Hi all, I need to get a computer for a project that requires a program that is only available for windows. However, I intend to dual boot with Linux and want to make sure that I buy something that is nicely compatible. And I'm looking for the portability of a laptop. There seems to be a general appreciation of Thinkpads on this list. I have my eye on a Thinkpad T410 and was wondering if anyone has reason to suggest that I should stay away from that particular model. The store will be installing Windows 7 and they apparently have enough Linux knowledge to install a dual boot system. I believe there was someone on the list (I think from Kitchener) who sold laptops pre-installed with linux. If that person is still around, I'd welcome a contact off list. Thanks, John.
On 25/01/15 05:21 PM, John Moniz wrote:
Hi all,
I need to get a computer for a project that requires a program that is only available for windows. However, I intend to dual boot with Linux and want to make sure that I buy something that is nicely compatible. And I'm looking for the portability of a laptop.
There seems to be a general appreciation of Thinkpads on this list. I have my eye on a Thinkpad T410 and was wondering if anyone has reason to suggest that I should stay away from that particular model. The store will be installing Windows 7 and they apparently have enough Linux knowledge to install a dual boot system.
I believe there was someone on the list (I think from Kitchener) who sold laptops pre-installed with linux. If that person is still around, I'd welcome a contact off list.
Thanks,
John.
I've had a T400s, x120e and now W530, all running Fedora without issue. The main question is the model of wireless card in the machine... I always get the proper Intel-branded ones. The cheaper ones probably work fine, but they might require a wrapper, not sure. The only thing I'd suggest is to look at prices for the T420... Probably won't be much different and would win you another generation. Generally, Thinkpads (T,X and W series) are solid bets. -- Digimer Papers and Projects: https://alteeve.ca/w/ What if the cure for cancer is trapped in the mind of a person without access to education?
On Sun, 25 Jan 2015 17:21:36 -0500 John Moniz <john.moniz@sympatico.ca> wrote:
Hi all,
I need to get a computer for a project that requires a program that is only available for windows. However, I intend to dual boot with Linux and want to make sure that I buy something that is nicely compatible. And I'm looking for the portability of a laptop.
There seems to be a general appreciation of Thinkpads on this list. I have my eye on a Thinkpad T410 and was wondering if anyone has reason to suggest that I should stay away from that particular model. The store will be installing Windows 7 and they apparently have enough Linux knowledge to install a dual boot system.
I believe there was someone on the list (I think from Kitchener) who sold laptops pre-installed with linux. If that person is still around, I'd welcome a contact off list.
Thanks,
John./gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
John, My current laptop is a Lenovo of that series. I have no complaints about it, other than its lack of an SDHC port. I could probably get the modem working if I made the effort, but I haven't. I have my installation instructions up on my website. -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca howard.gibson@optech.com jhowardgibson@gmail.com http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 05:28:49PM -0500, Howard Gibson wrote:
My current laptop is a Lenovo of that series. I have no complaints about it, other than its lack of an SDHC port. I could probably get the modem working if I made the effort, but I haven't. I have my installation instructions up on my website.
What model doesn't have a slot for SDHC? Just too old to do anything more than SD? Certainly my W530 has no issue with SD, SDHC or SDXC cards. -- Len Sorensen
On Mon, 26 Jan 2015 12:58:43 -0500 "Lennart Sorensen" <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 05:28:49PM -0500, Howard Gibson wrote:
My current laptop is a Lenovo of that series. I have no complaints about it, other than its lack of an SDHC port. I could probably get the modem working if I made the effort, but I haven't. I have my installation instructions up on my website.
What model doesn't have a slot for SDHC? Just too old to do anything more than SD? Certainly my W530 has no issue with SD, SDHC or SDXC cards.
Lennart, Now, I am sitting in front of it! I have a T400. There is no SD slot of any kind. -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca howard.gibson@optech.com jhowardgibson@gmail.com http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
On 01/27/2015 10:51 AM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 07:49:15PM -0500, Howard Gibson wrote:
Now, I am sitting in front of it!
I have a T400. There is no SD slot of any kind.
Ok, that is pretty old I guess. I certainly do like having a slot for SD.
It looks like the T410 doesn't have one either.
I think it was optional on both the T400 and later models. Only the X series had an SD card slot on every model since at least the X60.
On 25/01/15 05:21 PM, John Moniz wrote:
I need to get a computer for a project that requires a program that is only available for windows. However, I intend to dual boot with Linux and want to make sure that I buy something that is nicely compatible. And I'm looking for the portability of a laptop.
There seems to be a general appreciation of Thinkpads on this list. I have my eye on a Thinkpad T410 and was wondering if anyone has reason to suggest that I should stay away from that particular model. The store will be installing Windows 7 and they apparently have enough Linux knowledge to install a dual boot system. [...]
Unfortunately, the model number isn't enough to go on by itself. While ThinkPads tend to be pretty good in general, it depends on some specific hardware inside it (and even the same model can come with slight variations). Does it have a standard Intel onboard graphics card, or does it have a Nvidia graphics? There are only proprietary Nvidia drivers available for GNU/Linux, whereas I think Intel graphics are usually good for free software drivers. The other tricky this is wireless, and going with Intel isn't enough... I have Intel wireless adapters for my ThinkPad X60 and T61, both of which do *not* work with free software and require proprietary drivers in GNU/Linux. I thought I was okay because the wireless cards were "intel" when making the purchase, but I was wrong about the particular type of Intel wireless adapter. (My workaround has been to buy a USB wireless adapter from ThinkPenguin for ~$25.) In my (limited) experience, it's the graphics and wireless cards that you need to watch out for. Some may not work with free software drivers in GNU/Linux.
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 11:53:06PM -0500, Blaise Alleyne wrote:
Unfortunately, the model number isn't enough to go on by itself. While ThinkPads tend to be pretty good in general, it depends on some specific hardware inside it (and even the same model can come with slight variations).
Well all mine end in CTO, so you really don't know what is in them unless you were the one that ordered it. My guess is that CTO means 'Configure To Order' or something like that.
Does it have a standard Intel onboard graphics card, or does it have a Nvidia graphics? There are only proprietary Nvidia drivers available for GNU/Linux, whereas I think Intel graphics are usually good for free software drivers.
Yeah nvidia graphics can be a tad tricky to get working, although in the case of my W530, it works fine with the intel graphics if I am willing to ignore the nvidia even existing (I have managed to get optimus working though for the times I want 3D fast). The older ones that didn't use optimus ought to work with nvidiafb in general, but I suppose a few might need the proprietary nvidia drivers to work.
The other tricky this is wireless, and going with Intel isn't enough... I have Intel wireless adapters for my ThinkPad X60 and T61, both of which do *not* work with free software and require proprietary drivers in GNU/Linux. I thought I was okay because the wireless cards were "intel" when making the purchase, but I was wrong about the particular type of Intel wireless adapter.
No the intel wifi requires non-free firmware, but the drivers are fine. If you go back far enough to the old 2200, then it was a problem, but anything recent is fine.
(My workaround has been to buy a USB wireless adapter from ThinkPenguin for ~$25.)
In my (limited) experience, it's the graphics and wireless cards that you need to watch out for. Some may not work with free software drivers in GNU/Linux.
-- Len Sorensen
On 26/01/15 01:02 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 11:53:06PM -0500, Blaise Alleyne wrote:
The other tricky this is wireless, and going with Intel isn't enough... I have Intel wireless adapters for my ThinkPad X60 and T61, both of which do *not* work with free software and require proprietary drivers in GNU/Linux. I thought I was okay because the wireless cards were "intel" when making the purchase, but I was wrong about the particular type of Intel wireless adapter.
No the intel wifi requires non-free firmware, but the drivers are fine. If you go back far enough to the old 2200, then it was a problem, but anything recent is fine.
Oh, yeah, the proprietary drivers work fine, but that's only if you're willing to run proprietary drivers. I'd really rather not, hence the ThinkPenguin adapter, and hence wishing I hadn't just trusted "intel" when buying the thing...
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 02:06:12PM -0500, Blaise Alleyne wrote:
Oh, yeah, the proprietary drivers work fine, but that's only if you're willing to run proprietary drivers.
I'd really rather not, hence the ThinkPenguin adapter, and hence wishing I hadn't just trusted "intel" when buying the thing...
Well certainly the intel wifi on my thinkpad has a fully open driver, but also has some firmware loaded into the wifi chip's processor that is not free. But at least it is not like the old early intel where you had to run a radio manager in user space that was a binary blob. They did eventually fix that. -- Len Sorensen
On 26/01/15 01:02 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 11:53:06PM -0500, Blaise Alleyne wrote:
Unfortunately, the model number isn't enough to go on by itself. While ThinkPads tend to be pretty good in general, it depends on some specific hardware inside it (and even the same model can come with slight variations).
Well all mine end in CTO, so you really don't know what is in them unless you were the one that ordered it. My guess is that CTO means 'Configure To Order' or something like that.
Hmm, my old ThinkPads have a "type", e.g. ThinkPad X60 Type 1709, but yeah, if it's something configured to order than I suppose it'd be tricky to figure that out in advance without booting the machine to see what's in there.
On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 02:07:55PM -0500, Blaise Alleyne wrote:
Hmm, my old ThinkPads have a "type", e.g. ThinkPad X60 Type 1709, but yeah, if it's something configured to order than I suppose it'd be tricky to figure that out in advance without booting the machine to see what's in there.
Oh mine has a type too, but the 3 letters at the end are CTO. I think mine is 2436-CTO or something like that. A quick google search says 2436-CTO is in fact a W530, so I remembered it correctly. -- Len Sorensen
On Sun, Jan 25, 2015 at 05:21:36PM -0500, John Moniz wrote:
I need to get a computer for a project that requires a program that is only available for windows. However, I intend to dual boot with Linux and want to make sure that I buy something that is nicely compatible. And I'm looking for the portability of a laptop.
There seems to be a general appreciation of Thinkpads on this list. I have my eye on a Thinkpad T410 and was wondering if anyone has reason to suggest that I should stay away from that particular model. The store will be installing Windows 7 and they apparently have enough Linux knowledge to install a dual boot system.
I believe there was someone on the list (I think from Kitchener) who sold laptops pre-installed with linux. If that person is still around, I'd welcome a contact off list.
I can't imagine any problems with a T410, nor dual booting it. Should be fine. I know the T430 works great with both windows 7 and linux. -- Len Sorensen
| From: John Moniz <john.moniz@sympatico.ca> | There seems to be a general appreciation of Thinkpads on this list. I have my | eye on a Thinkpad T410 and was wondering if anyone has reason to suggest that | I should stay away from that particular model. The T-series is appreciated in the Linux world. (The W series is like T, with a bit more capability). If you are paying a store to do this, you are spending real money. You might as well pay a bit more and get at least a T420 (in my opinion). A T430 is even better but I think that many are unhappy with the T440's trackpad (I may be misremembering). I'm more familiar with the T5x0 models, but they are very similar. I care a lot about the screen resolution, and there are choices. CPUs matter too. In notebooks, I prefer recent CPUs for their lower power consumption. But of course I don't know what you value. There are a lot of resources about Linux on Thinkpads on the net. One source for old thinkpads is IBM itself. Sometimes there are good deals, sometimes not: <http://www-304.ibm.com/shop/americas/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/default/CategoryDisplay?categoryId=2576396&storeId=1083996950&catalogId=-124&langId=124> Right now, I consider these prices high.
On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 03:21:41AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
The T-series is appreciated in the Linux world. (The W series is like T, with a bit more capability).
Certainly some W models can take a lot more ram than a T model, but that seems it might not be the case in the future. Not sure, given so far only the slim version of the W550 (W550s) has been shown, and it is not looking good as far as a lot of W5xx fans are concerned. Seems most W5xx users think slim is irrelevant compared to functional and trading features for light weight and slim is not something they are willing to do. The difference between needing a 170W and a 65W power supply gives some idea how much was stripped out in the slim version. The real W550 is apparently not happening until later this year when the next generation of mobile core i7s are ready.
If you are paying a store to do this, you are spending real money. You might as well pay a bit more and get at least a T420 (in my opinion). A T430 is even better but I think that many are unhappy with the T440's trackpad (I may be misremembering).
Yeah people are not happy with the T440.
I'm more familiar with the T5x0 models, but they are very similar. I care a lot about the screen resolution, and there are choices. CPUs matter too. In notebooks, I prefer recent CPUs for their lower power consumption.
T4xx and T5xx are essentially the same except screen size.
But of course I don't know what you value.
There are a lot of resources about Linux on Thinkpads on the net.
One source for old thinkpads is IBM itself. Sometimes there are good deals, sometimes not: <http://www-304.ibm.com/shop/americas/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/default/CategoryDisplay?categoryId=2576396&storeId=1083996950&catalogId=-124&langId=124> Right now, I consider these prices high.
-- Len Sorensen
On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 03:21:41AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
The T-series is appreciated in the Linux world. (The W series is like T, with a bit more capability). Certainly some W models can take a lot more ram than a T model, but that seems it might not be the case in the future. Not sure, given so far only the slim version of the W550 (W550s) has been shown, and it is not looking good as far as a lot of W5xx fans are concerned. Seems most W5xx users think slim is irrelevant compared to functional and trading features for light weight and slim is not something they are willing to do. The difference between needing a 170W and a 65W power supply gives some idea how much was stripped out in the slim version. The real W550 is apparently not happening until later this year when the next generation of mobile core i7s are ready.
If you are paying a store to do this, you are spending real money. You might as well pay a bit more and get at least a T420 (in my opinion). A T430 is even better but I think that many are unhappy with the T440's trackpad (I may be misremembering). Yeah people are not happy with the T440.
I'm more familiar with the T5x0 models, but they are very similar. I care a lot about the screen resolution, and there are choices. CPUs matter too. In notebooks, I prefer recent CPUs for their lower power consumption. T4xx and T5xx are essentially the same except screen size.
But of course I don't know what you value.
There are a lot of resources about Linux on Thinkpads on the net.
One source for old thinkpads is IBM itself. Sometimes there are good deals, sometimes not: <http://www-304.ibm.com/shop/americas/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/default/CategoryDisplay?categoryId=2576396&storeId=1083996950&catalogId=-124&langId=124> Right now, I consider these prices high. I went back to the store to re-examine the T410 more closely and to look into the T420 as someone suggested. My attention switched to a T520 that he had available for $20 more than the T410. It has Intel wifi (Centrino) and switchable graphics (Intel & Nvidia). It presently has nvidia but he said I could get intel graphics instead. I don't know if
On 01/29/2015 12:13 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote: this switchable thing means that I can swap graphics cards. Unless someone sounds an alarm soon, I'll be buying the T520 later in the week. Thanks, John.
On Mon, Feb 02, 2015 at 08:29:44PM -0500, John Moniz wrote:
I went back to the store to re-examine the T410 more closely and to look into the T420 as someone suggested. My attention switched to a T520 that he had available for $20 more than the T410. It has Intel wifi (Centrino) and switchable graphics (Intel & Nvidia). It presently has nvidia but he said I could get intel graphics instead. I don't know if this switchable thing means that I can swap graphics cards.
Unless someone sounds an alarm soon, I'll be buying the T520 later in the week.
The T420/T520 like the T430/T530 should have nvidia optimus, which means it has both intel and nvidia graphics, and switches on the fly when asked to. You can select in the BIOS which one it should enable by default at boot. Obviously when the nvidia is off and the intel only in use, the battery life is a lot better. -- Len Sorensen
On Mon, Feb 02, 2015 at 10:05:28PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
The T420/T520 like the T430/T530 should have nvidia optimus, which means it has both intel and nvidia graphics, and switches on the fly when asked to.
For that matter I believe even the T410/T510 has nvidia optimus. -- Len Sorensen
| From: John Moniz <john.moniz@sympatico.ca> | I went back to the store to re-examine the T410 more closely and to look into | the T420 as someone suggested. My attention switched to a T520 that he had | available for $20 more than the T410. It has Intel wifi (Centrino) and | switchable graphics (Intel & Nvidia). It presently has nvidia but he said I | could get intel graphics instead. I don't know if this switchable thing means | that I can swap graphics cards. | | Unless someone sounds an alarm soon, I'll be buying the T520 later in the | week. To me, the display resolution is important. You can get anything from 1366x768, 1440x900(?), 1920x1080. There may be an IPS screen option too, which is quite nice. You haven't mentioned the resolutions on the models you are considering. Does it not matter to you? The Intel + Nvidia choice is probably better than straight Intel. After all, you can chose which to use (as Lennart pointed out). For my use, the Nvidia would probably not be important, but I'd take it if it was inexpensive or free. Clearly the T4x0 is easier to carry than the T5x0. We have T520, W520, and T530 and they seem to be pretty good workhorses. But my main notebook is a Lenovo Yoga 2 pro and that is much better as a portable device (more screen resolution, lighter, thinner, longer battery life). As workstations, the Thinkpads are much more powerful and upgradeable/repairable.
D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
Clearly the T4x0 is easier to carry than the T5x0.
Though the X series is supposed to be the easiest to carry. I have memories of jogging around Ottawa with an old A-series Thinkpad on my back, and I was younger back then. I've tended toward the laptop being for away only, and a proper desktop machine at home, but laptop performance has gotten up to the point of making sense as a primary machine, and then there isn't the hassle of maintaining two systems and the laptop always being woefully out of date and needing a lot of OS updates and personal file transfers when being pulled out for a trip. (Maybe a compute server, or render farm, at home is still an option for the occasional thing needing a lot of horsepower...) It looks like the X220 is the last X-series machine from before Lenovo got silly, and the i7-based models can be had with USB3 for moving data around. That last feature is something I don't see on as many current Thinkpads as I thought I should. -- Anthony de Boer
On 02/02/2015 11:44 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
| From: John Moniz <john.moniz@sympatico.ca>
| I went back to the store to re-examine the T410 more closely and to look into | the T420 as someone suggested. My attention switched to a T520 that he had | available for $20 more than the T410. It has Intel wifi (Centrino) and | switchable graphics (Intel & Nvidia). It presently has nvidia but he said I | could get intel graphics instead. I don't know if this switchable thing means | that I can swap graphics cards. | | Unless someone sounds an alarm soon, I'll be buying the T520 later in the | week.
To me, the display resolution is important. You can get anything from 1366x768, 1440x900(?), 1920x1080. There may be an IPS screen option too, which is quite nice. You haven't mentioned the resolutions on the models you are considering. Does it not matter to you?
The Intel + Nvidia choice is probably better than straight Intel. After all, you can chose which to use (as Lennart pointed out). For my use, the Nvidia would probably not be important, but I'd take it if it was inexpensive or free.
Clearly the T4x0 is easier to carry than the T5x0.
We have T520, W520, and T530 and they seem to be pretty good workhorses. But my main notebook is a Lenovo Yoga 2 pro and that is much better as a portable device (more screen resolution, lighter, thinner, longer battery life). As workstations, the Thinkpads are much more powerful and upgradeable/repairable. --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org http://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
The screen resolution is not great but it suits my needs (1366x768). And it does have a multi card reader. Unfortunately, it has no USB3. The specs in general are good, but not the latest greatest. Overall, I think it's not only good for my application, it's also a good fit for Linux (as per all the feedback, for which I am grateful as it puts my mind at ease). Thanks, John.
On Tue, Feb 03, 2015 at 12:04:42PM -0500, John Moniz wrote:
The screen resolution is not great but it suits my needs (1366x768). And it does have a multi card reader. Unfortunately, it has no USB3. The specs in general are good, but not the latest greatest.
Overall, I think it's not only good for my application, it's also a good fit for Linux (as per all the feedback, for which I am grateful as it puts my mind at ease).
I seem to recall USB3 arrived with the x30 models. -- Len Sorensen
Go read the notes on thinkwiki for that model and variants. David Thornton. On Jan 25, 2015 5:22 PM, "John Moniz" <john.moniz@sympatico.ca> wrote:
Hi all,
I need to get a computer for a project that requires a program that is only available for windows. However, I intend to dual boot with Linux and want to make sure that I buy something that is nicely compatible. And I'm looking for the portability of a laptop.
There seems to be a general appreciation of Thinkpads on this list. I have my eye on a Thinkpad T410 and was wondering if anyone has reason to suggest that I should stay away from that particular model. The store will be installing Windows 7 and they apparently have enough Linux knowledge to install a dual boot system.
I believe there was someone on the list (I think from Kitchener) who sold laptops pre-installed with linux. If that person is still around, I'd welcome a contact off list.
Thanks,
John.
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org http://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
participants (9)
-
Anthony de Boer -
Blaise Alleyne -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
David Thornton -
Digimer -
Howard Gibson -
John Moniz -
Lennart Sorensen -
Matt Lee