Re: [GTALUG] Specific question about mailing list management
It was over a year ago and I believe that it was a case of someone who could not follow the unsubscribe message at the bottom or did not read that far and pushed the message to one of the RBL providers. Another hint is to stick something in the mail message that will not get scrubbed by anonamizers if someone does post to an RBL. At least you can then find the offending client and remove them. Its a pain to have someone on your list that is pushing your messages to RBLs and not be able to remove them because the information you got from the RBL has all the usual tracking information removed. On 07/25/2018 09:48 AM, ac via talk wrote:
Hi Alvin,
long time :)
Have you been black listed by an RBL for a mailing list sending verification emails?
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:26:04 -0400 Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Another thing is to make sure you have a valid email address by sending an activation message. Lots of people will provide bogus addresses either deliberately or accidentally. You also need to monitor your outgoing email or track the bounce backs for email addresses that go away.
One of the problems you will face is that conventional wisdom is that responding to an un-subscribe button is just a way that the spammers validate your email address. Also People will just tag the messages as spam causing you to get black-listed.
Every few years I get blacklisted because I have someone running a small mail-list related to a Knitting e-commerce web site. The site admin is a good friend and I know they are very careful about the mail addresses in the list but bad emails still leak in.
On 07/25/2018 02:06 AM, ac via talk wrote:
Hi Evan,
The quick answer is that there is no agreement on best practise for unsub messages, the amount of verification (and time span of) and a number of other abuse related issues.
Here is what I personally (wrongly or correctly) do: Subscription (Opt in message / Confirm email message - 1 per day max three days) Unsubscribe - no message - just unsubscribe
never send any email from noreply@ I am not Google or Microsoft (and even the dentist around the corner is now doing that *sigh*)
When subscriber does anything on a link (Web) - send a confirm your request email
hth
Andre
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 00:30:58 -0400 Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hi all.
This question is asked of anyone who administers a mailing list about policies. I'm setting up a campaign-based mailing system using phplist (as opposed to a forum-type MLM such as Mailman) and I'm interested to know what policies or best practices you might have in place to address this specific question:
When a list subscriber goes to a link to change their preferences or unsubscribe, from what email address does the confirmation (for changes) or "sorry to see you go" message (for unsubscriptions) originate.
Does such administrative email come from: a) an identifiable member or the organization's staff? b) a postmaster-type alias? c) a do-not-reply address?
Any feedback is appreciated.
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Alvin Starr || land: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
The dangers of doing this wrong now go beyond RBLs in the era of CASL and GDPR. Organizations are being fined. One thing that is now part of best practices (ours at least) is to have as the very first paragraph of all mailings, a "You are receiving this because [...]" statement along with references to the list management and unsubscribe links below. On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 at 09:56, Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
It was over a year ago and I believe that it was a case of someone who could not follow the unsubscribe message at the bottom or did not read that far and pushed the message to one of the RBL providers.
Another hint is to stick something in the mail message that will not get scrubbed by anonamizers if someone does post to an RBL. At least you can then find the offending client and remove them. Its a pain to have someone on your list that is pushing your messages to RBLs and not be able to remove them because the information you got from the RBL has all the usual tracking information removed.
On 07/25/2018 09:48 AM, ac via talk wrote:
Hi Alvin,
long time :)
Have you been black listed by an RBL for a mailing list sending verification emails?
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:26:04 -0400 Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Another thing is to make sure you have a valid email address by sending an activation message. Lots of people will provide bogus addresses either deliberately or accidentally. You also need to monitor your outgoing email or track the bounce backs for email addresses that go away.
One of the problems you will face is that conventional wisdom is that responding to an un-subscribe button is just a way that the spammers validate your email address. Also People will just tag the messages as spam causing you to get black-listed.
Every few years I get blacklisted because I have someone running a small mail-list related to a Knitting e-commerce web site. The site admin is a good friend and I know they are very careful about the mail addresses in the list but bad emails still leak in.
On 07/25/2018 02:06 AM, ac via talk wrote:
Hi Evan,
The quick answer is that there is no agreement on best practise for unsub messages, the amount of verification (and time span of) and a number of other abuse related issues.
Here is what I personally (wrongly or correctly) do: Subscription (Opt in message / Confirm email message - 1 per day max three days) Unsubscribe - no message - just unsubscribe
never send any email from noreply@ I am not Google or Microsoft (and even the dentist around the corner is now doing that *sigh*)
When subscriber does anything on a link (Web) - send a confirm your request email
hth
Andre
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 00:30:58 -0400 Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hi all.
This question is asked of anyone who administers a mailing list about policies. I'm setting up a campaign-based mailing system using phplist (as opposed to a forum-type MLM such as Mailman) and I'm interested to know what policies or best practices you might have in place to address this specific question:
When a list subscriber goes to a link to change their preferences or unsubscribe, from what email address does the confirmation (for changes) or "sorry to see you go" message (for unsubscriptions) originate.
Does such administrative email come from: a) an identifiable member or the organization's staff? b) a postmaster-type alias? c) a do-not-reply address?
Any feedback is appreciated.
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Alvin Starr || land: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch or @el56
That assumes that the users are reading the messages and are interested in taking action to get themselves removed. Which is why you want a tag in the message that you can use to track back. That and logs of all your subscribe an unsubscribe actions. On 07/25/2018 10:08 AM, Evan Leibovitch wrote:
The dangers of doing this wrong now go beyond RBLs in the era of CASL and GDPR. Organizations are being fined.
One thing that is now part of best practices (ours at least) is to have as the very first paragraph of all mailings, a "You are receiving this because [...]" statement along with references to the list management and unsubscribe links below.
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 at 09:56, Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:
It was over a year ago and I believe that it was a case of someone who could not follow the unsubscribe message at the bottom or did not read that far and pushed the message to one of the RBL providers.
Another hint is to stick something in the mail message that will not get scrubbed by anonamizers if someone does post to an RBL. At least you can then find the offending client and remove them. Its a pain to have someone on your list that is pushing your messages to RBLs and not be able to remove them because the information you got from the RBL has all the usual tracking information removed.
On 07/25/2018 09:48 AM, ac via talk wrote: > Hi Alvin, > > long time :) > > Have you been black listed by an RBL for a mailing list sending > verification emails? > > On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:26:04 -0400 > Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote: > >> Another thing is to make sure you have a valid email address by >> sending an activation message. >> Lots of people will provide bogus addresses either deliberately or >> accidentally. >> You also need to monitor your outgoing email or track the bounce >> backs for email addresses that go away. >> >> One of the problems you will face is that conventional wisdom is that >> responding to an un-subscribe button is just a way that the spammers >> validate your email address. >> Also People will just tag the messages as spam causing you to get >> black-listed. >> >> Every few years I get blacklisted because I have someone running a >> small mail-list related to a Knitting e-commerce web site. >> The site admin is a good friend and I know they are very careful >> about the mail addresses in the list but bad emails still leak in. >> >> >> >> On 07/25/2018 02:06 AM, ac via talk wrote: >>> Hi Evan, >>> >>> The quick answer is that there is no agreement on best practise for >>> unsub messages, the amount of verification (and time span of) and a >>> number of other abuse related issues. >>> >>> Here is what I personally (wrongly or correctly) do: >>> Subscription (Opt in message / Confirm email message - 1 per day max >>> three days) >>> Unsubscribe - no message - just unsubscribe >>> >>> never send any email from noreply@ I am not Google or Microsoft >>> (and even the dentist around the corner is now doing that *sigh*) >>> >>> When subscriber does anything on a link (Web) - send a confirm your >>> request email >>> >>> hth >>> >>> Andre >>> >>> >>> On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 00:30:58 -0400 >>> Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all. >>>> >>>> This question is asked of anyone who administers a mailing list >>>> about policies. I'm setting up a campaign-based mailing system >>>> using phplist (as opposed to a forum-type MLM such as Mailman) and >>>> I'm interested to know what policies or best practices you might >>>> have in place to address this specific question: >>>> >>>> When a list subscriber goes to a link to change their preferences >>>> or unsubscribe, from what email address does the confirmation (for >>>> changes) or "sorry to see you go" message (for unsubscriptions) >>>> originate. >>>> >>>> Does such administrative email come from: >>>> a) an identifiable member or the organization's staff? >>>> b) a postmaster-type alias? >>>> c) a do-not-reply address? >>>> >>>> Any feedback is appreciated. >>>> >>> --- >>> Talk Mailing List >>> talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org> >>> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk > --- > Talk Mailing List > talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org> > https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Alvin Starr || land: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net <mailto:alvin@netvel.net> ||
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch or @el56
-- Alvin Starr || land: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 at 10:14, Alvin Starr <alvin@netvel.net> wrote:
That assumes that the users are reading the messages and are interested in taking action to get themselves removed. Which is why you want a tag in the message that you can use to track back. That and logs of all your subscribe an unsubscribe actions.
This is why we're using phplist rather than mailman, which does both of those things. - Evan
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:08:47 -0400 Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
The dangers of doing this wrong now go beyond RBLs in the era of CASL and GDPR. Organizations are being fined.
One thing that is now part of best practices (ours at least) is to have as the very first paragraph of all mailings, a "You are receiving this because [...]" statement along with references to the list management and unsubscribe links below.
Evan, My manual system has an unsubscribe paragraph in the template. I had an interesting incident a couple of years ago. Someone emailed and asked to be removed from my list. I emailed back that they were not on my list. It turned out they had an email alias that was on my list. It helps if a human keeps an eye on this stuff. I don't think I have had problems with the authorities. I have unsubscribe instructions, and two email addresses with notes on how often they are checked. -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca jhowardgibson@gmail.com http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
hmm, no RBL should not list anyone for sending reasonable mailing list verification emails... btw - I am still struggling to know what the 'best practise' should be... (how many verification emails are reasonable and over what period of time?) anyway, among the varied types of RBL the two main categories are reporting and non reporting, where the reporting RBL sends you and abuse (with the info stripped) a non reporting RBL sends you nothing. if you did receive stripped out headers, from a reporting RBL (like for example SpamCop) you will still have date & time, server name and various other bits that could help you find it in your logs, depending on the RBL, you can also contact the complainant and request additional info. Often, if it is not a spamtrap or part of anything else, then they should help you, as you could not have given them any reason not to :) non reporting RBLs which are non automatic are the worst, more so if they are dnsbl or black holes. (like the currents and the chronics: webiron dnsbl.ascams etc etc) - the easiest RBLS to work with are the automatics (like rbldns.ru etc) either way ymmv :) btw - phplist & mailman tags are also obtused, depending on service... afaik spamcop does not obtuse phplist or mailman tags although some others do - similarly, many abuse@ do not accept munged reports... On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:56:11 -0400 Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
It was over a year ago and I believe that it was a case of someone who could not follow the unsubscribe message at the bottom or did not read that far and pushed the message to one of the RBL providers.
Another hint is to stick something in the mail message that will not get scrubbed by anonamizers if someone does post to an RBL. At least you can then find the offending client and remove them. Its a pain to have someone on your list that is pushing your messages to RBLs and not be able to remove them because the information you got from the RBL has all the usual tracking information removed.
On 07/25/2018 09:48 AM, ac via talk wrote:
Hi Alvin,
long time :)
Have you been black listed by an RBL for a mailing list sending verification emails?
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:26:04 -0400 Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Another thing is to make sure you have a valid email address by sending an activation message. Lots of people will provide bogus addresses either deliberately or accidentally. You also need to monitor your outgoing email or track the bounce backs for email addresses that go away.
One of the problems you will face is that conventional wisdom is that responding to an un-subscribe button is just a way that the spammers validate your email address. Also People will just tag the messages as spam causing you to get black-listed.
Every few years I get blacklisted because I have someone running a small mail-list related to a Knitting e-commerce web site. The site admin is a good friend and I know they are very careful about the mail addresses in the list but bad emails still leak in.
On 07/25/2018 02:06 AM, ac via talk wrote:
Hi Evan,
The quick answer is that there is no agreement on best practise for unsub messages, the amount of verification (and time span of) and a number of other abuse related issues.
Here is what I personally (wrongly or correctly) do: Subscription (Opt in message / Confirm email message - 1 per day max three days) Unsubscribe - no message - just unsubscribe
never send any email from noreply@ I am not Google or Microsoft (and even the dentist around the corner is now doing that *sigh*)
When subscriber does anything on a link (Web) - send a confirm your request email
hth
Andre
On Wed, 25 Jul 2018 00:30:58 -0400 Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hi all.
This question is asked of anyone who administers a mailing list about policies. I'm setting up a campaign-based mailing system using phplist (as opposed to a forum-type MLM such as Mailman) and I'm interested to know what policies or best practices you might have in place to address this specific question:
When a list subscriber goes to a link to change their preferences or unsubscribe, from what email address does the confirmation (for changes) or "sorry to see you go" message (for unsubscriptions) originate.
Does such administrative email come from: a) an identifiable member or the organization's staff? b) a postmaster-type alias? c) a do-not-reply address?
Any feedback is appreciated.
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
participants (4)
-
ac -
Alvin Starr -
Evan Leibovitch -
Howard Gibson