I think Fedora is on its way to becoming the replacement for Ubuntu as the default recommended desktop distro based on the opinions of various linux podcasts, youtubers and linux reddit communities. I'm happy with Manjaro but if I were choosing a new distro to move to, it would be Fedora. ------- Original Message ------- On Monday, May 2nd, 2022 at 4:36 AM, Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

Thanks. Ugh. Your timing is perfect, because I'm just about to do a fresh install and this would be the time to decide on something else.

I'm looking for an alternative that will offer support for a KDE version as well as Steam and my fairly-new AMD graphics card (RX 6500 XT). I'd also prefer to live snap-free.

Mint and Pop don't support KDE, SuSE has problems with Steam and I'm exhausted enough that I don't want one more learning curve wrt the Arch way of doing things. Right now my best choices appear to be MX, KDE Neon (if I install the 32-bit libraries for Steam) and (if I want to go back to an RPM-based system for the first time since Mandriva ceased,) Fedora KDE.

Any suggestions, either from these choices or something else? Thanks again.

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56

On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 2:14 AM William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

...

https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20220502#ubuntu

[Last paragraph] I think the launch of Ubuntu 22.04 is a clear sign Canonical is much more interested in publishing releases on a set schedule than producing something worthwhile. This version was not ready for release and it's is probably going to be a costly endeavour to maintain this collection of mixed versioned software and mixed display server and mixed designs for a full five years. It's a platform I would recommend avoiding. -- --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 9:35 AM William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

Yeah, I'm looking at Fedora too. I just want something that is stable, that works after install, and will continue to work after upgrades for foreseeable future. You can say that for Slackware. But, I'm getting old for "manual transmission"...

As someone who will only install Fedora on his personal machines - and has been using Fedora for 16 yrs now (I had to double check the dates :-) ), I would really not recommend Fedora to someone who just wants things to "work". I have never had an issue with something not working, but I have almost always required some "advanced" level tinkering at times with just a "dnf update". I lost wifi once because for some reason, an update decided to get rid of all the firmware files. Another thing to keep in mind is - Fedora is fairly aggressive with upgrades, and sometimes things are just, umm, unfinished, which again breaks things. They do try to keep the upgrades under control within a major release, but it is very maintainer dependent. And also, be prepared to have workflow changes over major upgrades (and you do do major upgrades frequently, because Fedora EOLs major versions fairly aggressively). And now I have a new, specced up laptop, but I can't get Fedora up on it - because nvidia. Maybe when I have a few hours free to spend on that. Having said all of that, there is no other distro I would use for my personal laptops. Dhaval

On 5/2/22 11:21, gs via talk wrote:

...

I think Fedora is on its way to becoming the replacement for Ubuntu as the default recommended desktop distro based on the opinions of various linux podcasts, youtubers and linux reddit communities.

I'm happy with Manjaro but if I were choosing a new distro to move to, it would be Fedora.

------- Original Message ------- On Monday, May 2nd, 2022 at 4:36 AM, Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

...

Thanks. Ugh.

Your timing is perfect, because I'm just about to do a fresh install and this would be the time to decide on something else.

I'm looking for an alternative that will offer support for a KDE version as well as Steam and my fairly-new AMD graphics card (RX 6500 XT). I'd also prefer to live snap-free.

Mint and Pop don't support KDE, SuSE has problems with Steam and I'm exhausted enough that I don't want one more learning curve wrt the Arch way of doing things. Right now my best choices appear to be MX, KDE Neon (if I install the 32-bit libraries for Steam) and (if I want to go back to an RPM-based system for the first time since Mandriva ceased,) Fedora KDE.

Any suggestions, either from these choices or something else? Thanks again.

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56

On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 2:14 AM William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:

https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20220502#ubuntu <https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20220502#ubuntu>

[Last paragraph] I think the launch of Ubuntu 22.04 is a clear sign Canonical is much more interested in publishing releases on a set schedule than producing something worthwhile. This version was not ready for release and it's is probably going to be a costly endeavour to maintain this collection of mixed versioned software and mixed display server and mixed designs for a full five years. It's a platform I would recommend avoiding. -- --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org> Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk <https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk>

--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

---

Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

Anyone using MX? - Evan On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 12:52 PM Dave Collier-Brown via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

I've been using Fedora for something like 8 years, with no functionality loss in that time during updates.

--dave On 5/2/22 11:21, gs via talk wrote:

I think Fedora is on its way to becoming the replacement for Ubuntu as the default recommended desktop distro based on the opinions of various linux podcasts, youtubers and linux reddit communities.

I'm happy with Manjaro but if I were choosing a new distro to move to, it would be Fedora.

------- Original Message ------- On Monday, May 2nd, 2022 at 4:36 AM, Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

Thanks. Ugh.

Your timing is perfect, because I'm just about to do a fresh install and this would be the time to decide on something else.

I'm looking for an alternative that will offer support for a KDE version as well as Steam and my fairly-new AMD graphics card (RX 6500 XT). I'd also prefer to live snap-free.

Mint and Pop don't support KDE, SuSE has problems with Steam and I'm exhausted enough that I don't want one more learning curve wrt the Arch way of doing things. Right now my best choices appear to be MX, KDE Neon (if I install the 32-bit libraries for Steam) and (if I want to go back to an RPM-based system for the first time since Mandriva ceased,) Fedora KDE.

Any suggestions, either from these choices or something else? Thanks again.

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56

On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 2:14 AM William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

...

https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20220502#ubuntu

[Last paragraph] I think the launch of Ubuntu 22.04 is a clear sign Canonical is much more interested in publishing releases on a set schedule than producing something worthwhile. This version was not ready for release and it's is probably going to be a costly endeavour to maintain this collection of mixed versioned software and mixed display server and mixed designs for a full five years. It's a platform I would recommend avoiding. -- --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the restdave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain

*CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER** : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.* --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

Why wouldn't you consider Debian? I run it on a firewall, my personal computer, our media center and two music server rasberry PIs. I run some stations KDE, some XFCE and some headless. There is no requirement to take snapd. If you feel Debians release cycle is too slow, follow the testing branch as I do. Development environments, editors, text and graphics manipulation, git tooling, servers: its all there. On 2022-05-02 04:36, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

Thanks. Ugh.

Your timing is perfect, because I'm just about to do a fresh install and this would be the time to decide on something else.

I'm looking for an alternative that will offer support for a KDE version as well as Steam and my fairly-new AMD graphics card (RX 6500 XT). I'd also prefer to live snap-free.

Mint and Pop don't support KDE, SuSE has problems with Steam and I'm exhausted enough that I don't want one more learning curve wrt the Arch way of doing things. Right now my best choices appear to be MX, KDE Neon (if I install the 32-bit libraries for Steam) and (if I want to go back to an RPM-based system for the first time since Mandriva ceased,) Fedora KDE.

Any suggestions, either from these choices or something else? Thanks again.

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56

On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 2:14 AM William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:

https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20220502#ubuntu <https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20220502#ubuntu>

[Last paragraph] I think the launch of Ubuntu 22.04 is a clear sign Canonical is much more interested in publishing releases on a set schedule than producing something worthwhile. This version was not ready for release and it's is probably going to be a costly endeavour to maintain this collection of mixed versioned software and mixed display server and mixed designs for a full five years. It's a platform I would recommend avoiding. -- --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org> Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk <https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk>

--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- Michael Galea

I switched to Ubuntu-MATE many years ago when Gnome3 and Unity desktops became the standard. It was a pretty seamless transition from Gnome2... Then when Ubuntu started relying on snap packages I switched to Debian with MATE, another seamless transition. MATE is the desktop that doesn't get in the way of me getting things done. LXDE and Xcfe are OK too, and I'll use them on older (32-bit) computers. --Bob. On 2022-05-02 16:32, Michael Galea via talk wrote:

Why wouldn't you consider Debian?  I run it on a firewall, my personal computer, our media center and two music server rasberry PIs.

I run some stations KDE, some XFCE and some headless. There is no requirement to take snapd. If you feel Debians release cycle is too slow, follow the testing branch as I do. Development environments, editors, text and graphics manipulation, git tooling, servers: its all there.

On 2022-05-02 04:36, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

...

Thanks. Ugh.

Your timing is perfect, because I'm just about to do a fresh install and this would be the time to decide on something else.

I'm looking for an alternative that will offer support for a KDE version as well as Steam and my fairly-new AMD graphics card (RX 6500 XT). I'd also prefer to live snap-free.

Mint and Pop don't support KDE, SuSE has problems with Steam and I'm exhausted enough that I don't want one more learning curve wrt the Arch way of doing things. Right now my best choices appear to be MX, KDE Neon (if I install the 32-bit libraries for Steam) and (if I want to go back to an RPM-based system for the first time since Mandriva ceased,) Fedora KDE.

Any suggestions, either from these choices or something else? Thanks again.

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56

On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 2:14 AM William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:

    https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20220502#ubuntu     <https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20220502#ubuntu>

    [Last paragraph]     I think the launch of Ubuntu 22.04 is a clear sign Canonical is much     more interested in publishing releases on a set schedule than producing     something worthwhile. This version was not ready for release and     it's is     probably going to be a costly endeavour to maintain this collection of     mixed versioned software and mixed display server and mixed designs for     a full five years. It's a platform I would recommend avoiding.     --     ---     Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>     Unsubscribe from this mailing list     https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk     <https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk>

--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- Bob Jonkman <bjonkman@sobac.com> Phone: +1-519-635-9413 SOBAC Microcomputer Services http://sobac.com/sobac/ Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting GnuPG Fngrprnt:04F7 742B 8F54 C40A E115 26C2 B912 89B0 D2CC E5EA

Snaps are a kludge to solve a solved problem in computer science. Unfortunately, it's one that people keep thinking is new and unique to their OS or language or package. Solved in Multics, Solaris and Linux glibc. Notably unsolved in the rest of Linux, Javascript, Python and Go. I suspect due to a bad case of Not Invented Here. If someone ships you a mess, try not to run it. If you have the time to spare, run it in a container. If you can't avoid it, run it in a snap, flatpack or appimage. --dave On 5/2/22 16:53, Alvin Starr via talk wrote: On 2022-05-02 04:36, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote: Thanks. Ugh. Your timing is perfect, because I'm just about to do a fresh install and this would be the time to decide on something else. I'm looking for an alternative that will offer support for a KDE version as well as Steam and my fairly-new AMD graphics card (RX 6500 XT). I'd also prefer to live snap-free. Mint and Pop don't support KDE, SuSE has problems with Steam and I'm exhausted enough that I don't want one more learning curve wrt the Arch way of doing things. Right now my best choices appear to be MX, KDE Neon (if I install the 32-bit libraries for Steam) and (if I want to go back to an RPM-based system for the first time since Mandriva ceased,) Fedora KDE. Any suggestions, either from these choices or something else? Thanks again. Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56 I have had very good luck with Fedora. I am extremely happy with YUM/dnf and RPMs. Mixed feelings about snaps. They are kind of like docker containers but seem to have a bunch of extra stuff with them. I have found great utility in containers to solve all kinds of problems with otherwise unresolvable software dependencies. YMMV. I run Gnome. I tend to do bunches of software testing and installation. I never run games ( The last one I tried was a Sikorsky LHX helicopter simulator and nothing yet has come close ). Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net<mailto:alvin@netvel.net> || --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org<mailto:talk@gtalug.org> Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com<mailto:dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com> | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.

If you're a gamer with relatively new hardware, I think it would be beneficial to be on a distro closer to the bleeding edge to take advantage of the performance improvements that come with newer drivers and kernels even at the cost of potential instability. That's the main reason I'm on an arch-based distro but since he said he'd rather not go down that path, Fedora seems like the next best choice. The proton-ge dev uses Fedora as his main platform and has several Fedora-specific fixes. ------- Original Message ------- On Tuesday, May 3rd, 2022 at 7:29 PM, Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

On Mon, May 02, 2022 at 04:36:34AM -0400, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

...

Thanks. Ugh.

Your timing is perfect, because I'm just about to do a fresh install and this would be the time to decide on something else.

I'm looking for an alternative that will offer support for a KDE version as well as Steam and my fairly-new AMD graphics card (RX 6500 XT). I'd also prefer to live snap-free.

Mint and Pop don't support KDE, SuSE has problems with Steam and I'm exhausted enough that I don't want one more learning curve wrt the Arch way of doing things. Right now my best choices appear to be MX, KDE Neon (if I install the 32-bit libraries for Steam) and (if I want to go back to an RPM-based system for the first time since Mandriva ceased,) Fedora KDE.

Any suggestions, either from these choices or something else? Thanks again.

What's wrong with Debian? No snap there and it has kde as an option (along with just about everything else).

-- Len Sorensen --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56 On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 7:29 PM Lennart Sorensen < lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:

On Mon, May 02, 2022 at 04:36:34AM -0400, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

...

Thanks. Ugh.

Your timing is perfect, because I'm just about to do a fresh install and this would be the time to decide on something else.

I'm looking for an alternative that will offer support for a KDE version as well as Steam and my fairly-new AMD graphics card (RX 6500 XT). I'd also prefer to live snap-free.

Mint and Pop don't support KDE, SuSE has problems with Steam and I'm exhausted enough that I don't want one more learning curve wrt the Arch way of doing things. Right now my best choices appear to be MX, KDE Neon (if I install the 32-bit libraries for Steam) and (if I want to go back to an RPM-based system for the first time since Mandriva ceased,) Fedora KDE.

Any suggestions, either from these choices or something else? Thanks again.

What's wrong with Debian?

Steam installation simply should not be this much of a PITA <https://wiki.debian.org/Steam>.

No snap there and it has kde as an option

Option, but not from what I can see a core supported desktop. That's what is attracting me to MX, which is one step removed from Debian, but without the Ubuntu shenanigans. - Evan

On Wed, May 4, 2022 at 10:53 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

If you require Steam, my guess is that that should drive your choice. It is likely a differentiator. Consider installation, official support, community support. That usually means choose a distro many other Steam users use.

Agreed. Ease of support for Steam installation varies widely, from a single apt-get command to fairly rotund wiki pages and even a reddit flamewar. It's a very good initial filter, and it's why raw Debian is out of contention. My impression is that Steam work is done by the publisher only for the most

"important" distros. I assume that is Ubuntu.

That's indeed the one the vendor supports. However, other distros that care about Steam appear to have become adept at faking enough of the supported environment to allow a seamless install.

If you want proprietary video drivers, my guess is that the same applies: choose Ubuntu.

I bought an AMD card specifically so not to have this issue.

If you want a simple life, pick a popular distro that wants to give you a simple life. One that has the same view of simplicity that you do. (KDE isn't simple.)

For me, simplicity *is* KDE because I've used it for more than a dozen years. By contrast, it would be the other desktops that would require a learning process. YMMV. You probably want smooth upgrades or long version life. Ubuntu LTS provides

both.

Non-fanboy reviews of 22.04 have been unkind. Chromium is now only available as a snap, and apparently the install system doesn't even inform you that it's downloading a snap instead of a dpkg. This is not a parade in which I want to march, much as I was previously a long time Kubuntu user.

Fedora is unfriendly to proprietary things. I like that but you probably don't. Steam may well be one of those proprietary things. I have no idea if your AMD video card runs better with a proprietary driver.

It's not that I wanna be friendly, it's that I need to work with it to get to a desired destination (play my game) and Steam is the gatekeeper. I'm delighted to use FOSS wherever possible, and as I said before I specifically chose hardware to avoid proprietary drivers. I don't like Snaps or Flatpaks for the same reasons DCB doesn't like them. But

they might just be what you need to install the latest versions of Firefox or Chrome or Chromium on an older version of a distro.

Thankfully my use cases don't match these at all. Still looking here if anyone has experience with MX, which remains my top contender. - Evan

On Wed, May 04, 2022 at 02:32:41AM -0400, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

Steam installation simply should not be this much of a PITA <https://wiki.debian.org/Steam>.

That is significantly simpler than I had expected it to be. Make sure you have your graphics drivers setup (that makes sense) Install steam package (ok makes sense) Add some 32 bit support libraries in case you are running any 32 bit games on your 64 bit system (ok that seems fair too, although would have been nice if they made the steam package depend on them, although I don't know if a package is allowed to have cross architecture dependencies). -- Len Sorensen