things that explode and block my screen when my mouse accidentally wanders a bit too far.
I remember using Norton Desktop on windows 3.1. I considered windows 3.1 unusable out of the box. Program manager was awful. Windows 95 was a huge improvement for sure. There are alternative window managers for Windows even now, including some weird tiling ones. -- Len Sorensen
From: Evan Leibovitch via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
(Thanks for this!)
- First and foremost, the *ghostty* terminal emulator. It's a remarkable improvement over the stock KDE or GNOME terminal app that many of us use. Also available for MacOS;
Evan: what did you find attractive? I'm just reading the readme.md from <https://github.com/ghostty-org/ghostty> I don't see anything that would make me change from the default on my desktop, Gnome Terminal. (I lean towards using defaults because of the "pick your fights" principle.) Ghostty is a terminal emulator that differentiates itself by being fast, feature-rich, and native. While there are many excellent terminal emulators available, they all force you to choose between speed, features, or native UIs. Ghostty provides all three. fast: for me, Gnome Terminal's performance hasn't felt like an issue. feature-rich: I don't see a feature highlighted that I need. Rendering GIFs is quite a feat but seems like a novelty act. Splitting screens I don't need because I've got windows. My text editor also splits its screen (sharing more context) native: so are most terminal emulators, including GNOME Terminal. cross-platform: I don't use other platforms much. Perhaps when they support Windows I might find it a step up from Windows Terminal, but only if the keystrokes and gestures mmach Linux ones. That would probably be a mistake: catering to me is less important than catering to Windows users. cross-platform libghostty for embeddable terminals. Sounds good but I don't write programs that need embeddable terminals. crash reports: Fedora's ABRT does this without adding code to the terminal emulator. How much code does this add the Ghostty and the project? How much of other project resources does this consume?
On Sun, Sep 28, 2025 at 9:38 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via Talk < talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
From: Evan Leibovitch via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
- First and foremost, the *ghostty* terminal emulator. It's a remarkable improvement over the stock KDE or GNOME terminal app that many of us use. Also available for MacOS;
Evan: what did you find attractive?
I'm just reading the readme.md from < https://github.com/ghostty-org/ghostty> I don't see anything that would make me change from the default on my desktop, Gnome Terminal. (I lean towards using defaults because of the "pick your fights" principle.)
Anytime a new replacement for something comes out, I appreciate and respect a response of "it does nothing new that I need". If it's not broke don't fix it. Everyone has their own evaluation of what constitutes a compelling reason to part with the familiar; that's practically the definition of YMMV. What's compelling to me is a novelty act to others, and that's fine. I would only add that these days there are many more sources of input for the evaluation than a project's README file. At very least I prefer third-party reviews that won't either understate or overstate the project's appeal. With so much sheer volume of content being written and video-recorded, it's not hard to find such reviews for new shiny toys like Ghostty. And given that Ghostty's reason for being is as a purely visual tool, it would make sense to at least watch it in action over someone else's shoulder. I watched a few of these before installing and am now playing with it myself. I consider it a significant upgrade, not all will agree. I find that many of the tiling benefits that made Hyprland appealing, IMO, can be sufficiently duplicated in Ghostty, such that I don't need to change my window manager. One might review such demos and still come to the conclusion that there's no compelling reason to veer from one's desktop defaults. It's one more thing to keep track of, and since ghostty is not yet in mainstream distribution repositories some effort must be expended to obtain it. Indeed, all of the software I mentioned (with the exception of fzf) are designed as drop-in replacements for existing tools, tools which have served users well for decades. All I suggest is that starting and ending at the project's README may not provide optimal premises upon which to base one's conclusions. - Evan
D. Hugh Redelmeier via Talk said on Sun, 28 Sep 2025 09:37:47 -0400 (EDT)
I don't see anything that would make me change from the default on my desktop, Gnome Terminal. (I lean towards using defaults because of the "pick your fights" principle.)
The "pick your fights" principle is *everything*. It's so important, and so rarely understood or employed. Congratulations on making us all conscious of this principle: The more you speak of this principle, the more good you're doing humanity. I'm not kidding; yes, it's *that* important, and not just in technology. I use a different word for it. I speak of "priorities" or "prioritization". Such a huge segment of humanity doesn't realize that if everything's important, nothing's important. We all have different priorities. In my opinion, it's vital for every human to know his or her priorities. How else can one make any intelligent choice? Thanks for bringing this up! SteveT Steve Litt http://444domains.com
From: Evan Leibovitch via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
Thanks again for this list. Here are my initial reactions. These are matters of taste and experience, so don't treat my opinions as correct for you.
- *yazi*, a text-based file manager that will display graphic thumbnails under ghostty and kitty;
I don't see why I need this. I use GNOME's "files" command and it is OK. If it were optimized to perform well over a slow connection, it might be useful, but this isn't mentioned.
- *neovim*, a modern update of the traditional Unix text edito*r*
I don't use or like vi so this doesn't matter to me. I seem to remember neovim was ahead of vim (that was the point) but I don't know about the current status.
- *fd* which does what find does but faster and easier;
I've leaned "find", painfully, a long time ago. A more humane interface is a Good Thing but it is too late for me. I don't like its helpful defaults. Others might. Performance? The single feature that might matter is multi-threading.
- *fastfetch* for a quick and useful system snapshot; "system snapshot" => "snapshot of information about your system" fastfetch replaces the no-longer maintained neofetch.
Some people have this automatically run when they log in through a console. I don't have a feeling for what fastfetch displays and what it doesn't. Most of the output looks like clutter to me but some might be useful to keep track of (eg. disk capacity utilization). For keeping track of hardware configurations, I tend to use lshw.
- you'd never think that someone could improve on `cd` but *zoxide* is exactly that
Seems scary. Might well be a time / keystroke saver. I haven't even adopted pushd and popd, which have been around for decades and might be useful. That shows how slow I am at adopting innovation.
- and finally *fzf*, a "fuzzy" file finder
Sounds useful.
Thanks for the write-up. It's much easier than going to https://github.com/agarrharr/awesome-cli-apps and looking at the commits every once in a while to look at the shiny new toys. On 2025-09-28 02:57, Evan Leibovitch via Talk wrote:
Since at least a few people here indicated interest in my investigation into Hyprland and Omarchy, I've discovered quite a few new things about Linux, and even a few about myself.
While my discoveries are far from over -- I have barely scratched the surface of what I've found, let alone make the best of it -- I offer a small reflection on having passed a milestone in having broadly determined what works for me and what doesn't. (Implied in this, of course, is that your use case will invariably differ from mine, but some of what I found may surely have interest broader than my own.)
1. Hyprland is nice, but not for me
Giles, of course, is absolutely right. There is nothing new about tiling window managers. The current spike of interest in Hyprland (and Sway, another newish tiling WM) appears to come from a new generation of coders and enthusiasts who like the extensibility and theming without a GUI, using new and powerful tools. In these travels I've learned that the use of "rice" as a verb has found its way from car enthusiasts into modern Linux lingo, in a way that makes me feel old.
2. Arch Linux is even less for me
Arch is clearly the distro-du-jour for coders in the way that CachyOS is for gamers. It has extensive documentation, but that's because even experienced users have to RTFM. If an update renders your system unusable (and even the biggest fans on YouTube admit that happens more often than I'd find comfortable), it's more than likely your own damned fault for having missed some small print in the release notes. Rolling releases means next to no testing on how package updates may affect other packages, so enter this world at your own risk. The AUR mega-repository is touted as this great feature, but I see nothing there that isn't in Ubuntu PPAs or Fedora COPR.
3. It's all so ... retro
Watching Arch install demos (and I watched many) takes me back to the days of Linux Installfests, when local enthusiasts were _necessary_ to help people through the activity of getting Linux on their PC. There was this DIY attitude, that you couldn't understand Linux (and in the eyes of some you shouldn't be using it) without knowing how it worked under the hood. Arch is very much a throwback to those days, but in 2025 it comes across almost as a backlash against Linux For The Masses. Running Arch seems less a software installation and more a rite of passage, something you graduate to after Ubuntu or Mint to demonstrate your coder cred. The joy in finally making your audio work after weeks of frustration is something I am very happy to have left behind in Kubuntu and Fedora, yet remains very much a thing among Arch users. I've lived through that kind of time-suck too many times, I'm not going to volunteer for it again if I don't have to. I see Hyprland and the various app/config packages (of which Omarchy is the slickest and most popular) as just an extension of this retro vibe, right down to the psychedelic but very 8-bit Omarchy screensaver [1].
4. Wayland is a non-issue
Except for Discord, for some reason that's still a sore point. Everything else just works for me exactly as it did under X11, and that's not a Hyprland thing. Staying with my trusty Fedora KDE still keeps me on Weyland -- and Plasma made the transition very, very well.
5. There's still some great stuff to hang onto
Despite losing the faith in what I originally called a new holy trinity, I come away from this exploration with much new that I am installing and learning as I return to the desktop I started with. In their retro quest to do as much with the keyboard and as little with the mouse as possible, the new enthusiasts have identified to me tools that are going to make desktop life far more enjoyable and productive. Many are drop-in replacements for existing commands, much like the fish shell that Ron has demonstrated at a recent GTALUG meeting. Maybe you already know these, if not give them a look. I have installed or will be installing soon:
* First and foremost, the ghostty terminal emulator. It's a remarkable improvement over the stock KDE or GNOME terminal app that many of us use. Also available for MacOS; * yazi, a text-based file manager that will display graphic thumbnails under ghostty and kitty; * neovim, a modern update of the traditional Unix text editor * fd which does what find does but faster and easier; * fastfetch for a quick and useful system snapshot; * you'd never think that someone could improve on `cd` but zoxide is exactly that * and finally fzf, a "fuzzy" file finder
Maybe none of these are new to folks here. But I'm just discovering them now, and encourage others to have a look. There may be other software yet to impress me, I'd love to know what others have discovered.
6. The politics I can do without.
Two of the first comments received about Omarchy were not about the quality of the software, but the character of the project founder. I find this quite disturbing and to the detriment of the open source movement.
If I was going to shun every every software project led by an arrogant, self-righteous asshole with politics I found abhorrent I probably would never have started using Linux because I wouldn't be able to use gcc way back when. Richard Stallman has repeatedly repulsed me in-person, yet I can still admire him for the software he created and the community he built. Building inclusive communities does not just mean diversity of geographies, skin tones and various forms of self-identification; it also means including people with whose views outside the git repository you don't share. We need more connections, not fewer. The only thing that should matter among coders is the quality of the work and the ability to work with others civilly. So long as one doesn't actually force their politics within their peer group or on their users I see no reason to exclude them, let alone boycott their code.
I get it. The FOSS community, from its inception, leans left, It practically has to; the core concept of "use what you need, contribute what you can" is straight out of Marx. But there needs to be slack cut; not forgiveness, but at least tolerance, especially if they keep their politics out of the developers peer group Plus, consider that projects such as Omarchy now have communities of contributors, in the dozens if not hundreds. Are they all to be tarred with the sins of the founder? Is heavy-handed guilt-by-association really a useful tactic? For heaven's sake; if recent events in the US have taught us anything it's that _the heat must come down_. Everywhere.
Comments welcome. --
Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56 ------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/YJFPS4U...
Links: ------ [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ClZW_c_rLKQ
On Sun, 28 Sept 2025 at 02:58, Evan Leibovitch via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
First and foremost, the ghostty terminal emulator. It's a remarkable improvement over the stock KDE or GNOME terminal app that many of us use. Also available for MacOS; yazi, a text-based file manager that will display graphic thumbnails under ghostty and kitty; neovim, a modern update of the traditional Unix text editor fd which does what find does but faster and easier; fastfetch for a quick and useful system snapshot; you'd never think that someone could improve on `cd` but zoxide is exactly that and finally fzf, a "fuzzy" file finder
Maybe none of these are new to folks here. But I'm just discovering them now, and encourage others to have a look. There may be other software yet to impress me, I'd love to know what others have discovered.
I _highly_ recommend people try out zoxide. It's a bit of a PITA to set up (well ... you have to go in and edit your shell start-up file), but for a heavy shell user it's a game-changing update to the `cd` utility. (I don't like the expression "game-changing" much - I don't use it lightly.) Unlike Hugh, the idea of image thumbnails in the terminal appeals to me. What I'm forced to conclude was that I "chose wrong" when I chose `alacritty` as my terminal several years ago. I mostly picked it because A) I don't like Gnome Terminal and B) it's a reasonable terminal that runs under both X and Wayland. But it doesn't support images. <sigh> Probably going to have to change terminals again. Vim won the `vi` clone wars, and pretty much ended them by 2015 (anyone else remember `vile` and `elvis`?). But Vim's code-base is (or at least was) crufty and had old, dead code. Bram Moolenaar (the primary Vim maintainer) was apparently also quite resistant to the addition of new features. This led to the NeoVim fork - the code base was cleaned up, and multiple new and useful features were used (without changing the basic expected behaviours). I switched years ago, and haven't looked back. I think it's been good for Vim too, as it forced Moolenaar to realize that he was losing users to this upstart project so he started moving forward more quickly. I think it's probably too little too late, but that fight isn't over yet. Bibliography: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vim_(text_editor) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vim_(text_editor)#Neovim -- Giles https://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com
From: Giles Orr via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
Vim won the `vi` clone wars, and pretty much ended them by 2015 (anyone else remember `vile` and `elvis`?). But Vim's code-base is (or at least was) crufty and had old, dead code. Bram Moolenaar (the primary Vim maintainer) was apparently also quite resistant to the addition of new features. This led to the NeoVim fork - the code base was cleaned up, and multiple new and useful features were used (without changing the basic expected behaviours). I switched years ago, and haven't looked back. I think it's been good for Vim too, as it forced Moolenaar to realize that he was losing users to this upstart project so he started moving forward more quickly. I think it's probably too little too late, but that fight isn't over yet.
Isn't it too late given that Moolenaar died in 2023?
Oh, I didn't know he died. Vim does bother me a bit, mostly its unreadable configuration and scripts. But, I don't touch those, except for setting parameter 'yes' or 'no'. So, no urge to use something else. On 2025-09-29 11:02, D. Hugh Redelmeier via Talk wrote:
From: Giles Orr via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> Vim won the `vi` clone wars, and pretty much ended them by 2015 (anyone else remember `vile` and `elvis`?). But Vim's code-base is (or at least was) crufty and had old, dead code. Bram Moolenaar (the primary Vim maintainer) was apparently also quite resistant to the addition of new features. This led to the NeoVim fork - the code base was cleaned up, and multiple new and useful features were used (without changing the basic expected behaviours). I switched years ago, and haven't looked back. I think it's been good for Vim too, as it forced Moolenaar to realize that he was losing users to this upstart project so he started moving forward more quickly. I think it's probably too little too late, but that fight isn't over yet. Isn't it too late given that Moolenaar died in 2023?
Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/I5T5TSR...
Evan Leibovitch via Talk wrote on 2025-09-27 23:57:
*2. Arch Linux is even less for me*
...
Watching Arch install demos (and I watched many) takes me back to the days of Linux Installfests, when local enthusiasts were /necessary/ to help people through the activity of getting Linux on their PC.
Suspicion confirmed - the installation is a big hurdle.
There was this DIY attitude, that you couldn't understand Linux (and in the eyes of some you shouldn't be using it) without knowing how it worked under the hood. Arch is very much a throwback to those days, but in 2025 it comes across almost as a backlash against Linux For The Masses.
It's probably worth it to me installing Arch on a spare computer, just for the learning experience.
*4. Wayland is a non-issue*
Except for Discord, for some reason that's still a sore point. Everything else just works for me exactly as it did under X11, and that's not a Hyprland thing. Staying with my trusty Fedora KDE still keeps me on Weyland -- and Plasma made the transition very, very well.
Good to hear, I have hopes for Wayland.
* First and foremost, the *ghostty* terminal emulator. It's a remarkable improvement over the stock KDE or GNOME terminal app that many of us use. Also available for MacOS; * *yazi*, a text-based file manager that will display graphic thumbnails under ghostty and kitty; * *neovim*, a modern update of the traditional Unix text edito*r* * *fd* which does what find does but faster and easier; * *fastfetch* for a quick and useful system snapshot; * you'd never think that someone could improve on `cd` but *zoxide* is exactly that * and finally *fzf*, a "fuzzy" file finder
I'm always happy to hear people looking at new ways to do current (or new) things. I may check out ghostty - these new GPU-accelerated terminals are interesting (and, pretty). Thanks for the extensive report on how it went.
Evan Leibovitch via Talk wrote on 2025-09-27 23:57:
*6. The politics I can do without.*
Two of the first comments received about Omarchy were not about the quality of the software, but the character of the project founder.
I guess that's me. My comments touched on both. Without experience with Omarchy, there wasn't much I could add on that front. As for DHH, people should have such information on the founder when making decisions - what they do with it is their choice.
If I was going to shun every every software project led by an arrogant, self-righteous asshole with politics I found abhorrent I probably would never have started using Linux because I wouldn't be able to use gcc way back when. Richard Stallman has repeatedly repulsed me in-person
Picks his toes / nose and eats it is in a whole different class than White Replacement Theory in 2025. I'm unfamiliar with Stallman's politics other than "free as in speech" software. Who is he targeting based on ethnicity?
I find this quite disturbing and to the detriment of the open source movement.
What I find disturbing is that merely pointing out someone holding such opinions, in 2025, would be "disturbing" to anyone. Not caring about his White Replacement politics doesn't mean those political opinions won't care about us.
Building inclusive communities does not just mean diversity of geographies, skin tones and various forms of self-identification; it also means including people with whose views outside the git repository you don't share.
The "Paradox of tolerance" is extending tolerance to those who are themselves intolerant; it's a one-way courtesy. In such cases, it is not obligatory and has led to a dangerous rightward ratcheting of policy. No one said Omarchy should be shunned based on DHH's views. But many may find it relevant information to feed into the calculations on whether a given non-essential software is worth pursuing.
The only thing that should matter among coders is the quality of the work
I wonder if a non-white, London-based coder who writes high quality code, are they still seen as a blight on London by the likes of DHH? He made no distinction about "quality of $x" in his blog post. To him, it seems, what matters is about skin colour / ethnicity.
and the ability to work with others civilly.
Is being a civil racist okay?
So long as one doesn't actually force their politics within their peer group or on their users I see no reason to exclude them, let alone boycott their code.
If they force (or advocate) their odious politics outside the project, is one not allowed to boycott them on principle?
I get it. The FOSS community, from its inception, leans left
I maintain that being in opposition to the creeping fascism in the West is not "leaning left". I reject repositioning the Overton Window like that.
consider that projects such as Omarchy now have communities of contributors, in the dozens if not hundreds. Are they all to be tarred with the sins of the founder? Is heavy-handed guilt-by- association really a useful tactic?
That feels a bit hyperbolic - if one chooses to not use a piece of software due to the views of the founder, that's their right and what is up with low-grade shaming them for it? There's no "tarring" nor "guilt-by-association" happening.
For heaven's sake; if recent events in the US have taught us anything it's that /the heat must come down/. Everywhere.
This "Both-Sides" BS pandering is one of the reasons we're in this mess. Today's example:
Arizona *lawmaker* calls for WA congresswoman to be executed for urging Trump protests
https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/arizona-lawmaker-calls-wa- congresswoman-003640893.html etc ad nauseam
Comments welcome.
I meant to focus on the utilities like ghostty but turns out, more had to be said on off-topic stuff, so I said it. No intention to derail the technical merits of Omarchy.
Ron via Talk said on Mon, 29 Sep 2025 16:21:03 -0700
Not caring about his White Replacement politics doesn't mean those political opinions won't care about us.
Wait a minute. Did I miss the headline saying that RMS is spouting White Replacement rhetoric? I googled "richard stallman" and "white replacement", and Google's AI said Richard Stallman has never spoken White Replacement rhetoric. What he *did* say in 2023 is that if you're going to capitalize "Black" then you should capitalize "White" also, and doing otherwise is a symbolic endorsement of bigotry. SteveT Steve Litt http://444domains.com
Steve Litt via Talk wrote on 2025-09-29 18:31:
Wait a minute. Did I miss the headline saying that RMS is spouting White Replacement rhetoric?
No, it was "DHH", the guy behind Ruby on Rails and Omarchy that recently wrote a blog post bemoaning the lack of "ethnic Brits" in London causing him to end his life-long love of the city. He also shouted out Tommy Robinson, the UK's version of Nick Fuentes (maybe?). Link is in a previous thread - see the "Archived at" link in message footer. RMS is infamously odious in his own way. Evan was apparently repulsed when meeting him in person, and if you're not aware, search his name, click on video results, and consider if you want to revisit your latest meal before clicking anything.
Ron via Talk said on Mon, 29 Sep 2025 22:59:14 -0700
Steve Litt via Talk wrote on 2025-09-29 18:31:
Wait a minute. Did I miss the headline saying that RMS is spouting White Replacement rhetoric?
No, it was "DHH", the guy behind Ruby on Rails and Omarchy that recently wrote a blog post bemoaning the lack of "ethnic Brits" in London causing him to end his life-long love of the city.
Thanks Ron, I finally figured that out 10 minutes ago, including the Tommy Robinson thing. [snip remainder of information] I wrote a post on this topic 5 minutes ago. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt http://444domains.com
Hi to you both, Not placing this in context..I do not want to break up the flow of your points here. Still, I do have a question or two. Evan, if dhh did not want to sway others to his thinking, why do you feel he placed a blog, that folks were going to find, as they seek information about Omarcy? These days, one has to be very careful, use certain words if you are sharing an opinion you hope is considered a part from your projects. To be sure, true inclusion is allowing the presence of those whose view of the world does not resonate with your own..so long as they offer the same courtesy. so long as everyone treats it a bit like the United Nations, everyone has the right to leave the room if something is being said they do not like. What concerns me here though is this. As his community of contributors goes, is he going to honor his personal definition of the world, and exclude community members who do not look like him? Let's say you have built a business using this open source software. While I understand your stance that the product should not be limited by the Creator, what would you say to clients or customers this person wants to vote out of the human family? Ron's point that individuals should make an informed decision, speaking personally, plays to the marketplace of ideas. YOu need those stances known so that you as an individual can choose if, with a clear conscience, you can stand by the product. How would you defend your choice to ignore his views on people, if some of those people who are customers discover his beliefs. Speaking personally, it is not about community members being painted with the same brush. These days of social media will make that almost a certainty, unless this person makes a clear distinction between how he views humanity, and how he will welcome community members and contributors who do not share his perspective. Is he doing this here? Does a clear line exist between the blog he posted, and his approach to open source community building? Does he, in this blog make it clear he does not hope others will come to share his views. As you say, not forcing his perspective on to people. Speaking personally, his posting the blog..at all, makes that a touch hard to believe...after all, when he is interviewed, he will be asked about that blog. he wanted the world to know where he stands..or he would not have used this blog to introduce himself to the world. Yes, it is absolutely possible to separate art from artist. I sometimes use the Charles dickens example. Does knowing that Charles dickens in an effort to free himself so he could chase an 18 year old girl, tried to have his wife and the mother of all his children committed to an insane asylum..mean I cannot enjoy A tale of two cities? Just my thoughts, Kare On Mon, 29 Sep 2025, Ron via Talk wrote:
Evan Leibovitch via Talk wrote on 2025-09-27 23:57:
*6. The politics I can do without.*
Two of the first comments received about Omarchy were not about the quality of the software, but the character of the project founder.
I guess that's me. My comments touched on both. Without experience with Omarchy, there wasn't much I could add on that front.
As for DHH, people should have such information on the founder when making decisions - what they do with it is their choice.
If I was going to shun every every software project led by an arrogant, self-righteous asshole with politics I found abhorrent I probably would never have started using Linux because I wouldn't be able to use gcc way back when. Richard Stallman has repeatedly repulsed me in-person
Picks his toes / nose and eats it is in a whole different class than White Replacement Theory in 2025.
I'm unfamiliar with Stallman's politics other than "free as in speech" software. Who is he targeting based on ethnicity?
I find this quite disturbing and to the detriment of the open source movement.
What I find disturbing is that merely pointing out someone holding such opinions, in 2025, would be "disturbing" to anyone.
Not caring about his White Replacement politics doesn't mean those political opinions won't care about us.
Building inclusive communities does not just mean diversity of geographies, skin tones and various forms of self-identification; it also means including people with whose views outside the git repository you don't share.
The "Paradox of tolerance" is extending tolerance to those who are themselves intolerant; it's a one-way courtesy. In such cases, it is not obligatory and has led to a dangerous rightward ratcheting of policy.
No one said Omarchy should be shunned based on DHH's views. But many may find it relevant information to feed into the calculations on whether a given non-essential software is worth pursuing.
The only thing that should matter among coders is the quality of the work
I wonder if a non-white, London-based coder who writes high quality code, are they still seen as a blight on London by the likes of DHH? He made no distinction about "quality of $x" in his blog post. To him, it seems, what matters is about skin colour / ethnicity.
and the ability to work with others civilly.
Is being a civil racist okay?
So long as one doesn't actually force their politics within their peer group or on their users I see no reason to exclude them, let alone boycott their code.
If they force (or advocate) their odious politics outside the project, is one not allowed to boycott them on principle?
I get it. The FOSS community, from its inception, leans left
I maintain that being in opposition to the creeping fascism in the West is not "leaning left". I reject repositioning the Overton Window like that.
consider that projects such as Omarchy now have communities of contributors, in the dozens if not hundreds. Are they all to be tarred with the sins of the founder? Is heavy-handed guilt-by- association really a useful tactic?
That feels a bit hyperbolic - if one chooses to not use a piece of software due to the views of the founder, that's their right and what is up with low-grade shaming them for it?
There's no "tarring" nor "guilt-by-association" happening.
For heaven's sake; if recent events in the US have taught us anything it's that /the heat must come down/. Everywhere.
This "Both-Sides" BS pandering is one of the reasons we're in this mess.
Today's example:
Arizona *lawmaker* calls for WA congresswoman to be executed for urging Trump protests
https://www.yahoo.com/news/articles/arizona-lawmaker-calls-wa- congresswoman-003640893.html
etc ad nauseam
Comments welcome.
I meant to focus on the utilities like ghostty but turns out, more had to be said on off-topic stuff, so I said it.
No intention to derail the technical merits of Omarchy.
------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/IQSC7LP...
On Mon, Sep 29, 2025 at 9:48 PM Karen Lewellen via Talk < talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
Hi to you both, Not placing this in context..I do not want to break up the flow of your points here.
I'm not sure there's much "flow" going on. I said my piece. I'm not going to pollute this list with my own politics and a thread undeserving of a technical group. Happy to take things offline but I will not be the source of an extended debate here on the larger issues. Being Jewish in Toronto I do not feel AT ALL safe based on real experience -- for numerous reasons I won't detail here -- I have a personal stake in the politics writ-large because they show up at my doorstep. As someone who had friends and relatives with numbers tattooed on their inner arm and been to KZ-Dachau, I recoil at the casual use of the terms Nazi or genocide by people witout any effing clue of what they're talking about. At very least, anyone who uses these terms in modern contexts deserves an instant credibility downgrade. Yet I will still engage, just not here.
Evan, if dhh did not want to sway others to his thinking, why do you feel he placed a blog, that folks were going to find, as they seek information about Omarcy?
I'm not sure I understand the question, since there is nothing I can find at omarchy.org about politics. Nothing. All of the interviews I've seen of dhh talking about Omarchy have never ventured into anything beyond the software itself. Indeed, if there is any politics found on the omarchy.org website I would genuinely like to know, because I can't find any. The blogs being discussed are on the website hey.com, far from Omarcy. Indeed, even if you want to look at the HEY software itself, you can't find a link to the blog from the software site. The blog subsite https://world.hey.com/dhh/ looks more like a Substack feed than anything else, sharing nothing with the software websites except a domain name. To get to the blog in question one has to actively seek it out through links from social media. So please rephrase your question, indicating how the blog is placed such that it asserts politics on people simply looking at Omarchy.
As his community of contributors goes, is he going to honor his personal definition of the world, and exclude community members who do not look like him?
That isn't a hypothetical question, it's one that can be legitimately asked and researched. The Github entry for Omarchy <https://github.com/basecamp/omarchy> lists 172 contributors as of right now. The photos of many of them look nothing like him. I would imagine that if anyone had attempted to contribute code but was rejected for any reason except the code we'd know about it. Loudly. As for the non-coder user community, he has less control over that. Yet the Omarchy Discord server <https://discord.gg/rnxCFxEx> has 1,665 participants and zero political talk. The off-topic channel is all tech stuff. Let's say you have built a business using this open source software.
Actually I have built three. All still going. One of them is an international organization that I travelled the world to help grow. My personal politics -- in some cases massively opposed to those of the countries I visited -- did not impede my work and my ability to build relationships. YOu need those stances known so that you as an individual can choose if, with
a clear conscience, you can stand by the product.
I am truly puzzled by the link implied between one's politics and the ability to "stand by" their product. Since I *have* built businesses based on FOSS, when I think of "stand by" in this context I think of organizational stability, technical support, bug fixes and updates based on user feedback. Exactly how does any of that correlate to political views? I don't expect end-users to "stand by" products. We want happy users, who we have helped in some way to make their life better. Enthusiasm is nice but doesn't require emotional attachment. How would you defend your choice to ignore his views on people, if some of those
people who are customers discover his beliefs.
Because software doesn't have beliefs. It makes your life better or it doesn't. Clause 6 of the Open Source Definition <https://opensource.org/osd> and Freedom Zero of the FSF four freedoms <https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.en.html#four-freedoms> preclude any limits on who can use the software or how they use it. As I said in my piece I am staying away from Omarchy, but for reasons that have nothing to do with politics. It's just not for me. Speaking personally, it is not about community members being painted with the
same brush.
It sure is. When you boycott the project you boycott the work of everyone who contributes to it.
Is he doing this here? Does a clear line exist between the blog he posted, and his approach to open source community building?
I think I've offered some evidence of the separation. Draw your own conclusions if you consider it sufficient. From what I can see, one has to make a deliberate effort to find his political views, they aren't attached to the software projects and certainly are not inflicted on the curious. I would even challenge people to find mention of dhh's politics on his WIkipedia page <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Heinemeier_Hansson>. He's broadly known for his software development and car racing, not his politics. he wanted the world to know where he stands..or he would not have used this
blog to introduce himself to the world.
In 2005 Google awarded him "Hacker of the Year" <https://developers.google.com/open-source/osa/?csw=1> for Ruby on Rails. In 2012 he started professional car racing. His first blog post came in 2021. Suggesting that the blog is what introduced him to the world is a bit of a stretch, no? Cheers, Evan
From: Evan Leibovitch via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
... I recoil at the casual use of the terms Nazi or genocide by people witout any effing clue of what they're talking about. At very least, anyone who uses these terms in modern contexts deserves an instant credibility downgrade. Yet I will still engage, just not here.
1. Genocide: the only previous mention of genocide was as a hypothetical advocacy of it. Not a real misuse. 2. Nazi: you are quite right. Many of the people who are using the word "Nazi" these days are describing themselves as Nazis. Inaccurately or aspirationally. Some are accusing others of being Nazis when they mean "faschist". On the other hand, there is a process of misusing "Nazi" that is diluting the term.
On Tue, Sep 30, 2025 at 12:44 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via Talk < talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote: Some are accusing others of being Nazis when they mean "faschist". Actually, most don't know what fascist really means either. - Evan
Ron via Talk said on Mon, 29 Sep 2025 16:21:03 -0700
Evan Leibovitch via Talk wrote on 2025-09-27 23:57:
*6. The politics I can do without.*
Two of the first comments received about Omarchy were not about the quality of the software, but the character of the project founder.
I guess that's me. My comments touched on both. Without experience with Omarchy, there wasn't much I could add on that front.
As for DHH, people should have such information on the founder when making decisions - what they do with it is their choice.
I thought all this was about Stallman, not David Heinemeier Hansson. I don't know how Stallman came into the picture. Just so we're all on the same page, the following is a link to the hey.com blog entry that's being discussed here: https://world.hey.com/dhh/as-i-remember-london-e7d38e64 As writings go, the preceding is nowhere near the worst I've seen. He didn't call for anybody's death. He didn't call for race war or genocide. He didn't even write in favor of taking away health coverage from 15 million people by 2034. If this had been on his own, personal blog, I wouldn't have thought too much about it. But it's on the blog of his Hey software, and when that stuff starts happening, to me it starts looking less and less like free software. To me, the situation isn't strong enough for any kind of absolutes, but it's certainly a factor. I've read about Omarchy and for me, it contains nothing so good as to undo the uneasy feeling I get reading the blog entry. Matter of fact, Omarchy gives me nothing I can't have with my specialized setup of Void Linux. Except systemd, LOL. Whomever brought Stallman into the discussion, please stop. Stallman has nothing to do with DHH or Omarchy, and I really don't care about his personal hygiene. SteveT Steve Litt http://444domains.com
On Tue, Sep 30, 2025 at 2:14 AM Steve Litt via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
Ron via Talk said on Mon, 29 Sep 2025 16:21:03 -0700
Whomever brought Stallman into the discussion, please stop. Stallman has nothing to do with DHH or Omarchy, and I really don't care about his personal hygiene.
That would be me and I'm not talking about hygiene. It's a valid point that the open source world has more than its share of people considered awful to some, almost as long as the movement has existed; had we considered the politics, tactics and behaviors of some of these project leaders before using their code there might not be any open source movement today. I offer but one example. I won't belabor the point, a chunk of which is personal -- ie. my comments are based on in-person encounters, not just spew I read on the Internet. And frankly I'm slightly amused at the speed at which Stallman's defence appeared. -- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56
participants (10)
-
CAREY SCHUG -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Evan Leibovitch -
ganesh＠rethinkmail.com -
Giles Orr -
Karen Lewellen -
Lennart Sorensen -
Ron -
Steve Litt -
William Park