You missed "used laptop" which is still the cheapest option. KWLUG (Kitchener/Waterloo LUG) got them by truck loads. -- William On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 01:38:20PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:

| From: Matt Price <moptop99@gmail.com>

| I'm looking to replace my desktop-based xbmc movie playing box with a much | smaller and more energy-efficient ARM-based DIY project. II'd love to hear | what other people recommend for specs. I'd like to build a system with:

- XBMC is now called Kodi

- it has become semi-mainstream

- it will run under Linux, Windows, Android. I don't know about OSX or iOS (google surely knows)

- there are tonnes of cheap chinese-brand sticks and boxes that even come with it pre-installed.

- From what you said, the amount of storage is going to be an issue. Roughly how much storage do you need?

- Raspberry Pi 2 is great in many ways but adding storage isn't so easy

+ is USB 2 fast enough? If so, an external drive would work (but that requires another box)

+ do you have a network file server where stuff could be stored? (but remember that the Pi's ethernet goes through the USB bottleneck)

- typical chinese boxes don't have internal store either. Some have native ethernet (faster than the Pi). Few if any have USB 3.

Some local optima:

- Raspberry Pi 2. + Well support by community - slow expansion storage - guess: no hope for proprietary streaming sources like Netflix, Shomi, etc + Linux!

- cheap chinese-brand TV stick or box (Android) + cheap, comes with Kodi + can choose models with ethernet + some models have a community of modders (creating other ROMs) but they are limited since key device drivers are closed source. - manufacturers very soon stop releasing new firmware - parts of chips are secret and hence hard to support - Really important: check if Kodi has native drivers for the video playback. I don't really know how to do that (lots of googling). + you can select cost vs features. - 32 vs 64 bit ARM - 1G vs 2G RAM (an anagram of ARM!) - 4G, 8G or 16G flash memory - cheap brand or one with a community

- Nexus Player. Currently on fire-sale ($70) meaning it is a dead product. + runs latest Android (Marshmallow) + run Kodi and is well-supported + runs Netflix including HD (only a few Android devices do HD (for some reason that Netflix hasn't explained)) - won't run Shomi app (for some arbitrary reason) + can accept google "casting" from a phone or tablet

- a random (but carefully selected) Android tablet. Pretty much the same as cheap chinese-brand stick or box.

- a fair number of Windows-based choices that are like the sticks, boxes, or tablets.

For example, right now, Newegg offers this for $139.99 + 4.99 shipping (- $10.00 if you use Visa Checkout and a coupon): <http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883722001> It comes with Windows but should be able to run Linux instead (not enough "disk" for dual booting).

- some little PCs. Deals come and go. Here's one that's almost sold out: <http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=7_1203_1157&item_id=069768> This is a real PC and will run ordinary Linux distros just fine. It includes a 500G HD. And a power switch. And probably a remote. Takes real power, but nothing like a desktop. If you want control, this is the easiest path.

- cheap bare ARM boards from chinese brands. Too much of a circus for me to recommend. Surely there is good value somewhere there (Banana Pi? Cubie Board?) but likely too much adventure if you only care about the result (TV!).

| - relatively simple and manageable OS (Raspbian has been nice on my old RP | rev b)

If you want to be in control, it is hard to beat the Pi without going to a full PC.

| - some kind of hobbyist board, raspbi or beaglebone or whatever seems best;

That sounds like you want control. Lots of these ARM things have pain-points. For example, the beaglebones didn't do FullHD (hardware limitation). Most have closed drivers for video. Codecs are a pain. Bootloaders are all different so that a generic Linux distro cannot work (yet).

| - cheapest possible large ssd drive

Most don't take SSDs (or hard drives) except as externals (USB or NAS). If you find your media collection grows, SSD is bound to be too small or expensive. SSDs are great for the OS but don't really have an advantage for videos. Since videos are accessed mostly-sequentially, the seek time of a hard drive is not a problem.

Some little PCs come with room for a 2.5" drive. You can get 2.5" hard drives up to 1TB. If you need more than 1TB, you need 3.5" drives, something little computers don't accommodate.

| - a power button (!)

Not really needed for the really low power ones.

| - a wireless keyboard or other control device

Easy to add via USB or bluetooth.

| - HDMI out

At FullHD. Too early for good UltraHD support.

| - some kind of a box to hold everything together (likely self-designed out | of some very cheap scrap materials) | - power source that can drive all these pieces | - as little cost as possible --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org http://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

Done any of the media centres come with logic for driving an external digital box? I use Rogers, and they're slowly moving all the free channels onto encrypted digital., so despite them being "free", they're only available via the Rogers digital box. --dave On 29/12/15 06:40 AM, Marcelo Cavalcante wrote:

You said you had a RaspberryPi running Raspbian, that is a full linux distro. You could try openelec, that is a customized distro made only to run a media center with xbmc/kodi. After the boot, the only X application you will see running is the media center.

On Dec 29, 2015 5:46 AM, "William Park" <opengeometry@yahoo.ca <mailto:opengeometry@yahoo.ca>> wrote:

You missed "used laptop" which is still the cheapest option. KWLUG (Kitchener/Waterloo LUG) got them by truck loads. -- William

On Mon, Dec 28, 2015 at 01:38:20PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote: > | From: Matt Price <moptop99@gmail.com <mailto:moptop99@gmail.com>> > > | I'm looking to replace my desktop-based xbmc movie playing box with a much > | smaller and more energy-efficient ARM-based DIY project. II'd love to hear > | what other people recommend for specs. I'd like to build a system with: > > - XBMC is now called Kodi > > - it has become semi-mainstream > > - it will run under Linux, Windows, Android. I don't know about OSX > or iOS (google surely knows) > > - there are tonnes of cheap chinese-brand sticks and boxes that even > come with it pre-installed. > > - From what you said, the amount of storage is going to be an issue. > Roughly how much storage do you need? > > - Raspberry Pi 2 is great in many ways but adding storage isn't so easy > > + is USB 2 fast enough? If so, an external drive would work (but > that requires another box) > > + do you have a network file server where stuff could be stored? > (but remember that the Pi's ethernet goes through the USB bottleneck) > > - typical chinese boxes don't have internal store either. Some have > native ethernet (faster than the Pi). Few if any have USB 3. > > Some local optima: > > - Raspberry Pi 2. > + Well support by community > - slow expansion storage > - guess: no hope for proprietary streaming sources like Netflix, > Shomi, etc > + Linux! > > - cheap chinese-brand TV stick or box (Android) > + cheap, comes with Kodi > + can choose models with ethernet > + some models have a community of modders (creating other ROMs) > but they are limited since key device drivers are closed source. > - manufacturers very soon stop releasing new firmware > - parts of chips are secret and hence hard to support > - Really important: check if Kodi has native drivers for the video playback. > I don't really know how to do that (lots of googling). > + you can select cost vs features. > - 32 vs 64 bit ARM > - 1G vs 2G RAM (an anagram of ARM!) > - 4G, 8G or 16G flash memory > - cheap brand or one with a community > > - Nexus Player. Currently on fire-sale ($70) meaning it is a dead product. > + runs latest Android (Marshmallow) > + run Kodi and is well-supported > + runs Netflix including HD (only a few Android devices do HD (for > some reason that Netflix hasn't explained)) > - won't run Shomi app (for some arbitrary reason) > + can accept google "casting" from a phone or tablet > > - a random (but carefully selected) Android tablet. Pretty much the > same as cheap chinese-brand stick or box. > > - a fair number of Windows-based choices that are like the sticks, > boxes, or tablets. > > For example, right now, Newegg offers this for $139.99 + 4.99 > shipping (- $10.00 if you use Visa Checkout and a coupon): > <http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883722001> > It comes with Windows but should be able to run Linux instead > (not enough "disk" for dual booting). > > - some little PCs. Deals come and go. > Here's one that's almost sold out: > <http://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=7_1203_1157&item_id=069768> > This is a real PC and will run ordinary Linux distros just fine. > It includes a 500G HD. And a power switch. And probably a remote. > Takes real power, but nothing like a desktop. > If you want control, this is the easiest path. > > - cheap bare ARM boards from chinese brands. Too much of a circus for > me to recommend. Surely there is good value somewhere there (Banana > Pi? Cubie Board?) but likely too much adventure if you only care > about the result (TV!). > > | - relatively simple and manageable OS (Raspbian has been nice on my old RP > | rev b) > > If you want to be in control, it is hard to beat the Pi without going > to a full PC. > > | - some kind of hobbyist board, raspbi or beaglebone or whatever seems best; > > That sounds like you want control. Lots of these ARM things have > pain-points. For example, the beaglebones didn't do FullHD (hardware > limitation). Most have closed drivers for video. Codecs are a pain. > Bootloaders are all different so that a generic Linux distro cannot work > (yet). > > | - cheapest possible large ssd drive > > Most don't take SSDs (or hard drives) except as externals (USB or NAS). > If you find your media collection grows, SSD is bound to be too small > or expensive. SSDs are great for the OS but don't really have an > advantage for videos. Since videos are accessed mostly-sequentially, > the seek time of a hard drive is not a problem. > > Some little PCs come with room for a 2.5" drive. You can get 2.5" > hard drives up to 1TB. If you need more than 1TB, you need 3.5" > drives, something little computers don't accommodate. > > | - a power button (!) > > Not really needed for the really low power ones. > > | - a wireless keyboard or other control device > > Easy to add via USB or bluetooth. > > | - HDMI out > > At FullHD. Too early for good UltraHD support. > > | - some kind of a box to hold everything together (likely self-designed out > | of some very cheap scrap materials) > | - power source that can drive all these pieces > | - as little cost as possible > --- > Talk Mailing List > talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org> > http://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org> http://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org http://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 04:12:57PM -0500, Kevin Cozens wrote:

On 15-12-29 03:47 PM, David Collier-Brown wrote:

...

Done any of the media centres come with logic for driving an external digital box? I use Rogers, and they're slowly moving all the free channels onto encrypted digital., so despite them being "free", they're only available via the Rogers digital box.

Rogers finished dropping all their analog channels some time ago. The only way to get channels is to use one of their decoder boxes. I found the free decoder box unreliable so I disconnected it. As I could no longer tune any channels I have let my subscription to schedules direct (TV guide listings service) lapse.

I still have MythTV installed to play DVD's. You can tell MythTV the name of an external program to use to change channels. There is a device called an IR Blaster (IIRC) that could be used to send IR codes to a remote device (e.g. cable tuner) to handle channel changes. I never tried it. Since I disconnect the free cable tuner box from Rogers I no longer have a need to get one to see if it would have worked.

Well I have one rogers 4250 using firewire to tune and another 4642 using an ir blaster (since rogers has totally fucked up firewire on the 4642. It responds to all commands correctly, and does nothing it is told. You can tell it to turn on, then ask if it is on and it will say yes, then tell it to turn off and ask it the state and it will report off, and it has no affect on the actual state of the box. Very weird and no other cable company has this problem with that model). -- Len Sorensen

On Wed, Dec 30, 2015 at 12:13:41PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:

This is an excellent question.

Rogers is dropping analog a bit at a time. At our house, they've dropped all channels above 20 except for 26 (old NewsWorld) and several things below 20.

We have no analog channels left at all.

Rogers really wants you to use their PVR. Inferior to MythTV is so many ways.

No thanks. I am sticking with mythtv.

Some people use IR blasters to let MythTV switch channels on Rogers set-top boxes. That always seemed nasty to me, mostly because it seems unreliable. Because it is "open loop" the computer has no way of knowing if it worked.

Lennart's MythTV setup used to use firewire with Rogers boxes, but that became encrypted or worse, so he stopped. But I suspect that it could still be used for more reliable channel changing. I just never got around to investigating.

I only stopped recording through firewire, I still tune through it and it reports status and is VERY reliable. The recording is now through an HD-PVR (not the HD-PVR2 that is now available since it does not have linux drivers last I checked). My new box that uses an ir blaster has so far been reliable. I use the ir blaster that is in the HD-PVR.

At some point we may drop Rogers and just go "over the top". Since we are pretty careful to only do authorized things (i.e. no piracy), we'll still be subject to the indignity and inconvenience of arbitrary platforms.

Where you live you should be able to get reasonable amount of stuff over the air (HD Digital, no DRM). Not an option for us.

-- Len Sorensen

On 01/08/2016 03:26 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:

All analog has gone, except for 3 and 15 which show a fish tank. I've used their analog (with a gap) since 1975 or so.

Well, at least you have the important channels. ;-) I haven't watched analog in years.

On 8 January 2016 at 07:51, David Collier-Brown <davec-b@rogers.com> wrote:

I like the fish tank, but switching to encrypted digital instead of plain digital is just a scheme to make me retire my MythTV in favor of their tied PVR offering.

I think it's a money maker for them... If I want to get any HD channels I have to pay an extra $7/month for their HD box otherwise you get a box that only does SD. If they didn't encrypt then you could just plug the cable directly into your TV and get all the HD channels (though the on-demand wouldn't work). I find it silly that I pay for down-sampled SD channels that come for free OTA in 1080p but I can pay extra to get the full version. Another funny thing, the on-demand content isn't encrypted. You can find what other people are watching on-demand with the digital tuner in your TV. The only issue you're at the mercy of them pausing, rewinding, or stopping whatever they're watching.

On Fri, Jan 08, 2016 at 07:51:35AM -0500, David Collier-Brown wrote:

I like the fish tank, but switching to encrypted digital instead of plain digital is just a scheme to make me retire my MythTV in favor of their tied PVR offering.

I am sure we are not that important to rogers. On the other hand freeing up bandwidth from the analog channels for more channels and more cable modem bandwidth is useful to rogers. Now if they can get more people to buy their pvr to replace a VCR, I am sure rogers doesn't mind that. I suspect for most people of course, spending $500 on the rogers pvr that has 8 tuners and 1TB storage, or spending $300 on the HD box + $300 on the HDPVR to get one tuner to work with your mythtv box, well I just think most people go with the rogers box option. Not me, but most people. I don't think mythtv users were ever much of a concern to rogers. -- Len Sorensen

On Fri, Jan 08, 2016 at 10:02:54AM -0500, Alvin Starr wrote:

I was under the impression that the new encoding schemes that Rogers is using is not all that great.

I moved to an Antenna and OTT for my viewing needs something like 10 years ago so other than seeing the lack of quality my in-laws are getting I can't attest to the quality of Rogers.

I don't off hand remember what the Bell compression was but I believe that it was better than Rogers.

Not sure what they use. Bell uses MPEG4 for HD channels, but I think SD channels are still MPEG2 on satelite. Fibe would be MPEG4. Rogers still uses MPEG2 (pretty heavily compressed) for digital cable (which I guess is pretty much all cable they do now).

I was involved with a couple of startup OTT TV services a few years back and I was never all that happy about the trade off between bandwidth and quality. The standard broadcast TV stream at 1080i sucks back 20Mbits of network bandwidth.

Well apparently 256-QAM can do about 38Mbps in 6Mhz, which is better than ATSC does, so cable companies can put more subchannels into one 6MHz band than ATSC can, and by compressing extra over what the broadcaster did, they can make room for even more channels. It seems ATSC 3.0 some day in the future would be able to have similar bandwidth to 256-QAM, and would also switch from MPEG2 to H.265, saving more bandwidth, making room for 4k broadcasts. Would of course be incompatible with all existing tuners. -- Len Sorensen

On Fri, Jan 08, 2016 at 01:53:49PM -0500, James Knott wrote:

I could be wrong, but I believe the newer PVRs support MPEG4. Also, we'll have to see what happens when IPTV arrives.

They do, but the old ones (of which there are a lot of users) do not. Breaking the 4200/4250 and 8300 would not go over well. -- Len Sorensen

On Fri, Jan 08, 2016 at 05:13:56PM -0500, James Knott wrote:

There are a couple of ways of handling this. IPTV can be MPEG4 exclusively, since the older boxes can't handle it anyway. Also, with switched video, you can get the stream your PVR can use or, with all the extra bandwidth freed up from analog, just have both versions on the cable. This sort of thing is already happening, where you can get both HD and SD on the same channel number.

Certainly, and my understanding is that the IPTV will be mpeg4. Well as for HD and SD on the same channel, that I believe is actually a trick in the cable box, where the HD boxes are told to tune the HD equivalant stream if you select the SD channel number. Both streams exist (well maybe, the switching could mean they don't at any given time) and the box just has to tune the right stream. -- Len Sorensen

Mildly on-topic: Has anyone here tried ​ Zaz​eem? - Evan On Jan 8, 2016, at 11:15, Lennart Sorensen <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:

On Fri, Jan 08, 2016 at 07:51:35AM -0500, David Collier-Brown wrote:

...

I like the fish tank, but switching to encrypted digital instead of plain digital is just a scheme to make me retire my MythTV in favor of their tied PVR offering.

I am sure we are not that important to rogers.

On the other hand freeing up bandwidth from the analog channels for more channels and more cable modem bandwidth is useful to rogers.

Now if they can get more people to buy their pvr to replace a VCR, I am sure rogers doesn't mind that.

I suspect for most people of course, spending $500 on the rogers pvr that has 8 tuners and 1TB storage, or spending $300 on the HD box + $300 on the HDPVR to get one tuner to work with your mythtv box, well I just think most people go with the rogers box option. Not me, but most people. I don't think mythtv users were ever much of a concern to rogers.

I wrote them and asked what they're offering, and why I would care. I *DETEST* marketers who assume I know what XYZZY mean. --dave On 09/01/16 09:57 PM, David Collier-Brown wrote:

No, It's not really clear what they're offering. Channels, yes. How, no! --dave

On 09/01/16 02:52 PM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:

...

Mildly on-topic:

Has anyone here tried

​ Zaz​eem?

- Evan

On Jan 8, 2016, at 11:15, Lennart Sorensen <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca <mailto:lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca>> wrote:

On Fri, Jan 08, 2016 at 07:51:35AM -0500, David Collier-Brown wrote:

I like the fish tank, but switching to encrypted digital instead of plain digital is just a scheme to make me retire my MythTV in favor of their tied PVR offering.

I am sure we are not that important to rogers.

On the other hand freeing up bandwidth from the analog channels for more channels and more cable modem bandwidth is useful to rogers.

Now if they can get more people to buy their pvr to replace a VCR, I am sure rogers doesn't mind that.

I suspect for most people of course, spending $500 on the rogers pvr that has 8 tuners and 1TB storage, or spending $300 on the HD box + $300 on the HDPVR to get one tuner to work with your mythtv box, well I just think most people go with the rogers box option. Not me, but most people. I don't think mythtv users were ever much of a concern to rogers.

--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain

--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

-- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain

On Tue 29 Dec 2015 05:46 -0500, William Park wrote:

You missed "used laptop" which is still the cheapest option. KWLUG (Kitchener/Waterloo LUG) got them by truck loads.

Are those offered to the public for purchase?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1

KWLUG (Kitchener/Waterloo LUG) got [laptops] by truck loads.

Actually, it's Computer Recycling at The Working Centre that's got laptops by the truckload. KWLUG members have been refurbishing them for CR, but aside from some personnel overlap (some KWLUG members are also staff at The Working Centre) and some venue sharing (the place where KWLUG holds its meetings is part of The Working Centre) there's no affiliation at all. Next Laptop Repair Session is on Saturday, 16 January 2016, if anyone wants to come out and help: http://www.kwlug.org/node/1014 Refurbished laptops sell for anywhere between $15 to $60, as-is. - --Bob. http://www.theworkingcentre.org/computer-recycling/2318-computer-recycling Bob Jonkman <bjonkman@sobac.com> Phone: +1-519-635-9413 SOBAC Microcomputer Services http://sobac.com/sobac/ Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting GnuPG Fngrprnt:04F7 742B 8F54 C40A E115 26C2 B912 89B0 D2CC E5EA On 29/12/15 05:46 AM, William Park wrote:

You missed "used laptop" which is still the cheapest option. KWLUG (Kitchener/Waterloo LUG) got them by truck loads.

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