Help with choosing a WiFi router
We’ve had a DLINK DIR-628 for quite a while. When it works it has been great, but it drops out several times a day. Sometimes it come back fairly seamlessly, but sometimes you have to turn off the wifi on connected devices and turn it back on again. Power-cycling it always resolves the problem, but it’s annoying. So I guess I’m in the market for a new WiFi router. A little bit of additional range would be great, and if there’s more speed available, so much the better, but as I said, when it’s working, it’s been great. It’s not uncommon for 3 video streams being viewed while I’m ssh’ed into remote systems, or downloading files, or cloning repositories, and it all works fine. Price isn’t a major concern… I’d happily pay for reliability and performance. To the degree it matters, we’re mostly connected from Apple devices (except for the gateway and RAID servers - both of which are Debian - which are wired together). Thanks for any advice! ../Dave
| From: David Mason via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | We’ve had a DLINK DIR-628 for quite a while. There's a new standard since then: 802.11ac. Confusing, because there already were 802.11a and 802.11c. There's been a race to be able to claim speed in wireless routers. They use multiple antennae to allow multiple devices to be supported at one time (beamforming?). <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ac> These advantages depend on the clients supporting 802.11ac. Enthusiast routers have gotten more expensive and look more like aggressive alien space ships. Just look at this one: <https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIADGE5R87033> I like the idea of OpenWRT but don't actually use it. Even though I have two wireless routers, I only use them as APs -- the routing functions are not used. So my advice about consumer wireless routers is pretty theoretical. For gateways (including the routing function), I use little PCs running CentOS or Fedora. Here's a reddit thread with some useful information and links <https://www.reddit.com/r/openwrt/comments/6izva9/ive_discovered_80211ac_and_now_want_an/> The TP-link C7 was a good candidate a few years ago. OpenWRT support, cheap, AC1750. They did decide to lock out firmware replacement due to their (quite rational) interpretation of a new FCC interpretation of regulations. I hope that that has blown over. Here it is for $79.88. <https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIADGE5R74269> Some folks like Ubiquiti and claim it is a notch above consumer equipment. I think that the best reviews of routers are on SmallNetBuilder. Here's a ranking they have: <https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/tools/rankers/router/view> Boy, the Phicomm K3C AC1900 looks inexpensive. US$40.51 from Amazon.com C$99.89 from Amazon.ca [Rip Off!] amazon.com will ship to me, for a total price of US$59.27, about C$77. Order Summary Items: $40.51 Shipping & handling: $13.06 Total before tax: $53.57 Estimated tax to be collected: $0.00 Import Fees Deposit: $5.70 Order total: $59.27 I don't know what the "import fees deposit" is. HST would be US$6.96. " You won't be charged additional fees if the actual Import Fees exceed the Import Fees Deposit we estimated. For items sold by Amazon Marketplace sellers, please check the seller's policies." So that seems like a reasonable choice. I don't imagine that the difference between AC1750 (C7) and AC1900 (K3C) matters. | When it works it has been | great, but it drops out several times a day. Sometimes it come back | fairly seamlessly, but sometimes you have to turn off the wifi on | connected devices and turn it back on again. Power-cycling it always | resolves the problem, but it’s annoying. Have you tried updating the firmware? Apparently that's a good idea anyway since many exploits of wireless routers are in the wild. Routers are a big target since they are exposed on the internet.
On 2019-03-30 11:10 p.m., D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
The TP-link C7 was a good candidate a few years ago. OpenWRT support, cheap, AC1750. They did decide to lock out firmware replacement due to their (quite rational) interpretation of a new FCC interpretation of regulations. I hope that that has blown over.
Dave Taht, Vint Cerf and a cast of thousands pointed out that made it harder for the FCC instead of easier, and they quietly changed their guidance. (I was Dave's editor on that one: see http://huchra.bufferbloat.net/~d/fcc_saner_software_practices.pdf) Some vendors have continued to block updates, citing the original guidance, but that's just their justification for an attempt to force hardware replacement rather than software update. --dave -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:20 AM David Collier-Brown via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2019-03-30 11:10 p.m., D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
The TP-link C7 was a good candidate a few years ago. OpenWRT support, cheap, AC1750. They did decide to lock out firmware replacement due to their (quite rational) interpretation of a new FCC interpretation of regulations. I hope that that has blown over.
Dave Taht, Vint Cerf and a cast of thousands pointed out that made it harder for the FCC instead of easier, and they quietly changed their guidance. (I was Dave's editor on that one: see http://huchra.bufferbloat.net/~d/fcc_saner_software_practices.pdf)
Some vendors have continued to block updates, citing the original guidance, but that's just their justification for an attempt to force hardware replacement rather than software update.
Greetings Attempting a read of the listed url results in: Forbidden You don't have permission to access /~d/fcc_saner_software_practices.pdf on this server. Server unable to read htaccess file, denying access to be safe Do you have another way to access said item? Regards Dee
On 03/31/2019 01:39 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
Greetings
Attempting a read of the listed url results in:
Forbidden You don't have permission to access /~d/fcc_saner_software_practices.pdf on this server. Server unable to read htaccess file, denying access to be safe
Do you have another way to access said item?
Regards I had no problem with it.
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 12:39:07PM -0500, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:20 AM David Collier-Brown via talk
http://huchra.bufferbloat.net/~d/fcc_saner_software_practices.pdf
Attempting a read of the listed url results in:
Forbidden You don't have permission to access /~d/fcc_saner_software_practices.pdf on this server. Server unable to read htaccess file, denying access to be safe
Do you have another way to access said item?
I get same message in Firefox. Tried wget and it works with IPv4, but hangs with IPv6. -- Tom Low-Shang 416 857 7013
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 2:30 PM Tom Low-Shang via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 12:39:07PM -0500, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:20 AM David Collier-Brown via talk
http://huchra.bufferbloat.net/~d/fcc_saner_software_practices.pdf
Attempting a read of the listed url results in:
Forbidden You don't have permission to access /~d/fcc_saner_software_practices.pdf on this server. Server unable to read htaccess file, denying access to be safe
Do you have another way to access said item?
I get same message in Firefox. Tried wget and it works with IPv4, but hangs with IPv6.
Thanks Tom - - -worked for me too using wget on IPv4. Regards
On 2019-03-31 3:30 p.m., Tom Low-Shang via talk wrote:
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 12:39:07PM -0500, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:20 AM David Collier-Brown via talk
http://huchra.bufferbloat.net/~d/fcc_saner_software_practices.pdf
[snip] I get same message in Firefox. Tried wget and it works with IPv4, but hangs with IPv6.
I got an error trying to get the file using wget so I tried retreiving it with curl and that worked. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ | "Nerds make the shiny things that https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and | that's why we're powerful" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 05:57:00PM -0400, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:
I got an error trying to get the file using wget so I tried retreiving it with curl and that worked.
I see random 403 errors with curl, wget, firefox, etc. They all work sometimes and get 403 sometimes. Clearly that server is very broken. It is not the client, it is not the IP version, it is the server that is nuts. -- Len Sorensen
(To the list) Chrome/Firefox is being cautious (and doing a DOS (:-)). Grab it with `curl http://huchra.bufferbloat.net/~d/fcc_saner_software_practices.pdf
fcc_saner_software_practices.pdf`
I'll email a copy --dave On 2019-03-31 1:39 p.m., o1bigtenor wrote:
On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 7:20 AM David Collier-Brown via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2019-03-30 11:10 p.m., D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
The TP-link C7 was a good candidate a few years ago. OpenWRT support, cheap, AC1750. They did decide to lock out firmware replacement due to their (quite rational) interpretation of a new FCC interpretation of regulations. I hope that that has blown over. Dave Taht, Vint Cerf and a cast of thousands pointed out that made it harder for the FCC instead of easier, and they quietly changed their guidance. (I was Dave's editor on that one: see http://huchra.bufferbloat.net/~d/fcc_saner_software_practices.pdf)
Some vendors have continued to block updates, citing the original guidance, but that's just their justification for an attempt to force hardware replacement rather than software update.
Greetings
Attempting a read of the listed url results in:
Forbidden You don't have permission to access /~d/fcc_saner_software_practices.pdf on this server. Server unable to read htaccess file, denying access to be safe
Do you have another way to access said item?
Regards
Dee
-- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain
On 03/30/2019 11:10 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
| From: David Mason via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
| We’ve had a DLINK DIR-628 for quite a while.
There's a new standard since then: 802.11ac. Confusing, because there already were 802.11a and 802.11c.
That's why 802.11ax is called WiFi 6. They've assigned other numbers, such as 5 to 802.11ac. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ax However, it's getting to the point where the improvements don't benefit individual users much. For example, MIMO improves performance for multiple users more than individuals. The main benefit for individuals would be somewhat greater distance, due to beam forming or focusing the signal in one direction.
There's been a race to be able to claim speed in wireless routers. They use multiple antennae to allow multiple devices to be supported at one time (beamforming?).
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ac>
These advantages depend on the clients supporting 802.11ac.
802.11ac is becoming common these days. My Pixel 2 phone, which I bought over a year ago supports it. 802,11ax supports MIMO in both directions, whereas 802.11ac only on transmit.
Enthusiast routers have gotten more expensive and look more like aggressive alien space ships. Just look at this one:
<https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIADGE5R87033>
They are also capable of much more. Some support mesh, where multiple APs can work together to provide seamless coverage over a large area.
I like the idea of OpenWRT but don't actually use it. Even though I have two wireless routers, I only use them as APs -- the routing functions are not used. So my advice about consumer wireless routers is pretty theoretical. For gateways (including the routing function), I use little PCs running CentOS or Fedora.
I prefer separate APs and routers. Many APs support power over Ethernet (PoE), so you don't have to worry about having power near where the AP works best. Mine's at the top of the wall in my laundry room, which puts it roughly in the middle of my condo. O'Reilly has some good WiFi books, by Michael Gast. Recommended reading if you really want to learn about WiFi.
On 03/31/2019 08:55 AM, James Knott wrote:
I prefer separate APs and routers. Many APs support power over Ethernet (PoE), so you don't have to worry about having power near where the AP works best. Mine's at the top of the wall in my laundry room, which puts it roughly in the middle of my condo.
Forgot to mention, my firewall/router is pfSense, running on a refurb computer.
Sorry, I mis-spoke. I actually am just looking for an AP. I have a (Debian) gateway machine that is connected to the wireless, the Internet, and the file server via 3 separate wired ethernets. I don’t like the idea of commercial software connected to the Internet. I was looking at TP-Link Archer C7 AC1750 Dual Band Wireless AC Gigabit Router https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00BUSDVBQ?ref_=ams_ad_dp_ttl for $80 (I have Prime). Are there just APs that are better price/performance? Thanks again ../Dave On Mar 31, 2019, 8:56 AM -0400, James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org>, wrote:
On 03/30/2019 11:10 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
| From: David Mason via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
| We’ve had a DLINK DIR-628 for quite a while.
There's a new standard since then: 802.11ac. Confusing, because there already were 802.11a and 802.11c.
That's why 802.11ax is called WiFi 6. They've assigned other numbers, such as 5 to 802.11ac. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ax
However, it's getting to the point where the improvements don't benefit individual users much. For example, MIMO improves performance for multiple users more than individuals. The main benefit for individuals would be somewhat greater distance, due to beam forming or focusing the signal in one direction.
There's been a race to be able to claim speed in wireless routers. They use multiple antennae to allow multiple devices to be supported at one time (beamforming?).
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_802.11ac>
These advantages depend on the clients supporting 802.11ac.
802.11ac is becoming common these days. My Pixel 2 phone, which I bought over a year ago supports it. 802,11ax supports MIMO in both directions, whereas 802.11ac only on transmit.
Enthusiast routers have gotten more expensive and look more like aggressive alien space ships. Just look at this one:
<https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIADGE5R87033>
They are also capable of much more. Some support mesh, where multiple APs can work together to provide seamless coverage over a large area.
I like the idea of OpenWRT but don't actually use it. Even though I have two wireless routers, I only use them as APs -- the routing functions are not used. So my advice about consumer wireless routers is pretty theoretical. For gateways (including the routing function), I use little PCs running CentOS or Fedora.
I prefer separate APs and routers. Many APs support power over Ethernet (PoE), so you don't have to worry about having power near where the AP works best. Mine's at the top of the wall in my laundry room, which puts it roughly in the middle of my condo.
O'Reilly has some good WiFi books, by Michael Gast. Recommended reading if you really want to learn about WiFi.
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 03/31/2019 07:17 PM, David Mason wrote:
I was looking at TP-Link Archer C7 AC1750 Dual Band Wireless AC Gigabit Router https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00BUSDVBQ?ref_=ams_ad_dp_ttl for $80 (I have Prime).
Are there just APs that are better price/performance?
Be careful with TP link. Some of their gear doesn't handle VLANs properly. I have a TP link TL-WA901N AP that has that problem and it prevents me from setting up a guest WiFi.
Take note on the AC1900 from asus as good as it is .if you want any of the good features you will need to turn them on and they report back to the mother ship. Who knows what info they are sharing. On Sun., Mar. 31, 2019, 9:18 p.m. James Knott via talk, <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 03/31/2019 07:17 PM, David Mason wrote:
I was looking at TP-Link Archer C7 AC1750 Dual Band Wireless AC Gigabit Router https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00BUSDVBQ?ref_=ams_ad_dp_ttl for $80 (I have Prime).
Are there just APs that are better price/performance?
Be careful with TP link. Some of their gear doesn't handle VLANs properly. I have a TP link TL-WA901N AP that has that problem and it prevents me from setting up a guest WiFi.
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 3/30/19 11:10 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
Some folks like Ubiquiti and claim it is a notch above consumer equipment.
I'm one of them. My first exposure to it was working remotely on our APs in the London UK office. I've now redone my home internet to 2 load balanced 1.5mbit connections with an Edgerouter-X. The router handles 2 separate PPPoE accounts and balances across them. Then it runs a Unifi AP Lite unit over PoE. I have another AP Lite meshed with the first to extend the range. So I have a single virtual access point everywhere in the house and around my property that automatically hands off between APs, and also switches clients from/to 2.4/5GHz frequencies depending on spectrum use, requirements, proximity to the APs etc. Any device sees a single access point, despite there being 4 separate radios at work. I have never been happy with my home wifi/internet until setting it up like this with their equipment. The second AP Lite is overkill. You can have an ER-X and single AP Lite for ~$225 shipped with tax if you shop around. Much of the consumer 1750 or 1900 spec stuff costs as much and doesn't get firmware updates for more than a year or two, and doesn't let you configure a fraction of what you can with the Ubiquiti kit. Highly recommend!
On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 11:10:53PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
There's a new standard since then: 802.11ac. Confusing, because there already were 802.11a and 802.11c.
And there is 802.11ax as well. The naming is only confusing if you don't know the insane naming system used by IEEE. Use a-z then start over at aa going to az, then ba up to bz, etc. There is an 802.11ax AP on the ceiling above me at the moment (although I don't think ax mode works on it quite yet). Of course for consumer use they have now named 802.11n as Wifi 4, 802.11ac as Wifi 5 and 802.11ax as Wifi 6.
I like the idea of OpenWRT but don't actually use it. Even though I have two wireless routers, I only use them as APs -- the routing functions are not used. So my advice about consumer wireless routers is pretty theoretical. For gateways (including the routing function), I use little PCs running CentOS or Fedora.
I have OpenWRT on my WRT1900ACv2. Used to run LEDE until they re-merged. Seems to work quite well. I know there is a WRT32X now that is similar but I haven't used one. -- Len Sorensen
N: Asus RT-N66U -- I have this at home. AC: Linksys WRT3200ACM -- we have it at work. If you're adventurous, then try Mikrotik. I hear only good things about them. -- William Park <opengeometry@yahoo.ca> On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 06:11:49PM -0400, David Mason via talk wrote:
We???ve had a DLINK DIR-628 for quite a while. When it works it has been great, but it drops out several times a day. Sometimes it come back fairly seamlessly, but sometimes you have to turn off the wifi on connected devices and turn it back on again. Power-cycling it always resolves the problem, but it???s annoying.
So I guess I???m in the market for a new WiFi router. A little bit of additional range would be great, and if there???s more speed available, so much the better, but as I said, when it???s working, it???s been great. It???s not uncommon for 3 video streams being viewed while I???m ssh???ed into remote systems, or downloading files, or cloning repositories, and it all works fine.
Price isn???t a major concern??? I???d happily pay for reliability and performance. To the degree it matters, we???re mostly connected from Apple devices (except for the gateway and RAID servers - both of which are Debian - which are wired together).
Thanks for any advice!
./Dave
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
participants (11)
-
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
David Collier-Brown -
David Mason -
Digiital aka David -
James Knott -
Jamon Camisso -
Kevin Cozens -
lsorense＠csclub.uwaterloo.ca -
o1bigtenor -
Tom Low-Shang -
William Park