Thinkpad T420 as a VM host
So I replaced a 4GB memory stick in my Thinkpad T420 with an 8GB one bringing the total amount of available ram to 12GB with maximum of 16GB.Even though Lenovo say that the laptop supports only 8 GB of ram total. As it stands now this 4 year old machine becomes a pretty cost-effective platform for virtualization: * Intel Core i5-2410M * 16GB max memory (~$65 per 8GB stick). * 2 SATA ports (built-in and ultrabay) * 2 mSata ports (one could be used for solid state storage) * 1 eSata port. * 1 Gigabit ethernet * 1 SD card Canada computers sells refurbished ones for about $300 and I think there are some available in Brampton. Also I saw a few similar refurbished machines on Amazon. Alex.
So, are you going to post your experience of VMs on it? Or, are you selling it? ;-) -- WilliM On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 06:01:46PM -0400, Alex Volkov wrote:
So I replaced a 4GB memory stick in my Thinkpad T420 with an 8GB one bringing the total amount of available ram to 12GB with maximum of 16GB.Even though Lenovo say that the laptop supports only 8 GB of ram total.
As it stands now this 4 year old machine becomes a pretty cost-effective platform for virtualization:
* Intel Core i5-2410M * 16GB max memory (~$65 per 8GB stick). * 2 SATA ports (built-in and ultrabay) * 2 mSata ports (one could be used for solid state storage) * 1 eSata port. * 1 Gigabit ethernet * 1 SD card
Canada computers sells refurbished ones for about $300 and I think there are some available in Brampton. Also I saw a few similar refurbished machines on Amazon.
Alex.
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I just added some RAM for relatively cheap and it got me thinking that this little laptop satisfies pretty much all the requirements for a VM machine even though it's a laptop and is old. On 19/07/15 06:05 PM, William Park wrote:
So, are you going to post your experience of VMs on it? Or, are you selling it? ;-)
(I meant to reply to both the author and the list. So, ignore any duplicate.) Hi Alex, If T420 can do 16GB, then I can replace my desktop with it, which has 16GB (DDR3-1333) right now. But, I have question about T420 keyboard. I currently have T43, and its keyboard is difficult to type on, at least for me. - it's stiff, so you need to "push" rather than "tap", - it doesn't spring back, fast enough or "crispy" enough, so you actually notice and become aware of the keypresses. And, that interferes with my typing. Are you able to type fast and comfortably on your T420? -- William On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 06:10:24PM -0400, Alex Volkov wrote:
I just added some RAM for relatively cheap and it got me thinking that this little laptop satisfies pretty much all the requirements for a VM machine even though it's a laptop and is old.
On 19/07/15 06:05 PM, William Park wrote:
So, are you going to post your experience of VMs on it? Or, are you selling it? ;-)
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I have a new T440p with 16GB, running Fedora 22, thus far it's reasonable. I'm a hunt-and-peck person, so the KB isn't a big consideration: it works, I'm happy. --dave I have a On 04/08/15 10:29 PM, William Park wrote:
(I meant to reply to both the author and the list. So, ignore any duplicate.)On another subject entirely, courtesy of Alan Rocker, https://esolangs.org/wiki/VALGOL
Hi Alex,
If T420 can do 16GB, then I can replace my desktop with it, which has 16GB (DDR3-1333) right now. But, I have question about T420 keyboard.
I currently have T43, and its keyboard is difficult to type on, at least for me. - it's stiff, so you need to "push" rather than "tap", - it doesn't spring back, fast enough or "crispy" enough, so you actually notice and become aware of the keypresses. And, that interferes with my typing.
Are you able to type fast and comfortably on your T420?
-- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain
On Wed, Aug 05, 2015 at 08:37:09PM -0400, David Collier-Brown wrote:
I have a new T440p with 16GB, running Fedora 22, thus far it's reasonable. I'm a hunt-and-peck person, so the KB isn't a big consideration: it works, I'm happy.
Unfortunately each generation has different keyboards so they are not comparable. The x30 models went to chicklet keyboards (which I so far am very happy with), but the x40 (no idea if the x40p is the same) has had a lot of complaints about keyboard latyout and most of all the changes to the trackpad and trackpoint buttons, although the some updates have fixed that again (like the W541). I think the x20 was the last with the classic thinkpad keyboard, but I am not entirely sure since I never used one myself. -- Len Sorensen
| From: William Park <opengeometry@yahoo.ca> | If T420 can do 16GB, then I can replace my desktop with it, which has | 16GB (DDR3-1333) right now. But, I have question about T420 keyboard. Most notebooks don't have the performance of desktops because the tradeoffs are different. - Most notebook CPUs are weaker than desktop CPUs. Fewer cores and lower clock rates, for a start. There are exceptions but they are outliers. - Ditto for GPUs. But GPUs may not matter much for what you hope to do. - adding disks and RAM is more constrained. May well be OK anyway - desktop displays can and should be better than notebook displays (but I seem to care more than most folks) - in a fixed installation, notebooks are a bit awkward (but you can fix that by using an external monitor, keyboard, and mouse). Many new notebooks don't let you replace batteries, RAM, or disks. Beware. Of course this is not the case with ThinkPad T420 notebooks. If you want portability, the T420 is too old: more modern Intel CPUs take a lot less power for the same performance and thus the battery lasts longer. If you don't want portability, a W-series ThinkPad may be more powerful and expandable (may depend on the generation). My son's W520 will accept up to 32G of RAM, I think. Lennart has a similar one. And it comes with a larger screen. Here's an example of a very powerful non-portable notebook: <http://www.nmicrovip.ca/rog-core-i7-4710hq-16gb-ram-1tb-hdd-17-3-gtx860m-2gb-1920x1080-dvdrw-windows-8-1-bilingual-kb-g751jm-sh71-cb-refurbished/> - quad core i7-4710hq - 1920x1080 17" IPS screen - 16G of RAM (that may well be the limit) - NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX860M Graphics with 2GB GDDR5 VRAM Beware: bilingual keyboard | I currently have T43, and its keyboard is difficult to type on, at least | for me. Many people love ThinkPad keyboards, especially the ones on older ThinkPads. One of the main complaints about newer ThinkPad keyboards is "they aren't as good as the old ones". How can this square with your observations? - keyboards are at least partially a matter of personal taste - your T43 might have a dud keyboard. In any case, the only way you'll really know if you'll like a keyboard is to try it. Me? Lots of keyboards seem bad, some seem elegant but not to my taste, many seem fine / good enough. None has captured me. | - it's stiff, so you need to "push" rather than "tap", | - it doesn't spring back, fast enough or "crispy" enough, so you | actually notice and become aware of the keypresses. And, that | interferes with my typing. Many typists like being sure when they press a key. Significant key travel is considered desirable by many (but not all). And rare in modern notebooks because of the quest for thin. A tactile signal of a keypress registering is considered a Good Thing (except by many gamers). Something sort of lost with most modern key structures. There has been a renaissance of mechanical keyboards. They cost several times as much as regular keyboards. And a great deal has been written about the characteristics of each. I thought that I'd like Cherry blue, brown, or clear keys. <http://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2012/12/an-introduction-to-cherry-mx-mechanical-switches/> I'm using a mechanical keyboard to type this (Rosewill RK-6000; imitation Alps keys, somewhat like Cherry Blue). It is fine, but not a revelation. I have the same reaction to my wife's keyboard with Cherry brown switches. I find it especially disappointing that a key can register on my keyboard without a click and a click can happen without a registration (these problems don't seem to happen with the way I type). In ThinkPads, I like my x61's keyboard better than my T530's.
On Wed, Aug 05, 2015 at 11:20:10PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
I'm using a mechanical keyboard to type this (Rosewill RK-6000; imitation Alps keys, somewhat like Cherry Blue). It is fine, but not a revelation. I have the same reaction to my wife's keyboard with Cherry brown switches. I find it especially disappointing that a key can register on my keyboard without a click and a click can happen without a registration (these problems don't seem to happen with the way I type).
Considering amount of typing I do, keyboard is very important for me. I use Topre Realforce keyboard (capacitive key). It's the most expensive keyboard, but my wrists would not have lasted this long without it. I can accept the hassle of external keyboard with laptop... if the laptop has 16GB. On my Slackware machine, my ram usage is 8GB (out of 16GB total). Firefox-31.8.0esr alone is using 4GB! That leaves 8GB for VMs. -- William
On Wed, Aug 05, 2015 at 11:20:10PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
Most notebooks don't have the performance of desktops because the tradeoffs are different.
- Most notebook CPUs are weaker than desktop CPUs. Fewer cores and lower clock rates, for a start. There are exceptions but they are outliers.
- Ditto for GPUs. But GPUs may not matter much for what you hope to do.
- adding disks and RAM is more constrained. May well be OK anyway
- desktop displays can and should be better than notebook displays (but I seem to care more than most folks)
- in a fixed installation, notebooks are a bit awkward (but you can fix that by using an external monitor, keyboard, and mouse).
Many new notebooks don't let you replace batteries, RAM, or disks. Beware. Of course this is not the case with ThinkPad T420 notebooks.
If you want portability, the T420 is too old: more modern Intel CPUs take a lot less power for the same performance and thus the battery lasts longer.
If you don't want portability, a W-series ThinkPad may be more powerful and expandable (may depend on the generation). My son's W520 will accept up to 32G of RAM, I think. Lennart has a similar one. And it comes with a larger screen.
The W530 is perfectly portable. It closes and fits in a large bag and can be carried places. :) I would hate to do it on a regular basis though. It does support 32GB ram and in my case has a Core-i7 CPU, which means quad core + hyperthreading at about 3GHz. The fact it has a 170W power supply probably tells something about the power consumption.
Here's an example of a very powerful non-portable notebook: <http://www.nmicrovip.ca/rog-core-i7-4710hq-16gb-ram-1tb-hdd-17-3-gtx860m-2gb-1920x1080-dvdrw-windows-8-1-bilingual-kb-g751jm-sh71-cb-refurbished/> - quad core i7-4710hq - 1920x1080 17" IPS screen - 16G of RAM (that may well be the limit) - NVIDIA® GeForce® GTX860M Graphics with 2GB GDDR5 VRAM Beware: bilingual keyboard
Actually I suspect it is french canadian keyboard. One of the worst keyboard layouts ever made. Looking at some pictures, that is in fact the case. Of course things can be fixed: http://us.estore.asus.com/collections/replacement-keyboard/products/g751jm-1... I did that with my wife's ideapad a few years ago (partially because the keyboard broke and it was easier to get a US replacement which was also desirable).
| I currently have T43, and its keyboard is difficult to type on, at least | for me.
Many people love ThinkPad keyboards, especially the ones on older ThinkPads. One of the main complaints about newer ThinkPad keyboards is "they aren't as good as the old ones".
How can this square with your observations?
- keyboards are at least partially a matter of personal taste
- your T43 might have a dud keyboard.
In any case, the only way you'll really know if you'll like a keyboard is to try it.
Me? Lots of keyboards seem bad, some seem elegant but not to my taste, many seem fine / good enough. None has captured me.
| - it's stiff, so you need to "push" rather than "tap", | - it doesn't spring back, fast enough or "crispy" enough, so you | actually notice and become aware of the keypresses. And, that | interferes with my typing.
I suspect the newer chicklet style thinkpad keyboard might actually be an improvement then.
Many typists like being sure when they press a key.
Significant key travel is considered desirable by many (but not all). And rare in modern notebooks because of the quest for thin.
A tactile signal of a keypress registering is considered a Good Thing (except by many gamers). Something sort of lost with most modern key structures.
There has been a renaissance of mechanical keyboards. They cost several times as much as regular keyboards. And a great deal has been written about the characteristics of each. I thought that I'd like Cherry blue, brown, or clear keys. <http://www.keyboardco.com/blog/index.php/2012/12/an-introduction-to-cherry-mx-mechanical-switches/>
I'm using a mechanical keyboard to type this (Rosewill RK-6000; imitation Alps keys, somewhat like Cherry Blue). It is fine, but not a revelation. I have the same reaction to my wife's keyboard with Cherry brown switches. I find it especially disappointing that a key can register on my keyboard without a click and a click can happen without a registration (these problems don't seem to happen with the way I type).
In ThinkPads, I like my x61's keyboard better than my T530's.
I suspect I would be the opposite. I like the W530 keyboard (which is the same as the T530). -- Len Sorensen
| From: Lennart Sorensen <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> | On Wed, Aug 05, 2015 at 11:20:10PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: | The W530 is perfectly portable. It closes and fits in a large bag and | can be carried places. :) The second computer I owned was portable: a Kaypro II. <http://www.oldcomputers.net/kayproii.html> 26 pounds. It did have a handle. | I would hate to do it on a regular basis though. The Kaypro got heavier the farther you carried it. | It does support 32GB ram and in my case has a Core-i7 CPU, which means | quad core + hyperthreading at about 3GHz. The fact it has a 170W power | supply probably tells something about the power consumption. The Kaypro had 64k of RAM and I overclocked the machine to 4MHz (I replaced the Z80 CPU with a Z80A). | > Beware: bilingual keyboard | | Actually I suspect it is french canadian keyboard. No, it is a keyboard intended to support English and French (bilingual). | One of the worst | keyboard layouts ever made. My fingers don't like it (yet?). My head thinks it is Good Thing. My fingers mostly win. My fingers don't like change. I still only use left shift because on keypunch machines right shift meant something different. I still am annoyed that I had to change habits when changing from Sun keyboards to PC keyboards. And fn-vs-ctrl placement on ThinkPads vs other notebooks vs desktops.
On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 11:18:19AM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
| From: Lennart Sorensen <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>
| On Wed, Aug 05, 2015 at 11:20:10PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
| The W530 is perfectly portable. It closes and fits in a large bag and | can be carried places. :)
The second computer I owned was portable: a Kaypro II. <http://www.oldcomputers.net/kayproii.html> 26 pounds. It did have a handle.
| I would hate to do it on a regular basis though.
The Kaypro got heavier the farther you carried it.
| It does support 32GB ram and in my case has a Core-i7 CPU, which means | quad core + hyperthreading at about 3GHz. The fact it has a 170W power | supply probably tells something about the power consumption.
The Kaypro had 64k of RAM and I overclocked the machine to 4MHz (I replaced the Z80 CPU with a Z80A).
| > Beware: bilingual keyboard | | Actually I suspect it is french canadian keyboard.
No, it is a keyboard intended to support English and French (bilingual).
| One of the worst | keyboard layouts ever made.
My fingers don't like it (yet?). My head thinks it is Good Thing. My fingers mostly win.
My fingers don't like change. I still only use left shift because on keypunch machines right shift meant something different. I still am annoyed that I had to change habits when changing from Sun keyboards to PC keyboards. And fn-vs-ctrl placement on ThinkPads vs other notebooks vs desktops.
Well thinkpads have a bios setting to swap fn and control for those that prefer it that way (and in the case of my wife's thinkpad when she broke the fn key, being able to swap it with control meant a key for controling the keyboard light and brightness existed again until we got a replacement keyboard). Dell has the keys wrong of course and no option to swap them. Also their keyboard sucks and the touchpad and trackpoint are awful. Dell sucks. :) -- Len Sorensen
Hi William, I used to have T42 a few years ago, and after years of abuse the keyboard on that laptop starter to bend and rattle as I typed, that kind of annoyed me but that was caused due to wear and tear, although your keyboard has a different defect, I suspect it was caused by the same reason. At this point your T43 is 10 years old. Other than that I would consider thinkpad keyboars as good of a laptop keyboard as it could ever be -- both for layout (function pgup/down keys in a separate row) and key travel (it is pretty crisp). Unlike other laptop keyboards, especially cramped netbook keyboards, I'm able to type comfortably for extended periods of time without getting any pain in my wrists, keys are big, far apart and I have sausage fingers. Still it is not as good as separate keyboard, and a good computer table/chair combo, as laptops by their design, inherently put you in a suboptimal typing position, but it is as good as it possibly gets for a laptop. I tend to be pretty hard on keyboard so on average I tend to replace the keyboard on my laptop every few years -- there are three variants. So far I've used two types -- the only difference I've noticed is in the design of butterfly mechanism supporting the keys. I've been been completely contend with both. https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/documents/migr-76711 Replacing a keyboard on a thinkpad is a really easy thing to do, instructions for replacing most of the things on thinkpads are available on lenovo website. https://support.lenovo.com/us/en/documents/migr-76809 If you're planning to use a T420 as a desktop, I highly suggest you getting a docking station, you can get one really cheap these days, and it might support dual external screens. Alex. On 04/08/15 10:29 PM, William Park wrote:
(I meant to reply to both the author and the list. So, ignore any duplicate.)
Hi Alex,
If T420 can do 16GB, then I can replace my desktop with it, which has 16GB (DDR3-1333) right now. But, I have question about T420 keyboard.
I currently have T43, and its keyboard is difficult to type on, at least for me. - it's stiff, so you need to "push" rather than "tap", - it doesn't spring back, fast enough or "crispy" enough, so you actually notice and become aware of the keypresses. And, that interferes with my typing.
Are you able to type fast and comfortably on your T420?
On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 06:01:46PM -0400, Alex Volkov wrote:
So I replaced a 4GB memory stick in my Thinkpad T420 with an 8GB one bringing the total amount of available ram to 12GB with maximum of 16GB.Even though Lenovo say that the laptop supports only 8 GB of ram total.
You might have just made your machine slower by doing that. Maybe. Most modern CPUs are at least dual channel memory controller based, but can only use the dual channel mode to interleave accesses if the memory matches in size. So 2x4GB is fast, and 2x8GB is fast, but 4+8GB would be slow. Maybe that is not the case on this machine, and it might even be smart enough to decide to run in inteleaved mode for the first 4GB on each stick and then get slow for the last 4GB on the 8GB stick, but I have no idea if it is that smart or not. And yes it is not unusual for a machine to support more memory than documented simply because it was never tested to see if it would work, and hence the documentation simply says it doesn't.
As it stands now this 4 year old machine becomes a pretty cost-effective platform for virtualization:
* Intel Core i5-2410M * 16GB max memory (~$65 per 8GB stick). * 2 SATA ports (built-in and ultrabay) * 2 mSata ports (one could be used for solid state storage) * 1 eSata port. * 1 Gigabit ethernet * 1 SD card
I suspect it has at least an expresscard slot too somewhere. Probably a 34mm (You rarely see the wider 54mm ones anymore).
Canada computers sells refurbished ones for about $300 and I think there are some available in Brampton. Also I saw a few similar refurbished machines on Amazon.
-- Len Sorensen
On 20 July 2015 at 12:05, Lennart Sorensen <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
You might have just made your machine slower by doing that. Maybe. Most modern CPUs are at least dual channel memory controller based, but can only use the dual channel mode to interleave accesses if the memory matches in size. So 2x4GB is fast, and 2x8GB is fast, but 4+8GB would be slow.
Probably not much slower, though. Perhaps just a few percent. This test is rather old but the situation is somewhat similar: <http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/Intel-Core-i7-Nehalem,2057-13.html> -- Scott
On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 01:48:45PM -0400, Scott Allen wrote:
Probably not much slower, though. Perhaps just a few percent. This test is rather old but the situation is somewhat similar: <http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/Intel-Core-i7-Nehalem,2057-13.html>
I remember going from 1 to 2 sticks of ram on a Core 2 Duo machine in the past made the intel graphics (using shared ram) a lot faster. So at least on some CPUs it has made a big difference. -- Len Sorensen
| From: Lennart Sorensen <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> | On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 01:48:45PM -0400, Scott Allen wrote: | > Probably not much slower, though. Perhaps just a few percent. This | > test is rather old but the situation is somewhat similar: | > <http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/Intel-Core-i7-Nehalem,2057-13.html> It's an interesting test. But a bit superficial. DDR memory modules are 64-bits wide (if I remember correctly). So typically, the bottom 3 bits of an address select which byte in a module is being used (this need not be the case). The easy way to interleave memory access between a-power-of-two channels is to use the next low-order address bits as module select. That spreads the load between modules and exploits their parallel operation quite well (because nearby references are common). When you have three channels (as in the baseline for this test), I don't know where you put the third channel in the address space. That's me being lazy: it is surely written up somewhere. But I'd guess that it isn't as useful as the power-of-two case, and the figures seem to support that. It would have been nice to see some synthetic benchmarks in that test. | I remember going from 1 to 2 sticks of ram on a Core 2 Duo machine in | the past made the intel graphics (using shared ram) a lot faster. | So at least on some CPUs it has made a big difference. Perhaps the much-improved memory system of the i series makes a difference? See section 5 of that article. Maybe caches are so big that real memory access is infrequent for many programs. Perhaps page-mode access to RAM captures a lot of the possible advantage of interleaving? In any case, my intuition would have predicted a bigger difference. As always, careful, informed, exploratory measurement trumps intuition when it comes to performance.
On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 06:01:46PM -0400, Alex Volkov wrote:
So I replaced a 4GB memory stick in my Thinkpad T420 with an 8GB one bringing the total amount of available ram to 12GB with maximum of 16GB.Even though Lenovo say that the laptop supports only 8 GB of ram total.
As it stands now this 4 year old machine becomes a pretty cost-effective platform for virtualization:
* Intel Core i5-2410M
I just checked, and apparently that model does to all the vt-x stuff, so yes good for VM handling, and even better, apparently with a bios update it can do aes-ni which can be very handy too. Linux microcode handling might also handle the job if no bios upgrade exists. -- Len Sorensen
On Mon, Jul 20, 2015 at 12:11:29PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
On Sun, Jul 19, 2015 at 06:01:46PM -0400, Alex Volkov wrote:
So I replaced a 4GB memory stick in my Thinkpad T420 with an 8GB one bringing the total amount of available ram to 12GB with maximum of 16GB.Even though Lenovo say that the laptop supports only 8 GB of ram total.
As it stands now this 4 year old machine becomes a pretty cost-effective platform for virtualization:
* Intel Core i5-2410M
I just checked, and apparently that model does to all the vt-x stuff, so yes good for VM handling, and even better, apparently with a bios update it can do aes-ni which can be very handy too. Linux microcode handling might also handle the job if no bios upgrade exists.
It's difficult to judge by specs or benchmarks alone. I have 8-core (AMD FX-8320) and 16GB (DDR3-1333), and it's fast when doing nothing, but it just chokes on load. Curiously, there is no lag with mouse under any condition. And, parallel kernel compile (make -j8) is in the ballpark. So, I don't know what's going on. All I can say is, I'm going with Intel on next machine. -- William
participants (6)
-
Alex Volkov -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
David Collier-Brown -
Lennart Sorensen -
Scott Allen -
William Park