Keyboards WAS Re: Thinkpad T420 as a VM host
On 5 August 2015 at 23:20, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh@mimosa.com> wrote:
Many people love ThinkPad keyboards, especially the ones on older ThinkPads. One of the main complaints about newer ThinkPad keyboards is "they aren't as good as the old ones".
How can this square with your observations?
- keyboards are at least partially a matter of personal taste
- your T43 might have a dud keyboard.
In any case, the only way you'll really know if you'll like a keyboard is to try it.
Me? Lots of keyboards seem bad, some seem elegant but not to my taste, many seem fine / good enough. None has captured me.
| - it's stiff, so you need to "push" rather than "tap", | - it doesn't spring back, fast enough or "crispy" enough, so you | actually notice and become aware of the keypresses. And, that | interferes with my typing.
Many typists like being sure when they press a key.
Significant key travel is considered desirable by many (but not all). And rare in modern notebooks because of the quest for thin.
A tactile signal of a keypress registering is considered a Good Thing (except by many gamers). Something sort of lost with most modern key structures.
There has been a renaissance of mechanical keyboards. They cost several times as much as regular keyboards. And a great deal has been written about the characteristics of each. I thought that I'd like Cherry blue, brown, or clear keys. <http://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2012/12/an-introduction-to-cherry-mx-mechanical-switches/>
I'm using a mechanical keyboard to type this (Rosewill RK-6000; imitation Alps keys, somewhat like Cherry Blue). It is fine, but not a revelation. I have the same reaction to my wife's keyboard with Cherry brown switches. I find it especially disappointing that a key can register on my keyboard without a click and a click can happen without a registration (these problems don't seem to happen with the way I type).
In ThinkPads, I like my x61's keyboard better than my T530's.
I have a rather depressing variety of mechanical keyboards, including a couple IBM Model Ms. To clarify my biases, I LOVE the feel of the IBM Model M keys. My keyboard at work is a Kinesis Advantage with their standard Cherry Brown switches. I think the Advantage's physical layout is about the best that's available in any keyboard right now: vertical columns (rather than slanted columns we still persist in copying from typewriters: not only is it no longer necessary, it's actually ergonomically bad), dished hand areas to match differences in finger length, and a split between the hands. I have three Kinesis Advantages. As mentioned, one has the original Cherry Browns. They're okay. I have a second that I refitted with Cherry Blues: that's the one I use at home. That's my idea of a great keyboard. The Cherry Blues are about as close as you'll get to the behaviour of the IBM Model M buckling spring keys (short of buying one of the Unicomp keyboards that actually have buckling springs). They have a strong tactile click when the key activates. It's also audible: it's just as well I live alone, as the Blues are notoriously loud and irritate the crap out of people nearby (just like the Model M). I refitted the third Kinesis Advantage with Cherry Clears. Initially they feel quite similar to the Browns, but they're stiffer: you don't notice it immediately, but after a couple hours of typing, I found it genuinely tiring to use. I don't use it much. I highly recommend the Cherry Blues to non-gamers. Just be prepared for the noise. The bigger Canada Computers stores usually have several keyboards with different Cherry switches out for testing. If anyone has questions about any of this, feel free to contact me off-list: I've been a bit of a keyboard wonk for a couple decades. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com
FWIW I have been very happy with my Cooler Master CheeryBrown-based KB http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=21_273_274&item_id=061959 I brought it to work to replace the crap PC standard one that came with the office PC. Quieter then Cherry Blue but still noisier than the squishy standard, works just as good for me. On 6 August 2015 at 16:05, Giles Orr <gilesorr@gmail.com> wrote:
On 5 August 2015 at 23:20, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh@mimosa.com> wrote:
Many people love ThinkPad keyboards, especially the ones on older ThinkPads. One of the main complaints about newer ThinkPad keyboards is "they aren't as good as the old ones".
How can this square with your observations?
- keyboards are at least partially a matter of personal taste
- your T43 might have a dud keyboard.
In any case, the only way you'll really know if you'll like a keyboard is to try it.
Me? Lots of keyboards seem bad, some seem elegant but not to my taste, many seem fine / good enough. None has captured me.
| - it's stiff, so you need to "push" rather than "tap", | - it doesn't spring back, fast enough or "crispy" enough, so you | actually notice and become aware of the keypresses. And, that | interferes with my typing.
Many typists like being sure when they press a key.
Significant key travel is considered desirable by many (but not all). And rare in modern notebooks because of the quest for thin.
A tactile signal of a keypress registering is considered a Good Thing (except by many gamers). Something sort of lost with most modern key structures.
There has been a renaissance of mechanical keyboards. They cost several times as much as regular keyboards. And a great deal has been written about the characteristics of each. I thought that I'd like Cherry blue, brown, or clear keys. < http://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2012/12/an-introduction-to-cherry-m...
I'm using a mechanical keyboard to type this (Rosewill RK-6000; imitation Alps keys, somewhat like Cherry Blue). It is fine, but not a revelation. I have the same reaction to my wife's keyboard with Cherry brown switches. I find it especially disappointing that a key can register on my keyboard without a click and a click can happen without a registration (these problems don't seem to happen with the way I type).
In ThinkPads, I like my x61's keyboard better than my T530's.
I have a rather depressing variety of mechanical keyboards, including a couple IBM Model Ms. To clarify my biases, I LOVE the feel of the IBM Model M keys. My keyboard at work is a Kinesis Advantage with their standard Cherry Brown switches. I think the Advantage's physical layout is about the best that's available in any keyboard right now: vertical columns (rather than slanted columns we still persist in copying from typewriters: not only is it no longer necessary, it's actually ergonomically bad), dished hand areas to match differences in finger length, and a split between the hands.
I have three Kinesis Advantages. As mentioned, one has the original Cherry Browns. They're okay. I have a second that I refitted with Cherry Blues: that's the one I use at home. That's my idea of a great keyboard. The Cherry Blues are about as close as you'll get to the behaviour of the IBM Model M buckling spring keys (short of buying one of the Unicomp keyboards that actually have buckling springs). They have a strong tactile click when the key activates. It's also audible: it's just as well I live alone, as the Blues are notoriously loud and irritate the crap out of people nearby (just like the Model M). I refitted the third Kinesis Advantage with Cherry Clears. Initially they feel quite similar to the Browns, but they're stiffer: you don't notice it immediately, but after a couple hours of typing, I found it genuinely tiring to use. I don't use it much.
I highly recommend the Cherry Blues to non-gamers. Just be prepared for the noise. The bigger Canada Computers stores usually have several keyboards with different Cherry switches out for testing.
If anyone has questions about any of this, feel free to contact me off-list: I've been a bit of a keyboard wonk for a couple decades.
-- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org http://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Evan Leibovitch Geneva, CH Em: evan at telly dot org Sk: evanleibovitch Tw: el56
On Thu, Aug 06, 2015 at 10:05:04AM -0400, Giles Orr wrote:
I have a rather depressing variety of mechanical keyboards, including a couple IBM Model Ms. To clarify my biases, I LOVE the feel of the IBM Model M keys. My keyboard at work is a Kinesis Advantage with their standard Cherry Brown switches. I think the Advantage's physical layout is about the best that's available in any keyboard right now: vertical columns (rather than slanted columns we still persist in copying from typewriters: not only is it no longer necessary, it's actually ergonomically bad), dished hand areas to match differences in finger length, and a split between the hands.
I have three Kinesis Advantages. As mentioned, one has the original Cherry Browns. They're okay. I have a second that I refitted with Cherry Blues: that's the one I use at home. That's my idea of a great keyboard. The Cherry Blues are about as close as you'll get to the behaviour of the IBM Model M buckling spring keys (short of buying one of the Unicomp keyboards that actually have buckling springs). They have a strong tactile click when the key activates. It's also audible: it's just as well I live alone, as the Blues are notoriously loud and irritate the crap out of people nearby (just like the Model M). I refitted the third Kinesis Advantage with Cherry Clears. Initially they feel quite similar to the Browns, but they're stiffer: you don't notice it immediately, but after a couple hours of typing, I found it genuinely tiring to use. I don't use it much.
I highly recommend the Cherry Blues to non-gamers. Just be prepared for the noise. The bigger Canada Computers stores usually have several keyboards with different Cherry switches out for testing.
If anyone has questions about any of this, feel free to contact me off-list: I've been a bit of a keyboard wonk for a couple decades.
I will stick to my keytronic (currently an E03600U2). I hate the noise of the old IBMs. Fortunately the model M is durable enough to sufficiently punish anyone who tries to use one nearby that the keyboard won't suffer any damage and can still be used by someone else that politely does so when they are alone. :) -- Len Sorensen
Lennart Sorensen wrote:
I will stick to my keytronic (currently an E03600U2). I hate the noise of the old IBMs. Fortunately the model M is durable enough to sufficiently punish anyone who tries to use one nearby that the keyboard won't suffer any damage and can still be used by someone else that politely does so when they are alone. :)
That's nothing compared to the dire and baroque things the coworker who used to sit across from me was going to do if anyone brought in a Model M. Of course, you have to be faster than the proprietor of said keyboard if you want to do any of that. At least the Lenovo keyboards work uses consistently hit the minimum standard for a usable keyboard. But it seems a shame not to be able to do my best coding there. There's really nothing as nice to type on as a quarter-century-old Model M. And hey, if I wanted to make noise why bother with a Model M when I can fire up my chainsaw? :-) -- Anthony de Boer
On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 07:32:41PM -0400, Anthony de Boer wrote:
That's nothing compared to the dire and baroque things the coworker who used to sit across from me was going to do if anyone brought in a Model M. Of course, you have to be faster than the proprietor of said keyboard if you want to do any of that.
They won't hear you coming for all the noise.
At least the Lenovo keyboards work uses consistently hit the minimum standard for a usable keyboard. But it seems a shame not to be able to do my best coding there. There's really nothing as nice to type on as a quarter-century-old Model M.
Too noisy and a bit too hard to press for my liking. Old IBm keyboards never die, but I sure don't miss them.
And hey, if I wanted to make noise why bother with a Model M when I can fire up my chainsaw? :-)
You might get noticed carrying one of those. -- Len Sorensen
participants (5)
-
Anthony de Boer -
Evan Leibovitch -
Giles Orr -
James Knott -
Lennart Sorensen