Thanks for the advice.  The MB is pre-UEFI, and maybe the sensible thing to do is to upgrade to a better MB+CPU and migrate as much of the hardware as will migrate.  I still have a lot on spinning disks, so something like a tower or mini-tower is not the right form factor to have -- unless, of course, I chuck all the older hardware, and move to nvme/ssd configuration (these days cases don't seem to come with lots of drive bays).  I've never tried a Beelink, but I have a delightful Minisforum that seems to be the wave of the future.  Old towers with spinning disks are certainly the wave of the past. On 1/19/24 17:53, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

| From: Peter King via talk<talk@gtalug.org>

I don't remember you telling us what the older (now also failing) machine model is. AMIbios from 2009 suggests to me that it predates UEFI. If so, it probably isn't worth investing any time to fix it. Publish or perish (unless you have tenure)!

(This system's problem could be as simple as a broken power switch.)

A notebook or a miniPC might be a good stopgap. You get to tune that suggestion to match your requirements. Shopping too hard will waste your time too.

A mini PC ought to just plug into your exiting desk setup. When you are no longer using it, it takes little space in you cupboard, bookshelf or the back of your desk. It is easy to stick in a bag to carry to another site.

These BeeLink Mini PCs look OK to me but are not as deeply discounted as they have been. You might well prefer Minisforum. Support isn't a strong suit (but then your experience with Lenovo has been disappointing).

All these are from amazon.ca. The listings have coupons that come and go so the prices wander. And there are so many listings of the same devices from the same vendor! Some have an additional 10%-of-list-price coupon that I cannot see because I've used mine up.

<https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.ca%2FBeelink-Computer-4-0GHz-Screen-Display%2Fdp%2FB09SYSPSSM%2Fref%3Dsr_1_12&data=05%7C02%7Cpeter.king%40utoronto.ca%7Ca97ddf7fa2d44dd6541c08dc19417faf%7C78aac2262f034b4d9037b46d56c55210%7C0%7C0%7C638413016304615956%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KiIfTsoqjCi3rn4MMBit7E0irCAeb6bGTr51tb2ISCE%3D&reserved=0> $367 Ryzen 5 5560u 16G RAM / 500G NVMe SSD This is a notebook CPU. Low power in both sense. Easy to update RAM and SSD but you cannot add, only replace.

<https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.ca%2Fdp%2FB09P112VZJ%2Fref%3Dsyn_sd_onsite_desktop_0&data=05%7C02%7Cpeter.king%40utoronto.ca%7Ca97ddf7fa2d44dd6541c08dc19417faf%7C78aac2262f034b4d9037b46d56c55210%7C0%7C0%7C638413016304772226%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=GE0fYHxsPIWUjFCH9Ti90q1GYjwFBiG39Ii11bQAnt0%3D&reserved=0> $329 after coupon; same as above.

<https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.ca%2FBeelink-Computers-5600H-32GB-500GB%2Fdp%2FB0C3VKV6DJ%2Fref%3Dsr_1_2_sspa&data=05%7C02%7Cpeter.king%40utoronto.ca%7Ca97ddf7fa2d44dd6541c08dc19417faf%7C78aac2262f034b4d9037b46d56c55210%7C0%7C0%7C638413016304772226%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=fo48%2B7lWtqgEhYznIOWb7Q0cg7OfL2%2BrhT%2FB93HXE5c%3D&reserved=0> $570 after coupon Ryzen 7 5800h 32G RAM / 1T NVMe SSD This ups each of the specs in the previous box.

<https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.ca%2FBeelink-7840HS-Computer-Desktop-Display%2Fdp%2FB0CH7XHM7M%2Fref%3Dsr_1_5&data=05%7C02%7Cpeter.king%40utoronto.ca%7Ca97ddf7fa2d44dd6541c08dc19417faf%7C78aac2262f034b4d9037b46d56c55210%7C0%7C0%7C638413016304772226%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=YnmSEYMuqZk5Y3uiwLT5UpPVchyXfwhKxis2HfcrpIM%3D&reserved=0> $749.99 after coupon Ryzen 7 7840HS 32G RAM / 1T NVMe This adds a better processor with a better iGPU and faster RAM.

Fun alternative: Best Buy has the Asus Ally gaming console, open box, for $549.99. It has essentially the same guts as the 7840HS system but only 16G RAM and 512G SSD. It has only one port (USB C / USB 4 / power) but a docking station fixes that. --- Post to this mailing listtalk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing listhttps://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgtalug.org%2Fmailman%2Flistinfo%2Ftalk&data=05%7C02%7Cpeter.king%40utoronto.ca%7Ca97ddf7fa2d44dd6541c08dc19417faf%7C78aac2262f034b4d9037b46d56c55210%7C0%7C0%7C638413016304772226%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=mAXaFHcCcw7zmy5lK%2BlW%2Fn0LfWumaf2HFbMAKC7x%2Bfs%3D&reserved=0

-- Peter King peter.king@utoronto.ca Department of Philosophy 170 St. George Street #521 The University of Toronto (416)-946-3170 ofc Toronto, ON M5R 2M8 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42

On Fri, 19 Jan 2024 22:44:01 -0500 Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

I have a client who buys systems from https://www.servergiant.net/ I have also bought systems from them. The prices will not be as cheap as a minipc from amazon but you can get a decent HP or Dell tower system.

<snip snip>

...

On 1/19/24 17:53, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

...

| From: Peter King via talk<talk@gtalug.org> <snip snip> <https://can01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.amazon.ca%2FBeelink-Computer-4-0GHz-Screen-Display%2Fdp%2FB09SYSPSSM%2Fref%3Dsr_1_12&data=05%7C02%7Cpeter.king%40utoronto.ca%7Ca97ddf7fa2d44dd6541c08dc19417faf%7C78aac2262f034b4d9037b46d56c55210%7C0%7C0%7C638413016304615956%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=KiIfTsoqjCi3rn4MMBit7E0irCAeb6bGTr51tb2ISCE%3D&reserved=0>

look at these two "links" above, see whence they came, what they were and what actually happened :) to me, it is interesting that there are so very many things (and increasing at an alarming pace every and each passing day) things that are "helping" us as society or FORCING help on us, to"make our lives better" (some help is truly pervasive and even invasive, more like : Use this help or go away) by doing and increasing list of various things "for" us, most of the time these are creeping "little changes" and "improvements" and 99% of the time nobody really notices (or even cares) yesterday I went for blood tests and I realised that, wow, so many people may actually legally receive my private data. If I do not like this or if I wish to object to something in a designed system, where a multinational corp is involved, I have the choice of simply not using the service and no other choice at all. I have lost some freedoms, protections and privace in return for convenience of quickly seeing results on an 'app'. In the past I could have elected to receive paper or printed results or have one piece of paper sent to a medical doctor. So instead of planting a sustainable amount of usable trees, in a carbon neutral way, the pond is being pulled from right under the duck. Speaking of "Ducks" and "Trees" - will we still be eating these eventually and in the far future? What are we as human beings now actually busy doing to ourselves? We are choosing to be in the matrix pods? or what are we choosing (are we even aware that we are choosing this?) - everything is going to be electronically connected and sooner than I even thought (I thought we have at least until 2060 odd, but I was so very wrong, maybe the singularity is around 2032 after all?) So, imo, Google and Microsoft already relays over 80% of all internet ham email. They achieved this not because they are "better", more ethical or more trusted but by many other methods. Many of these methods are imnsho, pure evil, not ethical and really not nice. If any of these corporations (both of whom hate me) wishes to challenge me in public I will gladly discuss this in public, using actual data, actual examples all of which should be usable in a court of law) Anyway, so to issues of user trust: To me, it seems that utoronto.ca uses/pays Microsoft and outgoing emails, opens and reads all email Even https links in already replied to chains (which are now seen as outgoing links from the users@ utoronto.ca - are clearly - visited, indexed, checked/scanned (probably Microsoft would say : the websites/domains/links etc are scanned for malware, I would say that Microsoft has previously, and in the past, simply 'blocked', 'broken' or done other things to various websites it does not 'like') It does so many other things as well, one small one being 'brand dilution' as readers and senders of emails and DM etc etc - where names are re-written to the Microsoft or Facebook or whatever abbreviated link brand name - this serves to underline the brand doing the re-writing - as the "safe" link in the above example - COULD easily been displayed as AMAZON (with the actual a href -> protection.outlook.com/ as in example: <a href='https:outlook.com'>https://amazon.com</a> Which would then just display the original link, but with an outlook landing. BUT - Microsoft 'chooses' to display : protection.outlook.com?var=very.long.&data=ascii.long.long.long.long.long.long.long.long.long.long.long Apparently because users@ utoronto.ca (and microsoft users) send out malware links and this is a way that Microsoft chooses to try to protect recipients and their users from malware/abuse - instead of their users or recipients relying on other software, like browsers, local anti virus, local script blockers, etc (taking the control away) Of course it is still bad to receive spam emails and scam emails from Microsoft users, even with "safe" scammer links. - this does not much for that and seems to mostly do things for the brand name and 'feelings' there is of course a lot more and many other issues, but I guess that society seems to not care about losing their small little freedoms and creating one or two corporations which will eventually "make all of our lives just a lot easier". We are all losing these freedoms a nano meter at a time, very similar to boiling lobsters. Science fiction : truth is truly stranger than fiction. More scary is that, imnsho, we are already past the point of no return. We as global planetary society - are going to harvest the very nature of humanity, planted over some decades. It is eventually going to be a very bitter harvest.

The motherboard on the failing system is a non-UEFI Asus P6T.  The CPU is an Intel i7 950.  I have 32GB of Crucial DDR3 RAM in it.  The whole thing dates from 2009/2010 or so.  I'm pretty sure I replaced the motherboard at least once already.  There are four or five spinning disks of various sizes and ages. A few minor updates. First, the problem remains the same: I never get through the POST, much less to the BIOS.  No beep codes (or beeps at all), no display, no nothing; it just remains silent as the fans spin. Second, there seems to be power to the computer.  The internal MB power indicator lights up, the fans spin up, the hard drives seem to all spin up, and the graphics card at least lights up. Third, I tried putting in a fresh CMOS battery.  Still nothing. Fourth, I tried swapping the memory around in various configurations.  Still nothing. Next up I will see if I can find a graphics card to swap out the current one for testing. If that makes no difference, then there are only major components left as suspects -- the motherboard itself and the power supply (though that seems to be working: see above).  I don't have an extra power supply, but this one seems to pass the smell test.  That leaves the motherboard. I don't really know how to test a bare motherboard.  Is there anything else I should be trying before I give up? (Where "giving up" means looking for another computer I can migrate all/most/some of the existing hardware to -- maybe an old tower that has room for lots of spinning drives.) Thanks for any advice! -- Peter King peter.king@utoronto.ca Department of Philosophy 170 St. George Street #521 The University of Toronto (416)-946-3170 ofc Toronto, ON M5R 2M8 CANADA http://individual.utoronto.ca/pking/ ========================================================================= GPG keyID 0x7587EC42 (2B14 A355 46BC 2A16 D0BC 36F5 1FE6 D32A 7587 EC42) gpg --keyserver pgp.mit.edu --recv-keys 7587EC42

| From: Peter King via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | | The motherboard on the failing system is a non-UEFI Asus P6T.  The CPU is an | Intel i7 950.  I have 32GB of Crucial DDR3 RAM in it.  The whole thing dates | from 2009/2010 or so.  I'm pretty sure I replaced the motherboard at least | once already.  There are four or five spinning disks of various sizes and | ages. Wow, that's an old processor. Introduced in second quarter of 2009. Intel says that the max RAM is 24 G. The MB has 6 sockets -- an oddity of that generation of Core processors. <https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/37150/intel-core-i7-950-processor-8m-cache-3-06-ghz-4-80-gt-s-intel-qpi.html> <https://www.asus.com/us/supportonly/p6t/helpdesk_manual/> This processor uses a lot of power: 130 W TDP. Its fans probably make a significant noise. | A few minor updates. | | First, the problem remains the same: I never get through the POST, much less | to the BIOS.  No beep codes (or beeps at all), no display, no nothing; it just | remains silent as the fans spin. | | Second, there seems to be power to the computer.  The internal MB power | indicator lights up, the fans spin up, the hard drives seem to all spin up, | and the graphics card at least lights up. I wonder if one of the power supply "rails" is bust. The power supply supplies several different voltages, all on different rails. Sometimes a heavily-used voltage is supplied on more than one rail. One place that old systems deteriorate is in the connectors. Unplugging and plugging things in a few times can clean the contacts and sometime get them working again. I have a power supply tester. Who knows it it is useful? Something like this (not a recommendation for this listing): <https://vi.aliexpress.com/item/1005001359834960.html> They are fairly inexpensive. You could borrow mine if you were willing to pick it up and drop it off. Oh: and I have to check if I can find it. I'm near Yonge and York mills. Alternatively you could check with a voltmeter (not as easy as you'd think). | (Where "giving up" means looking for another computer I can migrate | all/most/some of the existing hardware to -- maybe an old tower that has room | for lots of spinning drives.) How many spinning drives? The more you have, the fewer systems are available. Other than that, there are a million surplus systems that are cheap and faster than yours. You might find too few SATA ports on a new MB. The current trend is to put lots of drives in a NAS. Some you can run as a JBOD (Just a Bunch of Disks). That might be a good long-term strategy. Too bad they are so expensive. We have a USB dock for bare SATA drives. That's OK (not great) for accessing the half dozen or so hard drives with TV programs recorded by MythTV (recording stopped about 6 years ago).