Can the Internet exist without Linux? | ZDNet
Totally disagree with Steve on this one. In 96-97 I set up an ISP, and bsdi was one of the top choices. It was about 1000$ from what I remember, and cheaper for a workstation, and cheaper in bulk buys (digiboard drivers wo rked well on it, over linux at the time as well). In tech support, a few times I called up, I actually talked to to the likes of Kolstad , etc, so it was a small shop at the time, and prices would have dropped if sales were very high volume. (i was cust ~#2000 ish) If Linux didn't come along, BSDI and other player would have had to drop prices, and if Linux didn't come in, another would have, i.e. RMS and herd , etc. Who is to say in a few years even BSDi could have done "free", with a nice gig for paid support, etc. So at best Linux bought us a year (Still a great thing that is!), but not anything like the what the article says. If Linux never saw the light of day, the internet would be exactly as it is today, maybe Android would be a bit different :) but the internet would be the same. Am I biased!! used Linux/GNU/X for over a decade as my main desktop, servers for 15+ years etc, but I am also a realist , steve is smoking crack on this one big time. -tl On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 10:01 PM, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/can-the-internet-exist-without-linux/
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I have to admit I am not quite sure if I agree with you completely. The problem that the early BSD variants faced was AT&T licensing. If there was only BSD around it may have stayed closed for a long time even to today. What Linux brought to the table was a platform that was Unix like but did not depend on any previous encumbered code. Eventually linux developed enough of a following that the value for AT&T,SCO,Microsoft et al had no real value in trying to hold on to the rights. The trouble is that Linux is the culmination of lots of other peoples work. If RMS had not written GCC and the various Unix command line tools I doubt if Linux would exist as it does today. If tens of thousands of developers had not gifted application software to the project then Linux would be a nice little university students project and just about as popular as Minix. It would be much better to label that commercial as the world without FOSS. So yes the url posted could never be held up as an example of "truth in advertising". But on the other hand I don't think that there is any living example of "truth in advertising". On 01/12/2016 10:43 PM, ted leslie wrote:
Totally disagree with Steve on this one. In 96-97 I set up an ISP, and bsdi was one of the top choices. It was about 1000$ from what I remember, and cheaper for a workstation, and cheaper in bulk buys (digiboard drivers wo rked well on it, over linux at the time as well).
In tech support, a few times I called up, I actually talked to to the likes of Kolstad , etc, so it was a small shop at the time, and prices would have dropped if sales were very high volume. (i was cust ~#2000 ish) If Linux didn't come along, BSDI and other player would have had to drop prices, and if Linux didn't come in, another would have, i.e. RMS and herd , etc. Who is to say in a few years even BSDi could have done "free", with a nice gig for paid support, etc. So at best Linux bought us a year (Still a great thing that is!), but not anything like the what the article says. If Linux never saw the light of day, the internet would be exactly as it is today, maybe Android would be a bit different :) but the internet would be the same. Am I biased!! used Linux/GNU/X for over a decade as my main desktop, servers for 15+ years etc, but I am also a realist , steve is smoking crack on this one big time.
-tl
On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 10:01 PM, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com <mailto:james.knott@rogers.com>> wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/can-the-internet-exist-without-linux/
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-- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
On Wed, 2016/01/13 12:23:52AM -0500, Alvin Starr <alvin@netvel.net> wrote: | The problem that the early BSD variants faced was AT&T licensing. | If there was only BSD around it may have stayed closed for a long time | even to today. | | Eventually linux developed enough of a following that the value for | AT&T,SCO,Microsoft et al had no real value in trying to hold on to the | rights. I don't think that's a reasonable interpreation of the history. BSDI and AT&T settled in 1994, at which point I think it was fair to say that proprietary UNIX still had significant value. (Sun machines with Solaris were a huge part of the internet insfrastructure until the early 2000's - or later.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Software_Design My personal opinion is that if linux didn't exist, FreeBSD would likely be dominant, and that things would be very similar to what we currently have. Cheers! John
If I remember correctly BSDI was selling their variant until long after linux caught on. Remember the first distributions showed up in 1992 and we were building some small in house systems based on SLS and Yggdrasil at Siemens around that time. I could never prove it but my belief is that BSDI would have continued to sell their Unix if it were not for Linux. Bill Jolitz may have taken a run at a free system with his bsd variant but its not clear what would have happened with the various law suits floating around at that time.when we did some business with him a few years before he was very sensitive to the AT&T lawyers and was careful to insure source code did not leak out. I doubt that an established company would have brought out a free operating system just because the conventional wisdom was and still is that you need to protect your intellectual property and giving it away is madness. Almost all the original free software came from individuals or very small groups. I would bet that if Linus Torvalds knew how big linux were to become he would have licensed it some how. On 01/13/2016 01:12 AM, John Sellens wrote:
On Wed, 2016/01/13 12:23:52AM -0500, Alvin Starr <alvin@netvel.net> wrote: | The problem that the early BSD variants faced was AT&T licensing. | If there was only BSD around it may have stayed closed for a long time | even to today. | | Eventually linux developed enough of a following that the value for | AT&T,SCO,Microsoft et al had no real value in trying to hold on to the | rights.
I don't think that's a reasonable interpreation of the history. BSDI and AT&T settled in 1994, at which point I think it was fair to say that proprietary UNIX still had significant value. (Sun machines with Solaris were a huge part of the internet insfrastructure until the early 2000's - or later.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Software_Design
My personal opinion is that if linux didn't exist, FreeBSD would likely be dominant, and that things would be very similar to what we currently have.
Cheers!
John --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 09:47:34AM -0500, Alvin Starr wrote:
If I remember correctly BSDI was selling their variant until long after linux caught on. Remember the first distributions showed up in 1992 and we were building some small in house systems based on SLS and Yggdrasil at Siemens around that time.
I could never prove it but my belief is that BSDI would have continued to sell their Unix if it were not for Linux. Bill Jolitz may have taken a run at a free system with his bsd variant but its not clear what would have happened with the various law suits floating around at that time.when we did some business with him a few years before he was very sensitive to the AT&T lawyers and was careful to insure source code did not leak out.
I doubt that an established company would have brought out a free operating system just because the conventional wisdom was and still is that you need to protect your intellectual property and giving it away is madness.
Almost all the original free software came from individuals or very small groups. I would bet that if Linus Torvalds knew how big linux were to become he would have licensed it some how.
Certainly in the mid to late 90s there used to be a system for linux to allow executing BSDi binaries. These days it would be much more likely for people to want BSD to be able to execute linux binaries. But back then commercial software was compiled for BSDi, not linux. -- Len Sorensen
On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 09:47:34AM -0500, Alvin Starr wrote:
If I remember correctly BSDI was selling their variant until long after linux caught on. Remember the first distributions showed up in 1992 and we were building some small in house systems based on SLS and Yggdrasil at Siemens around that time.
I could never prove it but my belief is that BSDI would have continued to sell their Unix if it were not for Linux. Bill Jolitz may have taken a run at a free system with his bsd variant but its not clear what would have happened with the various law suits floating around at that time.when we did some business with him a few years before he was very sensitive to the AT&T lawyers and was careful to insure source code did not leak out.
I doubt that an established company would have brought out a free operating system just because the conventional wisdom was and still is that you need to protect your intellectual property and giving it away is madness.
Almost all the original free software came from individuals or very small groups. I would bet that if Linus Torvalds knew how big linux were to become he would have licensed it some how.
I don't know if he would have. He obviously (as per the original announcement) didn't think it would ever be anything other than a fun toy. -- Len Sorensen
On Wed, 2016/01/13 09:47:34AM -0500, Alvin Starr <alvin@netvel.net> wrote: | Almost all the original free software came from individuals or very | small groups. I would say that depends on what you define as "original". Many would consider the original BSD code as free, and that came from the University of California. Going back to the mid-80's there was lots of free software, much of it from large organizations or companies. Perhaps not officially, but it was there. John
We tried to buy BSD source for a project. The first task that was required was to get a V7 licence from AT&T. So BSD was only free to those who owned a Unix license already. On 01/13/2016 03:17 PM, John Sellens wrote:
On Wed, 2016/01/13 09:47:34AM -0500, Alvin Starr <alvin@netvel.net> wrote: | Almost all the original free software came from individuals or very | small groups.
I would say that depends on what you define as "original".
Many would consider the original BSD code as free, and that came from the University of California.
Going back to the mid-80's there was lots of free software, much of it from large organizations or companies. Perhaps not officially, but it was there.
John --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
On 13 January 2016 at 01:12, John Sellens <jsellens@syonex.com> wrote:
On Wed, 2016/01/13 12:23:52AM -0500, Alvin Starr <alvin@netvel.net> wrote: | The problem that the early BSD variants faced was AT&T licensing. | If there was only BSD around it may have stayed closed for a long time | even to today. | | Eventually linux developed enough of a following that the value for | AT&T,SCO,Microsoft et al had no real value in trying to hold on to the | rights.
I don't think that's a reasonable interpreation of the history. BSDI and AT&T settled in 1994, at which point I think it was fair to say that proprietary UNIX still had significant value. (Sun machines with Solaris were a huge part of the internet insfrastructure until the early 2000's - or later.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berkeley_Software_Design
My personal opinion is that if linux didn't exist, FreeBSD would likely be dominant, and that things would be very similar to what we currently have.
Cheers!
There were more systems than that, so I'm by no means certain that it would have been FreeBSD that would have dominated, though I'd keep it pretty high on the list. I remember using MiNT (which was Atari ST-specific, standing for MiNT is Not TOS), which was a POSIX-y environment back then. MINIX is what Linus Torvalds was most directly reacting to; had Linux not emerged, people would have doubtless found MINIX more interesting to hack on for longer. BeOS was a later emerged development, but nevertheless, still another of the UNIX-like systems that emerged in profusion. I wouldn't have been shocked to see Mortice Kern Systems have something emerge looking rather like a UNIX, based on the MKS toolkit (which was once popular on MS-DOS). Entertaining to quote from the Tanembaum/Torvalds feud: "Of course 5 years from now that will be different, but 5 years from now everyone will be running free GNU on their 200 MIPS, 64M SPARCstation-5." -- Andrew Tanenbaum, 1992. (Where "free GNU" is presumably a reference to GNU Hurd.) Some will remember QNX (which never was free, but it's local-ish, and interesting), fewer will remember VSTa. Mark Williams Company Coherent was a commercial Unix clone that was pretty clearly pushed out of the market by Linux. SCO used to be a big deal, back in the days when they produced decent systems, rather than playing legal games. My point isn't that any of these would individually have been "most likely" as alternatives to Linux; the point is that there really were a lot of would-be alternatives out there, and lots of people working on different fragments of the "alternative Unix" problem. I find it highly believable that efforts would have coalesced *somewhere* had the lawsuits relating to BSD kept up and Linux not been around. -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
On Wed, Jan 13, 2016 at 06:12:00PM -0500, Christopher Browne wrote:
There were more systems than that, so I'm by no means certain that it would have been FreeBSD that would have dominated, though I'd keep it pretty high on the list.
I remember using MiNT (which was Atari ST-specific, standing for MiNT is Not TOS), which was a POSIX-y environment back then.
MINIX is what Linus Torvalds was most directly reacting to; had Linux not emerged, people would have doubtless found MINIX more interesting to hack on for longer.
BeOS was a later emerged development, but nevertheless, still another of the UNIX-like systems that emerged in profusion.
BeOS was very NOT unix. The thing was so anti multiuser it made Microsoft look like they understood multiuser machines. It was multimedia performance above all else. User accounts and security was totally irrelevant to BeOS.
I wouldn't have been shocked to see Mortice Kern Systems have something emerge looking rather like a UNIX, based on the MKS toolkit (which was once popular on MS-DOS).
Entertaining to quote from the Tanembaum/Torvalds feud:
"Of course 5 years from now that will be different, but 5 years from now everyone will be running free GNU on their 200 MIPS, 64M SPARCstation-5." -- Andrew Tanenbaum, 1992.
(Where "free GNU" is presumably a reference to GNU Hurd.)
Some will remember QNX (which never was free, but it's local-ish, and interesting), fewer will remember VSTa. Mark Williams Company Coherent was a commercial Unix clone that was pretty clearly pushed out of the market by Linux. SCO used to be a big deal, back in the days when they produced decent systems, rather than playing legal games.
Part of QNX was temporarily open source. Then they changed their minds. It too is certainly not very unixy.
My point isn't that any of these would individually have been "most likely" as alternatives to Linux; the point is that there really were a lot of would-be alternatives out there, and lots of people working on different fragments of the "alternative Unix" problem.
I find it highly believable that efforts would have coalesced *somewhere* had the lawsuits relating to BSD kept up and Linux not been around.
-- Len Sorensen
On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 10:43:57PM -0500, ted leslie wrote:
Totally disagree with Steve on this one. In 96-97 I set up an ISP, and bsdi was one of the top choices. It was about 1000$ from what I remember, and cheaper for a workstation, and cheaper in bulk buys (digiboard drivers wo rked well on it, over linux at the time as well).
I got the impression a lot of ISPs ran Solaris in that era too.
In tech support, a few times I called up, I actually talked to to the likes of Kolstad , etc, so it was a small shop at the time, and prices would have dropped if sales were very high volume. (i was cust ~#2000 ish) If Linux didn't come along, BSDI and other player would have had to drop prices, and if Linux didn't come in, another would have, i.e. RMS and herd , etc. Who is to say in a few years even BSDi could have done "free", with a nice gig for paid support, etc. So at best Linux bought us a year (Still a great thing that is!), but not anything like the what the article says. If Linux never saw the light of day, the internet would be exactly as it is today, maybe Android would be a bit different :) but the internet would be the same.
Am I biased!! used Linux/GNU/X for over a decade as my main desktop, servers for 15+ years etc, but I am also a realist , steve is smoking crack on this one big time.
At least Linux and GNU showing up spared us from putting up with the horrors that are BSD user space and packaging (if you can even call it that). But certainly the internet could exist without linux, and it did before. -- Len Sorensen
Annoyingly in episode 3 of the video, the guy calls "/" backslash! ../Dave On 12 January 2016 at 22:01, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/can-the-internet-exist-without-linux/
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http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-users-never-heard-of-gnu.html http://www.gnu.org/gnu/linux-and-gnu.html http://www.gnu.org/gnu/why-gnu-linux.en.html http://www.gnu.org/gnu/gnu-linux-faq.html -- Peter <Renzland@gmail.com>
On Jan 12, 2016, at 22:01 , James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/can-the-internet-exist-without-linux/
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On Tue, Jan 12, 2016 at 10:01:27PM -0500, James Knott wrote:
http://www.zdnet.com/article/can-the-internet-exist-without-linux/
I do like the "Linus Torvalds, The Official Biography, Professional Burger Flipper" book cover. -- Len Sorensen
participants (8)
-
Alvin Starr -
Christopher Browne -
David Mason -
James Knott -
John Sellens -
Lennart Sorensen -
Peter Renzland -
ted leslie