Wanted: but beyond my ability to develop
A linux distro that instead of setting up dual boot, will automatically make a virtual copy of the boot partition and bring up the original OS in a virtual machine. The preferred configuration would be with a dedicated second display (since they are so cheap and universally available), but if only one display is available, it could create a generic virtual display a bit smaller than the host machine's display. It would be an option whether the VM would be brought up at every boot or only upon a simple command request. Another option would be with a second disk installed, so the original operating system's disk is left unchanged (or perhaps the partition shrunk to make room for a shared data partition, in which the original boot partition would have to be virtualized to protect the space removed from that operating system's exclusive control). when I asked simple ai-search, i was told such did not exist yet, and it would be difficult to run gaming in the VM, but I don't care if gaming will run there. Even cooler, with a second disk installed, would be to boot either OS (either disk) native, and automatically bring the other one up virtual... "standard" process: --shrink original primary partition to make room for linux --make partitions as desired and install linux in the new area --create disk image of boot cylinders/partition table, modified to not include linux and end where it starts --if desired, (not sure of details) duplicate virtual images of UEFI for linux or the original os, or make additional real partitions. I don't think they can share them, can they? --put linux boot into real boot cylinders --concatenate the virtual disk of the original boot cylinders with all of the other original OS partitions into a virtual disk used for booting the original OS in a virtual machine. Any naysayers saying "can't do that" or "too hard" will get my usual refrain... Carey
CAREY SCHUG via Talk said on Mon, 15 Sep 2025 08:10:19 -0500 (CDT)
A linux distro that instead of setting up dual boot, will automatically make a virtual copy of the boot partition and bring up the original OS in a virtual machine. The preferred configuration would be with a dedicated second display (since they are so cheap and universally available), but if only one display is available, it could create a generic virtual display a bit smaller than the host machine's display. It would be an option whether the VM would be brought up at every boot or only upon a simple command request. Another option would be with a second disk installed, so the original operating system's disk is left unchanged (or perhaps the partition shrunk to make room for a shared data partition, in which the original boot partition would have to be virtualized to protect the space removed from that operating system's exclusive control).
when I asked simple ai-search, i was told such did not exist yet, and it would be difficult to run gaming in the VM, but I don't care if gaming will run there.
Even cooler, with a second disk installed, would be to boot either OS (either disk) native, and automatically bring the other one up virtual...
"standard" process: --shrink original primary partition to make room for linux --make partitions as desired and install linux in the new area --create disk image of boot cylinders/partition table, modified to not include linux and end where it starts --if desired, (not sure of details) duplicate virtual images of UEFI for linux or the original os, or make additional real partitions. I don't think they can share them, can they? --put linux boot into real boot cylinders --concatenate the virtual disk of the original boot cylinders with all of the other original OS partitions into a virtual disk used for booting the original OS in a virtual machine.
Any naysayers saying "can't do that" or "too hard" will get my usual refrain...
Speaking for myself, *I* can't do that because it's too hard for me personally. So your objective is to end up with the original OS as a VM guest of the new distro you're installing, and the computer boots to the new distro. Do I have this right? SteveT Steve Litt http://444domains.com
On Mon, Sep 15, 2025 at 08:10:19AM -0500, CAREY SCHUG via Talk wrote:
A linux distro that instead of setting up dual boot, will automatically make a virtual copy of the boot partition and bring up the original OS in a virtual machine. The preferred configuration would be with a dedicated second display (since they are so cheap and universally available), but if only one display is available, it could create a generic virtual display a bit smaller than the host machine's display. It would be an option whether the VM would be brought up at every boot or only upon a simple command request. Another option would be with a second disk installed, so the original operating system's disk is left unchanged (or perhaps the partition shrunk to make room for a shared data partition, in which the original boot partition would have to be virtualized to protect the space removed from that operating system's exclusive control).
when I asked simple ai-search, i was told such did not exist yet, and it would be difficult to run gaming in the VM, but I don't care if gaming will run there.
Even cooler, with a second disk installed, would be to boot either OS (either disk) native, and automatically bring the other one up virtual...
"standard" process: --shrink original primary partition to make room for linux --make partitions as desired and install linux in the new area --create disk image of boot cylinders/partition table, modified to not include linux and end where it starts --if desired, (not sure of details) duplicate virtual images of UEFI for linux or the original os, or make additional real partitions. I don't think they can share them, can they? --put linux boot into real boot cylinders --concatenate the virtual disk of the original boot cylinders with all of the other original OS partitions into a virtual disk used for booting the original OS in a virtual machine.
Any naysayers saying "can't do that" or "too hard" will get my usual refrain...
Is it allowed to make the requirements that the OS being moved can not be using secureboot, disk encryption, and various other things that would probably make putting it into a VM impossible? Probably need to disable suspend to disk since being woken up on different "hardware" than you went to sleep on might not go well. But if you disable all of those, and assuming the VM can emulate the same device types as the real hardware (fairly likely in most cases), then it should be doable. I do remember many years ago having the ability to boot native or in a VM for some OS installation. I don't remember why we tried it. UEFI is the firmware of the system. Not something you copy. The boot partition can be shared between OSs. -- Len Sorensen
reminder again, this is to make it easier for a windows person to install linux but still have access to all their windows programs without having to boot back and forth all the time. try the linux version of some application, and compare it side by side with the windows version. Heck, even plug in two keyboards and have like two computers. Or with symmetry, boot windows and still have their full gaming abilities there, plus transition to linux for all the compute and database activity.
On 09/15/2025 9:30 AM CDT Lennart Sorensen <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
Is it allowed to make the requirements that the OS being moved can not be using secureboot, disk encryption, and various other things that would probably make putting it into a VM impossible? Probably need to disable suspend to disk since being woken up on different "hardware" than you went to sleep on might not go well.
--ok on secureboot, I'm still confused enough to not understand --i assume for disk encryption you mean full disk encryption. it seems to me (and I could be wrong) transparent encryption should be ok. --since I think there are (built in or add-on?) schemes for pushing a running os to disk and migrating it to different hardware for the purpose of nonstop operation, it should be just as easy for that other hardware to actually be a virtual image (I think that was commonly done on other hardware in the 1990s) And for the option of having a second disk so each disk is original, that secure boot and full disk encryption should still work. maybe need to have a third physical disk to share space between the operating systems?
But if you disable all of those, and assuming the VM can emulate the same device types as the real hardware (fairly likely in most cases), then it should be doable. I do remember many years ago having the ability to boot native or in a VM for some OS installation. I don't remember why we tried it.
UEFI is the firmware of the system. Not something you copy. The boot partition can be shared between OSs.
how would that work if each os had it's own dedicated physical disk? would there still only be one uefi, even if booting off the other physical disk?
Nice to see the reply coming from the original hotbed of virtualization...university of waterloo Carey
On Mon, Sep 15, 2025 at 08:10:19AM -0500, CAREY SCHUG via Talk wrote:
A linux distro that instead of setting up dual boot, will automatically make a virtual copy of the boot partition and bring up the original OS in a virtual machine. The preferred configuration would be with a dedicated second display (since they are so cheap and universally available), but if only one display is available, it could create a generic virtual display a bit smaller than the host machine's display. It would be an option whether the VM would be brought up at every boot or only upon a simple command request. Another option would be with a second disk installed, so the original operating system's disk is left unchanged (or perhaps the partition shrunk to make room for a shared data partition, in which the original boot partition would have to be virtualized to protect the space removed from that operating system's exclusive control).
when I asked simple ai-search, i was told such did not exist yet, and it would be difficult to run gaming in the VM, but I don't care if gaming will run there.
Even cooler, with a second disk installed, would be to boot either OS (either disk) native, and automatically bring the other one up virtual...
"standard" process: --shrink original primary partition to make room for linux --make partitions as desired and install linux in the new area --create disk image of boot cylinders/partition table, modified to not include linux and end where it starts --if desired, (not sure of details) duplicate virtual images of UEFI for linux or the original os, or make additional real partitions. I don't think they can share them, can they? --put linux boot into real boot cylinders --concatenate the virtual disk of the original boot cylinders with all of the other original OS partitions into a virtual disk used for booting the original OS in a virtual machine.
Any naysayers saying "can't do that" or "too hard" will get my usual refrain...
It's more complicated than you think. Secureboot oversimplified: the boot record must be signed by someone, and the signature is checked by the TPM. If it fails, the OS does not load. The VM cannot interface with Secureboot on behalf of the guest OS and it won't load. Disk Encryption: on Windows, Bitlocker needs to talk to TPM directly so it can get the disk encryption keys. Again, the VM-host cannot do it on behalf of the guest (AFAIK, I may be wrong). Hardware: some can be sent straight to the VM, but not everything. The emulated ones are not the same as the real ones, so you will need drivers for those. Windows may complain that your license was for another system because the current one is very different. If you don't mind making this an one-way process, DISK2VHD (from Microsoft) can convert your non-Bitlocker Windows installation from physical hardware to a VHD that can be loaded on Hyper-V or qemu later. Performance isn't great but works. If the idea is converting an installation and running games on it later, it's like running on hardware from 3-4 generations ago. I tried creating a guest with raw disk access instead of a VHD a long time ago (Windows 7 IIRC), and it worked. Once. Booting Windows on the real disk later killed it. Mauro https://www.maurosouza.com - registered Linux User: 294521 Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God. On Mon, Sep 15, 2025 at 12:02 PM CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
reminder again, this is to make it easier for a windows person to install linux but still have access to all their windows programs without having to boot back and forth all the time. try the linux version of some application, and compare it side by side with the windows version. Heck, even plug in two keyboards and have like two computers. Or with symmetry, boot windows and still have their full gaming abilities there, plus transition to linux for all the compute and database activity.
On 09/15/2025 9:30 AM CDT Lennart Sorensen <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote:
Is it allowed to make the requirements that the OS being moved can not be using secureboot, disk encryption, and various other things that would probably make putting it into a VM impossible? Probably need to disable suspend to disk since being woken up on different "hardware" than you went to sleep on might not go well.
--ok on secureboot, I'm still confused enough to not understand
--i assume for disk encryption you mean full disk encryption. it seems to me (and I could be wrong) transparent encryption should be ok.
--since I think there are (built in or add-on?) schemes for pushing a running os to disk and migrating it to different hardware for the purpose of nonstop operation, it should be just as easy for that other hardware to actually be a virtual image (I think that was commonly done on other hardware in the 1990s)
And for the option of having a second disk so each disk is original, that secure boot and full disk encryption should still work. maybe need to have a third physical disk to share space between the operating systems?
But if you disable all of those, and assuming the VM can emulate the same device types as the real hardware (fairly likely in most cases), then it should be doable. I do remember many years ago having the ability to boot native or in a VM for some OS installation. I don't remember why we tried it.
UEFI is the firmware of the system. Not something you copy. The boot partition can be shared between OSs.
how would that work if each os had it's own dedicated physical disk?
would there still only be one uefi, even if booting off the other physical disk?
Nice to see the reply coming from the original hotbed of virtualization...university of waterloo
Carey
A linux distro that instead of setting up dual boot, will automatically make a virtual copy of the boot partition and bring up the original OS in a virtual machine. The preferred configuration would be with a dedicated second display (since they are so cheap and universally available), but if only one display is available, it could create a generic virtual display a bit smaller than the host machine's display. It would be an option whether the VM would be brought up at every boot or only upon a simple command request. Another option would be with a second disk installed, so the original operating system's disk is left unchanged (or
On Mon, Sep 15, 2025 at 08:10:19AM -0500, CAREY SCHUG via Talk wrote: perhaps the partition shrunk to make room for a shared data partition, in which the original boot partition would have to be virtualized to protect the space removed from that operating system's exclusive control).
when I asked simple ai-search, i was told such did not exist yet, and
it would be difficult to run gaming in the VM, but I don't care if gaming will run there.
Even cooler, with a second disk installed, would be to boot either OS
(either disk) native, and automatically bring the other one up virtual...
"standard" process: --shrink original primary partition to make room for linux --make partitions as desired and install linux in the new area --create disk image of boot cylinders/partition table, modified to not
--if desired, (not sure of details) duplicate virtual images of UEFI for linux or the original os, or make additional real partitions. I don't
--put linux boot into real boot cylinders --concatenate the virtual disk of the original boot cylinders with all of the other original OS partitions into a virtual disk used for booting
include linux and end where it starts think they can share them, can they? the original OS in a virtual machine.
Any naysayers saying "can't do that" or "too hard" will get my usual
refrain...
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Yes and no. I asked The Unreliable Robot, and it said:
o
Practical Workflow
Transfer the VHD file to your Linux system Convert it using qemu-img to your preferred format Use it with KVM/QEMU, VirtualBox, or your chosen hypervisor
The conversion process preserves the disk contents, so a Windows system imaged with DISK2VHD should boot normally after conversion, assuming you have appropriate virtualization software configured on Linux.
Comments from actual humans suggest it's just barely possible (:-)) The hard parst are things like getting pass-throughs to work for video cards, etc. Alas, those are machine-specific, so it probably requires human intervention. --dave On 9/15/25 11:55, Mauro Souza via Talk wrote:
It's more complicated than you think.
Secureboot oversimplified: the boot record must be signed by someone, and the signature is checked by the TPM. If it fails, the OS does not load. The VM cannot interface with Secureboot on behalf of the guest OS and it won't load. Disk Encryption: on Windows, Bitlocker needs to talk to TPM directly so it can get the disk encryption keys. Again, the VM-host cannot do it on behalf of the guest (AFAIK, I may be wrong). Hardware: some can be sent straight to the VM, but not everything. The emulated ones are not the same as the real ones, so you will need drivers for those. Windows may complain that your license was for another system because the current one is very different.
If you don't mind making this an one-way process, DISK2VHD (from Microsoft) can convert your non-Bitlocker Windows installation from physical hardware to a VHD that can be loaded on Hyper-V or qemu later. Performance isn't great but works. If the idea is converting an installation and running games on it later, it's like running on hardware from 3-4 generations ago.
I tried creating a guest with raw disk access instead of a VHD a long time ago (Windows 7 IIRC), and it worked. Once. Booting Windows on the real disk later killed it.
Mauro https://www.maurosouza.com - registered Linux User: 294521 Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God.
On Mon, Sep 15, 2025 at 12:02 PM CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
reminder again, this is to make it easier for a windows person to install linux but still have access to all their windows programs without having to boot back and forth all the time. try the linux version of some application, and compare it side by side with the windows version. Heck, even plug in two keyboards and have like two computers. Or with symmetry, boot windows and still have their full gaming abilities there, plus transition to linux for all the compute and database activity.
> On 09/15/2025 9:30 AM CDT Lennart Sorensen <lsorense@csclub.uwaterloo.ca> wrote: > > > Is it allowed to make the requirements that the OS being moved can not > be using secureboot, disk encryption, and various other things that > would probably make putting it into a VM impossible? Probably need to > disable suspend to disk since being woken up on different "hardware" > than you went to sleep on might not go well.
--ok on secureboot, I'm still confused enough to not understand
--i assume for disk encryption you mean full disk encryption. it seems to me (and I could be wrong) transparent encryption should be ok.
--since I think there are (built in or add-on?) schemes for pushing a running os to disk and migrating it to different hardware for the purpose of nonstop operation, it should be just as easy for that other hardware to actually be a virtual image (I think that was commonly done on other hardware in the 1990s)
And for the option of having a second disk so each disk is original, that secure boot and full disk encryption should still work. maybe need to have a third physical disk to share space between the operating systems?
> > But if you disable all of those, and assuming the VM can emulate the > same device types as the real hardware (fairly likely in most cases), > then it should be doable. I do remember many years ago having the > ability to boot native or in a VM for some OS installation. I don't > remember why we tried it.
> > UEFI is the firmware of the system. Not something you copy. The boot > partition can be shared between OSs.
how would that work if each os had it's own dedicated physical disk?
would there still only be one uefi, even if booting off the other physical disk? >
Nice to see the reply coming from the original hotbed of virtualization...university of waterloo
Carey
> On Mon, Sep 15, 2025 at 08:10:19AM -0500, CAREY SCHUG via Talk wrote: > > A linux distro that instead of setting up dual boot, will automatically make a virtual copy of the boot partition and bring up the original OS in a virtual machine. The preferred configuration would be with a dedicated second display (since they are so cheap and universally available), but if only one display is available, it could create a generic virtual display a bit smaller than the host machine's display. It would be an option whether the VM would be brought up at every boot or only upon a simple command request. Another option would be with a second disk installed, so the original operating system's disk is left unchanged (or perhaps the partition shrunk to make room for a shared data partition, in which the original boot partition would have to be virtualized to protect the space removed from that operating system's exclusive control). > > > > when I asked simple ai-search, i was told such did not exist yet, and it would be difficult to run gaming in the VM, but I don't care if gaming will run there. > > > > Even cooler, with a second disk installed, would be to boot either OS (either disk) native, and automatically bring the other one up virtual... > > > > "standard" process: > > --shrink original primary partition to make room for linux > > --make partitions as desired and install linux in the new area > > --create disk image of boot cylinders/partition table, modified to not include linux and end where it starts > > --if desired, (not sure of details) duplicate virtual images of UEFI for linux or the original os, or make additional real partitions. I don't think they can share them, can they? > > --put linux boot into real boot cylinders > > --concatenate the virtual disk of the original boot cylinders with all of the other original OS partitions into a virtual disk used for booting the original OS in a virtual machine. > > > > Any naysayers saying "can't do that" or "too hard" will get my usual refrain... > ------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/C4HMEFL...
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-- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain
On 2025-09-15 11:01, CAREY SCHUG via Talk wrote:
reminder again, this is to make it easier for a windows person to install linux but still have access to all their windows programs without having to boot back and forth all the time. try the linux version of some application, and compare it side by side with the windows version. Heck, even plug in two keyboards and have like two computers.
I don't know if a VM can be set to use a keyboard other than the main one used with the computer. It might depend on which VM you use. I haven't noticed a setting regarding use of a second keyboard in virtualbox. I currently have two different installs of Windows that I can run using virtualbox. I looked in to whether virtualbox could use the install of Windows I have in a separate partition. It is supposed to be possible but it looked a bit complicated to set up. -- Cheers! Kevin. https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | "Nerds make the shiny things that | distract the mouth-breathers, and Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | that's why we're powerful" #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
isn't a keyboard just a serial device? ai/search said a serial port can be assigned to a virtual machine....i really hate going back to my usual refrain. if necessary, use adapters for a usb or din mouse to a db9 serial port, assign to the virtual machine, THEN plug in the mouse and per search/AI "The mousedev interface is also available for legacy applications that expect a PS/2-style mouse protocol. The system dynamically creates these device files when a mouse is plugged in, ensuring compatibility with both modern and older software." ditto, for keyboards And I thought I recalled seeing a game that talked about having two players, each with their own mouse or keyboard, playing against each other on one computer. many years ago. Can an I/O hardware address just be passed to a virtual machine, so the host does NOTHING to the data, doesn't buffer it (so no buffer overrun attack, etc), doesn't try to determine what kind of device it is, nothing except pass through to virtual machine? Now granted for that 400 gigabit network port, perhaps virtualization can't keep up with the interrupts and state switching to the guest, since the device cannot slow down, but I am not likely to have one on my home computer. (i checked, AI seems to think 400gb/s is the fastest currently available). Is there some committee somewhere I can make suggestions to bring virtualization up to the 20th (yes, 20th) century? including hardware upgrades to chips? truly independent channels in hardware that can be passed through to virtual machines and so make the host immune to any malware that exploits software unable to defend against incoming data violating protocols? Carey
On 09/15/2025 10:16 PM CDT Kevin Cozens via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2025-09-15 11:01, CAREY SCHUG via Talk wrote:
reminder again, this is to make it easier for a windows person to install linux but still have access to all their windows programs without having to boot back and forth all the time. try the linux version of some application, and compare it side by side with the windows version. Heck, even plug in two keyboards and have like two computers.
I don't know if a VM can be set to use a keyboard other than the main one used with the computer. It might depend on which VM you use. I haven't noticed a setting regarding use of a second keyboard in virtualbox.
I currently have two different installs of Windows that I can run using virtualbox. I looked in to whether virtualbox could use the install of Windows I have in a separate partition. It is supposed to be possible but it looked a bit complicated to set up.
On Mon, Sep 15, 2025 at 11:41:13PM -0500, CAREY SCHUG via Talk wrote:
isn't a keyboard just a serial device? ai/search said a serial port can be assigned to a virtual machine....i really hate going back to my usual refrain. Well traditionally keyboards were effectively a serial device, but not RS232 serial. Now they are USB HID (human interface device). If you were to run two separate X11 (or perhaps wayland) instances, you could assign different input devices to each one along with different displays to each one, and you could run the virtual machine in one session, while using the other session for linux things. There are documents out there on how to setup a system for multi seat and this could be done with that.
if necessary, use adapters for a usb or din mouse to a db9 serial port, assign to the virtual machine, THEN plug in the mouse and per search/AI "The mousedev interface is also available for legacy applications that expect a PS/2-style mouse protocol. The system dynamically creates these device files when a mouse is plugged in, ensuring compatibility with both modern and older software."
ditto, for keyboards
And I thought I recalled seeing a game that talked about having two players, each with their own mouse or keyboard, playing against each other on one computer. many years ago.
I have seen a joystick per player. I have seen a mouse per player (although extremely rarely). Never seen a keyboard per player. The Amiga version of lemmings supported using two mice with split screen play for two players.
Can an I/O hardware address just be passed to a virtual machine, so the host does NOTHING to the data, doesn't buffer it (so no buffer overrun attack, etc), doesn't try to determine what kind of device it is, nothing except pass through to virtual machine? Now granted for that 400 gigabit network port, perhaps virtualization can't keep up with the interrupts and state switching to the guest, since the device cannot slow down, but I am not likely to have one on my home computer. (i checked, AI seems to think 400gb/s is the fastest currently available).
For PCIe devices, some support being passed through to a VM. If the host supports iommu and VTd. Common on server hardware, less common on desktop hardware, and on desktop systems even if they support it, it is almost always disabled in the BIOS (or UEFI) settings so you would need to go enable all the right settings before it could work. Having to do that is probably contrary to the goal of being usable by less experienced users.
Is there some committee somewhere I can make suggestions to bring virtualization up to the 20th (yes, 20th) century? including hardware upgrades to chips? truly independent channels in hardware that can be passed through to virtual machines and so make the host immune to any malware that exploits software unable to defend against incoming data violating protocols?
I think the ability to protect a guest from malware would be called magic. Not going to happen. "Stop all bad stuff" is not a well defined feature and hence can't be implemented. If you allow a system to have access to the network, it is going to have access to the network. The only way to make a windows system that is no longer getting security support safe from the internet is to not allow it any network access. A virtual machine doesn't change any of that. Network cards often support virtual functions which allows you to give a limited copy of the network card to a VM while allowed the host to keep the main instance of the network card. A few other types of hardware also has virtual functions, but I have mainly seen it on network cards since there it is pretty clear what it should do. Sharing a video card is a lot harder. I suppose letting each instance have one display output might work, although there is still sharing of rendering and memory resources which could get complicated. So yes the hardware to do this exists and has been supported for years, but usually only on server hardware since that is where people wanted to use it. -- Len Sorensen
On Mon, Sep 15, 2025 at 10:01:24AM -0500, CAREY SCHUG wrote:
reminder again, this is to make it easier for a windows person to install linux but still have access to all their windows programs without having to boot back and forth all the time. try the linux version of some application, and compare it side by side with the windows version. Heck, even plug in two keyboards and have like two computers. Or with symmetry, boot windows and still have their full gaming abilities there, plus transition to linux for all the compute and database activity.
--ok on secureboot, I'm still confused enough to not understand
--i assume for disk encryption you mean full disk encryption. it seems to me (and I could be wrong) transparent encryption should be ok.
Any disk encryption on windows, since disk encryption on windows means bitlocker these days (and has for many years).
--since I think there are (built in or add-on?) schemes for pushing a running os to disk and migrating it to different hardware for the purpose of nonstop operation, it should be just as easy for that other hardware to actually be a virtual image (I think that was commonly done on other hardware in the 1990s)
And for the option of having a second disk so each disk is original, that secure boot and full disk encryption should still work. maybe need to have a third physical disk to share space between the operating systems?
The problem with disk encryption in the case of windows is that it uses the TPM hardware for the key, and that you can't transfer to a VM. So you have to disable bitlocker entirely to do a transfer to a VM. Windows even has to pause bitlocker when doing UEFI updates of the system since that tends to cause changes to TPM that breaks decrypting the disk. It is very fragile.
how would that work if each os had it's own dedicated physical disk?
The only difference having two drives causes is not having to repartition the drive to make room for the other OS to install.
would there still only be one uefi, even if booting off the other physical disk?
UEFI is the modern replacement of the BIOS. It is part of the motherboard, not the disk or the OS. Normally the boot partition (ESP) is shared even when dual booting under UEFI.
Nice to see the reply coming from the original hotbed of virtualization...university of waterloo
I just keep using my computer science club email because I have been using it for 30 years now. -- Len Sorensen
I left out that it might be a way fo get die-hard windows people to install, since they would have windows available for apps that only exist there, without the hassle of rebooting back and forth. Carey
On 09/15/2025 8:10 AM CDT CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
A linux distro that instead of setting up dual boot, will automatically make a virtual copy of the boot partition and bring up the original OS in a virtual machine. The preferred configuration would be with a dedicated second display (since they are so cheap and universally available), but if only one display is available, it could create a generic virtual display a bit smaller than the host machine's display. It would be an option whether the VM would be brought up at every boot or only upon a simple command request. Another option would be with a second disk installed, so the original operating system's disk is left unchanged (or perhaps the partition shrunk to make room for a shared data partition, in which the original boot partition would have to be virtualized to protect the space removed from that operating system's exclusive control).
when I asked simple ai-search, i was told such did not exist yet, and it would be difficult to run gaming in the VM, but I don't care if gaming will run there.
Even cooler, with a second disk installed, would be to boot either OS (either disk) native, and automatically bring the other one up virtual...
"standard" process: --shrink original primary partition to make room for linux --make partitions as desired and install linux in the new area --create disk image of boot cylinders/partition table, modified to not include linux and end where it starts --if desired, (not sure of details) duplicate virtual images of UEFI for linux or the original os, or make additional real partitions. I don't think they can share them, can they? --put linux boot into real boot cylinders --concatenate the virtual disk of the original boot cylinders with all of the other original OS partitions into a virtual disk used for booting the original OS in a virtual machine.
Any naysayers saying "can't do that" or "too hard" will get my usual refrain...
As others mentioned, you used to be able to copy a raw disk to a file, and run whatever OS that was there as VM. I did that with Qemu/kvm, but it was dog slow, and never got GUI to work properly. Nowadays, too many things are hardware locked, eg. secureboot, TPM, bitlocker, UEFI, BIOS, etc. What you seem to want is 2 OS running at the same time, on separate monitor. You would need to rewrite Linux as "mainframe". On 2025-09-15 09:10, CAREY SCHUG via Talk wrote:
A linux distro that instead of setting up dual boot, will automatically make a virtual copy of the boot partition and bring up the original OS in a virtual machine. The preferred configuration would be with a dedicated second display (since they are so cheap and universally available), but if only one display is available, it could create a generic virtual display a bit smaller than the host machine's display. It would be an option whether the VM would be brought up at every boot or only upon a simple command request. Another option would be with a second disk installed, so the original operating system's disk is left unchanged (or perhaps the partition shrunk to make room for a shared data partition, in which the original boot partition would have to be virtualized to protect the space removed from that operating system's exclusive control). when I asked simple ai-search, i was told such did not exist yet, and it would be difficult to run gaming in the VM, but I don't care if gaming will run there. Even cooler, with a second disk installed, would be to boot either OS (either disk) native, and automatically bring the other one up virtual... "standard" process: --shrink original primary partition to make room for linux --make partitions as desired and install linux in the new area --create disk image of boot cylinders/partition table, modified to not include linux and end where it starts --if desired, (not sure of details) duplicate virtual images of UEFI for linux or the original os, or make additional real partitions. I don't think they can share them, can they? --put linux boot into real boot cylinders --concatenate the virtual disk of the original boot cylinders with all of the other original OS partitions into a virtual disk used for booting the original OS in a virtual machine. Any naysayers saying "can't do that" or "too hard" will get my usual refrain...
Carey
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With multi kernel <https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20250922#news> coming soon, all we need is "multi filesystem" and we can run multiple distros. On 2025-09-15 16:04, William Park via Talk wrote:
As others mentioned, you used to be able to copy a raw disk to a file, and run whatever OS that was there as VM. I did that with Qemu/kvm, but it was dog slow, and never got GUI to work properly. Nowadays, too many things are hardware locked, eg. secureboot, TPM, bitlocker, UEFI, BIOS, etc.
What you seem to want is 2 OS running at the same time, on separate monitor. You would need to rewrite Linux as "mainframe".
On 2025-09-15 09:10, CAREY SCHUG via Talk wrote:
A linux distro that instead of setting up dual boot, will automatically make a virtual copy of the boot partition and bring up the original OS in a virtual machine. The preferred configuration would be with a dedicated second display (since they are so cheap and universally available), but if only one display is available, it could create a generic virtual display a bit smaller than the host machine's display. It would be an option whether the VM would be brought up at every boot or only upon a simple command request. Another option would be with a second disk installed, so the original operating system's disk is left unchanged (or perhaps the partition shrunk to make room for a shared data partition, in which the original boot partition would have to be virtualized to protect the space removed from that operating system's exclusive control). when I asked simple ai-search, i was told such did not exist yet, and it would be difficult to run gaming in the VM, but I don't care if gaming will run there. Even cooler, with a second disk installed, would be to boot either OS (either disk) native, and automatically bring the other one up virtual... "standard" process: --shrink original primary partition to make room for linux --make partitions as desired and install linux in the new area --create disk image of boot cylinders/partition table, modified to not include linux and end where it starts --if desired, (not sure of details) duplicate virtual images of UEFI for linux or the original os, or make additional real partitions. I don't think they can share them, can they? --put linux boot into real boot cylinders --concatenate the virtual disk of the original boot cylinders with all of the other original OS partitions into a virtual disk used for booting the original OS in a virtual machine. Any naysayers saying "can't do that" or "too hard" will get my usual refrain...
Carey
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When I last looked at this (Windows Vista?), the consumer Windows license would not allow virtualization. Maybe it has changed since. Windows has historically disallowed things that could enable copies of Windows to be viable. Silly example: you could not install Windows onto a USB device. Windows (used to?) discover illicit copies whenever a sufficient amount of hardware change had happened. All these might be artificial but intentional barriers to your project.
OK, if windows can't be virtualized....I guess for a distro to bring new users to linux, it would have to be a linux distro with an automatic install procedure to install linux virtual on windows. Does that require more than the "home" windows license? not sure, but I think any computer powerful enough to really do virtualization comes with that license. process: resize the windows partition, and install linux in its own paritition(s). with dual boot so it can be boot live. And with an OPTIONAL automatic procedure to LATER remove windows and reclaim that space for linux, whether just making the former windows partion a second data partition or actually reformatting and raiding them into one. possibly just make /home map to the users directory in the windows partition? you lose unix style ownership/permissions that way, but this is not for the sophisticated users, so maybe ok. Carey
On 09/17/2025 4:35 PM CDT D. Hugh Redelmeier via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
When I last looked at this (Windows Vista?), the consumer Windows license would not allow virtualization. Maybe it has changed since.
Windows has historically disallowed things that could enable copies of Windows to be viable. Silly example: you could not install Windows onto a USB device.
Windows (used to?) discover illicit copies whenever a sufficient amount of hardware change had happened.
All these might be artificial but intentional barriers to your project. ------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/RSA2BER...
From: CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org>
OK, if windows can't be virtualized....I guess for a distro to bring new users to linux, it would have to be a linux distro with an automatic install procedure to install linux virtual on windows. Does that require more than the "home" windows license? not sure, but I think any computer powerful enough to really do virtualization comes with that license.
WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) will run linux under Windows, but, AFAIK, only text console programs. WSL2 can run GUI programs too, but it is Win 11 only. There are probably a tonne of virtualization tools that run under Windows and can run Linux in a VM but I don't know anything about them.
On Wed, Sep 17, 2025 at 06:45:06PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via Talk wrote:
WSL (Windows Subsystem for Linux) will run linux under Windows, but, AFAIK, only text console programs.
WSL2 can run GUI programs too, but it is Win 11 only.
WSL2 came with Windows 10 version 2004. I think windows 11 has made it better. I used to use X410 as an X server with WSL1. But with WSL2 it is no longer needed, it just works somehow. -- Len Sorensen
Hi Carey I am likely misunderstanding your question and the use case, but is the goal to be able to run Linux apps within a Windows OS and exchange files between the two etc. so that one can compare the performance of the linux app and the equivalent windows app? Doesnt Win come with WSL where you can basically install any linux OS like Mint that is not in the MS Store? And from Mint then install any linux app like LibreOffice or MS Word via Wine? There are other options to run Win-centric apps in linux like Winboat. I think the WSL allows you to access Win/Linux files seamlessly. cheers Sam On Wed, Sep 17, 2025 at 6:27 PM CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
OK, if windows can't be virtualized....I guess for a distro to bring new users to linux, it would have to be a linux distro with an automatic install procedure to install linux virtual on windows. Does that require more than the "home" windows license? not sure, but I think any computer powerful enough to really do virtualization comes with that license.
process:
resize the windows partition, and install linux in its own paritition(s). with dual boot so it can be boot live.
And with an OPTIONAL automatic procedure to LATER remove windows and reclaim that space for linux, whether just making the former windows partion a second data partition or actually reformatting and raiding them into one. possibly just make /home map to the users directory in the windows partition? you lose unix style ownership/permissions that way, but this is not for the sophisticated users, so maybe ok.
Carey
On 09/17/2025 4:35 PM CDT D. Hugh Redelmeier via Talk < talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
When I last looked at this (Windows Vista?), the consumer Windows license would not allow virtualization. Maybe it has changed since.
Windows has historically disallowed things that could enable copies of Windows to be viable. Silly example: you could not install Windows onto a USB device.
Windows (used to?) discover illicit copies whenever a sufficient amount of hardware change had happened.
All these might be artificial but intentional barriers to your project. ------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/RSA2BER...
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NO We are computer-savvy, if not professionals. This was intended to be for people who can barely spell computer. that have done a few things only on the computer, and not understood what they were doing. people who feel, "Windows works", why should I change? If the person had a reason to be committed to change, say, MS announced that in two years, the license charge for Windows would be $75 per month, and they could not afford that, so they HAVE to convert off, sure, but, barring that, why change? For them, the ideal situation would be to give them a second computer, sitting next to their current one, with Linux on it. Anything they could do, they could try on Linux; if they have any problem, just continue on Windows until somebody helps them. Over time, hopefully, they would use the Linux computer more and more, and the Windows one less and less. eventually shutting off the windows and consigning it to be recycled. without ever having to do a "conversion". But that takes money and desktop space. It would be much easier if they could virtualize and have both systems active, and hotkey from one to the other. work on, say a greeting card program on Windows. have a problem, hotkey to Linux to send an email with a question, work on something else, get an answer, and hotkey back to work on the greeting card. Dual booting wastes too much time. This is for people who do not have a LOT of incentive to convert to Linux, if it is too much hassle, they will just stay on Windows. Carey
On 09/18/2025 4:41 PM CDT Samuel Kaharabata <skaharabata@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi Carey
I am likely misunderstanding your question and the use case, but is the goal to be able to run Linux apps within a Windows OS and exchange files between the two etc. so that one can compare the performance of the linux app and the equivalent windows app?
Doesnt Win come with WSL where you can basically install any linux OS like Mint that is not in the MS Store? And from Mint then install any linux app like LibreOffice or MS Word via Wine? There are other options to run Win-centric apps in linux like Winboat.
I think the WSL allows you to access Win/Linux files seamlessly.
cheers Sam
On Wed, Sep 17, 2025 at 6:27 PM CAREY SCHUG via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org mailto:talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
OK, if windows can't be virtualized....I guess for a distro to bring new users to linux, it would have to be a linux distro with an automatic install procedure to install linux virtual on windows. Does that require more than the "home" windows license? not sure, but I think any computer powerful enough to really do virtualization comes with that license.
process:
resize the windows partition, and install linux in its own paritition(s). with dual boot so it can be boot live.
And with an OPTIONAL automatic procedure to LATER remove windows and reclaim that space for linux, whether just making the former windows partion a second data partition or actually reformatting and raiding them into one. possibly just make /home map to the users directory in the windows partition? you lose unix style ownership/permissions that way, but this is not for the sophisticated users, so maybe ok.
Carey
On 09/17/2025 4:35 PM CDT D. Hugh Redelmeier via Talk <talk@lists.gtalug.org mailto:talk@lists.gtalug.org> wrote:
When I last looked at this (Windows Vista?), the consumer Windows license would not allow virtualization. Maybe it has changed since.
Windows has historically disallowed things that could enable copies of Windows to be viable. Silly example: you could not install Windows onto a USB device.
Windows (used to?) discover illicit copies whenever a sufficient amount of hardware change had happened.
All these might be artificial but intentional barriers to your project. ------------------------------------ Description: GTALUG Talk Unsubscribe via Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org mailto:Talk-unsubscribe@lists.gtalug.org Start a new thread: talk@lists.gtalug.org mailto:talk@lists.gtalug.org This message archived at https://lists.gtalug.org/archives/list/talk@lists.gtalug.org/message/RSA2BER...
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participants (9)
-
CAREY SCHUG -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
David Collier-Brown -
Kevin Cozens -
Lennart Sorensen -
Mauro Souza -
Samuel Kaharabata -
Steve Litt -
William Park