Linux expels Russian Kernel Maintainers
No. Linux hasn't expelled Russian Kernel Maintainers. Linux has removed kernel maintainers who work for entities on the US OFAC SDN List. Dhaval
Expelled. Removed. Po-tay-to. Po-tah-to. Result is the same. The pushback, and Linus' response, is entertaining nonetheless. On Fri, Oct 25, 2024, 10:43 Dhaval Giani via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
No. Linux hasn't expelled Russian Kernel Maintainers. Linux has removed kernel maintainers who work for entities on the US OFAC SDN List.
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On 2024-10-25 11:34, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
Expelled. Removed. Maybe you missed a key nuance. Russians were not expelled. It was
On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 8:33 AM Evan Leibovitch<evan@telly.org> wrote: maintainers who are working for sanctioned entities.
The thing is in the list of "sanctioned entities". If part of the list is *.fsb.ru or *.<somecompany>.ru than that is likely a well defined list but if the list is *.ru then that rejects everybody. In a quick look I could not find a good list or description of what "entities" were sanctioned, where "entity" was not a person. 10 minutes of googling/duck-ducking is not an exhaustive search so I will not claim any great certainty in findings. -- Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || home: (905)513-7688 alvin@netvel.net ||
On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 8:52 AM Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2024-10-25 11:34, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 8:33 AM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
Expelled. Removed.
Maybe you missed a key nuance. Russians were not expelled. It was maintainers who are working for sanctioned entities.
The thing is in the list of "sanctioned entities". If part of the list is *.fsb.ru or *.<somecompany>.ru than that is likely a well defined list but if the list is *.ru then that rejects everybody. In a quick look I could not find a good list or description of what "entities" were sanctioned, where "entity" was not a person. 10 minutes of googling/duck-ducking is not an exhaustive search so I will not claim any great certainty in findings.
https://lwn.net/ml/all/7ee74c1b5b589619a13c6318c9fbd0d6ac7c334a.camel@Hansen... specifically calls out the list. It also has enough keywords if you need to search. Dhaval
Reply is below quoted content. On Friday, October 25, 2024 11:34:47 A.M. EDT Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 8:33 AM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
Expelled. Removed.
Maybe you missed a key nuance. Russians were not expelled. It was maintainers who are working for sanctioned entities.
I have two observations. First, only one person named (Serge Semin) can be confirmed to be working for "sanctioned entities," while for all other people being removed, the only common thing they have is to be using a .ru email address. Second, "complying with government orders" does not automatically justify some action as ethical. Government orders can be unethical, for example, if the government requires all end-to-end encryption applications to implement a backdoor for the government. Complying with that order will definitely be a highly unethical action. When the government requires something A, one should not automatically add A to their moral standards. A good moral standard, in my opinion, should still be non-discriminative. For example, the standard can disallow the action of killing people, but it should not, however, disallow the action of killing people of only some identities, while allowing the action of killing of others, because that would be discriminative (the reality, of course, is much more complicated, this is but a simplified model to illustrate my opinion). In this way, the Linux Foundation can be doing an unethical thing, and it is understandable. What cannot be justified is doing an unethical thing and still claim that it is being ethical. In this case, what they might not be able to do is to revert the removal, but what they are definitely able to do is to acknowledge that the removal is unethical and discriminative, to condemn the current situation, and call on the public to protest against it. Best regards, tusooa
On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 11:56 AM tusooa via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Reply is below quoted content.
On Friday, October 25, 2024 11:34:47 A.M. EDT Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 8:33 AM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
Expelled. Removed.
Maybe you missed a key nuance. Russians were not expelled. It was maintainers who are working for sanctioned entities.
I have two observations. First, only one person named (Serge Semin) can be confirmed to be working for "sanctioned entities," while for all other people being removed, the only common thing they have is to be using a .ru email address.
Second, "complying with government orders" does not automatically justify some action as ethical. Government orders can be unethical, for example, if the government requires all end-to-end encryption applications to implement a backdoor for the government. Complying with that order will definitely be a highly unethical action.
When the government requires something A, one should not automatically add A to their moral standards. A good moral standard, in my opinion, should still be non-discriminative. For example, the standard can disallow the action of killing people, but it should not, however, disallow the action of killing people of only some identities, while allowing the action of killing of others, because that would be discriminative (the reality, of course, is much more complicated, this is but a simplified model to illustrate my opinion).
In this way, the Linux Foundation can be doing an unethical thing, and it is understandable. What cannot be justified is doing an unethical thing and still claim that it is being ethical. In this case, what they might not be able to do is to revert the removal, but what they are definitely able to do is to acknowledge that the removal is unethical and discriminative, to condemn the current situation, and call on the public to protest against it.
Best regards, tusooa
The Linux Foundation is a US based entity, and as such, is subjet to all rules and regulations issued by the US government. Entities such as this will receive a list of sanctioned entities that they MUST NOT work with, under penalty of heavy fines. So even if the emails removed do not contain "fsb" or whatever subdomain, the LF will have an internal list that they possibly cannot publish based on orders of the US Gov that includes people with just an .ru email address, and even some with .ca for all I care. This a legal issue, the LF literally has no choice here, Linus just happens to agree with them because of his own reasons. Is it unethical? This is a personal point of view, but as a BUSINESS, they don't get that luxury. -nick
On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 12:08 PM Nick Accad via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
The Linux Foundation is a US based entity, and as such, is subjet to all rules and regulations issued by the US government.
This is about more than US sanctions. FYI for the actual innocent bystanders who aren't troll farm accounts - the
"various compliance requirements" are not just a US thing. If you haven't heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day. And by "news", I don't mean Russian state-sponsored spam. As to sending me a revert patch - please use whatever mush you call brains. I'm Finnish. Did you think I'd be *supporting* Russian aggression? Apparently it's not just lack of real news, it's lack of history knowledge too.
- Linus
<https://lore.kernel.org/all/CAHk-=whNGNVnYHHSXUAsWds_MoZ-iEgRMQMxZZ0z-jY4uHT+Gg@mail.gmail.com/>
-- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56
On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 9:47 AM Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 12:08 PM Nick Accad via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
The Linux Foundation is a US based entity, and as such, is subjet to all rules and regulations issued by the US government.
This is about more than US sanctions.
FYI for the actual innocent bystanders who aren't troll farm accounts - the "various compliance requirements" are not just a US thing. If you haven't heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day. And by "news", I don't mean Russian state-sponsored spam. As to sending me a revert patch - please use whatever mush you call brains. I'm Finnish. Did you think I'd be *supporting* Russian aggression? Apparently it's not just lack of real news, it's lack of history knowledge too.
- Linus
What is the claim you are making here?
On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 12:55 PM Dhaval Giani <dhaval.giani@gmail.com> wrote:
This is about more than US sanctions.
What is the claim you are making here?
More observation than claim, based on the appeal to ethics in some entries in this thread: Yes, the removal/expulsion is at least in part because of sanctions. But Linus not only is going along with them, he is supportive, vigorously resisting pushback, and possibly going beyond the letter of the regulation based on what he considers completely ethical grounds. My only claim is that I'm fine with that. -- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56
On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 12:47 PM Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
On Fri, Oct 25, 2024 at 12:08 PM Nick Accad via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
The Linux Foundation is a US based entity, and as such, is subjet to all rules and regulations issued by the US government.
This is about more than US sanctions.
FYI for the actual innocent bystanders who aren't troll farm accounts -
the "various compliance requirements" are not just a US thing. If you haven't heard of Russian sanctions yet, you should try to read the news some day. And by "news", I don't mean Russian state-sponsored spam. As to sending me a revert patch - please use whatever mush you call brains. I'm Finnish. Did you think I'd be *supporting* Russian aggression? Apparently it's not just lack of real news, it's lack of history knowledge too.
- Linus
<https://lore.kernel.org/all/CAHk-=whNGNVnYHHSXUAsWds_MoZ-iEgRMQMxZZ0z-jY4uHT+Gg@mail.gmail.com/>
-- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56
"This a legal issue, the LF literally has no choice here, Linus just happens to agree with them because of his own reasons." If the US GOV decided tomorrow to sanction Finland, Linus will have egg on his face, but LF will have no choice but to comply. Linus' reactions are his own, in this instance he happens to agree with it.
participants (6)
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Alvin Starr -
Ansar Mohammed -
Dhaval Giani -
Evan Leibovitch -
Nick Accad -
tusooa