
If replies seem patchy, we've just had a bunch of people - mostly Yahoo and Rogers users - auto-kicked from the list due to DMARC. This is an ongoing pain for list admins. The reason given by Yahoo is this: https://help.yahoo.com/kb/postmaster/SLN7253.html Yeah, they're advising Reply-To mungeing as an industry standard. Joy! cheers, Stewart

Stewart C. Russell wrote:
If replies seem patchy, we've just had a bunch of people - mostly Yahoo and Rogers users - auto-kicked from the list due to DMARC. This is an ongoing pain for list admins. ...
There's a chance they're actually trying to lighten their load by pushing mailing-list traffic away. It's not like lists are a new thing, or the best practices for running them something determined this decade. Time for folk to get a real ISP if the free or the free-with-Internet-connection services cut back to giving you what you're paying for. -- Anthony de Boer

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Stewart wrote:
The reason given by Yahoo is this:
That's got it completely backwards. For a mailing list the "Sender" is the list address, "From" is the person who actually wrote the message[1]. And if "Reply-to" munging must be done, then common (bad) practice is to set it to the list address. I wouldn't take any pains to accommodate such a badly broken mail provider, especially on a technical list like this where people understand the problem. I run a number of mailing lists, and on the non-technical lists I do mung "Reply-to" to the list address because the subscribers to those lists expect that behaviour. My preference is to mung "Reply-to" only when the message author has not explicitly set it, respecting the author's intent. As far as I know, only Listserv can do this. Sadly, neither Mailman nor Mercury Mail have that degree of finesse. I'm sure everyone has seen this and the posts leading up to it: http://marc.merlins.org/netrants/reply-to-still-harmful.html - --Bob. [1] http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc5322#section-3.6.2 - -- Bob Jonkman <bjonkman@sobac.com> Phone: +1-519-635-9413 SOBAC Microcomputer Services http://sobac.com/sobac/ Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting GnuPG Fngrprnt:04F7 742B 8F54 C40A E115 26C2 B912 89B0 D2CC E5EA On 2016-06-11 11:19 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote:
If replies seem patchy, we've just had a bunch of people - mostly Yahoo and Rogers users - auto-kicked from the list due to DMARC. This is an ongoing pain for list admins. The reason given by Yahoo is this:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/postmaster/SLN7253.html
Yeah, they're advising Reply-To mungeing as an industry standard. Joy!
cheers, Stewart --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
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On 2016-06-11 01:39 PM, Bob Jonkman wrote:
That's got it completely backwards. For a mailing list the "Sender" is the list address, "From" is the person who actually wrote the message
SPF/DKIM has an RFC too now (7489), so if the two are at cross-purposes, someone wasn't thinking straight.
I wouldn't take any pains to accommodate such a badly broken mail provider, especially on a technical list like this where people understand the problem.
Several of this list's more technical and frequent posters were kicked off by Yahoo's action. One should not have to run one's own mail server in order to participate here.
I'm sure everyone has seen this and the posts leading up to it: http://marc.merlins.org/netrants/reply-to-still-harmful.html
That was originally written years ago, back when spam was almost nonexistant. E-mail has changed a lot over the years, and will keep changing. cheers, Stewart

On 11/06/16 11:19 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote:
If replies seem patchy, we've just had a bunch of people - mostly Yahoo and Rogers users - auto-kicked from the list due to DMARC. This is an ongoing pain for list admins. The reason given by Yahoo is this:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/postmaster/SLN7253.html
Yeah, they're advising Reply-To mungeing as an industry standard. Joy!
I host a few Mailman lists and this is a never-ending source of problems for me. It's not just a Yahoo/Rogers issue. Rogers uses Yahoo behind the scenes anyway. It's also a problem with anything hosted by Microsoft, for example, Hotmail, Outlook.com, MSN, and Sympatico email accounts, though Microsoft's behaviour is even worse. The domains in question have SPF and DKIM set up and pass the usual tests. The IP address for the server isn't on any RBLs. Microsoft will accept the message from the list but it will NOT deliver the message anywhere. I proved this by doing the following. * Created a fresh outlook.com account. * Subscribed that outlook.com account to a test mailing list that was configured identically to the other lists that I host. * Sent a message to the test list as another subscriber. * Confirmed that all non-Microsoft subscribers to the test list received the test message. * Looked in the server's logs and saw that Microsoft accepted the message for delivery so as far as my server is concerned, it's job is done. * Looked in the fresh outlook.com account and the message is nowhere to be found, not in the inbox, not in junk. I'm sure that violates an RFC. If you accept the message for delivery, you MUST deliver it somewhere, even if it is the junk folder. As far as Mailman is concerned, there was no bounce and everything is fine but the subscriber will never see messages. For the outlook.com subscriber to see the messages from the list, I did the following. * Added an address book entry for the list's address. * Repeated the process above. * Saw that the message had been delivered to the inbox. Sometimes, the message will still get caught in outlook.com's junk filter and will end up in the junk folder. At least it is in a place that can be found. To work around that, create a rule that never sends messages from the list to junk. This is obviously a problem for non-technical users. They simply do not understand any of this and it all becomes too complicated for them. Most users do not know how to add anything to their address book or create message filters/rules and they think the list server is broken and should be "fixed" when in fact, it's their email provider. I never see these issues with subscribers who have Gmail accounts, by the way. Email is dying a slow death. The alternatives, like Twitter direct messaging, Slack (ugh!), WhatsApp (double ugh!), and various instant messaging schemes are worse. Those will eventually be polluted by spammers, too. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay + 1 647-778-8696

On Sat, Jun 11, 2016 at 5:24 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY <clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> wrote:
On 11/06/16 11:19 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote:
If replies seem patchy, we've just had a bunch of people - mostly Yahoo and Rogers users - auto-kicked from the list due to DMARC. This is an ongoing pain for list admins. The reason given by Yahoo is this:
snip
Email is dying a slow death. The alternatives, like Twitter direct messaging, Slack (ugh!), WhatsApp (double ugh!), and various instant messaging schemes are worse. Those will eventually be polluted by spammers, too.
Good point Cliff. Question though - - - telephone is really just useless (voicemail with a 4 day return time is something I refuse to use), and with emails becoming less than 'good' what do you see as a replacement for serious communication? Regards Dee

On 06/11/2016 06:24 PM, CLIFFORD ILKAY wrote:
This is obviously a problem for non-technical users. They simply do not understand any of this and it all becomes too complicated for them. Most users do not know how to add anything to their address book or create message filters/rules and they think the list server is broken and should be "fixed" when in fact, it's their email provider.
Are you referring to the address book on the server? That is on Yahoo etc.?

On Sat, 11 Jun 2016 18:24:43 -0400 CLIFFORD ILKAY <clifford_ilkay@dinamis.com> wrote: <snip>
This is obviously a problem for non-technical users. They simply do not understand any of this and it all becomes too complicated for them. Most users do not know how to add anything to their address book or create message filters/rules and they think the list server is broken and should be "fixed" when in fact, it's their email provider. I never see these issues with subscribers who have Gmail accounts, by the way. Email is dying a slow death. The alternatives, like Twitter direct messaging, Slack (ugh!), WhatsApp (double ugh!), and various instant messaging schemes are worse. Those will eventually be polluted by spammers, too.
Would like to start my reply by saying that I received my first spam in 1987, from CompuServ and that imnsho email will never die, it is too well suited to human nature. These days, I am trying all sorts of new ways of trapping new spam bots and figuring out how to get more spam, more data, more bots. Huge multi nationals like Google etc do not share their data To understand the small spam problem in 2016, one has to understand the differences in modern email. Mass email providers like @gmail.com @yahoo.com @hotmail.com are hard/difficult to block - and they know that - so some of them, like yahoo.com for example, does not spend as much money as say google.com does - to fight abuse. If @dinamis.com would dare to send spam - @dinamis.com would simply end up in a rbl Our rbl's commonly block at least 100 yahoo servers for each single google.com server and the blocks last anything from an hour to weeks, depending if they stop their spam Interestingly, if Google is blocked for spam they bounce back to their user with : technical error at the receiver - this is kinda evil as it implies that their is a problem at the receiving server, when Google full well knows that their is an admin restriction due to Google being abusive... branding I guess, users have to be kept as mushrooms for as long as possible so that the large guys can dominate and take over the world :) Andre

On 06/11/2016 11:19 AM, Stewart C. Russell wrote:
If replies seem patchy, we've just had a bunch of people - mostly Yahoo and Rogers users - auto-kicked from the list due to DMARC. This is an ongoing pain for list admins. The reason given by Yahoo is this:
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/postmaster/SLN7253.html
Yeah, they're advising Reply-To mungeing as an industry standard. Joy!
cheers, Stewart --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Running a mail server for any period of time and you will be offending someone's email policy. There are people out there who still believe that its OK to run an open relay and anybody who uses some ORBS type of service is breaking the law. I have some empathy for the likes of Yahoo, Hotmail/MS and google. Combined they have something like a billion users. The most I ever had to deal with was a few thousand mail users and at times that made me want to turn off mail and go back to clay tablets. Of those millions of users most of them are amazingly unsophisticated so they need to make a number of choices to try and satisfy the largest customer base. After over 35 years of running mail servers I no longer provide nearly the feature set that I once did and a few years ago I gave up on running any public list servers altogether. DMARC/DKIM is also more about senders insuring that other mail servers do not masquerade as them and that is a sentiment that I can get behind with 90+% of bounce back messages being caused by spammers using others senders addresses. This of course can have the side effect of breaking things like mail lists. Spamming should be a capitol crime. A few dead spammers hanging in the street could help to clean things up quickly. But that may be just a tad of an over reaction on my part. -- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
participants (8)
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ac@main.me
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Alvin Starr
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Anthony de Boer
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Bob Jonkman
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CLIFFORD ILKAY
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James Knott
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o1bigtenor
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Stewart C. Russell