installing linux while retaining Windows 10
When I buy a PC, it almost always comes with Win 10 these days and I am not brave enough to throw it away. So I install Linux beside Windows. For this I need to shrink the Windows partition. Windows is unwilling to shrink its NTFS partition to less than half its original size. That's because it has placed the Master File Table in the middle of the partition and considers it unmovable. There are third party tools that can do this but I don't want to learn about them or trust them. So use Linux to resize the partition to give Windows less than half of the disk. There are a couple of tricks that you need to know. Windows 10, by default, uses something called Fast Startup. That means that when you ask it to shut down, it only hibernates. I think that that means that if you change its partition (or any of several other things) while it is shut down, Bad Things might happen. I think that it is best turn off Fast Startup before shutting down Win 10. Settings: System: Power and Sleep: Additional Power Settings: Choose what the power buttons do: Change settings that are currently unavailable: Under Shutdown Settings, untick: Turn on fast startup (recommended) (I don't think that Microsoft wants you to find this.) Shutdown Windows 10. Boot your favourite Live linux (need not be what you install). Run gparted to resize the NTFS partition. SUPERSTITIOUS MODE ON /* this seems to be needed */ Immediately shut down Linux. Reboot Windows (it will repair some damage caused by ntfsresize). Shut down Windows. SUPERSTITIOUS MODE OFF Install Linux however you wish to. You can turn on Windows' fast startup. But only if Linux and Windows share no filesystems. ================ Alternative solution (unreliable report of Giles' approach): Before EVER booting Wind 10, install Linux. Win 10 first-boot process won't eat a Linux installation.
Suggestion: be brave! If you need windows, reinstall it as a virtual machine. I've had no problem doing that and using the license key on the bottom of my laptop to activate it. cheers, darryl On 16-01-04 04:46 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
When I buy a PC, it almost always comes with Win 10 these days and I am not brave enough to throw it away. So I install Linux beside Windows. For this I need to shrink the Windows partition.
Windows is unwilling to shrink its NTFS partition to less than half its original size. That's because it has placed the Master File Table in the middle of the partition and considers it unmovable. There are third party tools that can do this but I don't want to learn about them or trust them.
So use Linux to resize the partition to give Windows less than half of the disk. There are a couple of tricks that you need to know.
Windows 10, by default, uses something called Fast Startup. That means that when you ask it to shut down, it only hibernates. I think that that means that if you change its partition (or any of several other things) while it is shut down, Bad Things might happen. I think that it is best turn off Fast Startup before shutting down Win 10. Settings: System: Power and Sleep: Additional Power Settings: Choose what the power buttons do: Change settings that are currently unavailable: Under Shutdown Settings, untick: Turn on fast startup (recommended) (I don't think that Microsoft wants you to find this.)
Shutdown Windows 10. Boot your favourite Live linux (need not be what you install). Run gparted to resize the NTFS partition.
SUPERSTITIOUS MODE ON /* this seems to be needed */ Immediately shut down Linux. Reboot Windows (it will repair some damage caused by ntfsresize). Shut down Windows. SUPERSTITIOUS MODE OFF
Install Linux however you wish to.
You can turn on Windows' fast startup. But only if Linux and Windows share no filesystems.
================
Alternative solution (unreliable report of Giles' approach):
Before EVER booting Wind 10, install Linux. Win 10 first-boot process won't eat a Linux installation. --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org http://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 04/01/16 04:50 PM, Darryl Moore wrote:
Suggestion: be brave!
If you need windows, reinstall it as a virtual machine. I've had no problem doing that and using the license key on the bottom of my laptop to activate it.
cheers, darryl
I've tried installing Win7 from original DVDs into a VirtualBox VM -- now I just get a message that I'm a criminal ("This copy of Windows is not genuine"), with frequent popup reminders. My mileage varied, your mileage may vary too. - --Bob.
On 16-01-04 04:46 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
When I buy a PC, it almost always comes with Win 10 these days and I am not brave enough to throw it away. So I install Linux beside Windows. For this I need to shrink the Windows partition.
Windows is unwilling to shrink its NTFS partition to less than half its original size. That's because it has placed the Master File Table in the middle of the partition and considers it unmovable. There are third party tools that can do this but I don't want to learn about them or trust them.
So use Linux to resize the partition to give Windows less than half of the disk. There are a couple of tricks that you need to know.
Windows 10, by default, uses something called Fast Startup. That means that when you ask it to shut down, it only hibernates. I think that that means that if you change its partition (or any of several other things) while it is shut down, Bad Things might happen. I think that it is best turn off Fast Startup before shutting down Win 10. Settings: System: Power and Sleep: Additional Power Settings: Choose what the power buttons do: Change settings that are currently unavailable: Under Shutdown Settings, untick: Turn on fast startup (recommended) (I don't think that Microsoft wants you to find this.)
Shutdown Windows 10. Boot your favourite Live linux (need not be what you install). Run gparted to resize the NTFS partition.
SUPERSTITIOUS MODE ON /* this seems to be needed */ Immediately shut down Linux. Reboot Windows (it will repair some damage caused by ntfsresize). Shut down Windows. SUPERSTITIOUS MODE OFF
Install Linux however you wish to.
You can turn on Windows' fast startup. But only if Linux and Windows share no filesystems.
================
Alternative solution (unreliable report of Giles' approach):
Before EVER booting Wind 10, install Linux. Win 10 first-boot process won't eat a Linux installation. --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org http://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org http://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2.0.20 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability
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On 16-01-04 05:20 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote:
I've tried installing Win7 from original DVDs into a VirtualBox VM -- now I just get a message that I'm a criminal ("This copy of Windows is not genuine"), with frequent popup reminders. My mileage varied, your mileage may vary too.
- --Bob.
Interesting. Just fired up mine after a few months. All is well. Did some OS updates, and still good. I'll put it to bed now, probably for a few more months. Did you try activating it with your license key? What happens then? I had the same issue on a previous laptop, and the software required me to even call microsoft which I did, and the activation worked. cheers, darryl
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Darryl Moore wrote:
Did you try activating it with your license key?
As I recall, I installed it from orginal DVDs that came with the laptop, and used the license key packaged with them. It must have worked at one time. But like you, it lies dormant most of the time, and I don't recall when it stopped working properly. My guess is that it's an OEM version, looking for specific hardware components it can't find in the VM. But I can't be bothered buying another copy since I only fire it up every so often to see if it's still broken. - --Bob. On 04/01/16 06:05 PM, Darryl Moore wrote:
On 16-01-04 05:20 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote:
I've tried installing Win7 from original DVDs into a VirtualBox VM -- now I just get a message that I'm a criminal ("This copy of Windows is not genuine"), with frequent popup reminders. My mileage varied, your mileage may vary too.
- --Bob.
Interesting. Just fired up mine after a few months. All is well. Did some OS updates, and still good. I'll put it to bed now, probably for a few more months.
Did you try activating it with your license key? What happens then? I had the same issue on a previous laptop, and the software required me to even call microsoft which I did, and the activation worked.
cheers, darryl --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org http://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
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On 04/01/16 04:50 PM, Darryl Moore wrote:
Suggestion: be brave!
If you need windows, reinstall it as a virtual machine. I've had no problem doing that and using the license key on the bottom of my laptop to activate it.
That won't help in the event Hugh needs Windows to do BIOS updates. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay + 1 647-778-8696
On 16-01-04 05:29 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote:
On 04/01/16 04:50 PM, Darryl Moore wrote:
Suggestion: be brave!
If you need windows, reinstall it as a virtual machine. I've had no problem doing that and using the license key on the bottom of my laptop to activate it.
That won't help in the event Hugh needs Windows to do BIOS updates.
Now that is true. Caused me grief once on one machine requiring me to swap in a hard drive with windows on it, but still not the end of the world, and you can usually get through the lifetime of several laptops before needing to do a BIOS upgrade, so that doesn't seem a compelling reason to me. I'd still recommend wiping the hard drive and installing Linux fresh.
Hi Hugh: Do you have room for a second HD? My linux boots from a different HD, and the only thing modified on the Windows HD is the MBR. Been doing it that way for years, with W7, and now with W10 installed. This way you do not need to do anything to the main HD, and you can render unto Gatesware that which belongs to Gatesware. Paul King On 4 Jan 2016 at 16:46, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: Date sent: Mon, 4 Jan 2016 16:46:55 -0500 (EST) From: "D. Hugh Redelmeier" <hugh@mimosa.com> To: Toronto Linux Users Group <talk@gtalug.org> Subject: [GTALUG] installing linux while retaining Windows 10 Send reply to: "D. Hugh Redelmeier" <hugh@mimosa.com>, GTALUG Talk <talk@gtalug.org>
When I buy a PC, it almost always comes with Win 10 these days and I am not brave enough to throw it away. So I install Linux beside Windows. For this I need to shrink the Windows partition.
Windows is unwilling to shrink its NTFS partition to less than half its original size. That's because it has placed the Master File Table in the middle of the partition and considers it unmovable. There are third party tools that can do this but I don't want to learn about them or trust them.
So use Linux to resize the partition to give Windows less than half of the disk. There are a couple of tricks that you need to know.
Windows 10, by default, uses something called Fast Startup. That means that when you ask it to shut down, it only hibernates. I think that that means that if you change its partition (or any of several other things) while it is shut down, Bad Things might happen. I think that it is best turn off Fast Startup before shutting down Win 10. Settings: System: Power and Sleep: Additional Power Settings: Choose what the power buttons do: Change settings that are currently unavailable: Under Shutdown Settings, untick: Turn on fast startup (recommended) (I don't think that Microsoft wants you to find this.)
Shutdown Windows 10. Boot your favourite Live linux (need not be what you install). Run gparted to resize the NTFS partition.
SUPERSTITIOUS MODE ON /* this seems to be needed */ Immediately shut down Linux. Reboot Windows (it will repair some damage caused by ntfsresize). Shut down Windows. SUPERSTITIOUS MODE OFF
Install Linux however you wish to.
You can turn on Windows' fast startup. But only if Linux and Windows share no filesystems.
================
Alternative solution (unreliable report of Giles' approach):
Before EVER booting Wind 10, install Linux. Win 10 first-boot process won't eat a Linux installation. --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org http://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 01/04/2016 09:51 PM, Paul King wrote:
Do you have room for a second HD? My linux boots from a different HD, and the only thing modified on the Windows HD is the MBR. Been doing it that way for years, with W7, and now with W10 installed.
Hard to do on a notebook computer with room for only one drive.
On 04/01/16 10:31 PM, James Knott wrote:
On 01/04/2016 09:51 PM, Paul King wrote:
Do you have room for a second HD? My linux boots from a different HD, and the only thing modified on the Windows HD is the MBR. Been doing it that way for years, with W7, and now with W10 installed.
Hard to do on a notebook computer with room for only one drive.
Only if you need regular access to Windows. If it's infrequent (i.e. just not brave enough to wipe it in case it might one day ever be needed), you could swap drives in that rare case when it's needed for something. Or, will Windows 10 boot from an external USB drive? Hardware would be the same... I haven't used Windows since XP, so not sure if more recent control measures would freak out over that... If that's an option, you could just put the second drive in an external USB enclosure.
On Tue, Jan 05, 2016 at 11:04:00AM -0500, Blaise Alleyne wrote:
Only if you need regular access to Windows. If it's infrequent (i.e. just not brave enough to wipe it in case it might one day ever be needed), you could swap drives in that rare case when it's needed for something.
Or, will Windows 10 boot from an external USB drive? Hardware would be the same... I haven't used Windows since XP, so not sure if more recent control measures would freak out over that... If that's an option, you could just put the second drive in an external USB enclosure.
No it won't. At least not in general. I suspect the enterprise/educational 'windows to go' version are the only ones that can. So since it is a faeture of some versions, it must be an artificial limitation Microsoft chose to implement. Of course a USB booting install would need to have more generic drivers available than a fixed install, since you might be tempted to move it between computers. -- Len Sorensen
On Tue, Jan 05, 2016 at 02:18:17PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
On Tue, Jan 05, 2016 at 11:04:00AM -0500, Blaise Alleyne wrote:
Only if you need regular access to Windows. If it's infrequent (i.e. just not brave enough to wipe it in case it might one day ever be needed), you could swap drives in that rare case when it's needed for something.
Or, will Windows 10 boot from an external USB drive? Hardware would be the same... I haven't used Windows since XP, so not sure if more recent control measures would freak out over that... If that's an option, you could just put the second drive in an external USB enclosure.
No it won't. At least not in general. I suspect the enterprise/educational 'windows to go' version are the only ones that can. So since it is a faeture of some versions, it must be an artificial limitation Microsoft chose to implement. Of course a USB booting install would need to have more generic drivers available than a fixed install, since you might be tempted to move it between computers.
Long ago, I was able to install Windows10Enterprise (90 days trial) to USB stick via QEMU. I had to use VM because Windows won't install to USB disk. So, install went ok. And, it boots ok. The problem was I couldn't do Windows Update. :-) As you know, Windows Update has been moved from "Control Settings" to Windows 10 "Setting" menu. -- William
On 01/05/16 23:08, William Park wrote:
...will Windows 10 boot from an external USB drive? ... option... put the 2nd drive in an external USB enclosure.
No it won't. At least not in general. I suspect the enterprise/educational 'windows to go' version are the only ones that can. So since it is a faeture of some versions, it must be an artificial limitation Microsoft chose to implement...
There's an article on this at www dot howtogeek dot com I personally think that we're better off moving tasks to open-source software, doing things like getting this functioning... https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=20573 I'm in the process of trying this with the latest WINE software... regards, Daniel Villarreal
On 2016-01-06 08:21 AM, Daniel Villarreal wrote:
I personally think that we're better off moving tasks to open-source software, doing things like getting this functioning... https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=20573
What, getting specific old PiXMA drivers going? Forget it: even Canon barely support existing printers on Windows and OS X. Their internals are weird and proprietary. I was pleasantly surprised over the holidays to be able to join two home networks of relatives, and have their wireless printers be auto-discovered and "just work" with Linux. Epson and HP deserve some respect for this. cheers, Stewart
On 01/07/16 08:23, Stewart C. Russell wrote:
On 2016-01-06 08:21 AM, Daniel Villarreal wrote:
I personally think that we're better off moving tasks to open-source software, doing things like getting this functioning... https://appdb.winehq.org/objectManager.php?sClass=version&iId=20573
What, getting specific old PiXMA drivers going? Forget it: even Canon barely support existing printers on Windows and OS X. Their internals are weird and proprietary.
That was an example from the WINE project, I'm using something different.
I was pleasantly surprised over the holidays to be able to join two home networks of relatives, and have their wireless printers be auto-discovered and "just work" with Linux. Epson and HP deserve some respect for this.
Modern printer support in Linux is nice. I would like to be able to print directly on printable CD's and DVD's, in Linux. I suppose I could still do lightscribe, www.lightscribe.com is no longer operational, but I have the lightscribe software for Linux in my collection. I used to do printer support.
cheers, Stewart
Daniel
On Thu, Jan 07, 2016 at 08:23:06AM -0500, Stewart C. Russell wrote:
What, getting specific old PiXMA drivers going? Forget it: even Canon barely support existing printers on Windows and OS X. Their internals are weird and proprietary.
I was pleasantly surprised over the holidays to be able to join two home networks of relatives, and have their wireless printers be auto-discovered and "just work" with Linux. Epson and HP deserve some respect for this.
Windows 10 seems to auto discover the epson networked printers too these days. About time. Cups has allowed this for years. -- Len Sorensen
On Mon, Jan 04, 2016 at 10:31:17PM -0500, James Knott wrote:
On 01/04/2016 09:51 PM, Paul King wrote:
Do you have room for a second HD? My linux boots from a different HD, and the only thing modified on the Windows HD is the MBR. Been doing it that way for years, with W7, and now with W10 installed.
Hard to do on a notebook computer with room for only one drive.
You would be surprised how many disks you can fit in some notebooks. My wife's thinkpad T430 has 3 disks in it at the moment, while my W530 has 2 plus the DVD drive (which the T430 had to give up for a disk). -- Len Sorensen
On 01/05/2016 02:14 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
On Mon, Jan 04, 2016 at 10:31:17PM -0500, James Knott wrote:
On 01/04/2016 09:51 PM, Paul King wrote:
Do you have room for a second HD? My linux boots from a different HD, and the only thing modified on the Windows HD is the MBR. Been doing it that way for years, with W7, and now with W10 installed. Hard to do on a notebook computer with room for only one drive. You would be surprised how many disks you can fit in some notebooks.
My wife's thinkpad T430 has 3 disks in it at the moment, while my W530 has 2 plus the DVD drive (which the T430 had to give up for a disk).
Yes, I know some support multiple drives. However, many don't.
On 01/04/16 16:46, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
When I buy a PC, it almost always comes with Win 10 these days and I am not brave enough to throw it away. So I install Linux beside Windows. For this I need to shrink the Windows partition.
Windows is unwilling to shrink its NTFS partition to less than half its original size. [...] third party tools [...] but I don't want to learn about them or trust them.
So use Linux to resize the partition to give Windows less than half of the disk. There are a couple of tricks that you need to know.
Windows 10, by default, uses something called Fast Startup[...] shut down [...] only hibernates [...] turn off Fast Startup before shutting down Win 10. Settings: System: Power and Sleep: Additional Power Settings: Choose what the power buttons do: Change settings that are currently unavailable: Under Shutdown Settings, untick: Turn on fast startup (recommended) (I don't think that Microsoft wants you to find this.)[...]
I wasn't aware of that! Thanks! You might want to check this out... http://www.tuxera.com/community/ntfs-3g-manual/ or I just place a shutdown shortcut on the desktop. The following functions on MS Win10... http://techstrick.blogspot.ca/2012/07/how-to-shut-down-windows-8-completely.... [...]
Alternative solution (unreliable report of Giles' approach):
Before EVER booting Wind 10, install Linux. Win 10 first-boot process won't eat a Linux installation.
I recommend backing up MS Win10 before booting it... https://youcanlinux.wordpress.com/backup-using-free-open-source-software/ have a great day! Daniel Villarreal P.S. At some point I want to experiment installing GNU/Linux side-by-side with MS Win10...
On 05/01/16 12:22 PM, Daniel Villarreal wrote:
On 01/04/16 16:46, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
Windows 10, by default, uses something called Fast Startup[...] shut down [...] only hibernates [...] turn off Fast Startup before shutting down Win 10. Settings: System: Power and Sleep: Additional Power Settings: Choose what the power buttons do: Change settings that are currently unavailable: Under Shutdown Settings, untick: Turn on fast startup (recommended) (I don't think that Microsoft wants you to find this.)[...]
I wasn't aware of that! Thanks!
"That's very brave, Minister" If I were Sir Humphry, I'd be warning MS that they shouldn't hibernate and OS that needs to be rebooted even /occasionally/, as over time, every single purchase will need to reboot. Or buy a new machine (;-)) --dave -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain
Yeah, I got bitten by hibernation issue last week, when I was upgrading Windows7 laptop to Windows10. You can't mount NTFS partition when it's hiberating! Now, as for Linux install, I use SSD in slimstyle DVD slot, using $15 adapter. -- William On Mon, Jan 04, 2016 at 04:46:55PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
When I buy a PC, it almost always comes with Win 10 these days and I am not brave enough to throw it away. So I install Linux beside Windows. For this I need to shrink the Windows partition.
Windows is unwilling to shrink its NTFS partition to less than half its original size. That's because it has placed the Master File Table in the middle of the partition and considers it unmovable. There are third party tools that can do this but I don't want to learn about them or trust them.
So use Linux to resize the partition to give Windows less than half of the disk. There are a couple of tricks that you need to know.
Windows 10, by default, uses something called Fast Startup. That means that when you ask it to shut down, it only hibernates. I think that that means that if you change its partition (or any of several other things) while it is shut down, Bad Things might happen. I think that it is best turn off Fast Startup before shutting down Win 10. Settings: System: Power and Sleep: Additional Power Settings: Choose what the power buttons do: Change settings that are currently unavailable: Under Shutdown Settings, untick: Turn on fast startup (recommended) (I don't think that Microsoft wants you to find this.)
Shutdown Windows 10. Boot your favourite Live linux (need not be what you install). Run gparted to resize the NTFS partition.
SUPERSTITIOUS MODE ON /* this seems to be needed */ Immediately shut down Linux. Reboot Windows (it will repair some damage caused by ntfsresize). Shut down Windows. SUPERSTITIOUS MODE OFF
Install Linux however you wish to.
You can turn on Windows' fast startup. But only if Linux and Windows share no filesystems.
================
Alternative solution (unreliable report of Giles' approach):
Before EVER booting Wind 10, install Linux. Win 10 first-boot process won't eat a Linux installation. --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org http://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
participants (12)
-
Blaise Alleyne -
Bob Jonkman -
CLIFFORD ILKAY -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Daniel Villarreal -
Darryl Moore -
David Collier-Brown -
James Knott -
Lennart Sorensen -
Paul King -
Stewart C. Russell -
William Park