Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Jul 25, 2016 10:50 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Warm Greetings To GTALUG,
Please forgive the long email. -- have to provide some background.
BACKGROUND -- BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC
I usually have a couple of pieces of advise for home builds and integration. Unfortunately the first piece is no longer relevant. That was was go to active surplus and purchase a variety of items. Board standoffs, plastic washers and odd screws and ties. However they have closed both locations and it doesn't look like there is a comeback in the works. I have yet to find another place with such a comprehensive stock of the little odds and ends someone night need. The other is to have a build buddy, someone to bounce things around with when there is an unexpected problem. I do have this suggestion tho. Make friends with Hacklab. I haven't visited the facility so I don't know if they have storage for a build which may last longer than one day. Also I have no idea of the fee structure to use the space, but there are others on the list with more in-depth knowledge than I. Scott Sullivan perhaps? HTH Russell <snip the end>
On 2016-07-25 03:34 PM, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
active surplus …
I have yet to find another place with such a comprehensive stock of the little odds and ends someone night need.
True enough, but Graham (the former manager of Active Surplus) plus the skilled facilitators of Little Dada are trying to find space for a relaunch. More details here: OGP ("Operation Gorilla Phoenix") Electronics & Surplus <http://www.greenenterprises.ca/OGP.html> Other places that might have the little bits like standoffs: * the elecronics place in the basement of the College Home Hardware, near Spadina * Above All surplus on Bloor near Euclid (Steve has some very vintage/niche bits indeed. His phone is disconnected, so don't try calling) * A-1 Surplus out in the wilds of Etobicoke is a vast cavern of *stuff*. I'm told that patient browsing rewards with some excellent finds*. If you plan ahead and have a few weeks before a build, you can buy selection boxes of hardware on eBay from Hong Kong, and they'll arrive in a few weeks. I am never organized enough to do this. Stewart *: I'm still trying to round up a trip out to A-1 soon. Have vehicle, can travel, will be spending a couple of hours browsing the chip racks looking for cooler hardware than the speech synths I found last time. cheers, Stewart
<snip>
* Above All surplus on Bloor near Euclid (Steve has some very vintage/niche bits indeed. His phone is disconnected, so don't try calling)
Thanks, thats good to know. I had tried calling and assumed they had closed. This was my goto place for refurbished 20/30/40mb Fujitsu drives. Fujitsu had a lot of those drives returned because FAT systems reported too many bad sectors. I never had a problem using ext on Linux systems, they reported the correct sizes and worked fine. In the 90's I use to overclock old boards and would toast stuff regularly. I was always dashing in and asking for some odd widget. Often they had it, or a reasonable facsimile.
* A-1 Surplus out in the wilds of Etobicoke is a vast cavern of *stuff*. I'm told that patient browsing rewards with some excellent finds*.
If you plan ahead and have a few weeks before a build, you can buy selection boxes of hardware on eBay from Hong Kong, and they'll arrive in a few weeks. I am never organized enough to do this.
Stewart
*: I'm still trying to round up a trip out to A-1 soon. Have vehicle, can travel, will be spending a couple of hours browsing the chip racks looking for cooler hardware than the speech synths I found last time.
cheers, Stewart --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Sent from mobile.
* A-1 Surplus out in the wilds of Etobicoke is a vast cavern of *stuff*. I'm told that patient browsing rewards with some excellent finds*.
If you plan ahead and have a few weeks before a build, you can buy selection boxes of hardware on eBay from Hong Kong, and they'll arrive in a few weeks. I am never organized enough to do this.
Stewart
*: I'm still trying to round up a trip out to A-1 soon. Have vehicle, can travel, will be spending a couple of hours browsing the chip racks looking for cooler hardware than the speech synths I found last time.
I visited A1 surplus some months ago and they sure have a lot of stuff, I didn't see anything very exciting. It struck me as a bit pricey, too. Above All however has some useful stuff. P. -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325
Hello Stewart, Thanks for your response. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Stewart C. Russell via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> To: <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 4:57 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On 2016-07-25 03:34 PM, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
active surplus …
I have yet to find another place with such a comprehensive stock of the little odds and ends someone night need.
True enough, but Graham (the former manager of Active Surplus) plus the skilled facilitators of Little Dada are trying to find space for a relaunch. More details here: OGP ("Operation Gorilla Phoenix") Electronics & Surplus <http://www.greenenterprises.ca/OGP.html>
Other places that might have the little bits like standoffs:
* the elecronics place in the basement of the College Home Hardware, near Spadina
* Above All surplus on Bloor near Euclid (Steve has some very vintage/niche bits indeed. His phone is disconnected, so don't try calling)
* A-1 Surplus out in the wilds of Etobicoke is a vast cavern of *stuff*. I'm told that patient browsing rewards with some excellent finds*.
If I do decide to build the new Linux PC myself, I will check out all these interesting cources you cite.
If you plan ahead and have a few weeks before a build, you can buy selection boxes of hardware on eBay from Hong Kong, and they'll arrive in a few weeks. I am never organized enough to do this.
I donlt really have a few weeks to spare. I need to get the Linux PC up and running, so I can get back to the rest of my life.
Stewart
*: I'm still trying to round up a trip out to A-1 soon. Have vehicle, can travel, will be spending a couple of hours browsing the chip racks looking for cooler hardware than the speech synths I found last time.
Speech synthesizers !! Ahhhh. How I envy the young. I wish I still had a few decades left on the meter, so I could mess around with interesting stuff like speech synth ...
cheers, Stewart --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> | I donlt really have a few weeks to spare. I need to get the Linux PC up | and running, so I can get back to the rest of my life. If you are not used to Linux, and you are used to Windows XP, and you don't have weeks to spare, you really should think carefully about switching to Linux. If you have a bunch of applications that you are used to, you may well find the Linux substitutes unsatisfactory. After all, you have likely invested a bunch of time in learning the old programs. You may even have important data in a proprietary format, tied to a program that isn't available on Linux. Switching environments is often a challenge and a learning experience. It is a bit risky to do it in a rush. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of things in favour of Linux. That's what's been on my desktop since before Windows XP. ================ Assuming that you are intending to use a legitimate copy of Windows 7, you may well find it cheaper to buy a suitable machine from a big PC manufacturer. Their incremental cost for Windows is apparently close to $0 rather than the $100+ you have to pay to add it to your own build. A machine you build yourself is quite possibly better, but I don't know that you'd actually notice the difference. (I have assembled machines for myself but more often buy off-the-shelf machines when I see good sales.) ================ Just to amplify what Len said: - external serial modems are very standard and well-supported - FAX is less standard. With care, you can select a supported modem. But FAX has died, thank goodness. About once a year I find it would be handy to send a FAX, but it is usually possible to just say that you cannot do it. - I don't know about external USB modems. With luck, they emulate serial modems. I have one in my cupboard "just in case". - avoid "WinModems". Those require proprietary drivers. Some have been reverse-engineered but I would not trust the drivers to have been well-maintained (my opinion is not based on experience). I would not expect serial modems to be worth the bother. ================ I have no idea of the longevity or robustness of blu-ray disks. Consider diversifying to external HDDs. The LG drive supports "M-DISC" media. They supposedly have very long life. ================ Don't retail Processors come with coolers? Generally, they are OK (not outstanding) -- good enough. ================ 2 x 4G RAM is a waste of memory sockets. Go for higher density. ================ debian (quirk: no capital letter on the front) is a good OS. It might not be the best intro to Linux. People seem to recommend Mint. I've never used it. If you don't have a broadband internet connection, all sorts of things that I don't notice might become problems. Like updates. ================ Good luck and have fun.
On Jul 26, 2016 9:27 PM, "D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org>
| I don't really have a few weeks to spare. I need to get the Linux PC up | and running, so I can get back to the rest of my life.
<snip>
Just to amplify what Len said:
- external serial modems are very standard and well-supported
I believe as a general rule of thumb any Hayes compatable modem will work with Linux. I've not tested this tho.
- FAX is less standard. With care, you can select a supported modem. But FAX has died, thank goodness. About once a year I find it would be handy to send a FAX, but it is usually possible to just say that you cannot do it.
A fax is still considered a legal transmission, that is a fax to fax transmission is deemed to be accepted by the recipient. A scan of a document attached to an email, for legal purposes requires confirmation by the recipient. I note that the Law Society of Upper Canada is introducing new rules regarding privileged email sent in legal proceedings. CRA won't accept document submissions by email but a Fax is acceptable. I think this has to do with the chain of evidence in proceedings. For the few faxes I do send I use FaxZero.com. You can send three free faxes a day, limited to three pages or pay a premium to send more. They attach a fairly discrete advert to the cover page.
- I don't know about external USB modems. With luck, they emulate serial modems. I have one in my cupboard "just in case".
I tinkered with GSM tethering. I did an install with the phone tethered and linux found the phones modem and created the proper serial nodes at the time. On reboot, I had to fool around with usb modeswitching from storage to modem using a udev rule.
- avoid "WinModems". Those require proprietary drivers. Some have
<snip the middle>
If you don't have a broadband internet connection, all sorts of things that I don't notice might become problems. Like updates.
I updated the unit I referred to above using the phones modem for about a year. Even when I went over my Data plan (6gb high speed the rest throttled to 30kbs) I had no problems. I could even watch YouTube as long as I used low res and preloaded for a couple of minutes.
================
Good luck and have fun. --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Russell Sent from mobile.
On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 08:32:51AM -0400, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
I believe as a general rule of thumb any Hayes compatible modem will work with Linux. I've not tested this tho.
All Hayes is, is the AT commands. How you speak serial to the device is the actual problem. USB and internal makes that potentially difficult. Of course in a winmodem, there is nothing to talk to, the commands go from your application to another piece of software which then talks to the sound chip that interfaces with the phone line.
A fax is still considered a legal transmission, that is a fax to fax transmission is deemed to be accepted by the recipient. A scan of a document attached to an email, for legal purposes requires confirmation by the recipient.
Given the number of fax recipients that are software these days, that is probably a horrible assumption. -- Len Sorensen
On Jul 27, 2016 3:26 PM, "Lennart Sorensen" <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 08:32:51AM -0400, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
I believe as a general rule of thumb any Hayes compatible modem will
work
with Linux. I've not tested this tho.
All Hayes is, is the AT commands. How you speak serial to the device is the actual problem. USB and internal makes that potentially difficult.
Well the fundamental problem is when the signal compression is done by the OS rather than the modem hardware itself. If the modem sends the info that it will be handling compression it tends to be recognized by linux as a serial device and connectivity can be handled in config files.
Of course in a winmodem, there is nothing to talk to, the commands go from your application to another piece of software which then talks to the sound chip that interfaces with the phone line.
A fax is still considered a legal transmission, that is a fax to fax transmission is deemed to be accepted by the recipient. A scan of a document attached to an email, for legal purposes requires confirmation by the recipient.
Given the number of fax recipients that are software these days, that is probably a horrible assumption.
I'm pretty sure a valid CSID with an corresponding electronic document in tiff format, which is then printed to paper, is accepted by the courts on affidavit of service. It's hardly an assumption, it's more like a trusted chain transaction record.
-- Len Sorensen
Russell Sent from mobile
On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 04:20:32PM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote:
Well the fundamental problem is when the signal compression is done by the OS rather than the modem hardware itself. If the modem sends the info that it will be handling compression it tends to be recognized by linux as a serial device and connectivity can be handled in config files.
This has nothing to do with compression. Comrpession is just one tiny part of available modem standards. The issue is that many cheap modems are just a sound chip with a transformer and a relay connected to a phone line. The actual modulating and demodulating of bits to the phone line is done in software and play through the sound chip. There is no modem hardware at all. -- Len Sorensen
Hello Russell, Thanks for your response. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell Reiter" <rreiter91@gmail.com> To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org>; "D. Hugh Redelmeier" <hugh@mimosa.com> Cc: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 8:32 AM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Jul 26, 2016 9:27 PM, "D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org>
| I don't really have a few weeks to spare. I need to get the Linux PC up | and running, so I can get back to the rest of my life.
<snip>
Just to amplify what Len said:
- external serial modems are very standard and well-supported
I believe as a general rule of thumb any Hayes compatable modem will work with Linux. I've not tested this tho.
I'll keep this in mind. <snip>
I tinkered with GSM tethering. I did an install with the phone tethered and linux found the phones modem and created the proper serial nodes at the time. On reboot, I had to fool around with usb modeswitching from storage to modem using a udev rule.
My head is spinning. Given that I'm still using dial-up on my current Windows XP system, no one will be surprised to learn that I carry no mobile and hope to make it all the way to my conference with the "Grim Reaper" and never, ever walk around with some oligarchic comms carrier knowing where I am.
- avoid "WinModems". Those require proprietary drivers. Some have
<snip the middle>
If you don't have a broadband internet connection, all sorts of things that I don't notice might become problems. Like updates.
I updated the unit I referred to above using the phones modem for about a year. Even when I went over my Data plan (6gb high speed the rest throttled to 30kbs) I had no problems. I could even watch YouTube as long as I used low res and preloaded for a couple of minutes.
Interesting. And encouraging. Maybe I can hold out a while longer, and keep using dial-up with the new Linux PC, postponing the extra expense of DSL versus dial-up. I pay today $15 / mo. (+taxes) for dial-up access. My ISP (Start.ca) wants $40 / mo. (plus taxes) for 5 Mbs DSL service.
================
Good luck and have fun. --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Russell Sent from mobile.
On 28/07/16 01:50 PM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
Interesting. And encouraging. Maybe I can hold out a while longer, and keep using dial-up with the new Linux PC, postponing the extra expense of DSL versus dial-up. I pay today $15 / mo. (+taxes) for dial-up access. My ISP (Start.ca) wants $40 / mo. (plus taxes) for 5 Mbs DSL service.
If you are spending $15 per month on dial-up Internet, you are also spending something for your hard line. I was spending $60 per month my hard line until I realized everyone in my home had cell phones and had made the hard line superfluous. Your hard line plus the dial-up service probably will not cost appreciably more and may end up costing less than a DSL or cable Internet service. You will also have a much better user experience with that compared to dial-up. Your stated goal of comparing the dial-up experience on XP to Linux is really pointless unless you run the test on the same hardware hitting the same host at the same time. Of course a 12 year old machine with a crufty Windows XP installation running a browser that does not support modern web standards is going to be slower than a modern machine running any modern operating system running any modern browser. It seems like a lot of bother to prove something of little consequence. If one of your concerns in sticking with dial-up is that you still want the XP machine to have Internet access, you could add a second network card to your new machine and have it act as a router/firewall/gateway for the XP machine, which is for the best anyway given that XP no longer gets security updates. You may be able to convert your Outlook mail to Thunderbird following this article. <http://kb.mozillazine.org/Import_.pst_files> Once you have converted, set up an IMAP server on the new Linux machine and store your mail in IMAP format. I do not remember when Microsoft switched to the .docx and .xlsx formats. If the default file extension in Office 2003 is .doc and .xls, it should be quite painless to convert those files to Libre/OpenOffice. The newer file formats are a bit trickier but it usually works without any problems because most people do not use features of Word or Excel that causes problems. I have only run into issues with heavily formatted documents and with Excel macros. I have built many systems since the late '80s. I have never bought a case that did not come with all the hardware I needed and I have never had a system not boot the first time I turned it on. The machine on which I am typing this, I assembled from components in Sep. 2009. I have since upgraded various components and I will probably assemble another machine this fall. If you can assemble IKEA furniture, you can assemble a PC. It sounds like you may want to experiment with different distributions. If so, you should consider going straight to 32GB of RAM for the nominal price difference over the lifespan of the machine so that you can play around with different distributions running in virtual machines. You can get by with 16GB of RAM but if your motherboard has only two DIMM slots, you will have to throw out both sticks to go to 32GB later and most people do not want to do that. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay + 1 647-778-8696
Hello Clifford, Thanks for your message. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "CLIFFORD ILKAY via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> To: <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 4:03 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On 28/07/16 01:50 PM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
Interesting. And encouraging. Maybe I can hold out a while longer, and keep using dial-up with the new Linux PC, postponing the extra expense of DSL versus dial-up. I pay today $15 / mo. (+taxes) for dial-up access. My ISP (Start.ca) wants $40 / mo. (plus taxes) for 5 Mbs DSL service.
If you are spending $15 per month on dial-up Internet, you are also spending something for your hard line. I was spending $60 per month my hard line until I realized everyone in my home had cell phones and had made the hard line superfluous. Your hard line plus the dial-up service probably will not cost appreciably more and may end up costing less than a DSL or cable Internet service. You will also have a much better user experience with that compared to dial-up.
I don't understand what you mean by "hard line". I use no "hard line" apart from my landline telephone service over the telco's twisted copper pair. The dial-up modem connects througn this same telephone landline (twisted copper pair) service. I use no cell phone. And there's nobody else here. What is "hard line" technology? Is this not just a generic term for DSL (over twisted coper pair) or cable or e.g. Bell Fibe? When I switch to DSL, the connection is going to use the same twisted copper pair, with some fancy new interface at the telco central office end, where "my" twisted copper pair terminates. My ISP will provide and setup the DSL modem at my end of the twisted copper pair.
Your stated goal of comparing the dial-up experience on XP to Linux is really pointless unless you run the test on the same hardware hitting the same host at the same time. Of course a 12 year old machine with a crufty Windows XP installation running a browser that does not support modern web standards is going to be slower than a modern machine running any modern operating system running any modern browser. It seems like a lot of bother to prove something of little consequence.
My main purpose is not curiosity. It's to minimize the psychological stress of the switchover from the Win XP PC to the new Linux PC. Please see my reply to Lennart where I explain this.
If one of your concerns in sticking with dial-up is that you still want the XP machine to have Internet access, you could add a second network card to your new machine and have it act as a router/firewall/gateway for the XP machine, which is for the best anyway given that XP no longer gets security updates.
Once I have switched to using the new Linux PC as my live production system, I hope I never ever need to connect the old Win XP to the Internet.
You may be able to convert your Outlook mail to Thunderbird following this article. <http://kb.mozillazine.org/Import_.pst_files> Once you have converted, set up an IMAP server on the new Linux machine and store your mail in IMAP format.
I prefer to avoid all such complications like IMAP. I plan to continue to use the same POP3 email hosting service I use now, fetch the email to the local Thunderbird installation, and delete the mail from the POP3 server.
I do not remember when Microsoft switched to the .docx and .xlsx formats. If the default file extension in Office 2003 is .doc and .xls, it should be quite painless to convert those files to Libre/OpenOffice. The newer file formats are a bit trickier but it usually works without any problems because most people do not use features of Word or Excel that causes problems. I have only run into issues with heavily formatted documents and with Excel macros.
In my Outlook Express mail store folder in the Win XP filesystem, I see only *.dbx files. I believe *.dbx is some kind of ancient FoxPro-like indexed file representation. If Thunderbird can import a complete Outlook Express email folder structure, from a Linux directory containing a copy of the Outlook Express mail store folder (with all its *.dbx files) then the mail should transfer over easily. I do wonder about implications of the difference in text line end conventions, between Windows and Linux. If Thunderbird cannot import the mail as I describe above, then what I would prefer to have, is a complete export of my Outlook Express emails, with each email in *.eml format, and the mail folder structure represented by a directory structure in the file system. This way I will have an open-standards-based archive of all my emails from the Win XP PC. Then I will need some kind of "loader" program that loads the equivalent email structure into Thunderbird, from this directory structure with *.eml files. Outlook Express lets me save an individual open email in the *.eml file format. But Outlook Express provides no way to bulk export the entire mail folder structure to *.eml representation. From my research (not from hands-on use) what Microsoft does provide, is an API on Win XP for a C / C++ programmer to walk the Outlook Express email folder tree, and extract emails. <snip>
It sounds like you may want to experiment with different distributions. If so, you should consider going straight to 32GB of RAM for the nominal price difference over the lifespan of the machine so that you can play around with different distributions running in virtual machines. You can get by with 16GB of RAM but if your motherboard has only two DIMM slots, you will have to throw out both sticks to go to 32GB later and most people do not want to do that.
The motherboard (ASRock Z97 EXTREME6 ATX LGA1150) has 4 x 240-pin DDR3 (Double Data Rate 3) DIMM slots, and supports Dual Channel Memory Technology. So I can start with 2 x 8 GB DIMMs (for 16 GB) and add later another 2 x 8 GB DIMMs (to get a total of 32 GB).
-- Regards,
Clifford Ilkay
+ 1 647-778-8696
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Jul 28, 2016 1:51 PM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
<snip>
Interesting. And encouraging. Maybe I can hold out a while longer, and
keep using dial-up with the new Linux PC, postponing the extra expense of DSL versus dial-up. I pay today $15 / mo. (+taxes) for dial-up access. My ISP (Start.ca) wants $40 / mo. (plus taxes) for 5 Mbs DSL service. This is a pretty comprehensive historical overview of the state of things. Lots of troubleshooting tips for linux users, including the dreaded boot windows first to initialize the modem and then reboot to linux. :-) http://www.tldp.org/HOWTO/html_single/Modem-HOWTO/
================
Good luck and have fun. --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Russell Sent from mobile.
On 26 July 2016 at 21:27, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org>
| I donlt really have a few weeks to spare. I need to get the Linux PC up | and running, so I can get back to the rest of my life.
If you are not used to Linux, and you are used to Windows XP, and you don't have weeks to spare, you really should think carefully about switching to Linux.
I wanted to back Hugh on a couple points: switching to Linux if you're not familiar with it isn't something to be done quickly. Windows 7/8/10 would also have a learning curve, but the proprietary programs he speculated you might have will work, whereas they probably won't with Linux. Linux is a fantastic OS and I encourage you to use it ... but expect a learning curve.
I have no idea of the longevity or robustness of blu-ray disks. Consider diversifying to external HDDs.
I nearly chimed in with this option earlier: my backup method is multiple external (spinning) HD drives, some of which are "portable," ie. 2.5". With rsync, full backups are very fast - after the initial synchronization. And with the 2.5" drives, off-site is very easy. I tote one to a friend's place most weekends. The initial cost may seem a bit high, but the capacity is immense (up to 4TB even on 2.5" these days), the backups are easy and fast, and the reliability is excellent. -- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com
On 07/27/16 09:31, Giles Orr via talk wrote:
On 26 July 2016 at 21:27, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org>
| I donlt really have a few weeks to spare. I need to get the Linux PC up | and running, so I can get back to the rest of my life.
If you are not used to Linux, and you are used to Windows XP, and you don't have weeks to spare, you really should think carefully about switching to Linux.
I wanted to back Hugh on a couple points: switching to Linux if you're not familiar with it isn't something to be done quickly. Windows 7/8/10 would also have a learning curve, but the proprietary programs he speculated you might have will work, whereas they probably won't with Linux.
Linux is a fantastic OS and I encourage you to use it ... but expect a learning curve.
I have no idea of the longevity or robustness of blu-ray disks. Consider diversifying to external HDDs.
I nearly chimed in with this option earlier: my backup method is multiple external (spinning) HD drives, some of which are "portable," ie. 2.5". With rsync, full backups are very fast - after the initial synchronization. And with the 2.5" drives, off-site is very easy. I tote one to a friend's place most weekends. The initial cost may seem a bit high, but the capacity is immense (up to 4TB even on 2.5" these days), the backups are easy and fast, and the reliability is excellent.
I agree with that option also. I do a nightly backup from root, etc, user accounts, git, wikis, media files and the place where I keep local scripts to a 2.0 TB eSata drive. I also rsync the firewalls etc and scripts directory to the drive. Every week, I rsync that drive to another 2.0 TB drive mounted USB. That drive comes home, gets updated, and then gets off-site again. The media collection on the drive also gets synced to the firewall router and the mythtv computer. One mark of paranoia, connecting the drive via eSata allows you to hide it in a physical sense. If a thief was to rip my PC from where it sits, they would most likely leave the drive, unless they are willing to follow cables, pull out heavy desk and attack suspicious bumps with screwdrivers. PS: A few years ago I noticed an interesting behaviour in Linux. When rsyncing hundreds of GB from the eSata to the USB mounted drive I found the file system to become unreliable and unmountable. A workaround that I now follow is to add an "--bwlimit=15000" in the rsync command, which ensures that the eSata doesn't get too far ahead of the USB drive. May be completely unnecessary now.. -- Michael Galea
On Wed 27 Jul 2016 12:08 -0400, Michael Galea via talk wrote:
On 07/27/16 09:31, Giles Orr via talk wrote:
On 26 July 2016 at 21:27, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I have no idea of the longevity or robustness of blu-ray disks. Consider diversifying to external HDDs.
I nearly chimed in with this option earlier: my backup method is multiple external (spinning) HD drives, some of which are "portable," ie. 2.5". With rsync, full backups are very fast - after the initial synchronization. And with the 2.5" drives, off-site is very easy. I tote one to a friend's place most weekends. The initial cost may seem a bit high, but the capacity is immense (up to 4TB even on 2.5" these days), the backups are easy and fast, and the reliability is excellent.
I agree with that option also.
I also agree. I have one of these: http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=1490 Sent from a computer. -- I am Loui
On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 12:08:56PM -0400, Michael Galea via talk wrote:
PS: A few years ago I noticed an interesting behaviour in Linux. When rsyncing hundreds of GB from the eSata to the USB mounted drive I found the file system to become unreliable and unmountable. A workaround that I now follow is to add an "--bwlimit=15000" in the rsync command, which ensures that the eSata doesn't get too far ahead of the USB drive. May be completely unnecessary now..
That's because USB gets disconnected and reconnected. So, /dev/sdc becomes /dev/sdd in the middle of copying. -- William
On Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 23:31 William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
PS: A few years ago I noticed an interesting behaviour in Linux. When rsyncing hundreds of GB from the eSata to the USB mounted drive I found
On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 12:08:56PM -0400, Michael Galea via talk wrote: the
file system to become unreliable and unmountable. A workaround that I now follow is to add an "--bwlimit=15000" in the rsync command, which ensures that the eSata doesn't get too far ahead of the USB drive. May be completely unnecessary now..
That's because USB gets disconnected and reconnected. So, /dev/sdc becomes /dev/sdd in the middle of copying.
I had an issue with a motherboard, sometimes a drive would come up sda or sdb. So I stuck labels on my partitions and used those in my fstab.
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 7:42 AM, Ivan Avery Frey via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 27, 2016, 23:31 William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 12:08:56PM -0400, Michael Galea via talk wrote:
PS: A few years ago I noticed an interesting behaviour in Linux. When rsyncing hundreds of GB from the eSata to the USB mounted drive I found the file system to become unreliable and unmountable. A workaround that I now follow is to add an "--bwlimit=15000" in the rsync command, which ensures that the eSata doesn't get too far ahead of the USB drive. May be completely unnecessary now..
That's because USB gets disconnected and reconnected. So, /dev/sdc becomes /dev/sdd in the middle of copying.
I had an issue with a motherboard, sometimes a drive would come up sda or sdb. So I stuck labels on my partitions and used those in my fstab.
If I understand correctly the present 'correct' way to refer to a drive is using its uuid. Any other method is recommended to be deprecated. (From linux-raid group notes and conversations.) Dee
On Wed, Jul 27, 2016 at 09:31:13AM -0400, Giles Orr via talk wrote:
I nearly chimed in with this option earlier: my backup method is multiple external (spinning) HD drives, some of which are "portable," ie. 2.5". With rsync, full backups are very fast - after the initial synchronization. And with the 2.5" drives, off-site is very easy. I tote one to a friend's place most weekends. The initial cost may seem a bit high, but the capacity is immense (up to 4TB even on 2.5" these days), the backups are easy and fast, and the reliability is excellent.
My backup now is multi-disk raid1 BTRFS, made up of leftover harddisks. I choose BTRFS because of "snapshot" feature. Before, I used to do daily, weekly, and monthly backups (rsync), which resulted in 3 separate copies. Now, I do daily backup, and then take snapshot daily, weekly, and monthy. -- William
Hello Giles, Thanks for your response. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Giles Orr via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Wednesday, July 27, 2016 9:31 AM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On 26 July 2016 at 21:27, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org>
| I donlt really have a few weeks to spare. I need to get the Linux PC up | and running, so I can get back to the rest of my life.
If you are not used to Linux, and you are used to Windows XP, and you don't have weeks to spare, you really should think carefully about switching to Linux.
I wanted to back Hugh on a couple points: switching to Linux if you're not familiar with it isn't something to be done quickly. Windows 7/8/10 would also have a learning curve, but the proprietary programs he speculated you might have will work, whereas they probably won't with Linux.
Linux is a fantastic OS and I encourage you to use it ... but expect a learning curve.
Please see my remarks to Hugh on the same subject. I look forward to enjoying the climb up that Linux learning curve. What I find especially encouraging about this GTALUG dialogue, is how careful everyone is being not to oversell the ease of the switch to Linux. If I were a very computer-naive user (I'm not) I would be very lucky to get with GTALUG for advice.
I have no idea of the longevity or robustness of blu-ray disks. Consider diversifying to external HDDs.
I nearly chimed in with this option earlier: my backup method is multiple external (spinning) HD drives, some of which are "portable," ie. 2.5". With rsync, full backups are very fast - after the initial synchronization. And with the 2.5" drives, off-site is very easy. I tote one to a friend's place most weekends. The initial cost may seem a bit high, but the capacity is immense (up to 4TB even on 2.5" these days), the backups are easy and fast, and the reliability is excellent.
"Easy, fast, reliable" sounds pretty tempting to me. Thanks to advice from GTALUG, I'm prettly close to abandoning my nostalgic love for SCSI tape backup :) If I can be comfortable with portable hard drive resistance to mechanical shock ... And if a 2.5" portable drive will fit in my very small off-site storage box ... I would need two portable backup hard drives (one on-site and one off-site). I estimate a cost of $375 for a SCSI controller card together with a (used) VXA tape drive. Plus the cost of tape cartridges, of course. So I'll have to see what 2 x 2.5" portable HDDs will cost. 1 TB capacity drives should be sufficient.
-- Giles http://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 01:51:33PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
"Easy, fast, reliable" sounds pretty tempting to me.
Thanks to advice from GTALUG, I'm prettly close to abandoning my nostalgic love for SCSI tape backup :)
If I can be comfortable with portable hard drive resistance to mechanical shock ... And if a 2.5" portable drive will fit in my very small off-site storage box ...
I would need two portable backup hard drives (one on-site and one off-site). I estimate a cost of $375 for a SCSI controller card together with a (used) VXA tape drive. Plus the cost of tape cartridges, of course. So I'll have to see what 2 x 2.5" portable HDDs will cost. 1 TB capacity drives should be sufficient.
I thought all modern tape drives were SAS these days. Hmm, VXA, that used to be exabyte, which was 8mm helical scan. After dealing with DDS I would never trust helical scan for my data. No way. Wears out tapes so fast and so unreliable. Well DDS was, although I guess those were 4mm tapes. It looks like VXA is better than that, but I still see it listed as "The most reliable helical scan", not "the most reliable tape format". It's too bad LTO is rather expensive to buy a drive for. Personally I do backups with rsnapshot accross the internet to my parents place, and their system does it to mine. Since the changes are not very big, the rsync doesn't need much bandwidth. My experience with USB drives is that 3.5" drives tend to fail when transported, while 2.5" drives are much more durable, but slower and of course smaller in capacity. Another annoyance with tape is that should your place burn down, you now have to locate another tape drive of the right type to read your backup again. That can be a hassle depending on how popular the model is. A USB drive is certainly a lot simpler that way being entirely self contained. -- Len Sorensen
Hello Lennart, Thanks for your message. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lennart Sorensen" <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 01:51:33PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
"Easy, fast, reliable" sounds pretty tempting to me.
<snip>
I thought all modern tape drives were SAS these days.
They are but SAS is way overkill for my purposes.
Hmm, VXA, that used to be exabyte, which was 8mm helical scan. After dealing with DDS I would never trust helical scan for my data. No way. Wears out tapes so fast and so unreliable. Well DDS was, although I guess those were 4mm tapes. It looks like VXA is better than that, but I still see it listed as "The most reliable helical scan", not "the most reliable tape format".
My experience hasn;t been so bad with DDS-4. The occasional hard read errors on verify phase of backup. A tape reformat usually fixes these. Or discard the tape and use a new one. They're inexpensive.
It's too bad LTO is rather expensive to buy a drive for.
Yes, too expensive. And LTO cartridges are too large for my liking. <snip>
My experience with USB drives is that 3.5" drives tend to fail when transported, while 2.5" drives are much more durable, but slower and of course smaller in capacity.
I'll gladly take a slower and smaller capacity 2.5" USB drive, to get durability.
Another annoyance with tape is that should your place burn down, you now have to locate another tape drive of the right type to read your backup again. That can be a hassle depending on how popular the model is. A USB drive is certainly a lot simpler that way being entirely self contained.
Very good point.
-- Len Sorensen
On Thu 28 Jul 2016 13:51 -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
I would need two portable backup hard drives (one on-site and one off-site). I estimate a cost of $375 for a SCSI controller card together with a (used) VXA tape drive. Plus the cost of tape cartridges, of course. So I'll have to see what 2 x 2.5" portable HDDs will cost. 1 TB capacity drives should be sufficient.
Portable external usb hard drives are comically cheaper if you consider price per terabyte.
Hello Loui, Thanks for your message. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Loui Chang" <louipc.ist@gmail.com> To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 7:56 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Thu 28 Jul 2016 13:51 -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
I would need two portable backup hard drives (one on-site and one off-site). I estimate a cost of $375 for a SCSI controller card together with a (used) VXA tape drive. Plus the cost of tape cartridges, of course. So I'll have to see what 2 x 2.5" portable HDDs will cost. 1 TB capacity drives should be sufficient.
Portable external usb hard drives are comically cheaper if you consider price per terabyte.
That's good news.
On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 09:27:09PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
Don't retail Processors come with coolers? Generally, they are OK (not outstanding) -- good enough.
Certainly intel CPUs do, except if it is a K model or a socket 2011 chip. Apaprently intel figures if you buy an unlocked chip (K model) or a higher end socket 2011 chip, you probably don't want their cpu cooler anyhow. I suspect they are right.
2 x 4G RAM is a waste of memory sockets. Go for higher density.
Certainly 8GB sticks make more sense these days.
debian (quirk: no capital letter on the front) is a good OS. It might not be the best intro to Linux. People seem to recommend Mint. I've never used it.
Mint is quite well put together. There are two versions. One is Ubuntu based and has a release pretty much whenever Ubuntu has one (with a bit of a delay) and expects you to reinstall to upgrade. The other is the Debian based one, which uses continous in place updates done by using Debian testing, and doing an update whenever Mint is done making sure things are stable.
If you don't have a broadband internet connection, all sorts of things that I don't notice might become problems. Like updates.
That would be quite a pain. -- Len Sorensen
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1
The other [Linux Mint distro] is the Debian based one, which uses continous in place updates done by using Debian testing, and doing an update whenever Mint is done making sure things are stable.
Except when they don't. When Linux Mint Debian Edition "upgraded" to LMDE2 the updates on LMDE (v1) no longer took place. There was an announcement at the time that this was to be the model for LMDE upgrades, which to me meant that there really was no value to their concept of rolling updates. - --Bob. On 07/27/16 15:22, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 09:27:09PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
Don't retail Processors come with coolers? Generally, they are OK (not outstanding) -- good enough.
Certainly intel CPUs do, except if it is a K model or a socket 2011 chip. Apaprently intel figures if you buy an unlocked chip (K model) or a higher end socket 2011 chip, you probably don't want their cpu cooler anyhow. I suspect they are right.
2 x 4G RAM is a waste of memory sockets. Go for higher density.
Certainly 8GB sticks make more sense these days.
debian (quirk: no capital letter on the front) is a good OS. It might not be the best intro to Linux. People seem to recommend Mint. I've never used it.
Mint is quite well put together. There are two versions. One is Ubuntu based and has a release pretty much whenever Ubuntu has one (with a bit of a delay) and expects you to reinstall to upgrade. The other is the Debian based one, which uses continous in place updates done by using Debian testing, and doing an update whenever Mint is done making sure things are stable.
If you don't have a broadband internet connection, all sorts of things that I don't notice might become problems. Like updates.
That would be quite a pain.
- -- - -- Bob Jonkman <bjonkman@sobac.com> Phone: +1-519-635-9413 SOBAC Microcomputer Services http://sobac.com/sobac/ Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting GnuPG Fngrprnt:04F7 742B 8F54 C40A E115 26C2 B912 89B0 D2CC E5EA -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability iEYEARECAAYFAleZEKAACgkQuRKJsNLM5er9XgCgml5jzkN07SCYElK0kPxGHUuu fQwAn2Z39Fd4rXouZmHw8MC/bmj1wuCE =gMlH -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hello Hugh, Thanks for your response. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "D. Hugh Redelmeier" <hugh@mimosa.com> To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 9:27 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org>
| I donlt really have a few weeks to spare. I need to get the Linux PC up | and running, so I can get back to the rest of my life.
If you are not used to Linux, and you are used to Windows XP, and you don't have weeks to spare, you really should think carefully about switching to Linux.
Sorry for causing the confusion. There is actually no hard deadline date when my Windows XP system goes offline. I have the "luxury" of keeping the Win XP system running for as long asI like. Until it dies from a major hardware failure, and it will die eventually. The Dell WIn XP system is already 12 years old, and Win XP is way too obsolete and too insecure now. So my motivation for getting the new Linux PC up and running now, is that it's going to be way easier to port files from a functional Win XP system to a new Linux PC, than it will be to struggle to get the Win XP stuff from a dead Win XP system.
If you have a bunch of applications that you are used to, you may well find the Linux substitutes unsatisfactory. After all, you have likely invested a bunch of time in learning the old programs.
Good point. You have inspired me to make a list. The two main applications I use are email (Outlook Express) and web browsing (Firefox, Comodo Dragon). The first big porting task will be to convert my Outlook Express mail folders (2.38 GB) to Thunderbird on Linux. And then start using the Linux PC for my email. I hope I can find satisfactory open source software for the porting task. If not, I'm thinking of writing my own export & import utilities (or paying someone else to write them), using the standard Microsoft-provided API on Win XP for access to OE mail folders. The absolutely vital objective is to get a 100% reliable dump of all the OE mail folders exported into an equivalent Win XP directory structure containing *.eml files. With rock-solid byte counts and checksuming. This will provide a very open and accessible version of all my email history, that faithfully replicates the OE mail folder structure. Copy this export over to the Linux PC, import it into Thunderbird, and then run an independent audit check of the Thundrbird mail folders, of the byte counts and checksumming (if feasible). Call me paranoid. Web browsing -- I understand that there are some really great web browsers for Linux, that will make me weep with joy, as compared with my Firefox experience under Win XP (even allowing tor my slow dial-up Internet link). Other apps -- although I have accumulated a vast quantity of different applications on the Win XP system, most of them are unused. Mainly I need: -- a replacement for Word and Excel in Windows Office 2003 (!!), I've already switched to using Open Office (Writer, Calc, Impress) on my Win XP system (Open Office Impress in particular, hugely "impresses" me by producing presentations that are rock-solid compatible with MS PowerPoint . The OO apps are not as slick as MS Office apps, but they are sufficiently useable for my purposes, that my "inner rebel" can cope with any rough edges, for the pleasure of not paying Microsoft for an Office upgrade. -- C / C++ compilers (available on Linux); -- PostgreSQL (available on Linux); -- HTTP server for website development (PHP, HTML, SQL) I'm using Apache HTTP server on Win XP. I'm planning to use Nginx (available on Linux) on the production Linux server (in the cloud), so I will install Nginx on the new Linux PC. -- ftp client, tty client, ssl client, vnc client (should all be available on Linux); -- OpenSCAD solid modelling tool www.openscad.org (available on Linux);
You may even have important data in a proprietary format, tied to a program that isn't available on Linux.
I do have many MS Office documents, that I occasionally need to reference. But I do not need to convert them all in some massive swoop.
Switching environments is often a challenge and a learning experience. It is a bit risky to do it in a rush.
Good advice -- be assured -- I do not underestimate the challenges involved. Fortunately for me, I am a "retired" softeare engineer. Hope I clarified above -- there really is no "rush" at all. Except for the fact that an older-type guy like me, is running out of life expectancy :) The only real rush is getting the Win 7 (OEM). Because I believe that Microsoft has announced that Win 7 will not be available after (1? / 31?) October 2016. I want Win 7 for its support for Win XP compatibility. Win 7 will be the last time I pay money to Microsoft.
Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of things in favour of Linux. That's what's been on my desktop since before Windows XP.
Lucky you. Soon, lucky me, too. I agree that Linux does offer advantages over Windows. Example: the open source Open Modelica app www.openmodelica.org for modelling physical systems. On Windows, Open Modelica requires OMDev (with MSYS) to emulate Unix functionality. Open Modelica, being a native *nix app will be less complicated to install and should run better, on Linux.
================
Assuming that you are intending to use a legitimate copy of Windows 7, you may well find it cheaper to buy a suitable machine from a big PC manufacturer. Their incremental cost for Windows is apparently close to $0 rather than the $100+ you have to pay to add it to your own build.
Yes -- I absolutely intend to install a legitimate Windows 7 (OEM). It seems that Microsoft does not permit system builders to quote a separate price for Windows 7 (OEM). The builder just quietly includes the cost in the overall price, and pays Microsoft in the background. Without an explicit price quotation for the Win 7 (OEM) on a retail system build, there is no room for bargaining over the Windows 7 price. This is the Bill Gates style that made him so rich that he has a 20-car underground parking garage for guests, under his mansion ...
A machine you build yourself is quite possibly better, but I don't know that you'd actually notice the difference.
(I have assembled machines for myself but more often buy off-the-shelf machines when I see good sales.)
Yes -- this is the big decision I have to make -- build from parts or buy a pre-built system.
================
Just to amplify what Len said:
- external serial modems are very standard and well-supported
- FAX is less standard. With care, you can select a supported modem. But FAX has died, thank goodness. About once a year I find it would be handy to send a FAX, but it is usually possible to just say that you cannot do it.
I never send faxes.
- I don't know about external USB modems. With luck, they emulate serial modems. I have one in my cupboard "just in case".
- avoid "WinModems". Those require proprietary drivers. Some have been reverse-engineered but I would not trust the drivers to have been well-maintained (my opinion is not based on experience).
I would not expect serial modems to be worth the bother.
All good advice.
================
I have no idea of the longevity or robustness of blu-ray disks. Consider diversifying to external HDDs.
My concern with external HDD is their potential for susceptibility to damage by mechanical shock.
The LG drive supports "M-DISC" media. They supposedly have very long life.
I did look at M-DISC. Very impressive, great for massive permanent long-term archive storage. But not a reuseable medium. All my archival data resides on the HDD. The cost of the M-DISC media is prohibitive for my backup methodology, which involves twice yearly full backups, and incremental backups in between. I really need rewriteable media.
================
Don't retail Processors come with coolers? Generally, they are OK (not outstanding) -- good enough.
True -- retail processors do come with passive coolers (finned heat sinks) and cheap noisy little fans. OK for usage that is not 24/7. But heat is the great enemy of electronics. So I did a lot of research to find a suitable fan-based cooler (with sealed heat circulation pipes). Because I want to be sure that my new Linux PC will run cool and reliable for many many 24-hour days, even at 100% CPU load, during July and August in my non-air-conditioned appartment. Call me paranoid.
================
2 x 4G RAM is a waste of memory sockets. Go for higher density.
Others have mentioned this too. Makes good sense. I will change the spec to 16 GB and assure expandability to 32 GB.
================
debian (quirk: no capital letter on the front) is a good OS. It might not be the best intro to Linux. People seem to recommend Mint. I've never used it.
Oh -- I didn;t know about the debian capitalization culture -- thanks for the tip. Yes -- it seems that debian is the Linux OS for conservative boring users (like me:) who focus obsessively on reliability and prefer to avoid the bleeding edge.
If you don't have a broadband internet connection, all sorts of things that I don't notice might become problems. Like updates.
On the new Linux PC, I'll install the debian Linux from ISO on optical media. Updates could be impossibly slow over dial-up. Time will tell. I do plan on upgrading to a DSL connection on the new Linux PC. But I want to try the dial-up first, because that's all I use on the Win XP system, and I don't want to have to mess with switching the Win XP PC over to use DSL
================
Good luck and have fun.
Already am having fun -- especially on talk@gtalug.org ...
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 01:49:29PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
The first big porting task will be to convert my Outlook Express mail folders (2.38 GB) to Thunderbird on Linux. And then start using the Linux PC for my email.
Why am I thinking: Setup an IMAP server, point outlook at it, copy mail folders there, then connect other mail program at it and copy again. I am sure there is a good reason not to do it that way though. I would be surprised if thunderbird can't import from outlook express files directly. Of course I keep my mail on the server anyhow, so it is already imap, and I don't have local folders to move around, so I haven't done that. -- Len Sorensen
Hello Lennart, Thanks for your message. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lennart Sorensen" <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 3:36 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 01:49:29PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
The first big porting task will be to convert my Outlook Express mail folders (2.38 GB) to Thunderbird on Linux. And then start using the Linux PC for my email.
Why am I thinking:
Setup an IMAP server, point outlook at it, copy mail folders there, then connect other mail program at it and copy again.
Interesting idea. I would not want the complexity of setting up an IMAP server myself, but could use my existing email hosting service to provide the IMAP server. I use POP3 for my email hosting. Just fetch the mail to the Outlook Express folder on the Win XP PC, and then delete the mail from the POP3 server. Less exposure to "sniffing" by whoever. And there's absolutely no way I'm going to depend on any hosting service, to backup my precious 2.38 GB of emails.
I am sure there is a good reason not to do it that way though. I would be surprised if thunderbird can't import from outlook express files directly.
The reason for me not to do it [bulk transfer email via IMAP & Internet], is the slow bandwidth of my dial-up Internet connection. I know, I know, I should abandon dial-up for a faster connection. And I plan to. But not until the new Linux PC is fully operational, preferably using dial-up. I will need to connect the existing Windows XP PC and the new Linux PC via direct Ethernet cable anyway, to transfer the Win XP HDD contents over to the new Linux PC. This will be the fastest way to bulk transfer the mail. Maybe thunderbird can import from Outlook Express files. And that would be great.
Of course I keep my mail on the server anyhow, so it is already imap, and I don't have local folders to move around, so I haven't done that.
-- Len Sorensen
Vis a vis the email part, I would think it possible that it should be pretty easy to replicate IMAP locally. I haven't used this in several years, but have installed and used a system called offlineimap (see http://www.offlineimap.org/) which made it relatively easy to duplicate IMAP repositories on a per user basis. It needed only a couple lines of configuration per source. And note it is available as a Debian package :-) https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=offlineimap There are sophisticated IMAP servers that are complex to manage, but this was pretty easy. If it covers your needs, then it's a pretty good answer. I'd like to try out one of the options that uses Postgres as back end; there should be big storage savings available via email contents being automatically compressed in "TOAST" columns, but that is certainly a way more complex approach. Offlineimap is pretty simple!
Hello Christopher, Thanks for your message. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christopher Browne" <cbbrowne@gmail.com> To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org>; "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
Vis a vis the email part, I would think it possible that it should be pretty easy to replicate IMAP locally.
I haven't used this in several years, but have installed and used a system called offlineimap (see http://www.offlineimap.org/) which made it relatively easy to duplicate IMAP repositories on a per user basis.
It needed only a couple lines of configuration per source. And note it is available as a Debian package :-) https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=offlineimap
In my case, I prefer to avoid IMAP and find some more direct way to mass-convert the Outlook Express local email folders on the Win XP PC, over to Thunderbird local email folders on Linux. However, if using IMAP as an intermediary representation, turns out to be a good way to do the email mass-conversion, then the offlineimap system could prove a usefully simple way to get IMAP support for the conversion. I took a quick look at the offlineimap website. Looks like the product is still active, and also that a replacement product project is ongoing. <snip>
Hello Russel, Thanks for your response. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell Reiter" <rreiter91@gmail.com> To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org>; "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 3:34 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Jul 25, 2016 10:50 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Warm Greetings To GTALUG,
Please forgive the long email. -- have to provide some background.
BACKGROUND -- BUILDING DEBIAN 8 PC TO REPLACE WIN XP PC
I usually have a couple of pieces of advise for home builds and integration.
Unfortunately the first piece is no longer relevant. That was was go to active surplus and purchase a variety of items. Board standoffs, plastic washers and odd screws and ties. However they have closed both locations and it doesn't look like there is a comeback in the works.
I have yet to find another place with such a comprehensive stock of the little odds and ends someone night need.
The other is to have a build buddy, someone to bounce things around with when there is an unexpected problem.
I do have this suggestion tho. Make friends with Hacklab.
I haven't visited the facility so I don't know if they have storage for a build which may last longer than one day.
Also I have no idea of the fee structure to use the space, but there are others on the list with more in-depth knowledge than I.
Scott Sullivan perhaps?
I get nervous when I read "standoofs, odd screws, little odds and ends" ... Hacklab -- I remember vaguely reading about them. Thanks for the reminder. If I do decide to build the new Linux PC myself, I will check out Hacklab. And find my "build buddy(ies)" on GTALUG :)
HTH Russell
<snip the end>
On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 09:39:25AM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
I get nervous when I read "standoofs, odd screws, little odds and ends"
In my experience, any case you buy should come with those. Maybe I have never had a problem with that because I buy name brand cases. For all I know the $20 cases don't include those. -- Len Sorensen
Hello Lennart, Thanks for your response. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lennart Sorensen" <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 10:32 AM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 09:39:25AM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
I get nervous when I read "standoofs, odd screws, little odds and ends"
In my experience, any case you buy should come with those. Maybe I have never had a problem with that because I buy name brand cases. For all I know the $20 cases don't include those.
The beautiful Fractal Design Define R5 (Black) case I have specified, is definitely brand name. If I decide to build the Linux PC myself, before ordering I will confirm that the Fractal Design case comes with the "odds and ends".
-- Len Sorensen
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 01:44:23PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
The beautiful Fractal Design Define R5 (Black) case I have specified, is definitely brand name.
It does look very nice. It violates just one of my case rules. It has a door in front of the optical drive. I don't like those, because they can break your optical drive if software ejected. Of course if you don't intend to have an optical drive which is very much a valid option these days, then that doesn't matter, and it does make it look very clean. I have been using the Silverstone TJ04-E myself lately.
If I decide to build the Linux PC myself, before ordering I will confirm that the Fractal Design case comes with the "odds and ends".
Well I see their web page says: Package contents * Define R5 computer case * User manual * Accessory box I would be very surprised if that box isn't full of screws and stuff. -- Len Sorensen
Hello Lennart, Thanks for your message. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lennart Sorensen" <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 3:20 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 01:44:23PM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
The beautiful Fractal Design Define R5 (Black) case I have specified, is definitely brand name.
It does look very nice. It violates just one of my case rules. It has a door in front of the optical drive. I don't like those, because they can break your optical drive if software ejected. Of course if you don't intend to have an optical drive which is very much a valid option these days, then that doesn't matter, and it does make it look very clean. I have been using the Silverstone TJ04-E myself lately.
Ooooh -- nasty !! A case that is designed to destroy optical drives. I do plan to use an optical drive. As the initial HDD backup method. And for OS installation. Looked at the Silverstone TJ04-E. It should work fine (internal clearances look OK). So I will change the specification from Fractal Design to Silverstone. Once again, GTALUG humbles this old guy ... <snip>
-- Len Sorensen
On Jul 26, 2016 9:39 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hello Russel,
<snip>
I get nervous when I read "standoofs, odd screws, little odds and ends"
That's OK as Lennart pointed out name brand stuff usually comes complete with the necessary parts. However in twenty five years of tinkering and a couple of hundred builds, I've learned to plan for my own fumbling fingers and trying to mix and match from different supply streams.
...
Hacklab -- I remember vaguely reading about them. Thanks for the reminder.
I brought them up because GTALUG doesn't have a particular place of their own. I checked the Hacklab website and it looks like the list administrators have their monthly meeting at that location. Also FYI Tuesdays after 6pm is the open house. https://hacklab.to/
If I do decide to build the new Linux PC myself, I will check out Hacklab. And find my "build buddy(ies)" on GTALUG :)
I live close to that location so if it is just unfamiliarity with the build process and it can be done there, I'd be happy to lend a hand at some point.
HTH Russell
<snip the end>
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 Steve Petrie and Russel Reiter conversed:
If I do decide to build the new Linux PC myself, I will check out Hacklab. And find my "build buddy(ies)" on GTALUG
I live close to that location so if it is just unfamiliarity with the build process and it can be done there, I'd be happy to lend a hand at some point.
Another place to learn some computer building skills is FreeGeek Toronto: http://freegeektoronto.org/ They receive donated computers, refurbish (rebuild) them, and "re-sell them at an accessible price to help low income communities get connected." After you've helped build four or five systems you get to keep the next self-built system for yourself (at least, that's how it once was). We've got something similar in Kitchener, the Working Centre's Computer Recycling: http://www.theworkingcentre.org/computer-recycling/178 - --Bob. On 07/26/16 16:50, Russell Reiter via talk wrote:
On Jul 26, 2016 9:39 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hello Russel,
<snip>
I get nervous when I read "standoofs, odd screws, little odds and ends"
That's OK as Lennart pointed out name brand stuff usually comes complete with the necessary parts.
However in twenty five years of tinkering and a couple of hundred builds, I've learned to plan for my own fumbling fingers and trying to mix and match from different supply streams.
...
Hacklab -- I remember vaguely reading about them. Thanks for the reminder.
I brought them up because GTALUG doesn't have a particular place of their own. I checked the Hacklab website and it looks like the list administrators have their monthly meeting at that location.
Also FYI Tuesdays after 6pm is the open house.
If I do decide to build the new Linux PC myself, I will check out Hacklab. And find my "build buddy(ies)" on GTALUG :)
I live close to that location so if it is just unfamiliarity with the build process and it can be done there, I'd be happy to lend a hand at some point.
HTH Russell
<snip the end>
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
- -- - -- Bob Jonkman <bjonkman@sobac.com> Phone: +1-519-635-9413 SOBAC Microcomputer Services http://sobac.com/sobac/ Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting GnuPG Fngrprnt:04F7 742B 8F54 C40A E115 26C2 B912 89B0 D2CC E5EA -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v2 Comment: Ensure confidentiality, authenticity, non-repudiability iEYEARECAAYFAleZErcACgkQuRKJsNLM5eot7ACgmk5jpKGwaUSZwADHjRrD/h0L HqkAoJUJ6eQLVY/eVCHbm66tX0wjg7c5 =XFFJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Hello Russell, Thanks for your response. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell Reiter" <rreiter91@gmail.com> To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org>; "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net> Sent: Tuesday, July 26, 2016 4:50 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Jul 26, 2016 9:39 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hello Russel,
<snip>
I get nervous when I read "standoofs, odd screws, little odds and ends"
That's OK as Lennart pointed out name brand stuff usually comes complete with the necessary parts.
However in twenty five years of tinkering and a couple of hundred builds,
Just curious -- did you build those "couple of hundred builds" all for personal use?
I've learned to plan for my own fumbling fingers and trying to mix and match from different supply streams.
It's the "fumbling fingers" and "mix and match" that makes me inclined to use a commercial builder. However, I received (26 July 2016) a very disappointing quotation from NCIX. Hugely expensive, with substitutions (and omissions). So be assured, I am still open to building myself.
...
Hacklab -- I remember vaguely reading about them. Thanks for the reminder.
I brought them up because GTALUG doesn't have a particular place of their own. I checked the Hacklab website and it looks like the list administrators have their monthly meeting at that location.
Yes, I suspected that GTALUG has no permanent space, so the idea of a GTALUG-provided system building "clinic" for WinXP "orphans" would be impractical.
Also FYI Tuesdays after 6pm is the open house.
I looked at the website -- amazing !! Reminds me of my 1960s "hippie commune" days. Only Hacklab seems much more grown-up and productive of real results, than us incredibly naive "sex, drugs & rock'n'roll" hippie types were ... One issue with Hacklab is logistics -- I own no car (transit & walking since 2004) and no longer have a valid driver's license (no car rentals). I live in Oakville, so after I order and accumulate all the parts at my apartment, I would need to get them (and myself) to Hacklab without paying an outrageous taxicab fare. Oh, but there's that new-fangled thing called Uber ... Ideally, for operational flexibility, it would be good to have use of some small temporary secure storage space at Hacklab. I'll check this out if I decide to build the Linux PC myself.
If I do decide to build the new Linux PC myself, I will check out Hacklab. And find my "build buddy(ies)" on GTALUG :)
I live close to that location so if it is just unfamiliarity with the build process and it can be done there, I'd be happy to lend a hand at some point.
Really appreciate your generous offer. If I decide to build the Linux PC myelf at Hacklab, I will contact you offline.
HTH Russell
<snip the end>
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Jul 28, 2016 1:48 PM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote: <snip>
Just curious -- did you build those "couple of hundred builds" all for personal use?
No, probably the first 50 in the early 90's were all DOS & WIN 8088 - 80486 from obsoleted IBM business units. Pick and patch so to speak. Some for me some for friends and friend of friends. Later on after 95, the next 50 or so, after taking a little training in systems integration and being exposed to Novel networking and I started tinkering with Linux. The last MS OS I used personally was 98. I've participated in community builds at various locations, you know build a box for someone who can't afford one. Some of those were Linux specific. Clue and mini-deb come to mind. I volunteered at a community organization and did some DOS & Win training for people who were going to receive a donated computer. I organized fake builds. That is I assembled and tested the box, disassembled it put all the parts in a box and a team of volunteers or staff would assemble it as a team building event. This century I have assembled gamers, business and dual boot systems on specification for people.
I've learned to plan for my own fumbling fingers and trying to mix and match from different supply streams.
It's the "fumbling fingers" and "mix and match" that makes me inclined to use a commercial builder.
I was just pointing out that some fasteners and screws etc can be quite tiny and if you don't have access to an immediate replacement, things can grind to a halt.
However, I received (26 July 2016) a very disappointing quotation from NCIX. Hugely expensive, with substitutions (and omissions). So be assured, I am still open to building myself.
Just out of curiosity, do you mind if I ask what dollar amount hugely expensive represents? While the business model has changed to single purchase with full Windows integration, there are other options depending on the budget. An off the shelf white box, given the times, is most usually able to run Linux quite well. It is the bleeding edge, with the fastest newest chipsets, and largest capacites where stumbling blocks arise, as some of the others who respond to this thread have indicated. Russell Sent from mobile.
Hello Russell, Thanks for your message. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russell Reiter" <rreiter91@gmail.com> To: "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org>; "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net> Sent: Thursday, July 28, 2016 3:17 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Jul 28, 2016 1:48 PM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
<snip>
<snip>
However, I received (26 July 2016) a very disappointing quotation from NCIX. Hugely expensive, with substitutions (and omissions). So be assured, I am still open to building myself.
Just out of curiosity, do you mind if I ask what dollar amount hugely expensive represents? While the business model has changed to single purchase with full Windows integration, there are other options depending on the budget.
It was hugely expensive because I missed the fact that it included Windows 7 (OEM) at $187.99. Here's the pricing analysis repeated from a summary email I sent to the thread, before I fetched your email: ----------------- NCIX* PC PartPicker** ----------------- -------- ------------- CPU $269.99 $249.25 CPU Cooler $92.98 $79.95 Motherboard $289.99 $228.98 Memory $44.99 $75.98 ----------------- Case $144.99 $129.99 Power Supply $214.98 $159.99 ----------------- Solid State Drive $135.70 $156.99 Hard Drive $67.99 $81.95 Optical Drive $92.98 $86.98 ----------------- Video Monitor $167.98 $167.92 Keyboard $15.98 $40.00 Mouse (incl.) $10.00 ----------------- Dialup Modem $54.58 $50.00 ----------------- ----------------- TOTAL1: $1593.13 $1517.98 ----------------- ----------------- MS Windows 7 $187.99 Assemble & Test $49.98 Environ. Fees $16.65 ----------------- ----------------- TOTAL2: $1897.73 ----------------- ----------------- My point is, if NCIX can match the component pricing I can get, as reported by PCPartPicker (and NCIX does match that pricing), and if the NCIX price for assembly and test is reasonable (I consider $49.98 very reasonable). Then why would an old guy like me, with already too many projects ongoing, want to build my own PC? Where is there any significant money to be saved? Certainly there's no time to be saved. By using NCIX, I'm not going to have to shop all over the place to source every component, order it, pay for it. I'm not going to have to enjoy the dubious pleasure of hair-pulling "logistics" receiving multiple separate deliveries by a variety of couriers from a variety of suppliers.
An off the shelf white box, given the times, is most usually able to run Linux quite well. It is the bleeding edge, with the fastest newest chipsets, and largest capacites where stumbling blocks arise, as some of the others who respond to this thread have indicated.
Yes, I expect that I could maybe shave some cost by buying something on sale (because being discontinued) from the latest Dell flyer, with Windows 7 pre-installed. I ball-parked it once at a 10% saving with a plausible Dell desktop PC comparable to my proposed configuration. But what then? The disk drive partitioning and boot setup very probably won't suit my partitioning needs or provide multi-boot capability for adding Linux. When I ordered the existing Dell Windows XP desktop in 2004, the Dell sales agent cheerfully received and acknowledged my email specifying the disk drive partitioning. But of course the Dell build assembly line grunts thought that was a joke, and I had to do a lot of messing around to re-work the partitioning). So, if I buy a white box (e.g. Dell) I'll have to wipe the HDD and start again, including a Windows 7 install. Way too much fussing around with Win 7 for me. I don't intend to get that involved with Win 7. It's just there in case I need some Win XP compatibility from a bare-metal boot of Win 7 (in case of problems with the Win 7 under KVM virtualization under Linux). Or maybe I will want to use Win 7 to play some DRM music or videos that Linux can't handle. If I wipe the Dell-installed Win 7, Dell could possibly decline to support my Dell PC with it's wierd install of Windows 7. Even the Dell hardware warranty could be dishonoured. If I can't get the white box vendor's ironclad assurance of hardware compatibility with Linux, I could wind up stuck with a PC I can't use. I agree it's a small risk. But the advent of "secure boot" and UEFI make me nervous, I understand that these are not yet supported under Linux. So my compromise is to specify precisely the components I want (having carefully researched their compatibility with Linux) and then decide how to get the PC built from those components.
Russell Sent from mobile.
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 12:24 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote: snip
If I can't get the white box vendor's ironclad assurance of hardware compatibility with Linux, I could wind up stuck with a PC I can't use. I agree it's a small risk. But the advent of "secure boot" and UEFI make me nervous, I understand that these are not yet supported under Linux.
I cannot speak to whether or not it is actually supported but I can tell you that you can install Linux (Debian in my case) on a system with both secure boot and UEFI. (My system was in for warranty repair and when I got it back the main system disc had been replaced. As well the windows boot manager had been enabled (and used), all this even though I had had Debian (testing) installed previously. This were not straightforward but I was able to get things to where I wanted them. Had to disable the windows boot manager and use the UEFI disc configuration (gpart/gparted is your friend here!) and then determine how to work through the secure boot malaise. What I did I don't remember just remember that it was quite an odessey and more than somewhat frustrating but I was successful - - - and I'm not at all competent as a programmer nor any kind of 'under the hood' person when it comes to computers. I'm just a tool user when it comes to computers at this point and wishing I could keep it there!) Regards Dee
Hello Dee, Thanks for your message. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "o1bigtenor" <o1bigtenor@gmail.com> To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 8:03 AM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 12:24 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote: snip
<snip>
I cannot speak to whether or not it is actually supported but I can tell you that you can install Linux (Debian in my case) on a system with both secure boot and UEFI.
You are correct -- according to the debian 8 docs, there is (improved) UEFI support in debian 8. It is the secure boot that is not supported.
(My system was in for warranty repair and when I got it back the main system disc had been replaced. As well the windows boot manager had been enabled (and used), all this even though I had had Debian (testing) installed previously.
(Shudder.) So, is it a correct presumption that, when you got the system back from warranty repair, the new main system disk had been configured with a PC seller's "standard" Microsoft Windows installation, setup to secure boot only windows, through the windows boot manager? I am hoping that it will be feasible for me to specify to the PC system builder, both: 1. HDD partitioning configuration (there's only one HDD), and 2. multi-boot setup (ready for a drop-in debian 8 installation). So the debian installation I will do myself, requires minimal messing with the boot setup.
This were not straightforward but I was able to get things to where I wanted them. Had to disable the windows boot manager and use the UEFI disc configuration (gpart/gparted is your friend here!) and then determine how to work through the secure boot malaise. What I did I don't remember
Too bad you don't remember. But, do you now have your PC configured with multi-boot, so you can boot on bare metal, either: 1. Microsoft Windows or 2. debian Linux? If you do have such a multi-boot setup operational, may I come back and pick your brain on your multi-boot setup? (After I have updated my proposed PC hardware configuration per GTALUG advice, and also established revised benchmark pricing through PCPartPicker.)
just remember that it was quite an odessey and more than somewhat frustrating but I was successful - - - and I'm not at all competent as a programmer nor any kind of 'under the hood' person when it comes to computers. I'm just a tool user when it comes to computers at this point and wishing I could keep it there!)
The "odessey" part I can relate to. I like to refer to those kinds of struggles as "character building". I'm a computer-tool user also, but I do have programming skills, and a certain comfort level getting under the hood. However, I would like to minimize the dirty hands, by researching ahead and developing an understanding of the multi-boot setup (windows + debian). My preferred scenario has the PC system builder delivering the new PC, with Microsoft Windows 7 (OEM) installed to boot onto bare metal, but with a pre-agreed HDD partitioning and multi-boot setup, so it's a straightforward drop-in installation task, for me to add a debian 8 Linux, that also boots onto bare metal. The idea is to avoid wiping the windows installation and boot setup, as delivered by the PC system builder, so as to keep the system builder committed to my mental health :) Once the new Linux PC is settled in and working, as a windows + debian multi-boot system, I'd be happy to document in detail, the whole partition configuration and multi-boot setup. To add complication, I would like, once the new PC is booting debian Linux from the HDD onto bare metal, to imrove performance by providing for debian to boot (mostly) from a "shadow" copy on the HDD, and then do all subsequent dynamic loading of debian components, from the SSD.
Regards
Dee
| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> | ----- Original Message ----- From: "o1bigtenor" <o1bigtenor@gmail.com> | > I cannot speak to whether or not it is actually supported but I can tell you | > that you can install Linux (Debian in my case) on a system with both | > secure boot and UEFI. | > | | You are correct -- according to the debian 8 docs, there is (improved) UEFI | support in debian 8. It is the secure boot that is not supported. Here's my understanding. I could be wrong about some details. Secure boot requires a signed bootloader. The signing can by any private key that matches the public keys known by the UEFI firmware. Out of the box, the only such key is owned by Microsoft. Linux distros have gotten a signed-by-Microsoft bootloader. I think that there is only one such bootloader. It is used by Suse, Ubuntu, Fedora, and Red Hat (at least). So all those can be used with Secure Boot enabled. Currently, all PCs that get Windows branding (i.e. essentially all PCs) have to allow additional keys to be added to the firmware. But it must be a manual process so that malware cannot add keys. I, as a human, don't wish to type in a key (I imagine 256 or more hex digits). Currently, all PCs that get Windows branding have to allow Secure Boot to be turned off. But it must be enabled by default. These two rules appear to me to be promulgated by Microsoft to avoid anti-monopoly scrutiny. FFurther evidence for this theory: Microsoft took the opposite approach for Windows RT which was in a market that they did not dominate. | > (My system was in for warranty repair and when I got it back the main | > system disc had been replaced. As well the windows boot manager had | > been enabled (and used), all this even though I had had Debian (testing) | > installed previously. Of course: warranty repair that involves replacing a disk drive will give you back the system as it was born: a fresh install. Anything else is too expensive for them to accomplish. If you bought your system from a small integrator, anything is possible, but it is pretty labour-intensive for him to recreate your disk. That's what your backups are for, right? PC warranties are essentially about the hardware. Software is pretty much out of anyone's control. I've tried to get support for software and it has almost always been hopeless UNLESS I've made a really stupid and obvious mistake (it happens). Googling is the best software support there is provided you are reasonably knowledgable. Of course "reasonable" is subjective. | So, is it a correct presumption that, when you got the system back from | warranty repair, the new main system disk had been configured with a PC | seller's "standard" Microsoft Windows installation, setup to secure boot only | windows, through the windows boot manager? Surely. In fact, for security reasons, I try to wipe any disk that I return for warranty support. | I am hoping that it will be feasible for me to specify to the PC system | builder, both: 1. HDD partitioning configuration (there's only one HDD), and | 2. multi-boot setup (ready for a drop-in debian 8 installation). So the debian | installation I will do myself, requires minimal messing with the boot setup. I think that you are overly limiting the pool of suppliers with this requirement. And for not much of a win. | >This were not straightforward but I was able to get | > things to where I wanted them. Had to disable the windows boot manager | > and use the UEFI disc configuration (gpart/gparted is your friend here!) | > and then determine how to work through the secure boot malaise. | > What I did I don't remember | | Too bad you don't remember. Sadly there are many variants to this. One recipe won't work. But the ideas carry over. This is where experience, not just theory, is useful. I have a modest number of scars in this area. This is actually a small area. Not that much lore. Just no particularly good source (as far as I know). I don't think any of this is documented in a way you can just read about it. But at least you know that there must be a way through the maze. | The "odessey" part I can relate to. I like to refer to those kinds of | struggles as "character building". More like Theseus (Labyrinth) than Odysseus. | My preferred scenario has the PC system builder delivering the new PC, with | Microsoft Windows 7 (OEM) installed to boot onto bare metal, but with a | pre-agreed HDD partitioning and multi-boot setup, so it's a straightforward | drop-in installation task, for me to add a debian 8 Linux, that also boots | onto bare metal. The idea is to avoid wiping the windows installation and boot | setup, as delivered by the PC system builder, so as to keep the system builder | committed to my mental health Essentially any conventional PC can be wrangled to run Debian UNLESS it has as-yet-unsupported hardware. Most system integrators don't know how. At least some of us in this community do and are willing to help. Unsupported hardware is rare, but I will mention exceptions that I know: - video cards can be tricky, expecially new models - Intel has screwed up on some bits of support for some current Atom-family processors (but you were not considering those) - the latest family of intel processors ("Skylake") have some minor surprises that are still being worked out. You really want to be able to do this stuff yourself so that you can recover from system failures. What better way to learn than before you have anything important on your system? | To add complication, I would like, once the new PC is booting debian Linux | from the HDD onto bare metal, to imrove performance by providing for debian to | boot (mostly) from a "shadow" copy on the HDD, and then do all subsequent | dynamic loading of debian components, from the SSD. I generally consider my OS disposable. So I keep it on the SSD. That makes it much more resposive. No backup: I can easily recreate it. I lean towards keeping my data on the HDD. I don't do data-intensive things. Backing it up is important. SSD failures seem to be more sudden that HDD failures.
On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 9:52 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hello Dee,
Thanks for your message.
My comments are inline below.
Steve
----- Original Message ----- From: "o1bigtenor" <o1bigtenor@gmail.com> To: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 8:03 AM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 12:24 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote: snip
<snip>
I cannot speak to whether or not it is actually supported but I can tell you that you can install Linux (Debian in my case) on a system with both secure boot and UEFI.
You are correct -- according to the debian 8 docs, there is (improved) UEFI support in debian 8. It is the secure boot that is not supported.
(My system was in for warranty repair and when I got it back the main system disc had been replaced. As well the windows boot manager had been enabled (and used), all this even though I had had Debian (testing) installed previously.
(Shudder.)
So, is it a correct presumption that, when you got the system back from warranty repair, the new main system disk had been configured with a PC seller's "standard" Microsoft Windows installation, setup to secure boot only windows, through the windows boot manager?
No - - - but as I have 4 hdd and 1 sdd and 1 optical drive (blue ray for backups and cdroms and dvds) they 'added' that as that would be normal practice.
I am hoping that it will be feasible for me to specify to the PC system builder, both: 1. HDD partitioning configuration (there's only one HDD), and 2. multi-boot setup (ready for a drop-in debian 8 installation). So the debian installation I will do myself, requires minimal messing with the boot setup.
What I would suggest is that you have win??? installed but ask for it to be in a 80 GB directory. I do not have win system running on base metal. I have win7pro running on a VM that isn't allowed outside access (in an electronic jail as it were!).
This were not straightforward but I was able to get things to where I wanted them. Had to disable the windows boot manager and use the UEFI disc configuration (gpart/gparted is your friend here!) and then determine how to work through the secure boot malaise. What I did I don't remember
Too bad you don't remember.
But, do you now have your PC configured with multi-boot, so you can boot on bare metal, either: 1. Microsoft Windows or 2. debian Linux?
If you do have such a multi-boot setup operational, may I come back and pick your brain on your multi-boot setup? (After I have updated my proposed PC hardware configuration per GTALUG advice, and also established revised benchmark pricing through PCPartPicker.)
I would be willing to field questions with the provisio that I am no expert just a persevering kind of idiot! Multi-boot isn't hard to effect. I just so mistrust M$ that I won't run a system on the web.
just remember that it was quite an odessey and more than somewhat frustrating but I was successful - - - and I'm not at all competent as a programmer nor any kind of 'under the hood' person when it comes to computers. I'm just a tool user when it comes to computers at this point and wishing I could keep it there!)
The "odessey" part I can relate to. I like to refer to those kinds of struggles as "character building".
I'm a computer-tool user also, but I do have programming skills, and a certain comfort level getting under the hood. However, I would like to minimize the dirty hands, by researching ahead and developing an understanding of the multi-boot setup (windows + debian).
My preferred scenario has the PC system builder delivering the new PC, with Microsoft Windows 7 (OEM) installed to boot onto bare metal, but with a pre-agreed HDD partitioning and multi-boot setup, so it's a straightforward drop-in installation task, for me to add a debian 8 Linux, that also boots onto bare metal. The idea is to avoid wiping the windows installation and boot setup, as delivered by the PC system builder, so as to keep the system builder committed to my mental health :)
I dealt with a company in western Canada called Memory Express and found that the sales person I dealt with worked as hard for me as she did for her firm and I have worked with her since on issues so there are people out there that will work with you. Would suggest that you just ask them to place Win7Pro in a directory of xx GB in size and then things will be much easier for you. It is possible to shrink the partition from complete disc to something reasonable but that's a pain. The other option is to let them build the system as they normally do. Buy your oem win7pro disc. Get system home use system repair disc to boot system and use gparted to shrink the win requirements. There are some things to remember doing that - - those I think I can help with. Then install Debian (I went with testing cause I don't like being way behind the curve). Make sure Debian is working. Then reinstall win7 on the partition(s) you have for it. Make sure both win and debian systems are working. Get working. This is more of a PITA but it saves a lot of headache at the build shop.
Once the new Linux PC is settled in and working, as a windows + debian multi-boot system, I'd be happy to document in detail, the whole partition configuration and multi-boot setup.
I thought of doing that but it was a long enough and painful enough a process that I didn't note EVERYTHING and that's why I have nothing concrete to give you at this time.
To add complication, I would like, once the new PC is booting debian Linux from the HDD onto bare metal, to imrove performance by providing for debian to boot (mostly) from a "shadow" copy on the HDD, and then do all subsequent dynamic loading of debian components, from the SSD.
Would love to be able to do that myself TTYL Dee
<snip>
So, if I buy a white box (e.g. Dell) I'll have to wipe the HDD and start
again, Dell is a branded manufacturer. OEM whiteboxes are usually assembled by a local integrator, or yourself, from branded and or unbranded parts you source out. <snip>
If I can't get the white box vendor's ironclad assurance of hardware compatibility with Linux, I could wind up
This has been the adventure.
stuck with a PC I can't use. I agree it's a small risk. But the advent of "secure boot" and UEFI make me nervous, I understand that these are not yet supported under Linux.
Secure boot is a misnomer. Trusted boot would be a better term, if it weren't most probably just a way of slowing down adoption of Foss operating systems using FUD. However anti-trust laws are in place and Foss support is well ... Sorry I can't help myself ... The Foss is strong within BIOS. Luke, do or do not, there is no try. :-)
So my compromise is to specify precisely the components I want (having
carefully researched their compatibility with Linux) and then decide how to get the PC built from those components. One gotcha is the middleware, even branded hw may say linux supported but there is no API or a sketchy one at best. Russell Sent from mobile.
| From: Russell Reiter via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | > So, if I buy a white box (e.g. Dell) I'll have to wipe the HDD and start | again, | | Dell is a branded manufacturer. OEM whiteboxes are usually assembled by a | local integrator, or yourself, from branded and or unbranded parts you | source out. Russell's explanation matches my understanding of the (informal) term "white box". More about big manufacturers: Generally speaking, each manufacturer makes an inexpensive, flashy, and fast-changing line of products for consumers, and a more expensive, staid, reliable, stable line for businesses. (Servers are another line, but this can blur.) It sure seems that Steve would want a business model. Assuming he wants a pre-built model at all. Most of my experience with business models has been buying them off-lease. These machines have been pretty solid and reliable. Oh, and old. I have a couple that have been on essentially 24/7 since 2003 (I bought them off-lease on the day of the blackout). I should replace them for several reasons, but they still work. Business desktops have been trending to smaller form-factors (smaller boxes). That's because businesses don't play with add-on cards and they find desk space is precious. Larger units are still available. Steve wants a larger box so that he can put a few full-height cards in. And 4 DIMMs. Almost the only desktops that come bundled with Windows 7 pro are business models. Perhaps older ones at that. By selecting offerings with Win7pro bundled, Steve can find the boxes of interest. Business desktops often seem to support VGA and DisplayPort. DVI is disappearing faster than VGA and HDMI isn't generally supported. This might affect the choice of monitor. Other than video cards, add-in cards are rarely useful these days. Plausible uses on a desktop: - adding extra ethernet ports (not usually needed on a desktop) - RAID controllers - supporting something newer than the machine (unpredicatable) + adding USB3 to an old machine - supporting something much older than the machine + supporting SCSI or SAS or other odd things + serial ports (but USB dongles do this well enough) + printer ports for ancient printers or for hardware hacking --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 03:12:51PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
Business desktops often seem to support VGA and DisplayPort. DVI is disappearing faster than VGA and HDMI isn't generally supported. This might affect the choice of monitor.
And, all my monitors are DVI, and my video card is dual-DVI... -- William
Hello Hugh, Thanks for your message. My comments are inline below. Steve ----- Original Message ----- From: "D. Hugh Redelmeier" <hugh@mimosa.com> To: "Russell Reiter" <rreiter91@gmail.com>; "GTALUG Talk" <talk@gtalug.org> Cc: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng." <apetrie@aspetrie.net> Sent: Saturday, July 30, 2016 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [GTALUG] Advice -- Building Debian 8 PC To Replace Win XP PC;
| From: Russell Reiter via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
| > So, if I buy a white box (e.g. Dell) I'll have to wipe the HDD and start | again, | | Dell is a branded manufacturer. OEM whiteboxes are usually assembled by a | local integrator, or yourself, from branded and or unbranded parts you | source out.
<snip>
Generally speaking, each manufacturer makes an inexpensive, flashy, and fast-changing line of products for consumers, and a more expensive, staid, reliable, stable line for businesses. (Servers are another line, but this can blur.)
It sure seems that Steve would want a business model. Assuming he wants a pre-built model at all.
Right -- I want a business model.
Most of my experience with business models has been buying them off-lease. These machines have been pretty solid and reliable. Oh, and old.
I want new hardware, for the last computer I will probably ever buy. <snip>
Business desktops often seem to support VGA and DisplayPort. DVI is disappearing faster than VGA and HDMI isn't generally supported. This might affect the choice of monitor.
Hmmm -- thanks for the tip. I'd better check my research, re: Intel on-chip video support, versus the monitor I have chosen: LG 22MB35DM-I 21.5" Monitor Full HD 1080p 1920x1080 IPS LED Back-lit, DVI-D, D-Sub, contrast ratios: (static 1,000:1), (dynamic 5M:1), reader mode, flicker-safe; --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 01/08/16 11:05 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
I'd better check my research, re: Intel on-chip video support, versus the monitor I have chosen:
LG 22MB35DM-I 21.5" Monitor Full HD 1080p 1920x1080 IPS LED Back-lit, DVI-D, D-Sub, contrast ratios: (static 1,000:1), (dynamic 5M:1), reader mode, flicker-safe;
Hi Steve, Any modern video card will easily drive that monitor. The only thing you need to be concerned about is if the video card and the monitor have a common interface. HDMI and DisplayPort are the two most common monitor interfaces these days. Given that you said that you are of advanced years, if you are anything like the older folks in my life, you may find it difficult to comfortably see text on that monitor. One of my elderly relatives ends up running Windows at 150% magnification to be able to read things comfortably. You may want to go for a larger monitor, like a 27" for example, at the same resolution. Retails stores will have 1080p monitors of various sizes on display so it should be relatively easy for you to see the differences for yourself. Also, you asked about "hard line". Hard line = POTS line (Plain Old Telephony Service) line = land line. I still do not get why you would not jump straight to DSL with your new system and forgo dial-up and the expense and hassles of setting up a modem. The USRobotics USB modem you were looking at is over $60. The "psychological stress" of the migration from Windows XP to Linux is orthogonal to how you get your Internet connection. In any event, using a dedicated firewall/router/gateway device will make the transition from dial-up to DSL/cable Internet service short work and quite painless. You can have such a device running in a matter of minutes once you have your DSL (or cable) modem installed and your ISP has activated the connection. It will be a matter of connecting an Ethernet cable from your Linux (or XP) box to the built-in Ethernet switch in your firewall/router/gateway to have Internet access. I have also read your comments about custom partitioning schemes. On the system on which I am typing this, I have a 32GB SSD(*), which I will replace with a 120GB SSD shortly, on which I install Linux. I also have a 1TB SSD and an 8TB Western Digital Red drive for other filesystems. I mount /home on the 1TB SSD and /data on the 8TB drive. When a new version of Fedora comes out, even though in-place updates work now, I do not bother. It is faster to simply do a fresh install. When I want to upgrade to a new version of Fedora, I make a copy of /etc/fstab to my home directory, shutdown the machine and unplug all disk drives except for the one onto which I plan to install Fedora, power up, and install. It is not strictly necessary to unplug the other drives but I do it for a couple of reasons. First, if I screw up the kickstart file that I use(**) and specify that the partitions should be cleared on the wrong device, I would have to recover all that data I accidentally deleted, thus making what is normally a 20 minute process into a day-long process. Second, if there is a bug in the installer and it clears partitions on the wrong device, I would be facing the same situation as the first case. I recall a distro that did this (I do not recall which one it was) about 10 years ago so I have been cautious ever since. A bug or a mistake cannot clear partitions on devices that are not connected to the bus. Once the installation has finished, I shutdown the machine. I then reconnect the drives that has been disconnected earlier, boot into the new Fedora installation, modify the /etc/fstab in the new installation to mount /home and /data using their UUID, which is why I had set aside the old fstab though I can always get device UUIDs using /sbin/blkid, and reboot. On reboot, everything in /home/cilkay will have been preserved, which means I do not have to configure all the stuff I had previously configured, like Cinnamon applets, virtual desktops, XChat, Chrome, Firefox, and Thunderbird extension, Thunderbird configuration for my various mail accounts, virtual machines, editor configurations, and so on. If I had to configure all that from scratch, I would be fiddling around for days. (*) I intend to purchase a fanless tiny PC that has two Ethernet ports on the motherboard to replace the Pentium II 266 Compaq small form factor machine with 128M of RAM and 4GB of disk running IPCop, a dedicated firewall distro, that I have been running since March 2004 and repurpose the 32GB SSD as the drive for the new machine. (**) I have a tftp and PXE server set up on my network and do kickstart installations when I want to upgrade. It makes for quick and repeatable installations. The Debian equivalent is a preseed installation, which I also do for creating virtual machines. You do not have to do this. You could boot from the ISO image and do a manual installation and not have to know a thing about scripted installations and my comments above regarding having filesystems on separate devices would still apply. In short, I would have Windows on its own device if it is not feasible for you to run Windows in a virtual machine, /home on another, and everything else for Linux on a second or third device depending on whether Windows is installed in a virtual machine or on physical hardware. 120GB for the second/third device is plenty. How big the device for a physical Windows installation should be depends on what you intend to do with it. By the way, I run Windows 7, 8, 10, and Server 2012 r2 in virtual machines running in VirtualBox. I have never encountered anything I could not do by running Windows in this manner. I know some people like to have Windows installed on the physical device in case there is a dependency on BIOS updates and such but that has not been an issue for any of the motherboards I have used. I would stay away from any motherboard that required Windows to do BIOS updates. -- Regards, Clifford Ilkay + 1 647-778-8696
| From: CLIFFORD ILKAY via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | (*) I intend to purchase a fanless tiny PC that has two Ethernet ports on the | motherboard to replace the Pentium II 266 Compaq small form factor machine | with 128M of RAM and 4GB of disk running IPCop, a dedicated firewall distro, | that I have been running since March 2004 and repurpose the 32GB SSD as the | drive for the new machine. Good plan. This has two NICs. It may or may not have a fan. It is cheap this week (and last week), especially if you count the rebate: <http://www.ncix.com/detail/zotac-zbox-ri323-barebone-mini-38-130690.htm> The processor is only 1.1GHz. Low power. No AES-NI (instructions to speed up crypto). Bare bones: you get to choose (and pay for) the OS, the RAM, and the disk.
On Mon, Aug 01, 2016 at 11:05:26AM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
I'd better check my research, re: Intel on-chip video support, versus the monitor I have chosen:
LG 22MB35DM-I 21.5" Monitor Full HD 1080p 1920x1080 IPS LED Back-lit, DVI-D, D-Sub, contrast ratios: (static 1,000:1), (dynamic 5M:1), reader mode, flicker-safe;
http://www.cablesonsale.ca/index.php/monoprice-6ft-28awg-displayport-to-dvi-... Simple displayport to DVI monitor connection. Not a big problem. -- Len Sorensen
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 03:12:51PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
Business desktops often seem to support VGA and DisplayPort. DVI is disappearing faster than VGA and HDMI isn't generally supported. This might affect the choice of monitor.
Well I like displayport. Most machines have DP+ which means a passive cable or adapter will give you DVI (single link) or HDMI or even VGA if you need it and it takes a lot less space, and if you want something highres and good, displayport can handle that too. My laptop has mini displayport, and I carry a minidisplayport to hdmi cable in my laptop bag along with an hdmi to dvi dongle. That covers most things I ever need to connect to. I suppose having a mini displayport to normal displayport cable could be handy but strangely I haven't encountered any displayport devices to connect to yet other than at home (where I do have that cable). Dual link DVI for older large screens that predate displayport are the only real problem. -- Len Sorensen
On 08/02/2016 10:51 AM, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
Well I like displayport. Well, I like HDMI/DVI. I have a HDMI & USB KWM switch that works well. My desktop has a DVI port and my notebook computer, along with a Rogers cable box, have HDMI. A simple HDMI/DVI adapter works well between the KVM and desktop computer.
On Tue, Aug 02, 2016 at 11:31:55AM -0400, James Knott wrote:
Well, I like HDMI/DVI. I have a HDMI & USB KWM switch that works well. My desktop has a DVI port and my notebook computer, along with a Rogers cable box, have HDMI. A simple HDMI/DVI adapter works well between the KVM and desktop computer.
Unfortunately HDMI and DVI have severe limitations for resolution of the screen. If things actually supported modern HDMI specs, it would be less of an issue, but PCs often don't. But given the trivial cable needed to conenct displayport to DVI or HDMI, it's not really a problem to use legacy equipment. Well except dual-link DVI. That is a problem. But HDMI can't do that either (since HDMI type B connector never seems to have cought on). -- Len Sorensen
On Aug 1, 2016 11:05 AM, "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hello Hugh,
<snip>
Business desktops often seem to support VGA and DisplayPort. DVI is disappearing faster than VGA and HDMI isn't generally supported. This might affect the choice of monitor.
Hmmm -- thanks for the tip.
I'd better check my research, re: Intel on-chip video support, versus the monitor I have chosen:
Here's a link to Intel's graphics stack for haswell and broadwell GPU's under Linux. There is source for DIY etc. from may. Looks like good news for Fedora frame. buffering. https://01.org/linuxgraphics/downloads
LG 22MB35DM-I 21.5" Monitor Full HD 1080p 1920x1080 IPS LED Back-lit,
DVI-D, D-Sub,
contrast ratios: (static 1,000:1), (dynamic 5M:1), reader mode, flicker-safe;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Russell Sent from mobile
On Thu, Jul 28, 2016 at 1:48 PM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talkAlso FYI Tuesdays after 6pm is the open house.
I looked at the website -- amazing !! Reminds me of my 1960s "hippie commune" days. Only Hacklab seems much more grown-up and productive of real results, than us incredibly naive "sex, drugs & rock'n'roll" hippie types were ...
Now that you mention it, a little 'sex, drugs and rock&roll' is about the only thing hacklab is missing ;-) Although these are modern times; even 'non-geeks' can be inspired to hack, or maybe 'geek out' on stuff. Cheers, Mike
participants (17)
-
Bob Jonkman -
Christopher Browne -
CLIFFORD ILKAY -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Giles Orr -
Ivan Avery Frey -
James Knott -
Lennart Sorensen -
Loui Chang -
Michael Galea -
Mike -
o1bigtenor -
phiscock＠ee.ryerson.ca -
Russell Reiter -
Steve Petrie, P.Eng. -
Stewart C. Russell -
William Park