On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 9:11 PM Scott Sullivan via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

On 8/7/20 6:49 PM, Aruna Hewapathirane via talk wrote:

...

Hello,

I stumbled across this recently: https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/

I can use some guidance and advice from folks who have experience with Raspberry Pi's. What I read so far looks good but I have questions.

If 'you' were to use a Raspberry Pi as a desktop replacement which one would you recommend?

Hello Aruna, I'll try to answer your questions in-line below.

Hello Scott thank you for taking the time.

...

Is there a major difference in response times between the 4Gb and 8Gb models ?

The amount of RAM does make a difference for performance. The software is able to keep more of the active data cached in RAM for faster access and more applications (or web browser tabs) can be kept open and actively used. As the ram is not upgradable, going for more RAM is advisable.

Oh-kay understood and makes sense. I will go with the 8Gb.

...

How hot does the unit become ? Does it require an add on fan shim ? Or will work fine without one ?

Rather Hot. There a lot options, including some very effective all aluminum cases that act as passive heat sinks.

I recommend going through some of the reviews by ETAPRIME.

https://www.youtube.com/c/ETAPRIME/search?query=heatsink

Hmm... thank's again.

...

How easy or difficult would it be to boot off an external hard disk as compared to the SD card that comes with the Pi ?

Typically, the Pi does not come with an SD card or any accessories. Which is why you will often see is bundles with an SD card, case and power supply.

But to answer your question. SD cards are the default way to boot. While support for USB boot was recently introduced. It may require you to update the firmware first, and doesn't look like it 'just works'. Caveat, I've not tried it myself yet.

https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/boot-raspberry-pi-4-usb

https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/booteeprom.md

https://www.raspberrypi.org/documentation/hardware/raspberrypi/bcm2711_bootl...

So it has USB boot with the Pi 4 I just have to change the FIRMWARE_RELEASE_STATUS value from "critical" to "stable."

...

Any other things to watch out for and be aware of before I purchase ? Instead of buying the kit would it be cheaper to buy each item separately from different vendors ?

I would certainly shop around. The case options are considerable, and getting either an aluminum case or one with a Fan is strongly recommended.

- https://elmwoodelectronics.ca/collections/raspberry-pi - https://www.creatroninc.com/category/raspberry-pi/ - https://www.buyapi.ca/

Alright I will shop around for a fan and aluminium case.

That being said, I will give one further thing to consider.

A Raspberry Pi 4 - 8GB is going to run you around $100 Canadian, + $30-50 for a good case, $15 for PSU, $30-80 for SD card or other storage. That's $200 or more. Well with in the lower ends of the used or refurbished desktop and laptops.

- https://www.freegeektoronto.org/shop/ - https://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?cPath=7_158_1934&sort=3a - https://www.canadacomputers.com/index.php?cPath=710_374&sort=3a

Can you tell us more about how you expect to use the computer? That would let us help narrow down your options more.

This is not for me. My uncle lives in Edmonton. He is in his late 70's and getting on. I visited him recently and he has an ancient desktop and my aunty has a laptop. Both run Windows 10. The modem+router is in their basement. The house has 3 levels. So the wifi signal has to get through two floors for my uncle and one floor for my aunty. Most times things are extremely slow. I could run an ethernet cable from the basement and wire a direct connection but did not have the time to do that this time. I have a couple of desktops lying around but Canada Post or Fedex or UPS will be very expensive if I was to ship them to Edmonton from Toronto and both my uncle and aunt are not technically savvy or inclined so even if I get it across someone has to hook up and test things before handing over to them. This is when I started exploring possible alternatives. A Pi has a very small form factor. Easily packaged and can be sent through Canada Post. Or if I manage to save enough to fly to Edmonton carrying a Pi or two will not be a issue as compared to checking in two desktops :-) And since everything will be set to go all they have to do is plug in the keyboard+mouse+monitor or TV and things should just work ? I still have to run a ethernet cable from the basement up to his room and my aunt's laptop which has no fixed location. Most times she uses it in the kitchen or dining table. Oh one more question, what can I do to increase the wifi signal from the basement up 3 floors ? I have very limited experience with modems and routers. I am now considering replacing my desktop with a Pi since the 8Gb Dual monitor version seems capable of doing what I want it to do. If there is anyone in Edmonton in the Castledowns area who has the experience and a few minutes to spare would it be possible to have a look at my uncle's basement and see what would be the best way to solve this ? If I decide to get a Pi for myself it will mostly be for tinkering and learning and compiling the Linux kernel. Thank you very much Scott for all the advice and guidance. Aruna

-- Scott Sullivan --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

On 2020-08-08 10:49 a.m., Scott Sullivan via talk wrote:

When you also factor in Keyboard, Mouse, and USB boot drive, your left with only one spare USB port, which could likely be taken up by a webcam.

You can use a USB type web cam with a Pi but you can don't need to. There is a special onboard connector that is meant to be used with a camera module. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ | "Nerds make the shiny things that https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and | that's why we're powerful" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 11:21 AM Kevin Cozens via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

On 2020-08-08 10:49 a.m., Scott Sullivan via talk wrote:

...

When you also factor in Keyboard, Mouse, and USB boot drive, your left with only one spare USB port, which could likely be taken up by a webcam.

You can use a USB type web cam with a Pi but you can don't need to. There is a special onboard connector that is meant to be used with a camera module.

Thank's Kevin I will look at what is available and works well with a Pi.

-- Cheers!

Kevin.

http://www.ve3syb.ca/ | "Nerds make the shiny things that https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and | that's why we're powerful" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

Just adding my two cents after reading this thread. Cooling (just an opinion, not based on diverse experience): - Pi 4 does not need cooling but it apparently makes a difference in performance under load. - passive cooling is "good enough". I use a FLIRC case <https://www.amazon.ca/Flirc-Raspberry-Pi-Case-Silver/dp/B07WG4DW52/> Passive means that it won't wear out. A lot more choices are available now. The price ($21.15) isn't too horrible. | From: Aruna Hewapathirane via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | This is not for me. My uncle lives in Edmonton. He is in his late 70's and | getting on. | I visited him recently and he has an ancient desktop and my aunty has a | laptop. Both | run Windows 10. The step from Win10 => Linux might or might not be hard for them. You don't really want to find out the hard way. For example, they might need some initial help that is hard to do remotely. Forcing them into new habits might or might not go well. I did switch my father from Windows to Linux when he started having trouble (in his late 80s). He barely noticed. But I wasn't a plane trip away. I guess you want two desktops. It might be best if they are very similar so that they can help each other. How much of their old systems is salvageable? - keyboard, mouse: USB, right? - display: CRT or LCD? Connectors: VGA, DVI, DisplayPort, or HDMI (likely some subset)? - cables, desks, ... The Raspberry Pi family is meant to invite play. Unfortunately, that's kind of the opposite of what you want. You can paper over much of that by configuring it yourself. Little things like power on / power off remain as possible problems. The first time you turn on a new conventional PC involves a lot of busywork. Windows requires a fair amount of stupid work. Some people even find that unboxing and plugging all the cables in is challenging. Other than that, I'd suggest ordering a PC of some sort to be delivered to their house: no additional expense. These days, notebooks are the right choice for most people. Less cabling, less trouble moving, less space, not too expensive. On the down side, the screens may be too small for folks with vision problems. I don't know how important price is to you. You could consider refurb stuff from Dell Financial Services. Not the cheapest but they are not fly by night. Supplies are a bit limited because of the lock-down. <https://www.dellrefurbished.com/> Shipping isn't free. There are also small X86 PCs. They are often as expensive as notebooks. But they might let your customers keep their existing keyboard, mouse, and monitor. For example, I have a few ThinkCentre M93p "tiny" computers. These people currently have them starting at $170. Not cheap. Getting old. Still getting updates from Lenovo! <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-hKAmQahPcEV_h5mwflWGLWCQtqkKOBDbsakv4ee2u0/edit#gid=0> Dell has SFF (Small Form Factor) PCs (a little larger than "tiny"). Here are some <https://www.dellrefurbished.com/desktop-computers?filter_brand=188&filter_chassis_type=242> | The modem+router is in their basement. The house has 3 | levels. So | the wifi signal has to get through two floors for my uncle and one floor | for my aunty. Mentioned before, but: Surely there is a way to move the modem/router. - if it is DSL, all you have to do is move the modem/router to another phone jack (and juggle the filters) - if it is cable, all you should have to do is move the modem/router to a different cable jack It would be odd if there were not a jack elsewhere. A Raspberry Pi's WiFi might not be great (I don't know). After all, its antena is just a squiggle on the PC board. | Most | times things are extremely slow. Why? Often a hard problem to answer, but without knowing why it is hard to know the best fixes. - old WiFi standard (eg. 802.11b)? - too many neighbours using the channel? - leaky microwave oven? - substandard broadband service? | I could run an ethernet cable from the | basement and wire | a direct connection but did not have the time to do that this time. That should not be necessary. I do like wired connections for security and for fewer/simpler ways of going wrong. I no longer even wire my TV PCs. | If there is anyone in Edmonton in the Castledowns area who has the | experience and a few minutes | to spare would it be possible to have a look at my uncle's basement and see | what would be the | best way to solve this ? There surely is, but asking the GTA LUG might not be the best way to discover them. Certainly you might find GTA people with Edmonton connections. Google finds: <https://groups.io/g/elug>

Sorry for the late entry, been a busy couple of days... Aruna, I'm glad that you found the info on the firmware upgrades enabling the Pi4 to run cooler. They indicate that fanless passive cooling is acceptable for most uses. The FLIRC is great because most of the case is one giant aluminum heat sink. It looks great and is my second favourite case right now. But if you're still looking, I suggest checking out the Argon ONE case. It also has great heatsink cooling, but also is the most PC like case. It puts all the ports at the back and includes a power switch. Reviews are easy to find, here's one: https://youtu.be/8VlE654abDo ... it might even help in Hugh's use case... - Evan

On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:39 PM <mwilson@vex.net> wrote:

...

Hello,

I stumbled across this recently: https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/

I can use some guidance and advice from folks who have experience with Raspberry Pi's. What I read so far looks good but I have questions.

If 'you' were to use a Raspberry Pi as a desktop replacement which one would you recommend?

Is there a major difference in response times between the 4Gb and 8Gb models ?

How hot does the unit become ? Does it require an add on fan shim ? Or will work fine without one ?

I started with a 4GByte kit from ABRA in Montreal. It did adequately replacing my old 1-core I386 desktop, mostly running Firefox and Gnu Image Manipulation Program. GIMP seemed to encounter strange crashes with many images open, so I lately upgraded to an 8GByte kit from CanaKit in BC, as soon as they announced the 8GB. It is also working well, with occasional GIMP crashes. I don't have anything like benchmark results to tell you.

Hi and thanks no bench marks necessary you just told me what I need to know. So Scott was right the more memory you have the more tabs+windows you can have :-)

Both kits came with a fan. The ABRA case+fan had an annoying resonant buzz that built up, until I replaced the steel bolts that held the fan with nylon.

Oh dear..

The CanaKit fan is a press fit onto studs molded into the case, so it was noisy from the get-go, with no chance for modification.

I guess any fan will generate some sort of noise. I

left the fan off. The 8GB board is running fine with the supplied aluminum heat sinks venting straight up through the opening in the case, Air coming out of the case is barely warmer than ambient, so under my workload, the fan seems totally optional.

Oh-kay this is something I have to test and double check. Besides my big 2 apps, the usual Linux/GNU stuff just works: networking,

rsync, ssh, apt-get, etc.

Sounds good :-)

I went with packaged kits, just to save my own time, and to be able to get to work as soon as the parcel arrived. I don't think I'd change.

I like to compile my stuff just so I can see how long it takes and sometimes I make customisations that require a re-compile. I sprang for a 128GB SD card, the medium size Raspbian image takes up 5%

space, 2% inodes.

I wonder how much the Pi supports when it comes to SD storage ?

...

How easy or difficult would it be to boot off an external hard disk as compared to the SD card that comes with the Pi ?

Any other things to watch out for and be aware of before I purchase ? Instead of buying the kit would it be cheaper to buy each item separately from different vendors ?

Thanks - Aruna --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

From: D. Hugh Redelmeier" <hugh@mimosa.com>

| From: mwilson--- via talk <talk@gtalug.org>

| [ GIMP crashes under Raspberry Pi OS ]

Last I checked, ordinary Raspbian was 32-bit only. If Gimp's memory use is within a single processs, it is limited to about 2 or 3G (I don't remember which) of your 8G.

Switching to a 64-bit OS would let Gimp use most of your 8G.

As for crashing: do you know what kind of crash is happening? Is it worth reporting?

Thanks. My only data point was that GIMP hadn't been crashing under I386 Debian. Next time I'll submit a crash report; it's the right thing to do. I guess the 4GB system will get random use as a wandering client. I already have a Pi3 running nginx as a local web server. The appeal is the slightly lower power requirement.

| From: D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | Switching to a 64-bit OS would let Gimp use most of your 8G. I should have mentioned that there is a beta of the 64-bit Raspberry Pi OS (the new name for Raspbian). It dates back to the end of may. <https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=275370> I haven't tried it. It should be easy since all it costs is the use of another SD card. Kind of like the old days when your OS lived on a floppy drive.

Hello Howard, On Fri, Aug 7, 2020 at 10:47 PM Howard Gibson via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 18:49:37 -0400 Aruna Hewapathirane via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

...

Hello,

I stumbled across this recently: https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/

I can use some guidance and advice from folks who have experience with Raspberry Pi's. What I read so far looks good but I have questions.

If 'you' were to use a Raspberry Pi as a desktop replacement which one would you recommend?

Aruna,

What do you want to accomplish?

I am trying to replace an existing desktop system with a Pi with hopefully no loss of productivity.

I have three computers that I use extensively. I have a proper desktop with a fairly old motherboard which I have just upgraded this week from 8GB RAM to 24GB. I have a fairly old Lenovo L440 laptop, which I have just upgraded from 4GB RAM to 10GB. I have an Acer Extensa desktop. The Extensa is a small desktop with what I assume is a laptop motherboard, which I have connected to my TV. I use it primarily to watch YouTube, Netflix and CBC Gem. It has 4GB RAM, and it seems to work fine. My other two machines are running way better now with the extra RAM. I think my laptop was getting into swap space, and it has stopped doing this, and I am very, very happy. I am an abusive user, scattering all sorts of applications all over my virtual windows, and opening all sorts of interesting tabs in all my browers. I like to play with Flight Gear when I am bored.

I believe that Raspbery Pis are used a lot for video streaming on people's TVs. This seems to be a manageable use of fairly low powered computers. How hard are you going to run this thing. I am not familiar with Raspberry Pis. They are on my ToDo list.

The hardest I will run that Pi will be when compiling the Linux Kernel and when making Video calls.

-- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca jhowardgibson@gmail.com http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 8:52 AM <mwilson@vex.net> wrote:

...

Hello, I stumbled across this recently: https://www.raspberrypi.org/products/raspberry-pi-4-model-b/ I can use some guidance and advice from folks who have experience with Raspberry Pi's. What I read so far looks good but I have questions. [ ... ] How hot does the unit become ? Does it require an add on fan shim ? Or will work fine without one ?

It occurred to me that I have some of the stuff to answer this. A thermocouple thermometer was reading 23.4degC ambient temperature this morning. I poked it into the 8GB Pi4B which had been running idle overnight, and the air temperature in the case near the processor read 37degC. A few minutes work with GIMP brought that slowly to 42.4degC. That's with no fan, only the convection past the heatsink. There's a hint to start with.

Thank you for going to all that trouble. Much appreciated.

<snip>

...

...

How hot does the unit become ? Does it require an add on fan shim ? Or will work fine without one ? [ ... ] the 8GB Pi4B which had been running idle overnight, and the air temperature in the case near the processor read 37degC. A few minutes work with GIMP brought that slowly to 42.4degC.

Thinking some more, the USB connections to my desktop Pi are keyboard, mouse, and a powered USB hub (plus an itinerant powered USB disk drive.) The Pi4 is spec'ed to provide up to 1.2A to USB peripherals. The fact that my system is hardly drawing any of that probably has a lot to do with its running so cool.

Good to know. Thank you.

--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

On 2020-08-08 3:21 p.m., Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:

The Raspberry Pi camera is also fixed focus and doesn't do audio. It's not useful for video calls.

There is a new(ish) high quality Pi camera with adjustable focus. See rpi.io/hqcam for details. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ | "Nerds make the shiny things that https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and | that's why we're powerful" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick

Hi Stewart, On Sat, Aug 8, 2020 at 3:21 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

Hi Aruna -

Just covering some points that didn't quite match my experience. 4GB Raspberry Pi 4 good, 8 GB better, which it sounds like you've discovered.

Yes thanks to Scott and others :-)

...

How hot does the unit become ? Does it require an add on fan shim ? Or will work fine without one ?

You can definitely get by without one. I have the temperature-controlled Pimoroni Fan Shim in one, and it very rarely operates. It used to run a lot before the firmware update late last year, but these days I barely notice it.

Oh-kay but am gonna get a fan just to be on the safe side. I am paranoid when it comes to hardware.

...

How easy or difficult would it be to boot off an external hard disk as compared to the SD card that comes with the Pi ?

More difficult, but not that hard. Note that the Raspberry Pi is picky about SATA adapters. This one has a chipset that will give you pretty close to the maximum speed possible with the Raspberry Pi 4's slightly wiggly data path: STARTECH USB 3.0 to 2.5" SATA III Hard Drive Adapter Cable w/ UASP —

https://www.canadacomputers.com/product_info.php?cPath=5_1336_96&item_id=085674

I am curious when you say slightly wiggly data path ? How wiggly ?

This may all get radically simpler when UEFI for the Raspberry Pi becomes a stable thing, but that's a little way off yet.

I hate UEFI always gives me a hard time when I have to do a dual boot linux/Windows installation.

...

Any other things to watch out for and be aware of before I purchase ?

If you do buy the full kit including keyboard and mouse, the compact keyboard and mouse are surprisingly good (for my values of "good"). It also has the clever feature of a 3-port USB hub built into the keyboard, so you can plug in the mouse and only use one port - and still have a nearby port for USB stick use.

I was thinking of getting a USB extender hub with 4 ports or similar.

The full kit comes with 2x micro-hdmi to HDMI cables. Absurd numbers of Raspberry Pi 4s are selling as dual-monitor thin clients, but note there's only room for *micro* HDMI connectors: it's hard to bodge with adapters.

Alright noted with thanks.

You also said:

...

The hardest I will run that Pi will be when compiling the Linux Kernel and when making Video calls.

Ah. The Raspberry Pi kernel is *not quite* mainline yet. Building a new kernel will likely lose you useful things in the stock kernel, such as 3d graphics acceleration and video acceleration. You also (currently) lose that if you run a 64-bit kernel.

Oh no-no I meant compiling the Raspberry Pi kernel itself. I found some code here: https://github.com/raspberrypi Again just to teach myself and see if I can make it have a smaller footprint.

The stock Raspberry Pi OS image (formerly known as Raspbian: it's Debian-based) has the best user experience. Every other distro hasn't got as much user support. The Raspberry Pi Foundation has a very definite view of how their desktop should look, so if you've done lots of customization to their LXDE-based desktop, it *will* all get reverted at the next refresh of the UI. This happens roughly quarterly.

So is the quarterly refresh of the UI automatic ? or you are given the option to choose and say yes go ahead or uh-uh stick with my modified one ?

Also, video calls: I don't know of any of the major video call providers that support ARM and Raspberry Pi. Google Meet through Chromium, maybe. Anything that requires a binary (so Zoom, Skype) is right out. Going to ARM from x86 for the first time can be a bit of a blow: the number of systems that only work on x86 is annoyingly high.

Video calls are what I use to stress test a system. I did find some links about making video calls using the Pi: Video Calling on Raspberry Pi 3 <https://www.instructables.com/id/Video-Calling-on-Raspberry-Pi-3/> Working from home with your Pi <https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/working-from-home-with-your-raspberry-pi/>Turn a Raspberry Pi, a Webcam and a TV into a video call ... <https://www.balena.io/blog/put-friends-and-loved-ones-on-the-big-screen-with-this-instant-video-call-project/>

The Raspberry Pi camera is also fixed focus and doesn't do audio. It's not useful for video calls.

Okay good to know again.

I don't know anyone well enough in the Edmonton area to help with installation, sorry.

No worries, you have been a big help. Thank you.

cheers, Stewart

cheers, Stewart --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk