Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
Warm Greetings To GTALUG, Please forgive the long email. -- have to provide some background. BACKGROUND -- BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC I'm working to replace an old Dell Windows XP SP3 PC with a new PC, booting Debian Linux 8 as the primary OS, with Win 7 set up to run under QEMU / KVM vbirtualization under Debian. A multi-boot setup will allow booting Windows 7 (OEM) on bare metal, if required for occasional use. I definitely am NOT going to use MS Windows as the primary OS in my new desktop PC !! I have almost no Linux / Unix experience. Some years ago doing application programming on IBM AIX / Korn shell and now for personal and business uses, getting into Debian Linux (and DragonFlyBSD) on cloud-hosted QEMU / KVM virtualization servers. However I do have a strong IT background. (I'm a "retired" software engineer). On 7 January 2016 I sent an inquiry email to hi@gtalug.org and Myles Braithwaite responded instantly with helpfull suggestions for which I was very grateful. Myles also encouraged to join the talk@gtalug.org mailing list and so now here I am. I'm looking for advice from GTALUG members on two issues: 1. Comments on my proposed PC configuration. I have already researched components and developed a detailed hardware configuration for the new PC. Please see below. This configuration is not yet published on ca.partpicker.com. 2. Advice on how to get the PC built from components, that I will purchase retail and supply to the builder. Here, one option I propose is for a "creative" solution from GTALUG (see point 3, next section). * * * * * * HOW TO BUILD THE NEW DEBIAN 8 PC ? It seems to me that there are three approaches I could take, to get this new PC built: 1. BUILD IT MYSELF. I can handle purchasing all the components. However, although I am comfortable messing around inside the case of a computer, I've never build one from components. I would prefer to have the PC assembled by more experienced hands that have the skills and use of the right tools. So building myself is a last resort. 2. USE A COMMERCIAL PC SYSTEM BUILDER. Any suggestions from mailing list participants, on commercial PC builders would be gratefully received. However, I do not want to have to deal with import hassles, so the builder must be operating in Canada.(preferably in the GTA) Problem: It seems it will be difficult to interest commercial PC bulders in Canada to supply a competitively-priced PC configured with Linux. So if I use a commercial builder, the plan would be to get the PC built and delivered with with Windows 7 only installed, but have a multi-boot setup. After I get the PC I will install Debian 8 Linux as the primary host operating system, and then install Win 7 to run under QEMU / KVM virtualization under Debian. 3. *** CREATIVE IDEA FOR GTALUG *** Perhaps there is a member (or members) of GTALUG who would be able to build the PC from comnponents I supply. Naturally I would be happy to pay a fee for this service Or (and this would be my preference) perhaps GTALUG would be interested in taking on the buuild project as a club project. I expect I would be much more happy to pay money to GTALUG for helping with the build, and to get the pleasure of working with GTALUG, than I would be paying and dealing with a commercial builder. Since I live in Oakville in a small apartment, it would make more sense for the build to happen in Toronto.
From my casual research, there are many Win XP "orphans" like me out there. Not only older-type people stuck on Win XP and wondering what to do before their old PC dies. But also there are plenty of small businesses still running XP (in fact there are probably more small business XP users left, than consumer XP users).
You could consider me in a sense, a "poster senior" for a class of people, among whom some could possibly go the Linux route as they migrate away from Win XP. If only these poster seniors (or small business Win XP "orphans") had a helping hand from e.g. GTALUG. For example, run a kind of GTALUG "clinic" that Win XP "orphans" could come to (for a fee) and there work with GTALUG members to get their Linux PC built. And later get their data (e.g. emails) converted over to e.g. Thunderbird. Just a thought, for a way that GTALUG could get more involved with the wider community. And perhaps also pull in some club revenue to support GTALUG initiatives. Perhsps this is an idea the GTALUG Board could consider. I am happy to discuss the idea of being the "guinea pig" for such a project. * * * * * * PROPOSED PC CONFIGURATION Thsi is decidedly NOT a gamer's PC. It is intended to be an ultra-reliable, powerful, fast professional / small business workstation . There is no overclocking. There are no add-in graphics cards. It uses established CPU technology now being price-discounted because of the introduction of new CPU technology. ----------------- ----------------- CPU Intel 4-Core i5-4460 3.2GHz Processor, 64-bit, 6 MB cache, max 32 GB RAM, HD graphics; CPU Cooler Noctua NH-U12S 55.0 CFM CPU Cooler, height w/fan 158mm, clears RAM & PCIe, PWM control; Motherboard ASRock Z97 EXTREME6 ATX LGA1150 Mainboard, PCIe: 2x 3.0x16, 1x 2.0x16, 2x 2.0x1, 1x mini, Ultra M.2 Gen3 8Gb/s x4 (uses 4x PCIe 3.0 CPU socket lanes), extra large heat sinks; Memory Crucial Ballistix Tactical Tracer 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3-1600 RAM, 1.35 volt, timings 8-8-8-24; ----------------- Case Fractal Design Define R5 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case, 3-speed fan control (max 3 fans), bays: fan 9, drive: 2x5.25", 8x3.5", 2xSSD, CPU cooler height max 180mm, 2 dust filters; Power Supply EVGA SuperNOVA P2 850W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply; ----------------- Solid State Drive Samsung SM951 128GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive, AHCI PCIe Gen3 8Gb/s x4, 256 MB cache, P/N MZHPV128HDGM; Hard Drive Western Digital Caviar Blue Internal Hard Drive 750GB 3.5" 7200RPM 6Gb/s SATA 64MB cache; Optical Drive LG WH16NS40 Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Writer, SATA, 2/3/4 layers (128GB), 4MB data buffer; ----------------- Video Monitor LG 22MB35DM-I 21.5" Monitor Full HD 1080p 1920x1080 IPS LED Back-lit, DVI-D, D-Sub, contrast ratios: (static 1,000:1), (dynamic 5M:1), reader mode, flicker-safe; Keyboard Dell SK-8110 PS/2 Keyboard, PS/2 Interface, Black, DP/N 07N242, 104 keys, cable with purple 6 pin mini-DIN male (PS/2 STYLE) connector; Mouse Logitech SBF-96 PS/2 Wired Optical Mouse, 3 Buttons, wheel, cable with green 6 pin mini-DIN male (PS/2 STYLE) connector; ----------------- Dialup Modem US Robotics USR5638 56K* V.92, internal dial-up faxmodem card, (PCIe) PCI Express x1; ----------------- ----------------- Multi-Boot Main Host OS O/S Debian 8 LXDE Linux -- x86_64 (QEMU / KVM host o/s to Win7 x86_64 guest o/s); ISO on DVD (standard Debian installation ISO **NOT LIVE installation ISO**); Guest OS Microsoft Windows 7 Professional Full, 32/64-bit, from ISO on DVD (guest o/s of Deb8); Emergency OS Microsoft Windows 7 Professional Full, 32/64-bit, ISO on DVD (emergency multi-boot); ----------------- ----------------- Cables @@@??? Power Bar @@@??? ----------------- ----------------- The same configuratiton is attached as a PDF <ca.pcpartpicker.com -- deb8_win7_dual-boot_PC_business_24_7_duty - summary_bare - Steve_Petrie - 20160313.pdf>. For simplicity, I have omitted mention of: a SCSI controller, and a SCSI tape drive, and speakers. All of which I will acquire later, after the base PC is working. * * * * * * Many thanks to list members for taking the time to consider my email. Comments, questions welcome: 1. On the proposed PC configuration, 2. On the idea of GTALUG helping with the build project. Best Regards, Steve * * * Steve Petrie, P.Eng. ITS-ETO Consortium Oakville, Ontario, Canada (905) 847-3253 apetrie@aspetrie.net
On 25 July 2016 at 10:47, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Warm Greetings To GTALUG,
Please forgive the long email. -- have to provide some background.
BACKGROUND -- BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC
I'm working to replace an old Dell Windows XP SP3 PC with a new PC, booting Debian Linux 8 as the primary OS, with Win 7 set up to run under QEMU / KVM vbirtualization under Debian. A multi-boot setup will allow booting Windows 7 (OEM) on bare metal, if required for occasional use. I definitely am NOT going to use MS Windows as the primary OS in my new desktop PC !!
I have almost no Linux / Unix experience. Some years ago doing application programming on IBM AIX / Korn shell and now for personal and business uses, getting into Debian Linux (and DragonFlyBSD) on cloud-hosted QEMU / KVM virtualization servers. However I do have a strong IT background. (I'm a "retired" software engineer).
On 7 January 2016 I sent an inquiry email to hi@gtalug.org and Myles Braithwaite responded instantly with helpfull suggestions for which I was very grateful. Myles also encouraged to join the talk@gtalug.org mailing list and so now here I am.
I'm looking for advice from GTALUG members on two issues:
1. Comments on my proposed PC configuration. I have already researched components and developed a detailed hardware configuration for the new PC. Please see below. This configuration is not yet published on ca.partpicker.com.
2. Advice on how to get the PC built from components, that I will purchase retail and supply to the builder. Here, one option I propose is for a "creative" solution from GTALUG (see point 3, next section).
* * * * * *
HOW TO BUILD THE NEW DEBIAN 8 PC ?
It seems to me that there are three approaches I could take, to get this new PC built:
1. BUILD IT MYSELF. I can handle purchasing all the components. However, although I am comfortable messing around inside the case of a computer, I've never build one from components. I would prefer to have the PC assembled by more experienced hands that have the skills and use of the right tools. So building myself is a last resort.
2. USE A COMMERCIAL PC SYSTEM BUILDER. Any suggestions from mailing list participants, on commercial PC builders would be gratefully received. However, I do not want to have to deal with import hassles, so the builder must be operating in Canada.(preferably in the GTA)
Problem: It seems it will be difficult to interest commercial PC bulders in Canada to supply a competitively-priced PC configured with Linux. So if I use a commercial builder, the plan would be to get the PC built and delivered with with Windows 7 only installed, but have a multi-boot setup. After I get the PC I will install Debian 8 Linux as the primary host operating system, and then install Win 7 to run under QEMU / KVM virtualization under Debian.
3. *** CREATIVE IDEA FOR GTALUG *** Perhaps there is a member (or members) of GTALUG who would be able to build the PC from comnponents I supply. Naturally I would be happy to pay a fee for this service Or (and this would be my preference) perhaps GTALUG would be interested in taking on the buuild project as a club project. I expect I would be much more happy to pay money to GTALUG for helping with the build, and to get the pleasure of working with GTALUG, than I would be paying and dealing with a commercial builder. Since I live in Oakville in a small apartment, it would make more sense for the build to happen in Toronto.
From my casual research, there are many Win XP "orphans" like me out there. Not only older-type people stuck on Win XP and wondering what to do before their old PC dies. But also there are plenty of small businesses still running XP (in fact there are probably more small business XP users left, than consumer XP users).
You could consider me in a sense, a "poster senior" for a class of people, among whom some could possibly go the Linux route as they migrate away from Win XP. If only these poster seniors (or small business Win XP "orphans") had a helping hand from e.g. GTALUG. For example, run a kind of GTALUG "clinic" that Win XP "orphans" could come to (for a fee) and there work with GTALUG members to get their Linux PC built. And later get their data (e.g. emails) converted over to e.g. Thunderbird.
Just a thought, for a way that GTALUG could get more involved with the wider community. And perhaps also pull in some club revenue to support GTALUG initiatives. Perhsps this is an idea the GTALUG Board could consider. I am happy to discuss the idea of being the "guinea pig" for such a project.
* * * * * *
PROPOSED PC CONFIGURATION
Thsi is decidedly NOT a gamer's PC. It is intended to be an ultra-reliable, powerful, fast professional / small business workstation . There is no overclocking. There are no add-in graphics cards. It uses established CPU technology now being price-discounted because of the introduction of new CPU technology.
----------------- ----------------- CPU Intel 4-Core i5-4460 3.2GHz Processor, 64-bit, 6 MB cache, max 32 GB RAM, HD graphics; CPU Cooler Noctua NH-U12S 55.0 CFM CPU Cooler, height w/fan 158mm, clears RAM & PCIe, PWM control; Motherboard ASRock Z97 EXTREME6 ATX LGA1150 Mainboard, PCIe: 2x 3.0x16, 1x 2.0x16, 2x 2.0x1, 1x mini, Ultra M.2 Gen3 8Gb/s x4 (uses 4x PCIe 3.0 CPU socket lanes), extra large heat sinks; Memory Crucial Ballistix Tactical Tracer 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3-1600 RAM, 1.35 volt, timings 8-8-8-24; ----------------- Case Fractal Design Define R5 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case, 3-speed fan control (max 3 fans), bays: fan 9, drive: 2x5.25", 8x3.5", 2xSSD, CPU cooler height max 180mm, 2 dust filters; Power Supply EVGA SuperNOVA P2 850W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply; ----------------- Solid State Drive Samsung SM951 128GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive, AHCI PCIe Gen3 8Gb/s x4, 256 MB cache, P/N MZHPV128HDGM; Hard Drive Western Digital Caviar Blue Internal Hard Drive 750GB 3.5" 7200RPM 6Gb/s SATA 64MB cache; Optical Drive LG WH16NS40 Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Writer, SATA, 2/3/4 layers (128GB), 4MB data buffer; ----------------- Video Monitor LG 22MB35DM-I 21.5" Monitor Full HD 1080p 1920x1080 IPS LED Back-lit, DVI-D, D-Sub, contrast ratios: (static 1,000:1), (dynamic 5M:1), reader mode, flicker-safe; Keyboard Dell SK-8110 PS/2 Keyboard, PS/2 Interface, Black, DP/N 07N242, 104 keys, cable with purple 6 pin mini-DIN male (PS/2 STYLE) connector; Mouse Logitech SBF-96 PS/2 Wired Optical Mouse, 3 Buttons, wheel, cable with green 6 pin mini-DIN male (PS/2 STYLE) connector; ----------------- Dialup Modem US Robotics USR5638 56K* V.92, internal dial-up faxmodem card, (PCIe) PCI Express x1; ----------------- ----------------- Multi-Boot Main Host OS O/S Debian 8 LXDE Linux -- x86_64 (QEMU / KVM host o/s to Win7 x86_64 guest o/s); ISO on DVD (standard Debian installation ISO **NOT LIVE installation ISO**); Guest OS Microsoft Windows 7 Professional Full, 32/64-bit, from ISO on DVD (guest o/s of Deb8); Emergency OS Microsoft Windows 7 Professional Full, 32/64-bit, ISO on DVD (emergency multi-boot); ----------------- ----------------- Cables @@@??? Power Bar @@@??? ----------------- -----------------
The same configuratiton is attached as a PDF <ca.pcpartpicker.com -- deb8_win7_dual-boot_PC_business_24_7_duty - summary_bare - Steve_Petrie - 20160313.pdf>.
For simplicity, I have omitted mention of: a SCSI controller, and a SCSI tape drive, and speakers. All of which I will acquire later, after the base PC is working.
* * * * * *
Many thanks to list members for taking the time to consider my email.
Comments, questions welcome: 1. On the proposed PC configuration, 2. On the idea of GTALUG helping with the build project.
My suggestions: - build it yourself. If you're comfortable mucking around inside a PC, you already have the skills. From my first build I think the only thing that got somewhat alarming was having to get and apply thermal paste to the main processor, and getting the clips on the processor in place. It's a very good way to get to know the PC, and you'll do a better build than any paid tech because it's _yours_. - if you really need the dial-up modem, install it (although I suspect Linux support is poor - check it thoroughly). Otherwise, don't bother with it. - you didn't mention a video card. If the motherboard has one onboard and you're planning to use that, the power supply sounds like overkill (even given the later addition of SCSI stuff ... which I'd suggest avoiding if you can, it's another justifiably dying breed like the modem). Buy a smaller capacity (500W?) and better power supply ... although I admit I'm going on years-old memories, EVGA wasn't one of the best suppliers "back in the day". Something for you to research a bit more perhaps. - BluRay support on Linux is ... limited. You can probably use it for backup, but you won't be able to play back commercial movies. You might use it under Windows. - go with 16G of memory if you can afford it: it's not critical, but you'll probably enjoy it - and it will help a lot with running VMs. But it's also the easiest thing to upgrade later. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Giles Orr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 25 July 2016 at 10:47, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
snip
- BluRay support on Linux is ... limited. You can probably use it for backup, but you won't be able to play back commercial movies. You might use it under Windows.
Well - - - I've never tried to watch a movie I just use mine for burning and reading CD roms, DVD roms and Blueray roms so there is some support! Dee
On 25 July 2016 at 12:18, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 10:49 AM, Giles Orr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 25 July 2016 at 10:47, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote: - BluRay support on Linux is ... limited. You can probably use it for backup, but you won't be able to play back commercial movies. You might use it under Windows.
Well - - - I've never tried to watch a movie I just use mine for burning and reading CD roms, DVD roms and Blueray roms so there is some support!
My assumption (perhaps incorrect) is that most people see "BluRay" and think "I can play movies." I should perhaps have been clearer: BluRay support in Linux appears to be pretty good so long as you're not dealing with DRM, at which point it becomes pretty much non-existent. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com
On Mon, 25 Jul 2016 11:49:41 -0400 Giles Orr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
My suggestions: - build it yourself. If you're comfortable mucking around inside a PC, you already have the skills. From my first build I think the only thing that got somewhat alarming was having to get and apply thermal paste to the main processor, and getting the clips on the processor in place. It's a very good way to get to know the PC, and you'll do a better build than any paid tech because it's _yours_. - if you really need the dial-up modem, install it (although I suspect Linux support is poor - check it thoroughly). Otherwise, don't bother with it. - you didn't mention a video card. If the motherboard has one onboard and you're planning to use that, the power supply sounds like overkill (even given the later addition of SCSI stuff ... which I'd suggest avoiding if you can, it's another justifiably dying breed like the modem). Buy a smaller capacity (500W?) and better power supply ... although I admit I'm going on years-old memories, EVGA wasn't one of the best suppliers "back in the day". Something for you to research a bit more perhaps. - BluRay support on Linux is ... limited. You can probably use it for backup, but you won't be able to play back commercial movies. You might use it under Windows. - go with 16G of memory if you can afford it: it's not critical, but you'll probably enjoy it - and it will help a lot with running VMs. But it's also the easiest thing to upgrade later.
Giles, I have a BluRay burner here. It did not play my Game of Thrones BluRay disk. It does an excellent job of backups. The BluRay disks are cheap. When I replaced my motherboard, the new AMD processor had the thermal paste on it. I just installed the thing as per the instructions. -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca howard.gibson@teledyneoptech.com jhowardgibson@gmail.com http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
Hello Giles, Thanks for your response. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Giles Orr via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 11:49 AM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On 25 July 2016 at 10:47, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Warm Greetings To GTALUG,
snip
----------------- ----------------- CPU Intel 4-Core i5-4460 3.2GHz Processor, 64-bit, 6 MB cache, max 32 GB RAM, HD graphics; CPU Cooler Noctua NH-U12S 55.0 CFM CPU Cooler, height w/fan 158mm, clears RAM & PCIe, PWM control; Motherboard ASRock Z97 EXTREME6 ATX LGA1150 Mainboard, PCIe: 2x 3.0x16, 1x 2.0x16, 2x 2.0x1, 1x mini, Ultra M.2 Gen3 8Gb/s x4 (uses 4x PCIe 3.0 CPU socket lanes), extra large heat sinks; Memory Crucial Ballistix Tactical Tracer 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3-1600 RAM, 1.35 volt, timings 8-8-8-24; ----------------- Case Fractal Design Define R5 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case, 3-speed fan control (max 3 fans), bays: fan 9, drive: 2x5.25", 8x3.5", 2xSSD, CPU cooler height max 180mm, 2 dust filters; Power Supply EVGA SuperNOVA P2 850W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply; ----------------- Solid State Drive Samsung SM951 128GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive, AHCI PCIe Gen3 8Gb/s x4, 256 MB cache, P/N MZHPV128HDGM; Hard Drive Western Digital Caviar Blue Internal Hard Drive 750GB 3.5" 7200RPM 6Gb/s SATA 64MB cache; Optical Drive LG WH16NS40 Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Writer, SATA, 2/3/4 layers (128GB), 4MB data buffer; ----------------- Video Monitor LG 22MB35DM-I 21.5" Monitor Full HD 1080p 1920x1080 IPS LED Back-lit, DVI-D, D-Sub, contrast ratios: (static 1,000:1), (dynamic 5M:1), reader mode, flicker-safe; Keyboard Dell SK-8110 PS/2 Keyboard, PS/2 Interface, Black, DP/N 07N242, 104 keys, cable with purple 6 pin mini-DIN male (PS/2 STYLE) connector; Mouse Logitech SBF-96 PS/2 Wired Optical Mouse, 3 Buttons, wheel, cable with green 6 pin mini-DIN male (PS/2 STYLE) connector; ----------------- Dialup Modem US Robotics USR5638 56K* V.92, internal dial-up faxmodem card, (PCIe) PCI Express x1; ----------------- ----------------- Multi-Boot Main Host OS O/S Debian 8 LXDE Linux -- x86_64 (QEMU / KVM host o/s to Win7 x86_64 guest o/s); ISO on DVD (standard Debian installation ISO **NOT LIVE installation ISO**); Guest OS Microsoft Windows 7 Professional Full, 32/64-bit, from ISO on DVD (guest o/s of Deb8); Emergency OS Microsoft Windows 7 Professional Full, 32/64-bit, ISO on DVD (emergency multi-boot); ----------------- ----------------- Cables @@@??? Power Bar @@@??? ----------------- -----------------
snip
My suggestions: - build it yourself. If you're comfortable mucking around inside a PC, you already have the skills. From my first build I think the only thing that got somewhat alarming was having to get and apply thermal paste to the main processor, and getting the clips on the processor in place. It's a very good way to get to know the PC, and you'll do a better build than any paid tech because it's _yours_.
I understand your point. If I were 40 years younger, and could treat the new PC as an experiment, I would build it myself. However, this is probably going to be the last computer I ever own. And I'm going to be dependent on it for all personal and business uses, so I prefer not to get into the pleasures of building it myself.
- if you really need the dial-up modem, install it (although I suspect Linux support is poor - check it thoroughly). Otherwise, don't bother with it.
I have already done some research and as you say, Linux support is for dial-up modems is not strong e.g. linmodems.org Since I don't use the Internet for music or videos, the slow modem speed is not a big problem for me. Email works fine. Web browsing is often painful, but I just multitask while slow bloated pages load. I do recognise that dial-up is obsiolete. My plan is to upgrade to a DSL service. So dial-up modem support is not essential for the new Linux PC, but I would like to try to get dial-up working, more out of curiosity than necessity. My dial-up ISP performance with the existing PC (Dell Win XP) has deteriorated over the past couple of years. I am interested to find out if dial-up works better on Linux.
- you didn't mention a video card. If the motherboard has one onboard and you're planning to use that, the power supply sounds like overkill (even given the later addition of SCSI stuff ... which I'd suggest avoiding if you can, it's another justifiably dying breed like the modem). Buy a smaller capacity (500W?) and better power supply ... although I admit I'm going on years-old memories, EVGA wasn't one of the best suppliers "back in the day". Something for you to research a bit more perhaps.
Yes, the power supply is overkill for the PC config as specified. I estimate the power load at around 300W so a 500W power supply should be plenty. I'm planning to use the video support on the Intel chipset. But I want spare power in case I decide to get a video card later. Or add other cards e.g. SCSI. The main reason for the 850W power supply is extreme conservatism. I prefer not to operate the power supply at more than 50% of its rated maximum output (after allowing for extra load from later upgrades). But frugality may make me take your advice. I am satisfied that EVGA is a good quality product. It does come with a 3-year warranty.
- BluRay support on Linux is ... limited. You can probably use it for backup, but you won't be able to play back commercial movies. You might use it under Windows.
I don't watch movies. I never owned a TV in my entire life. As you guessed, I need the BluRay optical drive for data purposes e.g software installations, data exchange and maybe backup.
- go with 16G of memory if you can afford it: it's not critical, but you'll probably enjoy it - and it will help a lot with running VMs. But it's also the easiest thing to upgrade later.
I suffered for a few years with slow WinXP speed on my existing Dell PC, because when I bought it, I had let frugality overrule valuation of my time. I almost wept with joy at the much snappier speed, after I installed the Dell memory upgrade :) So I will probably take your very good advice and upgrade the spec to 16 MB RAM.
-- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Warm Greetings To GTALUG,
Please forgive the long email. -- have to provide some background.
BACKGROUND -- BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC
I'm working to replace an old Dell Windows XP SP3 PC with a new PC, booting Debian Linux 8 as the primary OS, with Win 7 set up to run under QEMU / KVM vbirtualization under Debian. A multi-boot setup will allow booting Windows 7 (OEM) on bare metal, if required for occasional use. I definitely am NOT going to use MS Windows as the primary OS in my new desktop PC !!
I have almost no Linux / Unix experience. Some years ago doing application programming on IBM AIX / Korn shell and now for personal and business uses, getting into Debian Linux (and DragonFlyBSD) on cloud-hosted QEMU / KVM virtualization servers. However I do have a strong IT background. (I'm a "retired" software engineer).
I haven't run the QEMU/KVM VM setup you are talking about but I have run Oracle's VirtualBox VM setup. Not an expert by any stretch but have found some holes and some good things in VirtualBox (called VBox sometimes). Would suggest that you look into it for an idea. I have a Win7 iteration with it having no network connection or one might call it in an electronic jail.
On 7 January 2016 I sent an inquiry email to hi@gtalug.org and Myles Braithwaite responded instantly with helpfull suggestions for which I was very grateful. Myles also encouraged to join the talk@gtalug.org mailing list and so now here I am.
I'm looking for advice from GTALUG members on two issues:
1. Comments on my proposed PC configuration. I have already researched components and developed a detailed hardware configuration for the new PC. Please see below. This configuration is not yet published on ca.partpicker.com.
2. Advice on how to get the PC built from components, that I will purchase retail and supply to the builder. Here, one option I propose is for a "creative" solution from GTALUG (see point 3, next section).
* * * * * *
HOW TO BUILD THE NEW DEBIAN 8 PC ?
snip I worked for a number of months building systems so I can tell you that with minimal guidance it is easy to build a box BUT - - - you will likely not get any warranties that way. Would suggest that you get a firm that lets you 'build to your spec' build it for you. It was $50 the last time I had it done and its then got a warranty and you know all the parts work (DOA parts do happen!). They will likely not install Debian or any other flavor of Linux (there are a few exceptions out there!) so that would be your issue.
From my casual research, there are many Win XP "orphans" like me out there. Not only older-type people stuck on Win XP and wondering what to do before their old PC dies. But also there are plenty of small businesses still running XP (in fact there are probably more small business XP users left, than consumer XP users).
There are lots of big businesses that are still running XP - - - think the banks!
You could consider me in a sense, a "poster senior" for a class of people, among whom some could possibly go the Linux route as they migrate away from Win XP. If only these poster seniors (or small business Win XP "orphans") had a helping hand from e.g. GTALUG. For example, run a kind of GTALUG "clinic" that Win XP "orphans" could come to (for a fee) and there work with GTALUG members to get their Linux PC built. And later get their data (e.g. emails) converted over to e.g. Thunderbird.
Just a thought, for a way that GTALUG could get more involved with the wider community. And perhaps also pull in some club revenue to support GTALUG initiatives. Perhsps this is an idea the GTALUG Board could consider. I am happy to discuss the idea of being the "guinea pig" for such a project.
Wish I were physically in the GTA catchment!
* * * * * *
PROPOSED PC CONFIGURATION
Thsi is decidedly NOT a gamer's PC. It is intended to be an ultra-reliable, powerful, fast professional / small business workstation . There is no overclocking. There are no add-in graphics cards. It uses established CPU technology now being price-discounted because of the introduction of new CPU technology.
----------------- ----------------- CPU Intel 4-Core i5-4460 3.2GHz Processor, 64-bit, 6 MB cache, max 32 GB RAM, HD graphics; CPU Cooler Noctua NH-U12S 55.0 CFM CPU Cooler, height w/fan 158mm, clears RAM & PCIe, PWM control; Motherboard ASRock Z97 EXTREME6 ATX LGA1150 Mainboard, PCIe: 2x 3.0x16, 1x 2.0x16, 2x 2.0x1, 1x mini, Ultra M.2 Gen3 8Gb/s x4 (uses 4x PCIe 3.0 CPU socket lanes), extra large heat sinks; Memory Crucial Ballistix Tactical Tracer 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3-1600 RAM, 1.35 volt, timings 8-8-8-24;
would suggest going up a notch to 12 or better 16 GB of RAM - - - with running VMs RAM is a useful commodity!!
----------------- Case Fractal Design Define R5 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case, 3-speed fan control (max 3 fans), bays: fan 9, drive: 2x5.25", 8x3.5", 2xSSD, CPU cooler height max 180mm, 2 dust filters; Power Supply EVGA SuperNOVA P2 850W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply; ----------------- Solid State Drive Samsung SM951 128GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive, AHCI PCIe Gen3 8Gb/s x4, 256 MB cache, P/N MZHPV128HDGM; Hard Drive Western Digital Caviar Blue Internal Hard Drive 750GB 3.5" 7200RPM 6Gb/s SATA 64MB cache;
Would suggest going larger on this as it would only be a few dollars to go to 1 TB and not that much more to go to 2 TB. The sweet spot for hard drives IIRC is right around 3 TB (minimum cost per unit storage per dollar)
Optical Drive LG WH16NS40 Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Writer, SATA, 2/3/4 layers (128GB), 4MB data buffer; ----------------- Video Monitor LG 22MB35DM-I 21.5" Monitor Full HD 1080p 1920x1080 IPS LED Back-lit, DVI-D, D-Sub, contrast ratios: (static 1,000:1), (dynamic 5M:1), reader mode, flicker-safe;
Would suggest running 2 of these - - - you'd find yourself wondering how you had done without before! (I'm running 4 (24") and wish I had the money to add the 5th!)
Keyboard Dell SK-8110 PS/2 Keyboard, PS/2 Interface, Black, DP/N 07N242, 104 keys, cable with purple 6 pin mini-DIN male (PS/2 STYLE) connector;
Have you ever considered an ergonomic keyboard? Love mine and it makes typing fast much easier on the hands!!
Mouse Logitech SBF-96 PS/2 Wired Optical Mouse, 3 Buttons, wheel, cable with green 6 pin mini-DIN male (PS/2 STYLE) connector; ----------------- Dialup Modem US Robotics USR5638 56K* V.92, internal dial-up faxmodem card, (PCIe) PCI Express x1;
Not sure how well this will work in a *nix system - - - would need to verify that drivers are available!!!
----------------- ----------------- Multi-Boot Main Host OS O/S Debian 8 LXDE Linux -- x86_64 (QEMU / KVM host o/s to Win7 x86_64 guest o/s); ISO on DVD (standard Debian installation ISO **NOT LIVE installation ISO**); Guest OS Microsoft Windows 7 Professional Full, 32/64-bit, from ISO on DVD (guest o/s of Deb8); Emergency OS Microsoft Windows 7 Professional Full, 32/64-bit, ISO on DVD (emergency multi-boot); ----------------- ----------------- Cables @@@??? Power Bar @@@??? ----------------- -----------------
The same configuratiton is attached as a PDF <ca.pcpartpicker.com -- deb8_win7_dual-boot_PC_business_24_7_duty - summary_bare - Steve_Petrie - 20160313.pdf>.
For simplicity, I have omitted mention of: a SCSI controller, and a SCSI tape drive, and speakers. All of which I will acquire later, after the base PC is working.
Why would you want the tape drive - - - use the blueray - - - you have 125 GB of room - - - even the 25 GB discs are almost cheap - - - that's lots of work product space! Dee
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 11:15:36AM -0500, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk
Dialup Modem US Robotics USR5638 56K* V.92, internal dial-up faxmodem card, (PCIe) PCI Express x1;
Not sure how well this will work in a *nix system - - - would need to verify that drivers are available!!!
They are not, and most likely never will be. -- Len Sorensen
On Mon 25 Jul 2016 16:07 -0400, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 11:15:36AM -0500, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk
Dialup Modem US Robotics USR5638 56K* V.92, internal dial-up faxmodem card, (PCIe) PCI Express x1;
Not sure how well this will work in a *nix system - - - would need to verify that drivers are available!!!
They are not, and most likely never will be.
Perhaps for a modest price? http://www.linuxant.com/drivers/
Hello Loui, Thanks for your response. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loui Chang via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> To: "Lennart Sorensen" <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 10:05 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Mon 25 Jul 2016 16:07 -0400, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 11:15:36AM -0500, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk
Dialup Modem US Robotics USR5638 56K* V.92, internal dial-up faxmodem card, (PCIe) PCI Express x1;
Not sure how well this will work in a *nix system - - - would need to verify that drivers are available!!!
They are not, and most likely never will be.
Perhaps for a modest price? http://www.linuxant.com/drivers/ ---
I took a quick look at the site. Looks like an interesting possibility.
Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Sent from mobile. On Jul 26, 2016 9:41 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hello Loui,
Thanks for your response.
<snip the middle>
Perhaps for a modest price? http://www.linuxant.com/drivers/ ---
I took a quick look at the site.
Looks like an interesting possibility.
The hylafax site has a good list of Linux comparable modems. http://www.hylafax.org/site1/modems.html
Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Sent from mobile.
Hello Russell, Thanks for your response. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell Reiter" <rreiter91@gmail.com> To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org>; "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 9:57 AM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
Sent from mobile.
On Jul 26, 2016 9:41 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hello Loui,
Thanks for your response.
<snip the middle>
Perhaps for a modest price? http://www.linuxant.com/drivers/ ---
I took a quick look at the site.
Looks like an interesting possibility.
The hylafax site has a good list of Linux comparable modems.
Brilliant !!
From what I see at the site, this product looks very promising for my use:
-- "HylaFAX is a telecommunication system for UNIX systems. It supports: ... transparent shared data use of the modem" which is exactly what I'm looking for (data use); -- "WHICH MODEMS CAN BE USED WITH HYLAFAX" the compatibility table shows some USRobotics (now 3Com) modems, but none are recommended, so I will look to buy a recommended modem instead; -- "Download ... HylaFAX is freely available under copyright in complete source form. ... Various binary packages are available for HylaFAX. They are currently available in two places";
Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Sent from mobile.
| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> | ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell Reiter" <rreiter91@gmail.com> | > The hylafax site has a good list of Linux comparable modems. | > | > http://www.hylafax.org/site1/modems.html | > | | Brilliant !! | | >From what I see at the site, this product looks very promising for my | use: | | -- "HylaFAX is a telecommunication system for UNIX systems. It supports: | ... transparent shared data use of the modem" which is exactly what I'm | looking for (data use); I don't think it is useful to you. The point of HylaFAX is to support FAXing. Conveniently, it allowed non-FAX uses to share the same serial port. But elsewhere you said you didn't do any FAXing. So there is no benefit in running HylaFAX. I ran HylaFAX for years. Because I needed FAXing. It was a bit complicated to set up. Partly because I used an unsupported FAX modem so I had to configure the software and the modem to get along. Partly because HylaFAX is meant to handle larger-scale FAX installations (many users, several FAX modems, ...). It turns out that many FAX modems incorrectly implement the various standards. Modems with Class II FAXing commands are theoretically best because they make fewer realtime demands on the computer. But in practice, the implementations are often sub-standard. Linux is (used to be?) quite adept handling modems. That was part of the culture in the beginning. But for internet access you need to use something a little more intricate: PPP. My ISP (Telnet Communications) provides me with ADSL and VDSL broadband over phone lines. This does not interfere with using the phone lines for voice at the same time. As a bonus, they used to allow customers so many hours a month of telephone MODEM access at no extra charge; they may have stopped -- I would not have noticed. Interestingly enough, ADSL uses PPPoE (PPP over Ethernet (instead of RS232 or the like)). | -- "WHICH MODEMS CAN BE USED WITH HYLAFAX" the compatibility table shows | some USRobotics (now 3Com) modems, but none are recommended, so I will | look to buy a recommended modem instead; That's almost all about Class I and Class II FAX command support.
On Jul 28, 2016 6:29 PM, "D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org>
| ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell Reiter" <rreiter91@gmail.com
| > The hylafax site has a good list of Linux comparable modems. | > | > http://www.hylafax.org/site1/modems.html | > | | Brilliant !! | | >From what I see at the site, this product looks very promising for my | use: | | -- "HylaFAX is a telecommunication system for UNIX systems. It supports: | ... transparent shared data use of the modem" which is exactly what I'm | looking for (data use);
I don't think it is useful to you.
True enough. The description of the box, it's purpose, and the current availability of internet connectivity made me assume the modem in the description was to be used for faxing for a home based business. Fax is still widely used in B2B and customer communication. I hadn't even thought of dialup to an ISP. <snip>
That's almost all about Class I and Class II FAX command support. --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Russell Sent from mobile.
Hello Hugh, Thanks for your message. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "D. Hugh Redelmeier" <hugh@mimosa.com> To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 6:29 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org>
| ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell Reiter" <rreiter91@gmail.com>
| > The hylafax site has a good list of Linux comparable modems. | > | > http://www.hylafax.org/site1/modems.html | > | | Brilliant !! | | >From what I see at the site, this product looks very promising for my | use: | | -- "HylaFAX is a telecommunication system for UNIX systems. It supports: | ... transparent shared data use of the modem" which is exactly what I'm | looking for (data use);
I don't think it is useful to you.
The point of HylaFAX is to support FAXing. Conveniently, it allowed non-FAX uses to share the same serial port. But elsewhere you said you didn't do any FAXing. So there is no benefit in running HylaFAX.
So for me, HylaFAX is a cumbersome last-resort workaround, if I can't find any easier way to get a dial-up modem working under Linux. <snip>
On Jul 30, 2016 1:28 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote: <snip>
So for me, HylaFAX is a cumbersome last-resort workaround, if I can't
find any easier way to get a dial-up modem working under Linux.
This device looks promising to me. New Old Stock is the reason I go to Above All etc. http://m.ebay.ca/itm/US-Robotics-56K-USB-Modem-Windows-Mac-Linux-/2723053260... http://support.usr.com/support/5637/5637-ug/install.html Here's a snippet from the support page. "Linux Kernel 2.4.20 and Higher You need a USB modem driver (CDC ACM) compiled into a Linux kernel 2.4.20 or higher or as a loadable module for your kernel. Installation of the modem under these kernels is fully automatic provided your kernel has the Plug and Play module enabled (default). You do not need to install any drivers off the USRobotics installation CD-ROM. " If you browse eBay you will find lots of OEM stuff with CD's and linux drivers. The problem with this is twofold, kernel age and the driver packaging. ie. might have only an rpm, in which case you'd have to repack as dpkg and or tinker with libraries which address the older kernel. You have to be able to access the UART or s/w emulationion used by the device. Unfortunately even knowing the series number is not enough, there are a number of iterations. Here are a couple of quotes from, https://www.freebsd.org/doc/en/articles/serial-uart/ "NS16550 Same as NS16450 with a 16-byte send and receive buffer but the buffer design was flawed and could not be reliably be used. NS16550A Same as NS16550 with the buffer flaws corrected. The 16550A and its successors have become the most popular UART design in the PC industry, mainly due to its ability to reliably handle higher data rates on operating systems with sluggish interrupt response times." "In internal modems, the modem designer will frequently emulate the 8250A/16450 with the modem microprocessor, and the emulated UART will frequently have a hidden buffer consisting of several hundred bytes. Because of the size of the buffer, these emulations can be as reliable as a 16550A in their ability to handle high speed data. However, most operating systems will still report that the UART is only a 8250A or 16450, and may not make effective use of the extra buffering present in the emulated UART unless special drivers are used."
<snip> --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Russell Sent from mobile.
Hello Russell, Thanks for your message. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell Reiter" <rreiter91@gmail.com> To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org>; "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 10:48 AM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Jul 30, 2016 1:28 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
<snip>
<snip>
This device looks promising to me. New Old Stock is the reason I go to Above All etc.
http://m.ebay.ca/itm/US-Robotics-56K-USB-Modem-Windows-Mac-Linux-/2723053260...
http://support.usr.com/support/5637/5637-ug/install.html
Here's a snippet from the support page.
"Linux Kernel 2.4.20 and Higher
You need a USB modem driver (CDC ACM) compiled into a Linux kernel 2.4.20 or higher or as a loadable module for your kernel. Installation of the modem under these kernels is fully automatic provided your kernel has the Plug and Play module enabled (default). You do not need to install any drivers off the USRobotics installation CD-ROM. "
Thanks for this !! Looks very promising !! Seems that USB support for modems is being kept up-to-date in Linux, as the usb modem driver source code is present in linux 3.16 kernel (used by debian 8): drivers/usb/class/cdc-acm.c drivers/usb/class/cdc-acm.h Also, I see a web page with a Linux patch notice dated 17 November 2014 "[3.16.y-ckt,stable] Patch "USB: cdc-acm: add quirk for control-line state requests" has been added to staging queue". Now that I think on it, didn't you mention earlier on this thread, getting access to a mobile device (cell phone?) modem from Linux? Using Google, I found lots of documentation on getting USB modems to work on Linux (including the PPP stuff for the dial-up Internet link). So I will try a USRobotics USR5637 56K V.92 USB modem. <snip>
<snip> --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Russell Sent from mobile.
On Aug 1, 2016 10:54 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hello Russell,
Thanks for your message.
My comments are inline below.
Steve
----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell Reiter" <rreiter91@gmail.com> To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org>; "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <
Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 10:48 AM
Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Jul 30, 2016 1:28 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org
wrote:
<snip>
<snip>
This device looks promising to me. New Old Stock is the reason I go to Above All etc.
http://m.ebay.ca/itm/US-Robotics-56K-USB-Modem-Windows-Mac-Linux-/2723053260...
http://support.usr.com/support/5637/5637-ug/install.html
Here's a snippet from the support page.
"Linux Kernel 2.4.20 and Higher
You need a USB modem driver (CDC ACM) compiled into a Linux kernel 2.4.20 or higher or as a loadable module for your kernel. Installation of the modem under these kernels is fully automatic provided your kernel has the Plug and Play module enabled (default). You do not need to install any drivers off the USRobotics installation CD-ROM. "
Thanks for this !! Looks very promising !!
Seems that USB support for modems is being kept up-to-date in Linux, as
apetrie@aspetrie.net> the usb modem driver source code is present in linux 3.16 kernel (used by debian 8):
drivers/usb/class/cdc-acm.c drivers/usb/class/cdc-acm.h
Also, I see a web page with a Linux patch notice dated 17 November 2014
"[3.16.y-ckt,stable] Patch "USB: cdc-acm: add quirk for control-line state requests" has been added to staging queue".
Now that I think on it, didn't you mention earlier on this thread,
getting access to a mobile device (cell phone?) modem from Linux? Yes that's true. Most GSM phone devices can physically tether for file transfers, a very few cannot. A cellphone is really just an always on modem. I did an install a few years ago debian or Fedora, I can't remember which. The device relied on Windows networking to switch from block to character mode. You'd tether the device retrieve the windows connection app and bobs ur uncle. I tried it once at a friend's place In my case I just reinstalled with the device tethered and linux set up the serial tty. However on the next boot the device was stuck in block mode. There is usbmodeswitch to handle that switching tho. UDEV handles /dev hotplugging. So a simple rule handles the switch from block to character mode. There is a serial string which the device must send to identify itself. Pop that in a UDEV rule and you were set to go.
Using Google, I found lots of documentation on getting USB modems to work
on Linux (including the PPP stuff for the dial-up Internet link).
So I will try a USRobotics USR5637 56K V.92 USB modem.
<snip>
<snip> --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Russell Sent from mobile.
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Russell Sent from mobile.
On 08/01/2016 12:49 PM, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
Now that I think on it, didn't you mention earlier on this thread, getting access to a mobile device (cell phone?) modem from Linux?
Yes that's true. Most GSM phone devices can physically tether for file transfers, a very few cannot. A cellphone is really just an always on modem. I did an install a few years ago debian or Fedora, I can't remember which. The device relied on Windows networking to switch from block to character mode. You'd tether the device retrieve the windows connection app and bobs ur uncle. I tried it once at a friend's place
Many of the old 2G phones could be used as a dial up modem, and used the "AT" commands to control the call, just as with a regular dial up telephone modem. Smart phones support tethering via either USB or WiFi. I have my Nexus 5 configured as a WiFi access point and, when it's enabled, my computer can connect to it, as it would any other WiFi access point.
On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 10:54:24AM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
Thanks for this !! Looks very promising !!
Seems that USB support for modems is being kept up-to-date in Linux, as the usb modem driver source code is present in linux 3.16 kernel (used by debian 8):
drivers/usb/class/cdc-acm.c drivers/usb/class/cdc-acm.h
Also, I see a web page with a Linux patch notice dated 17 November 2014 "[3.16.y-ckt,stable] Patch "USB: cdc-acm: add quirk for control-line state requests" has been added to staging queue".
Now that I think on it, didn't you mention earlier on this thread, getting access to a mobile device (cell phone?) modem from Linux?
Using Google, I found lots of documentation on getting USB modems to work on Linux (including the PPP stuff for the dial-up Internet link).
So I will try a USRobotics USR5637 56K V.92 USB modem.
That should work as far as I can tell. I still think getting dialup working with linux is a waste of time and money if you plan to go to DSL soon anyhow. -- Len Sorensen
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 01:27:55AM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
So for me, HylaFAX is a cumbersome last-resort workaround, if I can't find any easier way to get a dial-up modem working under Linux.
Hylafax won't make a modem that doesn't have linux drivers work with linux. The USR5638 does not have linux drivers. It won't work with linux. -- Len Sorensen
On Tue 26 Jul 2016 09:41 -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
Perhaps for a modest price? http://www.linuxant.com/drivers/
I took a quick look at the site.
Looks like an interesting possibility.
http://linmodems.technion.ac.il/ http://linmodems.tech/ There's another couple of resources. I think the problem is with these old devices nobody has bothered to maintain drivers for modern kernels, So the newest kernel you will be able to use is 2.6.* unless you are willing bring the drivers up to date yourself (or hire someone to do it)
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 10:05:18PM -0400, Loui Chang wrote:
Perhaps for a modest price? http://www.linuxant.com/drivers/
I don't think that supports the USR5638. I remember the modems those drivers support. Multitech has a PCIe modem that should work with linux, but it is over $200. Of course an external real serial modem is often more likely to work with linux. An external USB modem might work. -- Len Sorensen
Hello Lennart, Thanks for your response. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lennart Sorensen via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> To: "Loui Chang" <louipc.ist@gmail.com> Cc: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 10:35 AM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 10:05:18PM -0400, Loui Chang wrote:
Perhaps for a modest price? http://www.linuxant.com/drivers/
I don't think that supports the USR5638.
I remember the modems those drivers support.
Multitech has a PCIe modem that should work with linux, but it is over $200.
Too expensive for me.
Of course an external real serial modem is often more likely to work with linux. An external USB modem might work.
Right -- the good old RS-232 serial port. A fallback solution if I can't find a PCIe modem that works.
-- Len Sorensen --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Hello Lennart, Thanks for your response. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lennart Sorensen" <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> To: "o1bigtenor" <o1bigtenor@gmail.com>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Cc: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 4:07 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 11:15:36AM -0500, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk
Dialup Modem US Robotics USR5638 56K* V.92, internal dial-up faxmodem card, (PCIe) PCI Express x1;
Not sure how well this will work in a *nix system - - - would need to verify that drivers are available!!!
They are not, and most likely never will be.
It's true that dial-up modem support in Linux is very weak. Please see my detailed response to Giles Orr.
-- Len Sorensen
Hello Dee, Thanks for your response. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "o1bigtenor" <o1bigtenor@gmail.com> To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 12:15 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 9:47 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Warm Greetings To GTALUG, BACKGROUND -- BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC
I'm working to replace an old Dell Windows XP SP3 PC with a new PC, booting Debian Linux 8 as the primary OS, with Win 7 set up to run under QEMU / KVM vbirtualization under Debian. A multi-boot setup will allow booting Windows 7 (OEM) on bare metal, if required for occasional use. I definitely am NOT going to use MS Windows as the primary OS in my new desktop PC !!
I have almost no Linux / Unix experience. Some years ago doing application programming on IBM AIX / Korn shell and now for personal and business uses, getting into Debian Linux (and DragonFlyBSD) on cloud-hosted QEMU / KVM virtualization servers. However I do have a strong IT background. (I'm a "retired" software engineer).
I haven't run the QEMU/KVM VM setup you are talking about but I have run Oracle's VirtualBox VM setup. Not an expert by any stretch but have found some holes and some good things in VirtualBox (called VBox sometimes). Would suggest that you look into it for an idea. I have a Win7 iteration with it having no network connection or one might call it in an electronic jail.
Interesting about VirtualBox -- I like the idea of no network connection for the virtualized Win7 Might help block Microsoft from trying to do a sneaky "upgrade" of the Win 7 to Win 10. This outrageous Microsoft arrogance (sneaky "upgrades") is another reason why I am looking with great relief, to moving to the world of Linux. snip
----------------- ----------------- CPU Intel 4-Core i5-4460 3.2GHz Processor, 64-bit, 6 MB cache, max 32 GB RAM, HD graphics; CPU Cooler Noctua NH-U12S 55.0 CFM CPU Cooler, height w/fan 158mm, clears RAM & PCIe, PWM control; Motherboard ASRock Z97 EXTREME6 ATX LGA1150 Mainboard, PCIe: 2x 3.0x16, 1x 2.0x16, 2x 2.0x1, 1x mini, Ultra M.2 Gen3 8Gb/s x4 (uses 4x PCIe 3.0 CPU socket lanes), extra large heat sinks; Memory Crucial Ballistix Tactical Tracer 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3-1600 RAM, 1.35 volt, timings 8-8-8-24;
would suggest going up a notch to 12 or better 16 GB of RAM - - - with running VMs RAM is a useful commodity!!
Good advice. Will likely take it.
----------------- Case Fractal Design Define R5 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case, 3-speed fan control (max 3 fans), bays: fan 9, drive: 2x5.25", 8x3.5", 2xSSD, CPU cooler height max 180mm, 2 dust filters; Power Supply EVGA SuperNOVA P2 850W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply; ----------------- Solid State Drive Samsung SM951 128GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive, AHCI PCIe Gen3 8Gb/s x4, 256 MB cache, P/N MZHPV128HDGM; Hard Drive Western Digital Caviar Blue Internal Hard Drive 750GB 3.5" 7200RPM 6Gb/s SATA 64MB cache;
Would suggest going larger on this as it would only be a few dollars to go to 1 TB and not that much more to go to 2 TB. The sweet spot for hard drives IIRC is right around 3 TB (minimum cost per unit storage per dollar)
Good advice and I will likely take it.
Optical Drive LG WH16NS40 Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Writer, SATA, 2/3/4 layers (128GB), 4MB data buffer; ----------------- Video Monitor LG 22MB35DM-I 21.5" Monitor Full HD 1080p 1920x1080 IPS LED Back-lit, DVI-D, D-Sub, contrast ratios: (static 1,000:1), (dynamic 5M:1), reader mode, flicker-safe;
Would suggest running 2 of these - - - you'd find yourself wondering how you had done without before! (I'm running 4 (24") and wish I had the money to add the 5th!)
I envy you for your two big video monitors :) Maybe if I win the lottery ...
Keyboard Dell SK-8110 PS/2 Keyboard, PS/2 Interface, Black, DP/N 07N242, 104 keys, cable with purple 6 pin mini-DIN male (PS/2 STYLE) connector;
Have you ever considered an ergonomic keyboard? Love mine and it makes typing fast much easier on the hands!!
I admit the Dell keyboard is absolutely barebones. I like it for the PS/2 interface, which my Linux research indicates is the most robust choice for down-and-dirty boot-time issues. However, I will take your advice and reconsider. snip
Dialup Modem US Robotics USR5638 56K* V.92, internal dial-up faxmodem card, (PCIe) PCI Express x1;
Not sure how well this will work in a *nix system - - - would need to verify that drivers are available!!!
Point well taken. Please see my detailed response to Giles Orr. snip
For simplicity, I have omitted mention of: a SCSI controller, and a SCSI tape drive, and speakers. All of which I will acquire later, after the base PC is working.
Why would you want the tape drive - - - use the blueray - - - you have 125 GB of room - - - even the 25 GB discs are almost cheap - - - that's lots of work product space!
I realize I can use the BluRay drive for backup. And will do so at first. Whenever I mention tape drives to my friends, they roll their eyes and lecture me on how magnetic tape for backup is obsolete. My early IT days were spent on IBM mainframes working for big companies (e.g. insurance). These big players still use magnetic tape for very good reasons. I believe that optical disks are more prone to degradation than is mag tape media. And a mag tape is reuseable many many times. And I don't like the idea of adding to the world's plastic waste load. Currently on my existing Dell WinXP PC, I use a Seagate SCSI DAT drive and an Adaptec SCSI card. A DAT (DDS-4) cartridge holds 12 GB uncompressed. These tape cartridges are very inexpensive. I have configured the WinXP disk drive with 8 partitions (C: 15 GB; D: ... J: 10 GB; Total: 85 GB). C: has about 11 GB used. Total freespace on the drive is about 24.5 GB. So a full backup is about 60 GB. For simplicity, each disk partition full backup goes on a separate tape. My backup scheme has me taking two full backups twice a year (each time we do our spring & fall clock change). Each full backup takes 8 tapes, one tape for each disk partition.. One full backup stays on-site, the other full backup goes off-stte. These tapes get reused. But the rule is that I always have one previous full backup intact while the next full backup is being written. I always have one complete backup intact ALL THE TIME (plus the last five incremental backups). So, even while running the next full backup, there is always an intact full backup available.Call me paranoid if you like. Between the twice-yearly full backups, I run a daily incremental backup that cycles through five (5) incremental backup tapes. The latest incremental tape goes off-site. Call mde paranoid if you like. My philosophy: If a PC does not have two compete disk backups, one on-site and one off-site, at all times, that PC does not have a real backup. SCSI: You are correct that SCSI is (like dial-up) a dying technology. But I like SCSI for it's rock-solid reliability as a tape backup interface. The problem with tape backup for PCs is that no manufacturer makes DAT drives anymore. And even VGA tape drives (like I would like to use on the new Linux PC) are not manufactured amy more. Only LTO tape drives are available and LTO drives and tapes are too expensive for me. And the large size of LTO cartridges makes than inconvenient for off-site storage in a small box.. I will rework my backup cost estimate (including media cost) before I decide on tape versus BluRay.
Dee
I'll give opposite advice from the rest. Stay with Windows. - Windows comes free with all retail computers, fully configured. If you're used to XP, then you'll have short (if at all) learning curve to 10. - Components you list below, all come with Windows driver. - Windows has virtualizations -- Hyper-V and VirtualBox. So, you can run Linux if you like. - MS-Windows and MS-Office are standard that Linux fanboys are trying to copy. Open/Libre Office's reason for existence is to promote MS-Office workflow, and prepare people for eventual migration to MS-Office. By going with Windows, you're already there. As for hardware, - I would advice against ASrock because of my previous experience with them. - If you already have SCSI, ok. But, buying a new SCSI? - Intel i5 comes with heatsink and fan. Why buy third-party? - For VM, you need 16GB+ ram. Ideally, 8GB should be enough (4GB for host, 4GB for guest), but practice never turns out that way. -- William On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 10:47:58AM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
Warm Greetings To GTALUG,
Please forgive the long email. -- have to provide some background.
BACKGROUND -- BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC
I'm working to replace an old Dell Windows XP SP3 PC with a new PC, booting Debian Linux 8 as the primary OS, with Win 7 set up to run under QEMU / KVM vbirtualization under Debian. A multi-boot setup will allow booting Windows 7 (OEM) on bare metal, if required for occasional use. I definitely am NOT going to use MS Windows as the primary OS in my new desktop PC !!
I have almost no Linux / Unix experience. Some years ago doing application programming on IBM AIX / Korn shell and now for personal and business uses, getting into Debian Linux (and DragonFlyBSD) on cloud-hosted QEMU / KVM virtualization servers. However I do have a strong IT background. (I'm a "retired" software engineer).
On 7 January 2016 I sent an inquiry email to hi@gtalug.org and Myles Braithwaite responded instantly with helpfull suggestions for which I was very grateful. Myles also encouraged to join the talk@gtalug.org mailing list and so now here I am.
I'm looking for advice from GTALUG members on two issues:
1. Comments on my proposed PC configuration. I have already researched components and developed a detailed hardware configuration for the new PC. Please see below. This configuration is not yet published on ca.partpicker.com.
2. Advice on how to get the PC built from components, that I will purchase retail and supply to the builder. Here, one option I propose is for a "creative" solution from GTALUG (see point 3, next section).
* * * * * *
HOW TO BUILD THE NEW DEBIAN 8 PC ?
It seems to me that there are three approaches I could take, to get this new PC built:
1. BUILD IT MYSELF. I can handle purchasing all the components. However, although I am comfortable messing around inside the case of a computer, I've never build one from components. I would prefer to have the PC assembled by more experienced hands that have the skills and use of the right tools. So building myself is a last resort.
2. USE A COMMERCIAL PC SYSTEM BUILDER. Any suggestions from mailing list participants, on commercial PC builders would be gratefully received. However, I do not want to have to deal with import hassles, so the builder must be operating in Canada.(preferably in the GTA)
Problem: It seems it will be difficult to interest commercial PC bulders in Canada to supply a competitively-priced PC configured with Linux. So if I use a commercial builder, the plan would be to get the PC built and delivered with with Windows 7 only installed, but have a multi-boot setup. After I get the PC I will install Debian 8 Linux as the primary host operating system, and then install Win 7 to run under QEMU / KVM virtualization under Debian.
3. *** CREATIVE IDEA FOR GTALUG *** Perhaps there is a member (or members) of GTALUG who would be able to build the PC from comnponents I supply. Naturally I would be happy to pay a fee for this service Or (and this would be my preference) perhaps GTALUG would be interested in taking on the buuild project as a club project. I expect I would be much more happy to pay money to GTALUG for helping with the build, and to get the pleasure of working with GTALUG, than I would be paying and dealing with a commercial builder. Since I live in Oakville in a small apartment, it would make more sense for the build to happen in Toronto.
From my casual research, there are many Win XP "orphans" like me out there. Not only older-type people stuck on Win XP and wondering what to do before their old PC dies. But also there are plenty of small businesses still running XP (in fact there are probably more small business XP users left, than consumer XP users).
You could consider me in a sense, a "poster senior" for a class of people, among whom some could possibly go the Linux route as they migrate away from Win XP. If only these poster seniors (or small business Win XP "orphans") had a helping hand from e.g. GTALUG. For example, run a kind of GTALUG "clinic" that Win XP "orphans" could come to (for a fee) and there work with GTALUG members to get their Linux PC built. And later get their data (e.g. emails) converted over to e.g. Thunderbird.
Just a thought, for a way that GTALUG could get more involved with the wider community. And perhaps also pull in some club revenue to support GTALUG initiatives. Perhsps this is an idea the GTALUG Board could consider. I am happy to discuss the idea of being the "guinea pig" for such a project.
* * * * * *
PROPOSED PC CONFIGURATION
Thsi is decidedly NOT a gamer's PC. It is intended to be an ultra-reliable, powerful, fast professional / small business workstation . There is no overclocking. There are no add-in graphics cards. It uses established CPU technology now being price-discounted because of the introduction of new CPU technology.
----------------- ----------------- CPU Intel 4-Core i5-4460 3.2GHz Processor, 64-bit, 6 MB cache, max 32 GB RAM, HD graphics; CPU Cooler Noctua NH-U12S 55.0 CFM CPU Cooler, height w/fan 158mm, clears RAM & PCIe, PWM control; Motherboard ASRock Z97 EXTREME6 ATX LGA1150 Mainboard, PCIe: 2x 3.0x16, 1x 2.0x16, 2x 2.0x1, 1x mini, Ultra M.2 Gen3 8Gb/s x4 (uses 4x PCIe 3.0 CPU socket lanes), extra large heat sinks; Memory Crucial Ballistix Tactical Tracer 8GB (2x4GB) DDR3-1600 RAM, 1.35 volt, timings 8-8-8-24; ----------------- Case Fractal Design Define R5 (Black) ATX Mid Tower Case, 3-speed fan control (max 3 fans), bays: fan 9, drive: 2x5.25", 8x3.5", 2xSSD, CPU cooler height max 180mm, 2 dust filters; Power Supply EVGA SuperNOVA P2 850W 80+ Platinum Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply; ----------------- Solid State Drive Samsung SM951 128GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive, AHCI PCIe Gen3 8Gb/s x4, 256 MB cache, P/N MZHPV128HDGM; Hard Drive Western Digital Caviar Blue Internal Hard Drive 750GB 3.5" 7200RPM 6Gb/s SATA 64MB cache; Optical Drive LG WH16NS40 Blu-Ray/DVD/CD Writer, SATA, 2/3/4 layers (128GB), 4MB data buffer; ----------------- Video Monitor LG 22MB35DM-I 21.5" Monitor Full HD 1080p 1920x1080 IPS LED Back-lit, DVI-D, D-Sub, contrast ratios: (static 1,000:1), (dynamic 5M:1), reader mode, flicker-safe; Keyboard Dell SK-8110 PS/2 Keyboard, PS/2 Interface, Black, DP/N 07N242, 104 keys, cable with purple 6 pin mini-DIN male (PS/2 STYLE) connector; Mouse Logitech SBF-96 PS/2 Wired Optical Mouse, 3 Buttons, wheel, cable with green 6 pin mini-DIN male (PS/2 STYLE) connector; ----------------- Dialup Modem US Robotics USR5638 56K* V.92, internal dial-up faxmodem card, (PCIe) PCI Express x1; ----------------- ----------------- Multi-Boot Main Host OS O/S Debian 8 LXDE Linux -- x86_64 (QEMU / KVM host o/s to Win7 x86_64 guest o/s); ISO on DVD (standard Debian installation ISO **NOT LIVE installation ISO**); Guest OS Microsoft Windows 7 Professional Full, 32/64-bit, from ISO on DVD (guest o/s of Deb8); Emergency OS Microsoft Windows 7 Professional Full, 32/64-bit, ISO on DVD (emergency multi-boot); ----------------- ----------------- Cables @@@??? Power Bar @@@??? ----------------- -----------------
The same configuratiton is attached as a PDF <ca.pcpartpicker.com -- deb8_win7_dual-boot_PC_business_24_7_duty - summary_bare - Steve_Petrie - 20160313.pdf>.
For simplicity, I have omitted mention of: a SCSI controller, and a SCSI tape drive, and speakers. All of which I will acquire later, after the base PC is working.
* * * * * *
Many thanks to list members for taking the time to consider my email.
Comments, questions welcome: 1. On the proposed PC configuration, 2. On the idea of GTALUG helping with the build project.
Best Regards,
Steve
* * *
Steve Petrie, P.Eng.
ITS-ETO Consortium Oakville, Ontario, Canada (905) 847-3253 apetrie@aspetrie.net
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Jul 27, 2016 11:20 PM, "William Park via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I'll give opposite advice from the rest. Stay with Windows. - Windows comes free with all retail computers, fully configured.
The only reason this is the case is that Foss became a threat to the profit model, otherwise it would be business as usual at Microsoft, which is to squeeze every cent they can out of consumers.
If you're used to XP, then you'll have short (if at all) learning curve to 10. - Components you list below, all come with Windows driver. - Windows has virtualizations -- Hyper-V and VirtualBox. So, you can run Linux if you like. - MS-Windows and MS-Office are standard that Linux fanboys are trying to copy. Open/Libre Office's
I think you are confusing comic book fanboy culture with foss culture here. MS Office is still $300 to buy outright. Or MS's preferred method, you can subscribe. reason for existence is to
promote MS-Office workflow, and prepare people for eventual migration to MS-Office. By going
Many places, municipalities and organizations, government, military and others have migrated the other way. In part this is the reason the price of MS Office has dropped as far as it has. Russell Sent from mobile.
On 07/28/2016 08:15 AM, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
On Jul 27, 2016 11:20 PM, "William Park via talk" <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:
I'll give opposite advice from the rest. Stay with Windows. - Windows comes free with all retail computers, fully configured.
Windows does not come free. The cost of Windows is built into the price. At one time if you tried to sell a computer without Windows pre-installed you would be forbidden from getting Windows to pre-install on other computers. Nothing is free. But my take is that its an easy sell to tell someone to get a windows computer and once they do I don't have to support them because I know nothing about windows and just can't help. If I suggest a linux computer I am suddenly responsible for all the ills of the internet and any piece of software that gets installed. When Windows problems crop up... "I guess you just have to buy a new computer and upgrade to the latest version of windows."
The only reason this is the case is that Foss became a threat to the profit model, otherwise it would be business as usual at Microsoft, which is to squeeze every cent they can out of consumers.
If you're used to XP, then you'll have short (if at all) learning curve to 10. - Components you list below, all come with Windows driver.
That is true that windows has better driver support. Partly because of the dominance of the product but partly because of aggressive business tactics.
- Windows has virtualizations -- Hyper-V and VirtualBox. So,
you can
run Linux if you like.
Linux has virtualization and you run windows with Xen(where Hyper-V comes from), VirtualBox, VMWare, KVM, ... Linux also has Wine so you can run some windows apps natively.
- MS-Windows and MS-Office are standard that Linux fanboys are trying to copy. Open/Libre Office's
That is hardly a fair comparison. OpenOffice has been around for quite a while. First as StarWriter around 1985 where word started around 1983. Microsoft chooses to keep Word/Office as a Windows package with just enough support for Apple to keep them out of court. One could claim that Word/Office are just fanboy copies of WordPerfect which showed up in 1980 and was a far superior product till well into the 1990's [snip] -- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 09:17:28 -0400 Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Jul 27, 2016 11:20 PM, "William Park via talk" <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:
I'll give opposite advice from the rest. Stay with Windows. - Windows comes free with all retail computers, fully configured. Windows does not come free. The cost of Windows is built into the price. At one time if you tried to sell a computer without Windows
On 07/28/2016 08:15 AM, Russell Reiter via talk wrote: pre-installed you would be forbidden from getting Windows to pre-install on other computers.
Nothing is free.
so very true (unless you are a swimsuit model in a singles bar...)
But my take is that its an easy sell to tell someone to get a windows computer and once they do I don't have to support them because I know nothing about windows and just can't help. If I suggest a linux computer I am suddenly responsible for all the ills of the internet and any piece of software that gets installed. When Windows problems crop up... "I guess you just have to buy a new computer and upgrade to the latest version of windows."
roflmao - this is so exactly what I do! :)
The only reason this is the case is that Foss became a threat to the profit model, otherwise it would be business as usual at Microsoft, which is to squeeze every cent they can out of consumers.
If you're used to XP, then you'll have short (if at all) learning curve to 10. - Components you list below, all come with Windows driver.
That is true that windows has better driver support. Partly because of the dominance of the product but partly because of aggressive business tactics.
- Windows has virtualizations -- Hyper-V and VirtualBox. So,
you can
run Linux if you like.
Linux has virtualization and you run windows with Xen(where Hyper-V comes from), VirtualBox, VMWare, KVM, ... Linux also has Wine so you can run some windows apps natively.
- MS-Windows and MS-Office are standard that Linux fanboys are trying to copy. Open/Libre Office's
That is hardly a fair comparison. OpenOffice has been around for quite a while. First as StarWriter around 1985 where word started around 1983. Microsoft chooses to keep Word/Office as a Windows package with just enough support for Apple to keep them out of court.
One could claim that Word/Office are just fanboy copies of WordPerfect which showed up in 1980 and was a far superior product till well into the 1990's
WordPerfect was so the best, (so was playing with lantastic and arcnet :) ), ooh, and lotus-123 - before they broke it, and patrick's first Slack, o joy, now that was something /*wipes misty tear from left eye*/
[snip]
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 Dear Mr. Petrie, Good to see your inquiry on the list... On 25/07/16 10:47 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
... *BACKGROUND -- BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC*
... replace Dell XP SP3 PC with a new PC, booting Debian Linux 8, with Win 7 set up to run under QEMU / KVM virtualization under Debian... ... *HOW TO BUILD THE NEW DEBIAN 8 PC ?* ... *1. BUILD IT MYSELF.* ... last resort.
*2. COMMERCIAL PC BUILDER.* ... in Canada.(preferably GTA)
Problem: ... commercial PC bulders to [be] competitive
*3. *** CREATIVE IDEA: GTALUG **** ... member(s) build from components ... happy to pay
...
... omitted a SCSI controller and tape drive, and speakers I will acquire later, after the base PC is working...
Many thanks to list members for taking the time to consider my email. Comments, questions welcome: *1.* On the proposed PC configuration, *2.* On the idea of GTALUG helping with the build project. ... Steve Petrie, P.Eng. ITS-ETO Consortium Oakville, Ontario, Canada (905) 847-3253 apetrie@aspetrie.net <mailto:apetrie@aspetrie.net>
I can understand not necessarily wanting to work on this yourself. I do not receive any consideration at all from the Canadian companies (from the Falls) on my list, but I absolutely trust them to build the very best and stand by their work... Please see my recommendations at my blog... https://youcanlinux.wordpress.com/company-recommendations/ It comes down to rock-solid reliability and the highest-quality components. I have had the shop work on my computer years after purchase. The customers see the value in this devotion to quality, attention-to-detail, and total pride in their work. Sincerely, Daniel Villarreal http://www.youcanlinux.org youcanlinux at gmail.com PGP key 2F6E 0DC3 85E2 5EC0 DA03 3F5B F251 8938 A83E 7B49 https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xF2518938A83E7B49 P.S. If you still want to build it yourself or have GTALUG members build a computer, you might consider sourcing the parts from this company and even have them assemble the motherboard (proc, fan, RAM, any ancillary cooling options you might want) and test so that you have a reliable base system. -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 iQEzBAEBCAAdBQJXm/+8Fhx5b3VjYW5saW51eEBnbWFpbC5jb20ACgkQ8lGJOKg+ e0nYKAf9HxwgwJUMDAlfgfW/SSKQlxFCucVfZalwPtavdFotc8mZR+lrQzlug2jO lgSs4bqkrNj+72vCpDMKDd7QhApjBrvWGmdiI5EfgbZQyK77DLVFfw8ZoyrTxB1U 3CxHeauv1vRi+mD4FcpCfu3NmEDqSJmJQeKvip5dBZwQT2KgK8KDWrVqQsNHEiRQ 9xhmZ4X8QcvX0lOAX5jALpDgu4g5mAuDlaERbtzp4FJzeSZ+2YGCx4bWFwrCmZaa HVORprg2M5tKPMY/ccBzKCXk+5GR6sz/UVCLZ6cTno9Xk0YIEr9Bdm3x16SswoLB U3Ch2NYxPC9spw+XanBzuv8ibbfPDw== =5CfE -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hello Daniel, Thanks for your message. Please see my comments inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Villarreal" <youcanlinux@gmail.com> To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Friday, July 29, 2016 9:15 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256
Dear Mr. Petrie,
Good to see your inquiry on the list...
<snip>
I can understand not necessarily wanting to work on this yourself. I do not receive any consideration at all from the Canadian companies (from the Falls) on my list, but I absolutely trust them to build the very best and stand by their work... Please see my recommendations at my blog... https://youcanlinux.wordpress.com/company-recommendations/
It comes down to rock-solid reliability and the highest-quality components. I have had the shop work on my computer years after purchase. The customers see the value in this devotion to quality, attention-to-detail, and total pride in their work.
Thanks for that !! I'll check out your recommendations.
Sincerely, Daniel Villarreal http://www.youcanlinux.org youcanlinux at gmail.com PGP key 2F6E 0DC3 85E2 5EC0 DA03 3F5B F251 8938 A83E 7B49 https://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0xF2518938A83E7B49
P.S. If you still want to build it yourself or have GTALUG members build a computer, you might consider sourcing the parts from this company and even have them assemble the motherboard (proc, fan, RAM, any ancillary cooling options you might want) and test so that you have a reliable base system.
Makes sense. I do have particular dreads of e.g. wrecking the pins on the CPU chip. Or e.g. getting into a kindergarten art-comedy with heat sink paste.
On Mon 25 Jul 2016 10:47 -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
I'm working to replace an old Dell Windows XP SP3 PC with a new PC, booting Debian Linux 8 as the primary OS, with Win 7 set up to run under QEMU / KVM vbirtualization under Debian. A multi-boot setup will allow booting Windows 7 (OEM) on bare metal, if required for occasional use. I definitely am NOT going to use MS Windows as the primary OS in my new desktop PC !!
I have almost no Linux / Unix experience.
After reading this thread for awhile I feel like I need to be some kind of voice of reason here. I think it would be unwise to replace your main PC by struggling with a new OS, struggling with hardware/build, etc. My advice: - Get yourself an inexpensive off the shelf Windows 10 computer. Windows 10 isn't really the nightmare that Win 8 was in terms of UI. You should do just fine with it. - Use free and open source software on Windows as much as you can. - Here you can figure out how to export your emails into a free/universal format - If you still feel like trying Linux, then make yourself some Live USB flash drives to play around with. - etc...
Hello Loui, Thanks for your message. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loui Chang" <louipc.ist@gmail.com> To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 2:24 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Mon 25 Jul 2016 10:47 -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
<snip>
I have almost no Linux / Unix experience.
After reading this thread for awhile I feel like I need to be some kind of voice of reason here. I think it would be unwise to replace your main PC by struggling with a new OS, struggling with hardware/build, etc.
My advice: - Get yourself an inexpensive off the shelf Windows 10 computer. Windows 10 isn't really the nightmare that Win 8 was in terms of UI. You should do just fine with it. - Use free and open source software on Windows as much as you can. - Here you can figure out how to export your emails into a free/universal format - If you still feel like trying Linux, then make yourself some Live USB flash drives to play around with. - etc...
It would certainly be a lot less work for me, simply to get an off-the-shelf Windows 10 PC, to replace the existing Windows XP PC. But there would still be a lot of work, considering that there is no transparent upgrade from Windows XP to Windows 10. I do not want to continue to use a Microsoft OS as my primary OS. My concession to Microsoft, is to purchase an OEM-license Windows 7 for installation on the new Linux PC, as a fall-back environment for Windows apps (from the existing Win XP PC or not). The main reasons I want to get away from Microsoft: 1. From what I understand, Microsoft has been known to sneakily automatically "update" a PC to Windows 10 from an earlier version of Windows. Is this true? Regardless, I already loathe Microsoft enough that I have no desire to continue using a MS OS. 2, I have read that Windows 10 gathers usage statistics and delivers them to Microsoft. No thanks !! 3. Linux, being open source, is known to be more secure than a Microsoft OS. Plus, considering that so few desktops run Linux, as compared to Windows, this makes Linux a much less "interesting" target for malware practitioners. * * * * * * Although I have little hands-on Linux experience, I am a "retired" software engineer, with over 30 years independent contract programming experience. I have already confirmed that the critical apps I use on Win XP, have suitable versions / replacements on Linux. Years ago, I did some extensive progamming work on a large insurance company's IBM AIX (flavour of Unix), using the Korn shell. Hooked up that company, to an online securities trading service network, so 3rd. party stockbrokers can sell to their clients, the insurance co's financial products (GICs, annuities). I have plenty of command line experience on Win XP: cmd.exe, MySQL client, PostgreSQL client. Also, I am already doing some work on debian Linux and DragonFlyBSD, on cloud-hosted KVM VMs. So I'm not at all afraid of Linux. In fact I look forward to the stimulating challenge of learning Linux. Finally, I look forward to enjoying a tremendous sense of moral satisfaction, from having refused to bend the knee to the Microsoft monopoly. This will be the last time I pay money to MS (Windows 7 on the new Linux PC, will not be the primary OS, the debian 8 will be the primary OS).
participants (13)
-
ac -
Alvin Starr -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Daniel Villarreal -
Giles Orr -
Howard Gibson -
James Knott -
Lennart Sorensen -
Loui Chang -
o1bigtenor -
Russell Reiter -
Steve Petrie, P.Eng. -
William Park