Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
Greetings To GTALUG Members, A setback has occurred in my project to acquire a new Linux PC. On the Windows XP PC that is going to be replaced by the new Linux PC, the DDS-3 DAT SCSI tape drive has died, that does backup duty for the HDD. Died too soon by only a couple of months -- !@#$%^&*(!! Since it could still take a few months for me to complete the acquisition of and conversion to the new Linux PC, I am not going to risk operating the Windows XP PC without regular HDD backup for so long. So, I need to source a replacement tape drive for the Windows XP PC, before I can continue with acquisition of the new Linux PC. A soon as I have a replacement tape drive operating on the Windows XP PC, I will resume the Linux PC acquisition project, and complete the revisions to the specification of components, per advice from GTALUG members. Regards, Steve * * * Steve Petrie, P.Eng. ITS-ETO Consortium Oakville, Ontario, Canada (905) 847-3253 apetrie@aspetrie.net
Tape drives are hard to come by these days. Have you thought about a USB drive for backup? Or a NAS box. There are several inexpensive 1 and 2 drive NAS enclosures that you can get to put on your local network. Having network storage is always handy for things like running as a media server. It may be worth looking into getting the drive fixed. I believe that Memofix(http://www.memofix.com/) will repair tape drives. On 08/09/2016 09:35 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
Greetings To GTALUG Members,
A setback has occurred in my project to acquire a new Linux PC.
On the Windows XP PC that is going to be replaced by the new Linux PC, the DDS-3 DAT SCSI tape drive has died, that does backup duty for the HDD. Died too soon by only a couple of months -- !@#$%^&*(!!
Since it could still take a few months for me to complete the acquisition of and conversion to the new Linux PC, I am not going to risk operating the Windows XP PC without regular HDD backup for so long.
So, I need to source a replacement tape drive for the Windows XP PC, before I can continue with acquisition of the new Linux PC.
A soon as I have a replacement tape drive operating on the Windows XP PC, I will resume the Linux PC acquisition project, and complete the revisions to the specification of components, per advice from GTALUG members.
Regards,
Steve
* * *
Steve Petrie, P.Eng.
ITS-ETO Consortium Oakville, Ontario, Canada (905) 847-3253 apetrie@aspetrie.net
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-- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
Hello Alvin, Thanks for your response. Please see my comments inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alvin Starr" <alvin@netvel.net> To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2016 9:46 AM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
Tape drives are hard to come by these days. Have you thought about a USB drive for backup?
I do plan to use portable USB drives for backup on the new Linux PC. I did consider getting the portable USB drives now, and using them for backup on the existing Windows XP PC. However, I prefer not to mess around with changing the backup method on the Windows XP PC, since I plan to stop using it as soon as the new Linux PC is operational. There are plenty of inexpensive used DDS-3 tape drives available e.g. on eBay, and from other sources.
Or a NAS box. There are several inexpensive 1 and 2 drive NAS enclosures that you can get to put on your local network.
As with the portable USB drive idea, I prefer not to complicate the Windows XP setup, by attaching new devices. <snip>
It may be worth looking into getting the drive fixed. I believe that Memofix(http://www.memofix.com/) will repair tape drives.
Thanks for the tip !! I see they are a Canadian firm, so no border-crossing complications. I will investigate further.
On 08/09/2016 09:35 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
Greetings To GTALUG Members,
A setback has occurred in my project to acquire a new Linux PC.
On the Windows XP PC that is going to be replaced by the new Linux PC, the DDS-3 DAT SCSI tape drive has died, that does backup duty for the HDD. Died too soon by only a couple of months -- !@#$%^&*(!!
Since it could still take a few months for me to complete the acquisition of and conversion to the new Linux PC, I am not going to risk operating the Windows XP PC without regular HDD backup for so long.
So, I need to source a replacement tape drive for the Windows XP PC, before I can continue with acquisition of the new Linux PC.
A soon as I have a replacement tape drive operating on the Windows XP PC, I will resume the Linux PC acquisition project, and complete the revisions to the specification of components, per advice from GTALUG members.
Regards,
Steve
* * *
Steve Petrie, P.Eng.
ITS-ETO Consortium Oakville, Ontario, Canada (905) 847-3253 apetrie@aspetrie.net
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-- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
On 2016-08-09 09:35 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
On the Windows XP PC that is going to be replaced by the new Linux PC, the DDS-3 DAT SCSI tape drive has died, that does backup duty for the HDD. Died too soon by only a couple of months -- !@#$%^&*(!!
Better to spend $90 on something like a WD 1TB My Passport Portable External Hard Drive <http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=15_213_602&item_id=089777> than faff with tape. DAT-style drives and media just seem to self-destruct after a while. So many of my friends in the music industry have found that their cherished "DAT masters" are unreadable. cheers, Stewart
On 16-08-09 03:54 PM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
On 2016-08-09 09:35 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
On the Windows XP PC that is going to be replaced by the new Linux PC, the DDS-3 DAT SCSI tape drive has died, that does backup duty for the HDD. Died too soon by only a couple of months -- !@#$%^&*(!!
I used to use 4mm DAT tapes to backup my machine some years ago. It seemed like a good idea at the time. I don't know if any of my tapes ever went bad but the drives certainly did. I had 3 drives die on me in different ways (4 if you count the fact I was able to take parts from two that died in different ways to get a working drive). I've given up on the use of tape. I use external hard drives for backup. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
On 08/09/2016 04:12 PM, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:
I've given up on the use of tape. I use external hard drives for backup.
You should always back up with tar to 9 track tape stands, the way the computer gods intended. ;-)
On 08/09/2016 04:15 PM, James Knott via talk wrote:
On 08/09/2016 04:12 PM, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:
I've given up on the use of tape. I use external hard drives for backup. You should always back up with tar to 9 track tape stands, the way the computer gods intended. ;-)
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And keep your audio recordings on 1" reel to reel instrumentation recorders like we did at Digital Recording. On 4mm backups. There was a customer who used a 4mm backup and backed up every night. The one thing someone forgot to tell them was to replace the tapes. After about 4 years the disk failed. The tapes were transparent. Guess how this story ended? -- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
Hello Alvin, Please see my comments inline below. Steve apetrie@aspetrie.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alvin Starr via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> To: "James Knott" <james.knott@rogers.com>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2016 4:28 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On 08/09/2016 04:15 PM, James Knott via talk wrote:
I've given up on the use of tape. I use external hard drives for backup. You should always back up with tar to 9 track tape stands, the way
On 08/09/2016 04:12 PM, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote: the computer gods intended. ;-) --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
And keep your audio recordings on 1" reel to reel instrumentation recorders like we did at Digital Recording.
On 4mm backups. There was a customer who used a 4mm backup and backed up every night.
The one thing someone forgot to tell them was to replace the tapes.
After about 4 years the disk failed.
The tapes were transparent.
After the customer's nightly backup process wrote to the tape, was there also a separate verify phase, that rewound and read through the entire tape, and compared its contents with the HDD data? Surely a verify phase would have failed with unreadable (transparent) tapes. And failure of the verify phase, would have alerted the customer to the unreadability problem with the tapes.
Guess how this story ended?
The story ended very badly, no doubt. The cruel "nasty surprise" downside, of our beautiful profession ...
-- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
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more comments in line. On 08/10/2016 03:31 PM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
Hello Alvin,
Please see my comments inline below.
[snip]
On 4mm backups. There was a customer who used a 4mm backup and backed up every night.
The one thing someone forgot to tell them was to replace the tapes.
After about 4 years the disk failed.
The tapes were transparent.
After the customer's nightly backup process wrote to the tape, was there also a separate verify phase, that rewound and read through the entire tape, and compared its contents with the HDD data?
Surely a verify phase would have failed with unreadable (transparent) tapes. And failure of the verify phase, would have alerted the customer to the unreadability problem with the tapes.
Verify phase. You make me laugh. HAHAHA. I did not write the code if I did then there would likely have been a verify phase. Some people kind of expect when you tell the drive to write the data its just written and if it were not there would be an error. Kind of like disk drives most times. Anyway. When you do the verify you need to actually verify the data and not just the block checksums. Once upon a time a company I worked for had a bug that would write blank tapes. More correctly tapes full of zero filled blocks. They checksumed correctly so the quick check would succeed but not restore.
Guess how this story ended?
The story ended very badly, no doubt. The cruel "nasty surprise" downside, of our beautiful profession ...
They got back up and running and from that point forward the backups were done properly. Nothing like getting burned to teach you.
-- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
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-- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
On 08/10/2016 04:11 PM, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
I did not write the code if I did then there would likely have been a verify phase. Some people kind of expect when you tell the drive to write the data its just written and if it were not there would be an error. Kind of like disk drives most times.
The 9 track tape drives I used to work on had a read after write head, so errors could be detected during write.
On 08/10/2016 04:23 PM, James Knott wrote:
On 08/10/2016 04:11 PM, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
I did not write the code if I did then there would likely have been a verify phase. Some people kind of expect when you tell the drive to write the data its just written and if it were not there would be an error. Kind of like disk drives most times. The 9 track tape drives I used to work on had a read after write head, so errors could be detected during write.
yes. Till the software writes 0000000000000* The tape full of zeros will verify quite correctly. Its kind of like dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/mt0 count=100009. -- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
On Wed, Aug 10, 2016 at 04:11:53PM -0400, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
Verify phase. You make me laugh. HAHAHA.
It's hard to do afterwards, since the data on the disk could have changed after you copied it unless of course you have enough space to stage the entire backup before writing it to tape. Good tape drive designs verify while writing (like LTO and such).
I did not write the code if I did then there would likely have been a verify phase. Some people kind of expect when you tell the drive to write the data its just written and if it were not there would be an error. Kind of like disk drives most times.
Anyway. When you do the verify you need to actually verify the data and not just the block checksums. Once upon a time a company I worked for had a bug that would write blank tapes. More correctly tapes full of zero filled blocks. They checksumed correctly so the quick check would succeed but not restore.
That's inconvinient. -- Len Sorensen
| From: James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | On 08/09/2016 04:12 PM, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote: | > I've given up on the use of tape. I use external hard drives for backup. | | You should always back up with tar to 9 track tape stands, the way the | computer gods intended. ;-) I did. Now I cannot read them. I have a box of them, slowly aging. I can still read my punch card and papertape backups, but *very* slowly (i.e. by eye). Open question: can I read my 5.35" quad density floppies (7th edition filesystem).
On 2016-08-09 04:15 PM, James Knott via talk wrote:
You should always back up with tar to 9 track tape stands, the way the computer gods intended. ;-)
For it is written ... eventually. Those who remember 9-track tape might be amused to see the "Richeson Lock Box" painter's palette, and recognize what it *really* is: https://www.currys.com/product.htm?Product=J208&Source=Category&Category=LOCK_BOX_PALETTE cheers, Stewart
On 08/09/2016 04:31 PM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
On 2016-08-09 04:15 PM, James Knott via talk wrote:
You should always back up with tar to 9 track tape stands, the way the computer gods intended. ;-) For it is written ... eventually.
Those who remember 9-track tape might be amused to see the "Richeson Lock Box" painter's palette, and recognize what it *really* is: https://www.currys.com/product.htm?Product=J208&Source=Category&Category=LOCK_BOX_PALETTE
That looks like a disk pack cover, not sure what model though. I used to work with Data General & DEC 200 MB drives, along with smaller packs with single or dual platters. The Data General "Gemini" drive comes to mind. I also used to work with DG, DEC and Collins (rebranded Potter) tape stands, mostly 9 track, but also a couple of 7 track.
On 2016-08-09 04:37 PM, James Knott wrote:
That looks like a disk pack cover, not sure what model though.
It's a 9 track box - the kind you got if you didn't have a big rack setup. They don't quite look the same without the 3M logo. cheers, Stewart
On 08/09/2016 11:18 PM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
On 2016-08-09 04:37 PM, James Knott wrote:
That looks like a disk pack cover, not sure what model though. It's a 9 track box - the kind you got if you didn't have a big rack setup. They don't quite look the same without the 3M logo.
That explains why I didn't recognize it. Where I worked we had the big racks.
Hello Stewart, Thanks for your message. Please see my comments inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart C. Russell via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> To: <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2016 3:54 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On 2016-08-09 09:35 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
On the Windows XP PC that is going to be replaced by the new Linux PC, the DDS-3 DAT SCSI tape drive has died, that does backup duty for the HDD. Died too soon by only a couple of months -- !@#$%^&*(!!
Better to spend $90 on something like a WD 1TB My Passport Portable External Hard Drive <http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=15_213_602&item_id=089777> than faff with tape. DAT-style drives and media just seem to self-destruct after a while. So many of my friends in the music industry have found that their cherished "DAT masters" are unreadable.
OK. Having heard this advice enough times, I'm convinced. Since I plan to use portable USB hard drives for backup on the new Linux PC, I will proceed to acquire one and try it out as a temporary backup device for the Windows XP PC, instead of the dead DDS-3 DAT tape drive. * * * I have dowloaded and installed SyncBackPro software, which is fully Windows XP compatible. http://www.2brightsparks.com/ I will use this to create backups on the new portable USB drive on the Windows XP PC.. * * * * * * The WD 1TB My Passport Portable External Hard Drive suggested by Stewart, comes with a USB 3.0 interface. I have already specified a WD HDD for the new Linux PC, so a WD portable USB drive would be my first choice. The WD portable USB 3.0 drive is downwards compatible with the USB 2.0 ports on the Windows XP PC. * * * * * * I have ordered one WD 1TB My Passport Portable External Hard Drive (WDBGPU0010BBK) from amazon.ca. Eventually this drive and two more, will serve as the backup devices on the new Linux PC. Thanks to GTALUG for (once again) teaching this old dog a new trick :)
cheers, Stewart
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participants (7)
-
Alvin Starr -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
James Knott -
Kevin Cozens -
Lennart Sorensen -
Steve Petrie, P.Eng. -
Stewart C. Russell