Greetings I bought web hosting and registered 2 domains with a company. The domains need to be renewed annually but the hosting is on a three year rotation. The renewal is going to be about 2.7 x the original hosting contract. Is this normal? What do you of those that have a personal or small business website do - - - move before renewal - - - or ????? I have managed to setup a webserver here at home. I tried to use one of my domains - - - that doesn't work because dns resolves to my host and not here. Any suggestions on what and/or how to setup things to experiment here before I go live with something? (I want to try things like horde's webmail groupware (Have it installed locally already) and other tools in the running of the business.) TIA Dee
I've seen renew contracts getting cheaper, not the other way. Moore's law at work. If your provider is asking for more, change the provider. Copy all content from one site to the other, put an entry on /etc/hosts for your domain, pointing to the new IP, and test everything. Before the move, change the TTL for your domains for a small interval (around 5 minutes). One of two days later, when the DNS changes had propagated and your tests passed, change the DNS records pointing to the new IP and restore the TTL to the old value. Why change the TTL twice? The first time is to tell every DNS server, cache and client that a change is imminent. When you do the change, very few clients will have the old IP on cache, as the record expires fast. The second change is to bring things back to normal. On Oct 30, 2017 08:39, "o1bigtenor via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote: Greetings I bought web hosting and registered 2 domains with a company. The domains need to be renewed annually but the hosting is on a three year rotation. The renewal is going to be about 2.7 x the original hosting contract. Is this normal? What do you of those that have a personal or small business website do - - - move before renewal - - - or ????? I have managed to setup a webserver here at home. I tried to use one of my domains - - - that doesn't work because dns resolves to my host and not here. Any suggestions on what and/or how to setup things to experiment here before I go live with something? (I want to try things like horde's webmail groupware (Have it installed locally already) and other tools in the running of the business.) TIA Dee --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Greetings On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 5:54 AM, Mauro Souza <thoriumbr@gmail.com> wrote:
I've seen renew contracts getting cheaper, not the other way. Moore's law at work. If your provider is asking for more, change the provider.
Copy all content from one site to the other, put an entry on /etc/hosts for your domain, pointing to the new IP, and test everything.
I haven't developed anything yet on the hosted web sites. Have started work on some stuff here at home Sort of thought that this wasn't perhaps the best solution (to stay at the same hosting firm).
Before the move, change the TTL for your domains for a small interval (around 5 minutes). One of two days later, when the DNS changes had propagated and your tests passed, change the DNS records pointing to the new IP and restore the TTL to the old value.
Why change the TTL twice? The first time is to tell every DNS server, cache and client that a change is imminent. When you do the change, very few clients will have the old IP on cache, as the record expires fast. The second change is to bring things back to normal.
Thank you for the advice!!! Dee
On Mon, 30 Oct 2017 05:39:32 -0500 o1bigtenor via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Greetings I bought web hosting and registered 2 domains with a company. The domains need to be renewed annually but the hosting is on a three year rotation. The renewal is going to be about 2.7 x the original hosting contract. Is this normal? What do you of those that have a personal or small business website do - - - move before renewal - - - or ????? I have managed to setup a webserver here at home. I tried to use one of my domains - - - that doesn't work because dns resolves to my host and not here. Any suggestions on what and/or how to setup things to experiment here before I go live with something? (I want to try things like horde's webmail groupware (Have it installed locally already) and other tools in the running of the business.)
webserver at home sounds fine... I can help you with your dns if you like (free of course :) ) domains - depends on the domain, like .com is about us$9 or us$9.5 per year) mail me off list if you like and i will help you :) Andre
On 10/30/2017 06:39 AM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
I have managed to setup a webserver here at home. I tried to use one of my domains - - - that doesn't work because dns resolves to my host and not here. Any suggestions on what and/or how to setup things to experiment here before I go live with something?
Do you have control of the DNS entries? If you do, just change the A & AAAA records to reflect the new IP address(es). If you don't, you may have to move your domains to another DNS provider.
Web hosting can be purchased on the occasional sale, such as Black Friday, so renewal costs can be much higher. I always compare renewal costs and not the initial loss leader signup cost. The 2.7 times higher hosting costs may be valid, depending on the hosting services provided. Moe importantly, what did you buy? Some hosts don't even provide on demand backup, and some hosts will charge you for a restore. Some hosts don't provide SSH. Shared services or a dedicated IP? Reputation, which is very important? I would not recommend self-hosting at home. There are too many rogue bots roaming around the world, and the possibility of hacking is near certain. Yes, if you keep up with all the updates and monitor your server carefully you can be ok, but I know that my hosting provider had to purchase additional software just to deal with DDOS attacks and other intrusions. Unless you want to take on the sys admin role, for me the hosting costs are well worthwhile. If you are with the right host, your site becomes more popular and you run out of ram it should be easy to upgrade. Personally I'd rather concentrate on the web site, SEO and social media than futz with Apache settings, so would rather be on a host provider. The hosting costs can be pretty small, depending on what you purchase. Don On 30 October 2017 at 06:39, o1bigtenor via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Greetings
I bought web hosting and registered 2 domains with a company. The domains need to be renewed annually but the hosting is on a three year rotation. The renewal is going to be about 2.7 x the original hosting contract.
Is this normal? What do you of those that have a personal or small business website do - - - move before renewal - - - or ?????
I have managed to setup a webserver here at home. I tried to use one of my domains - - - that doesn't work because dns resolves to my host and not here. Any suggestions on what and/or how to setup things to experiment here before I go live with something? (I want to try things like horde's webmail groupware (Have it installed locally already) and other tools in the running of the business.)
TIA
Dee
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Greetings On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 6:27 AM, Don Tai <dontai.canada@gmail.com> wrote:
Web hosting can be purchased on the occasional sale, such as Black Friday, so renewal costs can be much higher. I always compare renewal costs and not the initial loss leader signup cost. The 2.7 times higher hosting costs may be valid, depending on the hosting services provided. Moe importantly, what did you buy? Some hosts don't even provide on demand backup, and some hosts will charge you for a restore. Some hosts don't provide SSH. Shared services or a dedicated IP? Reputation, which is very important?
I am getting an education out of this for sure. What was purchased was 2 domains and a 3 year small business hosting package at hostpapa. I has become quite clear that what I got was something like buying a car. Didn't specify that I wanted a steering wheel - - - so I need to add this. The website builder program - - I didn't use it in the first year - - - its now an extra fee. Sorry - - - in setting up a complicated small business there are a mountain of things to be done and the website was/is on the list, its just that money is quite short and time keeps disappearing and so things get done when they do. Its also frustrating when you sign up for x and the renewal is quite a large increase. One would think that the hosting companies might not want you to move.
I would not recommend self-hosting at home. There are too many rogue bots roaming around the world, and the possibility of hacking is near certain. Yes, if you keep up with all the updates and monitor your server carefully you can be ok, but I know that my hosting provider had to purchase additional software just to deal with DDOS attacks and other intrusions. Unless you want to take on the sys admin role, for me the hosting costs are well worthwhile. If you are with the right host, your site becomes more popular and you run out of ram it should be easy to upgrade.
Personally I'd rather concentrate on the web site, SEO and social media than futz with Apache settings, so would rather be on a host provider. The hosting costs can be pretty small, depending on what you purchase.
That was the idea. My server here is for managing my business - - - not for managing my website - - - that's what I wanted hosting for. The problem is that I want to experiment on the server here (set up various services at very least) and somehow I can't use these domains that I have paid for. Likely its a case of me wanting too much and not knowing enough. I can change the not knowing enough but haven't been able to find information. My hosting company is quite good at offering a lot of information with much of it being 'non-useful'. Thanking you for your consideration!! Dee
I would also council to separate your domains from your hosting provider. If you have a dispute with your hosting provider you should be able to easily switch hosts. You cannot do this if your domains and hosting are from the same source. It is like separating your email address from your internet provider. Maybe you are lucky and the host provider has farmed this out to a domain names company? Of provided a domain name for free (transfer after one year)? Bots will try to hack into your web site, and if you have business stuff there that is a bonus for them. A clear separation between the internet and your internal network is always a good idea. Whatever you can do at home you should be able to set up on your host provider in a test environment. The host should be able to provide a linux session, just like at home. Take nothing for granted when looking for a host provider. If it does not say backups and restores are available and free, then it is not provided. If not sure, then ask. Web sites are very easy to put up and maintain, depending on the package you wish to use. Of course having less money means having to learn more. Don On 30 October 2017 at 07:39, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@gmail.com> wrote:
Greetings
On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 6:27 AM, Don Tai <dontai.canada@gmail.com> wrote:
Web hosting can be purchased on the occasional sale, such as Black Friday, so renewal costs can be much higher. I always compare renewal costs and not the initial loss leader signup cost. The 2.7 times higher hosting costs may be valid, depending on the hosting services provided. Moe importantly, what did you buy? Some hosts don't even provide on demand backup, and some hosts will charge you for a restore. Some hosts don't provide SSH. Shared services or a dedicated IP? Reputation, which is very important?
I am getting an education out of this for sure. What was purchased was 2 domains and a 3 year small business hosting package at hostpapa. I has become quite clear that what I got was something like buying a car. Didn't specify that I wanted a steering wheel - - - so I need to add this. The website builder program - - I didn't use it in the first year - - - its now an extra fee. Sorry - - - in setting up a complicated small business there are a mountain of things to be done and the website was/is on the list, its just that money is quite short and time keeps disappearing and so things get done when they do. Its also frustrating when you sign up for x and the renewal is quite a large increase. One would think that the hosting companies might not want you to move.
I would not recommend self-hosting at home. There are too many rogue bots roaming around the world, and the possibility of hacking is near certain. Yes, if you keep up with all the updates and monitor your server carefully you can be ok, but I know that my hosting provider had to purchase additional software just to deal with DDOS attacks and other intrusions. Unless you want to take on the sys admin role, for me the hosting costs are well worthwhile. If you are with the right host, your site becomes more popular and you run out of ram it should be easy to upgrade.
Personally I'd rather concentrate on the web site, SEO and social media than futz with Apache settings, so would rather be on a host provider. The hosting costs can be pretty small, depending on what you purchase.
That was the idea. My server here is for managing my business - - - not for managing my website - - - that's what I wanted hosting for. The problem is that I want to experiment on the server here (set up various services at very least) and somehow I can't use these domains that I have paid for.
Likely its a case of me wanting too much and not knowing enough. I can change the not knowing enough but haven't been able to find information. My hosting company is quite good at offering a lot of information with much of it being 'non-useful'.
Thanking you for your consideration!!
Dee
On Mon, 30 Oct 2017 08:18:53 -0400 Don Tai via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I would also council to separate your domains from your hosting provider. If you have a dispute with your hosting provider you should be able to easily switch hosts. You cannot do this if your domains and hosting are from the same source. It is like separating your email address from your internet provider. Maybe you are lucky and the host provider has farmed this out to a domain names company? Of provided a domain name for free (transfer after one year)?
if you are not a registry or a registrar for your domain yourself, I agree a little bit :) as a some tld registry and as a few tld's registrar myself, personally i would rather trust me :) In the case of general home servers, some TLD's have a central registry, others have multiple registries, there are usually multiple registrars and any salient advice actually depends on what TLD we are talking about :) In the case of .ca for example, some registrars are "shell registrars" and they only operate an EPP system connected to a payment gateway :) 'hosting' is sub contracted even on the back of other registrars (who also offer their own hosting) and even then it could be a re-seller registrar that resells what the registrar already resells from say someone like Tucows... so, basically, ymmv but it all depends how long the piece of string is :)
Bots will try to hack into your web site, and if you have business stuff there that is a bonus for them. A clear separation between the internet and your internal network is always a good idea.
good general advice :) but it is not only bots, it could be some dude or dudess from n korea facing an impossible breach target, or your wife or husband :) and/or any number of other things... the Internetz is a very wild and busy place :) Andre
On 10/30/2017 08:18 AM, Don Tai via talk wrote:
I would also council to separate your domains from your hosting provider. If you have a dispute with your hosting provider you should be able to easily switch hosts. You cannot do this if your domains and hosting are from the same source. It is like separating your email address from your internet provider. Maybe you are lucky and the host provider has farmed this out to a domain names company? Of provided a domain name for free (transfer after one year)? I would agree with this. You should own your own domain and have it registered with a registrar who is not related to the hosting company your using.
I have seen lots of problems when companies don't own their domain and some form of billing dispute comes up. The domain is held for ransom and often quite effectively. Many registrars include in their basic services a simple DNS hosting capability so that you can avoid having to run your own DNS server with the attacks and patches that come with bind.
Bots will try to hack into your web site, and if you have business stuff there that is a bonus for them. A clear separation between the internet and your internal network is always a good idea.
Whatever you can do at home you should be able to set up on your host provider in a test environment. The host should be able to provide a linux session, just like at home.
Take nothing for granted when looking for a host provider. If it does not say backups and restores are available and free, then it is not provided. If not sure, then ask.
Web sites are very easy to put up and maintain, depending on the package you wish to use. Of course having less money means having to learn more.
Don
[snip] -- Alvin Starr || land: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
thanks for taking me off your list -- Ann Pohl On 2017-10-30 12:17, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
On 10/30/2017 08:18 AM, Don Tai via talk wrote:
I would also council to separate your domains from your hosting provider. If you have a dispute with your hosting provider you should be able to easily switch hosts. You cannot do this if your domains and hosting are from the same source. It is like separating your email address from your internet provider. Maybe you are lucky and the host provider has farmed this out to a domain names company? Of provided a domain name for free (transfer after one year)? I would agree with this. You should own your own domain and have it registered with a registrar who is not related to the hosting company your using.
I have seen lots of problems when companies don't own their domain and some form of billing dispute comes up. The domain is held for ransom and often quite effectively.
Many registrars include in their basic services a simple DNS hosting capability so that you can avoid having to run your own DNS server with the attacks and patches that come with bind.
Bots will try to hack into your web site, and if you have business stuff there that is a bonus for them. A clear separation between the internet and your internal network is always a good idea.
Whatever you can do at home you should be able to set up on your host provider in a test environment. The host should be able to provide a linux session, just like at home.
Take nothing for granted when looking for a host provider. If it does not say backups and restores are available and free, then it is not provided. If not sure, then ask.
Web sites are very easy to put up and maintain, depending on the package you wish to use. Of course having less money means having to learn more.
Don [snip]
Many awesome tips posted to this thread !! The one about the two-phase TTL change (not included in this reply) has been added to my DNS bag of tricks. * * * * * * My personal experience -- you can go through a lot of pain and anguish on the way to finding good Internet hosting service providers. I used to say the Internet is a jungle, but really, it's more like a sewer. One observation: web hosting services can very significantly in the market they are addressing. For example, I currently maintain accounts with two (2) hosting providers: www.siteground.com (SG) -- For general email and website hosting and website building tools (I'm NOT a power website builder), I use SG for hosting: 1. my email (POP3 inbox, and SMTP), 2. a few (home brewed) web pages, and 3. a few FTP accounts for exchanging files. I pay SG annually US $323.40 (no tax collected). May strike some people as expensive, but for me, rock-solid reliability (especially for email hosting !!) and excellent technical support are prime. SG does have less expensive plans. Any hosting service can have an outage, but so far SG has been great for reliability. Also I love cPanel for admin work. www.elastichosts.com (EH) -- For working more closely to the "metal" of hosting service hardware, I use EH QEMU / KVM virtual machines. I can run more VMs, but presently I have two (2) VMs: 1. stock debian Linux for hosting a home brew website with transactions and a database, currently under development (not yet online), 2. cool DragonFlyBSD (dfly) flavour of Unix, with its native HAMMER1 (soon to go to HAMMER2) filesystem. The idea is to eventually migrate the website (not yet online) from the Linux VM to the more performant (in theory:) dfly VM, to squeeze more value from hosting fees. I pay EH annually US $541.60 (plus 13% tax collected) (discounted @ 12 months hosting for the price of 10). Again, may strike some people as expensive, but for me, rock-solid reliability and excellent technical support are prime. Haven't done much work with the EH VMs lately, but every time I check in, they just start and run. EH has many server sites, my stuff runs on EH servers in Toronto. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: Don Tai via talk To: o1bigtenor Cc: GTALUG Talk Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 8:18 AM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Web hosting questions I would also council to separate your domains from your hosting provider. If you have a dispute with your hosting provider you should be able to easily switch hosts. You cannot do this if your domains and hosting are from the same source. It is like separating your email address from your internet provider. Maybe you are lucky and the host provider has farmed this out to a domain names company? Of provided a domain name for free (transfer after one year)? Bots will try to hack into your web site, and if you have business stuff there that is a bonus for them. A clear separation between the internet and your internal network is always a good idea. Whatever you can do at home you should be able to set up on your host provider in a test environment. The host should be able to provide a linux session, just like at home. Take nothing for granted when looking for a host provider. If it does not say backups and restores are available and free, then it is not provided. If not sure, then ask. Web sites are very easy to put up and maintain, depending on the package you wish to use. Of course having less money means having to learn more. Don On 30 October 2017 at 07:39, o1bigtenor <o1bigtenor@gmail.com> wrote: Greetings On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 6:27 AM, Don Tai <dontai.canada@gmail.com> wrote: Web hosting can be purchased on the occasional sale, such as Black Friday, so renewal costs can be much higher. I always compare renewal costs and not the initial loss leader signup cost. The 2.7 times higher hosting costs may be valid, depending on the hosting services provided. Moe importantly, what did you buy? Some hosts don't even provide on demand backup, and some hosts will charge you for a restore. Some hosts don't provide SSH. Shared services or a dedicated IP? Reputation, which is very important? I am getting an education out of this for sure. What was purchased was 2 domains and a 3 year small business hosting package at hostpapa. I has become quite clear that what I got was something like buying a car. Didn't specify that I wanted a steering wheel - - - so I need to add this. The website builder program - - I didn't use it in the first year - - - its now an extra fee. Sorry - - - in setting up a complicated small business there are a mountain of things to be done and the website was/is on the list, its just that money is quite short and time keeps disappearing and so things get done when they do. Its also frustrating when you sign up for x and the renewal is quite a large increase. One would think that the hosting companies might not want you to move. I would not recommend self-hosting at home. There are too many rogue bots roaming around the world, and the possibility of hacking is near certain. Yes, if you keep up with all the updates and monitor your server carefully you can be ok, but I know that my hosting provider had to purchase additional software just to deal with DDOS attacks and other intrusions. Unless you want to take on the sys admin role, for me the hosting costs are well worthwhile. If you are with the right host, your site becomes more popular and you run out of ram it should be easy to upgrade. Personally I'd rather concentrate on the web site, SEO and social media than futz with Apache settings, so would rather be on a host provider. The hosting costs can be pretty small, depending on what you purchase. That was the idea. My server here is for managing my business - - - not for managing my website - - - that's what I wanted hosting for. The problem is that I want to experiment on the server here (set up various services at very least) and somehow I can't use these domains that I have paid for. Likely its a case of me wanting too much and not knowing enough. I can change the not knowing enough but haven't been able to find information. My hosting company is quite good at offering a lot of information with much of it being 'non-useful'. Thanking you for your consideration!! Dee ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 7:18 AM, Don Tai <dontai.canada@gmail.com> wrote:
I would also council to separate your domains from your hosting provider. If you have a dispute with your hosting provider you should be able to easily switch hosts. You cannot do this if your domains and hosting are from the same source. It is like separating your email address from your internet provider. Maybe you are lucky and the host provider has farmed this out to a domain names company? Of provided a domain name for free (transfer after one year)?
Bots will try to hack into your web site, and if you have business stuff there that is a bonus for them. A clear separation between the internet and your internal network is always a good idea.
Whatever you can do at home you should be able to set up on your host provider in a test environment. The host should be able to provide a linux session, just like at home.
Take nothing for granted when looking for a host provider. If it does not say backups and restores are available and free, then it is not provided. If not sure, then ask.
Web sites are very easy to put up and maintain, depending on the package you wish to use. Of course having less money means having to learn more.
Hello Don Yes - - - its clear that these two functions need to be separated. They will be in the time leading up to renewal which happens later this year. The web site stuff is quite challenging. I had wanted to use a LAPP stack but the hosting firm only supports MySql. (Using Postgresql in another application and wanted to not have to learn the differences along with all the other 'goodies'.) The web seems very much like a used car lot selling older cars - - - not very straightforward at the best of times IMO! Dee
On Mon, Oct 30, 2017 at 7:18 AM, Don Tai <dontai.canada@gmail.com> wrote:
I would also council to separate your domains from your hosting provider. If you have a dispute with your hosting provider you should be able to easily switch hosts. You cannot do this if your domains and hosting are from the same source. It is like separating your email address from your internet provider. Maybe you are lucky and the host provider has farmed this out to a domain names company? Of provided a domain name for free (transfer after one year)?
This separation will be happening when its time to renew the domains later this year. Thanks for the advice!
Bots will try to hack into your web site, and if you have business stuff there that is a bonus for them. A clear separation between the internet and your internal network is always a good idea.
Whatever you can do at home you should be able to set up on your host provider in a test environment. The host should be able to provide a linux session, just like at home.
Take nothing for granted when looking for a host provider. If it does not say backups and restores are available and free, then it is not provided. If not sure, then ask.
Web sites are very easy to put up and maintain, depending on the package you wish to use. Of course having less money means having to learn more.
And with the learning more isn't the learning curve wonderful - - - sometimes it feels like its a vertical line!! Thanks for the encouragement and ideas! Dee
participants (8)
-
ac -
Alvin Starr -
annpohl＠xplornet.ca -
Don Tai -
James Knott -
Mauro Souza -
o1bigtenor -
Steve Petrie, P.Eng.