Boeing India software engineers
I must complement Boeing management for the huge sums that they save on salaries by shifting software engineering to India. Gleaned from the URL below I take it that the average Boeing software engineer in India makes 26,930 rupees/month, which is about $500 Canadian and that makes an annual salary of $6,000 per year. My hats off to management for achieving these enormous cost savings. Not to be left behind in an uncompetitive position, our Canadian companies, too, are making great strides in reigning in costs by shifting work offshore. https://www.indeed.co.in/cmp/Boeing/salaries /gary
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 3:37 PM Gary via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I must complement Boeing management for the huge sums that they save on salaries by shifting software engineering to India. Gleaned from the URL below I take it that the average Boeing software engineer in India makes 26,930 rupees/month, which is about $500 Canadian and that makes an annual salary of $6,000 per year. My hats off to management for achieving these enormous cost savings.
Not to be left behind in an uncompetitive position, our Canadian companies, too, are making great strides in reigning in costs by shifting work offshore.
A number of years ago I read that India is generating more engineers per year that the rest of the world combined. How good they are - - - - that's another question. Dee
India is an up and coming nation because the demographics are very favourable. India has more than *50*% of its population below the age of *25* and more than *65*% below the age of *35*. It is expected that, in 2020, the average age of an Indian will be *29 years*, compared to *37* for China and *48* for Japan; and, by 2030, India's dependency ratio should be just over 0.4. /gary On 19-03-12 06:45 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 3:37 PM Gary via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I must complement Boeing management for the huge sums that they save on salaries by shifting software engineering to India. Gleaned from the URL below I take it that the average Boeing software engineer in India makes 26,930 rupees/month, which is about $500 Canadian and that makes an annual salary of $6,000 per year. My hats off to management for achieving these enormous cost savings.
Not to be left behind in an uncompetitive position, our Canadian companies, too, are making great strides in reigning in costs by shifting work offshore.
A number of years ago I read that India is generating more engineers per year that the rest of the world combined. How good they are - - - - that's another question.
Dee --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 03/12/2019 06:45 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
A number of years ago I read that India is generating more engineers per year that the rest of the world combined. How good they are - - - - that's another question.
Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help desks etc. to India. Many have come to regret that decision, due to the poor quality "help". In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost ahead of value and we get garbage as a result. One very important question a lot are missing is who is going to pay for products, services, etc., when more and more of the jobs are moving overseas. At one time, it was just cheap manufactured goods. Now it's IT, legal and medical services and more. When does it end?
On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 21:25:22 -0400 James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help desks etc. to India. Many have come to regret that decision, due to the poor quality "help". In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost ahead of value and we get garbage as a result.
James, Is Microsoft paying the Microsoft help-desk peole who call me to fix my Microsoft networking problems? [Ctrl][r] does not seem to work! -- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca jhowardgibson@gmail.com http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
On 03/12/2019 10:51 PM, Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
Is Microsoft paying the Microsoft help-desk peole who call me to fix my Microsoft networking problems? [Ctrl][r] does not seem to work!
I think they're just scammers and certainly sound like they're in India or Pakistan. Bell's help desk is or was in India and I had the misfortune of having to call them on occasion with my work. On one job I was installing an Adtran router, but the ADSL line wasn't ready. When I called the help line, they insisted I click on the Start button. Last time I checked, routers didn't have one. I then asked to escalate and they hung up on me. The customer called her Bell sales rep and he put me in touch with someone in Canada who could help. That's when I learned to call the French number, as they're in Canada and most of them speak English too.
There's an excellent Reply All episode about exactly this -- where a journalist dives deep into figuring out how one of these scams work and who is behind it. https://www.gimletmedia.com/reply-all/long-distance On 2019-03-12 10:51 p.m., Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
On Tue, 12 Mar 2019 21:25:22 -0400 James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help desks etc. to India. Many have come to regret that decision, due to the poor quality "help". In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost ahead of value and we get garbage as a result. James,
Is Microsoft paying the Microsoft help-desk peole who call me to fix my Microsoft networking problems? [Ctrl][r] does not seem to work!
I believe the short answer is that if you live in North America, you should avoid wasting money on a costly academic education, even if you're very gifted, and, instead, focus on vocational training that can never be outsourced, such as postal work, fire fighter, ambulance paramedic and medical laboratory services. In that way there is a clean bifurcation in the nature of work that is carried out between here and India. In this wonderful age, you don't have to spend a penny indulging your interest in computer science, technology, physics and mathematics as you have internet resources for that purpose. For example, I'm a retired postal clerk but I entertain myself by downloading lectures on these topics. I've taught myself c++ and I have lots of fun developing applications in Linux. I have a passion for A.I and mathematics but I know that, if you live in this country then these studies can never be more than an indulgence, unless you have really good connections; but then, in that case, you can just get a degree in medieval history before taking the helm as CEO at some company, which is what Carly Fiorinas did with HP. https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2014/09/30/carly-fiori... /gary On 19-03-12 09:25 PM, James Knott via talk wrote:
A number of years ago I read that India is generating more engineers per year that the rest of the world combined. How good they are - - - - that's another question. Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help desks etc. to India. Many have come to regret that decision, due to the
On 03/12/2019 06:45 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote: poor quality "help". In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost ahead of value and we get garbage as a result.
One very important question a lot are missing is who is going to pay for products, services, etc., when more and more of the jobs are moving overseas. At one time, it was just cheap manufactured goods. Now it's IT, legal and medical services and more. When does it end?
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 3:10 PM Gary via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I believe the short answer is that if you live in North America, you should avoid wasting money on a costly academic education, even if you're very gifted, and, instead, focus on vocational training that can never be outsourced, such as postal work, fire fighter, ambulance paramedic and medical laboratory services. In that way there is a clean bifurcation in the nature of work that is carried out between here and India.
In this wonderful age, you don't have to spend a penny indulging your interest in computer science, technology, physics and mathematics as you have internet resources for that purpose. For example, I'm a retired postal clerk but I entertain myself by downloading lectures on these topics. I've taught myself c++ and I have lots of fun developing applications in Linux. I have a passion for A.I and mathematics but I know that, if you live in this country then these studies can never be more than an indulgence, unless you have really good connections; but then, in that case, you can just get a degree in medieval history before taking the helm as CEO at some company, which is what Carly Fiorinas did with HP.
https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2014/09/30/carly-fiori...
/gary
I am not even going to begin by saying how wrong and how racist this entire topic is. I have worked with enough poor indian developers. I have also worked with enough poor highly paid canadian, american and european developers. They exist everywhere regardless of nationality. I also worked with enough indian developers whose work would be classified as poor while in India which magically turned to pretty good when they started working in the US. I have also heard interesting things being said by developers here about people in India which spoke to how blind they were about situations outside of Canada/US/Europe. (Part of it being, oh, open source is not about passion to people in India, it is just a job. Well, it is, you know, because they need food on their plates). I am horrified that we are sitting here and talking about this. If you are in the industry, then you are very much aware that is mostly the grunt work that gets outsourced. If your job is getting outsourced, then more likely than not, you are not that high up the value chain. Sorry to break the news to you. Is it a nice thing? No, absolutely not. I would not wish it on anybody. But the reality is, it is basic economics. If it can be done for cheaper, and it is not essential, "quality" (whatever that means), doesn't matter. Don't begrudge whoever won that. Increase your own value. If you are doing something essential, your job is not going to go away any time soon. Let's not be racist and pick on someone other nationality. Dhaval
I think you've misconstrued the intent of our discussion. The issue is worldwide labour arbitrage where production moves to the lowest cost region. This is a reality that must be fully appreciated by those contemplating a career in North America. As you allude to in your rebuttal, it is a basic economic argument that is apparently lost on the massive hordes pursuing degrees in computer science in this country. No one here is trying to cast aspersions on the quality of Indian workers; rather, we see India as an up and coming force in the world by virtue of their favourable demographics. However, I don't believe that this view has been fully understood in this country. /gary On 19-03-13 10:39 AM, Dhaval Giani wrote:
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 3:10 PM Gary via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I believe the short answer is that if you live in North America, you should avoid wasting money on a costly academic education, even if you're very gifted, and, instead, focus on vocational training that can never be outsourced, such as postal work, fire fighter, ambulance paramedic and medical laboratory services. In that way there is a clean bifurcation in the nature of work that is carried out between here and India.
In this wonderful age, you don't have to spend a penny indulging your interest in computer science, technology, physics and mathematics as you have internet resources for that purpose. For example, I'm a retired postal clerk but I entertain myself by downloading lectures on these topics. I've taught myself c++ and I have lots of fun developing applications in Linux. I have a passion for A.I and mathematics but I know that, if you live in this country then these studies can never be more than an indulgence, unless you have really good connections; but then, in that case, you can just get a degree in medieval history before taking the helm as CEO at some company, which is what Carly Fiorinas did with HP.
https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2014/09/30/carly-fiori...
/gary I am not even going to begin by saying how wrong and how racist this entire topic is.
I have worked with enough poor indian developers. I have also worked with enough poor highly paid canadian, american and european developers. They exist everywhere regardless of nationality.
I also worked with enough indian developers whose work would be classified as poor while in India which magically turned to pretty good when they started working in the US. I have also heard interesting things being said by developers here about people in India which spoke to how blind they were about situations outside of Canada/US/Europe. (Part of it being, oh, open source is not about passion to people in India, it is just a job. Well, it is, you know, because they need food on their plates).
I am horrified that we are sitting here and talking about this.
If you are in the industry, then you are very much aware that is mostly the grunt work that gets outsourced. If your job is getting outsourced, then more likely than not, you are not that high up the value chain. Sorry to break the news to you. Is it a nice thing? No, absolutely not. I would not wish it on anybody. But the reality is, it is basic economics. If it can be done for cheaper, and it is not essential, "quality" (whatever that means), doesn't matter. Don't begrudge whoever won that. Increase your own value. If you are doing something essential, your job is not going to go away any time soon. Let's not be racist and pick on someone other nationality.
Dhaval
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 3:51 PM Gary <technologynut@rogers.com> wrote:
I think you've misconstrued the intent of our discussion.
o1bigtenor wrote "
A number of years ago I read that India is generating more engineers per year that the rest of the world combined. How good they are - - - - that's another question. "
James Knott wrote "
Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help desks etc. to India. Many have come to regret that decision, due to the poor quality "help". In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost ahead of value and we get garbage as a result. "
mwilson wrote "
A friend of mine had a job from hell for a while as Canada-side overseer of an India-based programming effort. The job entailed being up all night to oversee, then being up all day explaining to management what was happening in India. He's a smart, talented guy, but really, how good is *anybody* going to be working like that? "
I am unsure how I have misconstrued the intention up there.
The issue is worldwide labour arbitrage where production moves to the lowest cost region. This is a reality that must be fully appreciated by those contemplating a career in North America. As you allude to in your rebuttal, it is a basic economic argument that is apparently lost on the massive hordes pursuing degrees in computer science in this country.
And you have completely missed another important bit. None of the important work is leaving the US (and as an extension North America). If your job is leaving North America, that means you are not providing enough value. These jobs pay the same either here, or there, in absolute $ values, which is why they stay here. What goes away is stuff that doesn't need much.
No one here is trying to cast aspersions on the quality of Indian workers; rather, we see India as an up and coming force in the world by virtue of their favourable demographics. However, I don't believe that this view has been fully understood in this country.
Maybe you are saying that. That is not however what this thread is saying. Dhaval
On 03/13/2019 10:59 AM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
James Knott wrote
"
Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help desks etc. to India. Many have come to regret that decision, due to the poor quality "help". In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost ahead of value and we get garbage as a result. "
My comments are about how we were promised that if we moved into areas such as IT, we'd be set for life. The low cost work, such as manufacturing cheap goods would be done offshore. Well, it appears more and more of the good stuff is also moving offshore. A while ago, I was reading how recent law grads were having trouble finding positions, because the work they would have done is now being done in India. I also read about how medical lab tests are now also done elsewhere. It's getting to the point where the only jobs that aren't leaving are the ones that can't be moved. What happens to everyone else? Incidentally, the trend to move stuff offshore started with U.S. General Douglas MacArther. When he was military governor of Japan, after WW2, he realized that he needed to provide work, to prevent rebellion, communism, etc.. To do this he promoted Japan as a source of cheap labour to manufacture stuff for the U.S. and the rest of the world. One thing that has continued since then is a lot of the stuff from Asia, or other low wage areas, is shoddy products. Just take a look at the clothes sold in Walmart. At one time, they boasted that when you bought from Walmart, you bought from your neighbours, as most of what they sold was made in the U.S.. Now??? We're currently in the situation where the drive to cut costs is greatly harming the economy, with more and more unable to properly support themselves.
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 4:12 PM James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 03/13/2019 10:59 AM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
James Knott wrote
"
Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help desks etc. to India. Many have come to regret that decision, due to the poor quality "help". In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost ahead of value and we get garbage as a result. "
My comments are about how we were promised that if we moved into areas such as IT, we'd be set for life.
I fail to see how I can reach the conclusion you want me to by reading your comment.
The low cost work, such as manufacturing cheap goods would be done offshore. Well, it appears more and more of the good stuff is also moving offshore.
What is this "good stuff" that is moving offshore? From what I can see, stuff that is higher up the value chain is still in North America, and is still going to remain here. And for a very simple economic reason. It costs the same $ value.
On 2019-03-13 11:22 a.m., Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
What is this "good stuff" that is moving offshore? From what I can see, stuff that is higher up the value chain is still in North America, and is still going to remain here. And for a very simple economic reason. It costs the same $ value. ---
I see the same, and in some cases (Emerson Electric, for example) the work that was once outsourced to underpaid people elsewhere is being brought back into the US and automated. I used to have an eight-person team in India, and they were perfectly good. A husband-and-wife team eventually moved to Canada and have been successful here, with the wife being hired by my company and rising to take over her department. --dave -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.
On 03/13/2019 11:22 AM, Dhaval Giani wrote:
What is this "good stuff" that is moving offshore? From what I can see, stuff that is higher up the value chain is still in North America, and is still going to remain here. And for a very simple economic reason. It costs the same $ value.
Well, I mentioned 3, IT, lab tests and law. There are others. For many years, we were promised get an education and you'll always have a job. It appears that no longer holds true as many areas, such as those I mentioned, are moving offshore. What is someone starting out today supposed to do? What will be the next area moved offshore? Even some trades, such as aircraft maintenance are going. We're heading into a situation where more and more people will be unable to support themselves. Take a look at the news to find out about things like wage & wealth inequality, people unable to afford a decent place to live or even put food on the table. And then look at where the money is going. Look at the super wealthy. I mentioned Walmart. In the U.S. they pay many of their employees so poorly that they need social assistance just to live. One figure I recall was that each Walmart employee in Wisconsin costs the taxpayers some $4K per year. Let's not forget that this is one of the wealthiest families in the U.S. being subsidized by the taxpayers. One example of many. When people talk of cutting costs, they all too often forget about the cost of cutting costs. Guess who it is that all too often is forced to pay for these "savings".
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 4:49 PM James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 03/13/2019 11:22 AM, Dhaval Giani wrote:
What is this "good stuff" that is moving offshore? From what I can see, stuff that is higher up the value chain is still in North America, and is still going to remain here. And for a very simple economic reason. It costs the same $ value.
Well, I mentioned 3, IT, lab tests and law. There are others.
For many years, we were promised get an education and you'll always have a job. It appears that no longer holds true as many areas, such as those I mentioned, are moving offshore. What is someone starting out today supposed to do? What will be the next area moved offshore? Even some trades, such as aircraft maintenance are going. We're heading into a situation where more and more people will be unable to support themselves. Take a look at the news to find out about things like wage & wealth inequality, people unable to afford a decent place to live or even put food on the table. And then look at where the money is going. Look at the super wealthy. I mentioned Walmart. In the U.S. they pay many of their employees so poorly that they need social assistance just to live. One figure I recall was that each Walmart employee in Wisconsin costs the taxpayers some $4K per year. Let's not forget that this is one of the wealthiest families in the U.S. being subsidized by the taxpayers. One example of many.
When people talk of cutting costs, they all too often forget about the cost of cutting costs. Guess who it is that all too often is forced to pay for these "savings".
Well sure, and the US is a more complex case than just cost cutting. Offshoring is just one part of it. The other problem is how the immigration system works. In the name of protecting US jobs, you tie work permits to just one company, and artificially lower salaries. With free movement of labour, you are forced to pay market salaries. Why should a company pay for an expensive visa, if the person will just move to the next high paying job, when they can hire locally? Another problem is that people are not willing to pay the actual cost of the goods. If you are to pay the actual cost of labour, the prices are quite a bit higher. An example is a restaurant meal. That labour cost is subsidized by tipping. Either we be ready to pay the actual cost, or we will continue seeing these shenanigans. (Still does not excuse the insane profit margins, but the reality is that as soon as these companies become more humane, the shareholders will drop these companies and the value will drop and our pensions will also drop) Dhaval
On 03/13/2019 11:55 AM, Dhaval Giani wrote:
Another problem is that people are not willing to pay the actual cost of the goods. If you are to pay the actual cost of labour, the prices are quite a bit higher. An example is a restaurant meal. That labour cost is subsidized by tipping. Either we be ready to pay the actual cost, or we will continue seeing these shenanigans.
(Still does not excuse the insane profit margins, but the reality is that as soon as these companies become more humane, the shareholders will drop these companies and the value will drop and our pensions will also drop)
That is a big part of the problem, putting money ahead of everything else. Another part of the problem is the nonsense that started with President Reagan, that cutting taxes for the wealthy & corporations means more for everyone. It just doesn't work that way. Never has, never will.
I don't think that one can statistically make the case that one nation or region of the world has better or less competent workers than any other for the simple reason that "in country" variation is far greater than the "between country variation". I think the more salient point is that there ARE very smart people in any region of the world and many of them want your job!! /gary On 19-03-13 11:12 AM, James Knott via talk wrote:
On 03/13/2019 10:59 AM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
James Knott wrote
"
Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help desks etc. to India. Many have come to regret that decision, due to the poor quality "help". In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost ahead of value and we get garbage as a result. " My comments are about how we were promised that if we moved into areas such as IT, we'd be set for life. The low cost work, such as manufacturing cheap goods would be done offshore. Well, it appears more and more of the good stuff is also moving offshore. A while ago, I was reading how recent law grads were having trouble finding positions, because the work they would have done is now being done in India. I also read about how medical lab tests are now also done elsewhere. It's getting to the point where the only jobs that aren't leaving are the ones that can't be moved. What happens to everyone else?
Incidentally, the trend to move stuff offshore started with U.S. General Douglas MacArther. When he was military governor of Japan, after WW2, he realized that he needed to provide work, to prevent rebellion, communism, etc.. To do this he promoted Japan as a source of cheap labour to manufacture stuff for the U.S. and the rest of the world. One thing that has continued since then is a lot of the stuff from Asia, or other low wage areas, is shoddy products. Just take a look at the clothes sold in Walmart. At one time, they boasted that when you bought from Walmart, you bought from your neighbours, as most of what they sold was made in the U.S.. Now???
We're currently in the situation where the drive to cut costs is greatly harming the economy, with more and more unable to properly support themselves.
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
I'm also going to chime in and say this point is pretty ignorant implying that the only vocational work is worthwhile. You say you have some understanding of science, programming, linux and AI, but have you done anything that's been used by other people? Have your received any feedback on your work? If not then whatever you've done is just entertainment, this is an indulgence from your point of view, and I don't believe you have authority to say this is not useful; It's the same as if I were saying that no one needs vocational training because there's a bunch of videos on youtube on how to fix everything anyway and you can do everything by yourself; I'm a pretty good plumber, I've fixed a faucet once. Alex. On 2019-03-13 10:10 a.m., Gary via talk wrote:
I believe the short answer is that if you live in North America, you should avoid wasting money on a costly academic education, even if you're very gifted, and, instead, focus on vocational training that can never be outsourced, such as postal work, fire fighter, ambulance paramedic and medical laboratory services. In that way there is a clean bifurcation in the nature of work that is carried out between here and India.
In this wonderful age, you don't have to spend a penny indulging your interest in computer science, technology, physics and mathematics as you have internet resources for that purpose. For example, I'm a retired postal clerk but I entertain myself by downloading lectures on these topics. I've taught myself c++ and I have lots of fun developing applications in Linux. I have a passion for A.I and mathematics but I know that, if you live in this country then these studies can never be more than an indulgence, unless you have really good connections; but then, in that case, you can just get a degree in medieval history before taking the helm as CEO at some company, which is what Carly Fiorinas did with HP.
https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2014/09/30/carly-fiori...
/gary
On 19-03-12 09:25 PM, James Knott via talk wrote:
A number of years ago I read that India is generating more engineers per year that the rest of the world combined. How good they are - - - - that's another question. Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help desks etc. to India. Many have come to regret that decision, due to the
On 03/12/2019 06:45 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote: poor quality "help". In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost ahead of value and we get garbage as a result.
One very important question a lot are missing is who is going to pay for products, services, etc., when more and more of the jobs are moving overseas. At one time, it was just cheap manufactured goods. Now it's IT, legal and medical services and more. When does it end?
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Well, as I had indicated in an earlier email, it is a fact that from a U.S. census 74% of those with STEM degrees do not work in STEM. This is my authority. However, even IEEE says that the "tech shortage" is just a myth: https://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/05/13/how_the_myth_of_a_cana... https://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-myth-of-the-tech-talent-shortage-wh... /gary On 19-03-13 10:57 AM, Alex Volkov wrote:
I'm also going to chime in and say this point is pretty ignorant implying that the only vocational work is worthwhile.
You say you have some understanding of science, programming, linux and AI, but have you done anything that's been used by other people? Have your received any feedback on your work? If not then whatever you've done is just entertainment, this is an indulgence from your point of view, and I don't believe you have authority to say this is not useful;
It's the same as if I were saying that no one needs vocational training because there's a bunch of videos on youtube on how to fix everything anyway and you can do everything by yourself; I'm a pretty good plumber, I've fixed a faucet once.
Alex.
On 2019-03-13 10:10 a.m., Gary via talk wrote:
I believe the short answer is that if you live in North America, you should avoid wasting money on a costly academic education, even if you're very gifted, and, instead, focus on vocational training that can never be outsourced, such as postal work, fire fighter, ambulance paramedic and medical laboratory services. In that way there is a clean bifurcation in the nature of work that is carried out between here and India.
In this wonderful age, you don't have to spend a penny indulging your interest in computer science, technology, physics and mathematics as you have internet resources for that purpose. For example, I'm a retired postal clerk but I entertain myself by downloading lectures on these topics. I've taught myself c++ and I have lots of fun developing applications in Linux. I have a passion for A.I and mathematics but I know that, if you live in this country then these studies can never be more than an indulgence, unless you have really good connections; but then, in that case, you can just get a degree in medieval history before taking the helm as CEO at some company, which is what Carly Fiorinas did with HP.
https://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/washington-whispers/2014/09/30/carly-fiori...
/gary
On 19-03-12 09:25 PM, James Knott via talk wrote:
A number of years ago I read that India is generating more engineers per year that the rest of the world combined. How good they are - - - - that's another question. Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help desks etc. to India. Many have come to regret that decision, due to
On 03/12/2019 06:45 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote: the poor quality "help". In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost ahead of value and we get garbage as a result.
One very important question a lot are missing is who is going to pay for products, services, etc., when more and more of the jobs are moving overseas. At one time, it was just cheap manufactured goods. Now it's IT, legal and medical services and more. When does it end?
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 4:21 PM Gary via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Well, as I had indicated in an earlier email, it is a fact that from a U.S. census 74% of those with STEM degrees do not work in STEM. This is my authority.
However, even IEEE says that the "tech shortage" is just a myth: https://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/05/13/how_the_myth_of_a_cana...
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-myth-of-the-tech-talent-shortage-wh...
Gary, I think you misunderstand what Alex says. How is it different saying "only vocational training is worthwhile because spending money getting an academic degree is useless" from "you don't need vocational training, you can learn plumbing from youtube?". That is the ignorance he is calling out. I can attest to that. These are some very specialised fields. I have worked with some very smart people, who have reinvented 50 year old research because they don't have the academic CS background, and refuse to learn from those mistakes. This is why you see software becoming slower again :-). Dhaval
No, I think YOU have misunderstood. When I download lectures I do so for the sole purpose of entertainment and nothing more; I'm a senior citizen. My thinking was that those individuals who enjoy science and engineering can still indulge that interest and yet support themselves with jobs that are unlikely to be outsourced. The alternative case of spending a lot of money on a science or engineering degree to learn science, which is their passion, just does not make sense because the hope of establishing a career in the field before it gets outsourced is unfounded in view of the fact that places like India have very talented people who can do the job, do it better and work cheap! /gary On 19-03-13 11:28 AM, Dhaval Giani wrote:
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 4:21 PM Gary via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Well, as I had indicated in an earlier email, it is a fact that from a U.S. census 74% of those with STEM degrees do not work in STEM. This is my authority.
However, even IEEE says that the "tech shortage" is just a myth: https://spectrum.ieee.org/at-work/education/the-stem-crisis-is-a-myth
https://www.thestar.com/opinion/commentary/2014/05/13/how_the_myth_of_a_cana...
https://www.techrepublic.com/article/the-myth-of-the-tech-talent-shortage-wh...
Gary,
I think you misunderstand what Alex says. How is it different saying "only vocational training is worthwhile because spending money getting an academic degree is useless" from "you don't need vocational training, you can learn plumbing from youtube?". That is the ignorance he is calling out.
I can attest to that. These are some very specialised fields. I have worked with some very smart people, who have reinvented 50 year old research because they don't have the academic CS background, and refuse to learn from those mistakes. This is why you see software becoming slower again :-).
Dhaval
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 4:46 PM Gary <technologynut@rogers.com> wrote:
No, I think YOU have misunderstood. When I download lectures I do so for the sole purpose of entertainment and nothing more; I'm a senior citizen. My thinking was that those individuals who enjoy science and engineering can still indulge that interest and yet support themselves with jobs that are unlikely to be outsourced. The alternative case of spending a lot of money on a science or engineering degree to learn science, which is their passion, just does not make sense because the hope of establishing a career in the field before it gets outsourced is unfounded in view of the fact that places like India have very talented people who can do the job, do it better and work cheap!
I don't understand why you keep ignoring what I keep saying. 1. There are talented people everywhere 2. There are people who do things equally well and equally badly everywhere 3. For high quality work, no one works cheap. So, if you are higher up the value chain, you are not going to lose your job anytime soon. Dhaval
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 4:53 PM James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 03/13/2019 11:49 AM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
So, if you are higher up the value chain, you are not going to lose your job anytime soon.
Out of the population, how many will be higher up the value chain? What do the rest do?
And whose responsibility is that? The market will support what it will. I pay my share of taxes to ensure that those who can't support themselves are not left behind. Dhaval
On 03/13/2019 11:59 AM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
And whose responsibility is that? The market will support what it will. I pay my share of taxes to ensure that those who can't support themselves are not left behind.
And then we have people like Doug Ford, who cut taxes for the wealthy, while cutting support for those who need it. I don't like paying taxes any more than anyone else, but I'm not so stupid or self centred as to think we can just cut taxes without serious consequences.
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 5:01 PM James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 03/13/2019 11:59 AM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
And whose responsibility is that? The market will support what it will. I pay my share of taxes to ensure that those who can't support themselves are not left behind.
And then we have people like Doug Ford, who cut taxes for the wealthy, while cutting support for those who need it.
well, that's a whole new can of worms, and I am not getting there :-). Hopefully there is still an Ontario at the end of it :-)/ Dhaval
On 3/13/19 11:53 AM, James Knott via talk wrote:
On 03/13/2019 11:49 AM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
So, if you are higher up the value chain, you are not going to lose your job anytime soon. Out of the population, how many will be higher up the value chain? What do the rest do?
In short. They/You are screwed. Its the result of work and business ethic that is from some time before 1900. Trying to turn back the clock has never really worked for anybody because there is someone out there who will keep their clock ticking and get up early to eat your breakfast. -- Alvin Starr || land: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
Dhaval, your dim view of the Indian value chain is unfounded because India is now ranked 3rd in A.I. research. Indeed, if you're higher up in the value chain in North America then you certainly do run the risk of losing your job because, for example, A.I. research has to be pretty high up in the value chain I would suspect!! https://www.analyticsindiamag.com/ai-ml-research-breakthroughs-india/ /gary On 19-03-13 11:49 AM, Dhaval Giani wrote:
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 4:46 PM Gary <technologynut@rogers.com> wrote:
No, I think YOU have misunderstood. When I download lectures I do so for the sole purpose of entertainment and nothing more; I'm a senior citizen. My thinking was that those individuals who enjoy science and engineering can still indulge that interest and yet support themselves with jobs that are unlikely to be outsourced. The alternative case of spending a lot of money on a science or engineering degree to learn science, which is their passion, just does not make sense because the hope of establishing a career in the field before it gets outsourced is unfounded in view of the fact that places like India have very talented people who can do the job, do it better and work cheap! I don't understand why you keep ignoring what I keep saying.
1. There are talented people everywhere 2. There are people who do things equally well and equally badly everywhere 3. For high quality work, no one works cheap.
So, if you are higher up the value chain, you are not going to lose your job anytime soon.
Dhaval
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 5:05 PM Gary <technologynut@rogers.com> wrote:
Dhaval, your dim view of the Indian value chain is unfounded because India is now ranked 3rd in A.I. research. Indeed, if you're higher up in the value chain in North America then you certainly do run the risk of losing your job because, for example, A.I. research has to be pretty high up in the value chain I would suspect!!
https://www.analyticsindiamag.com/ai-ml-research-breakthroughs-india/
Gary, I am getting close to assuming malicious intent in your statements right now. I have at no point in time put forth a dim view in the indian value chain. Instead you have lowered the value of indian chain by saying they will do it for cheap. I have constantly been advocating for friends back in India to charge the same prices that people here charge for the same skills. Why not? It is the same job. Please go and reread what I said. Once you go up the value chain, you are able to command the same dollar value, and that's when the risk of you losing your job reduces. Dhaval
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019, 12:09 PM Dhaval Giani via talk, <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 5:05 PM Gary <technologynut@rogers.com> wrote:
Dhaval, your dim view of the Indian value chain is unfounded because India is now ranked 3rd in A.I. research. Indeed, if you're higher up in the value chain in North America then you certainly do run the risk of losing your job because, for example, A.I. research has to be pretty high up in the value chain I would suspect!!
https://www.analyticsindiamag.com/ai-ml-research-breakthroughs-india/
Gary,
I am getting close to assuming malicious intent in your statements right now. I have at no point in time put forth a dim view in the indian value chain. Instead you have lowered the value of indian chain by saying they will do it for cheap. I have constantly been advocating for friends back in India to charge the same prices that people here charge for the same skills. Why not? It is the same job. Please go and reread what I said. Once you go up the value chain, you are able to command the same dollar value, and that's when the risk of you losing your job reduces.
There is no job that an employee is not at risk of losing. The so called value chain is just marketing hyperbole, just ask any placement/recruitment specialist. Ask them which side of the cycle they are currently pushing, glut of jobs or employee's. Its always one or tbe other. It is the imbalance of trade which generates employment; Supply side vs. demand side and recruitment agents square in the middle promoting whatever makes them the most money. Ethics and morals; jobs and people; nothing more than commodities to be traded in the international marketplace. Its kind of like human trafficking, except you don't actually have to move anything around physically.
Dhaval --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
This whole thread is redundant. AIs (or more accurately Machine-Learning systems) are already eating into many aspects of Law, Tech support, etc. They will only expand… and will take over many of the low-value jobs domestic, or outsourced. And, of course, come the Singularity, nothing is safe. ../Dave
While the discussion centers around Indian workers, please do not forget China. China has 1.4B people and they need work as well. The Chinese government is willing to subsidize factories that export products. These export products are therefore much cheaper than comparable North American made ones. Thus US and Canuck factories bite the dust. Hence Walmart stocks a significant amount of Chinese goods. The race to the bottom, when there is a country/state actor involved means people here in Western countries lose companies and jobs. The issue is much more complex than just saying it is ok for Canadian companies to find the cheapest workers, for Canadian consumers to buy the cheapest products. What will happen to Canadian or Western society when a vast majority of jobs have gone to China? If you want a harmonious society, jobs are needed for all types of people. If you export a portion of these jobs to the lowest bidder in another country, what happens to those people? As a society we have no answer as yet, other than "You should find a job higher up the value chain". Such comments seem so very elitist, and lacking in compassion for fellow Canadians.
Harper in his "right here, right now" book - that just came out recently, explained all of this, and also, even basically saying Trump probably will not see out his term , and he is unstable, explained his election win, all coming round to "trade deals", to which Harper claims in his tenure he generated more then any other head of state in time frame. He talks about anywheres and somewheres - many people in decision making roles (especially 1%'rs) are anywheres in their lives, global and not very tied to community (of origin) anymore. Somewheres, the opposite. This explains some of the free market slant, but the real issue is a "trade deal", good or bad? Which is why, with all faults, many! Trump pulled off a win. When a state makes a trade deal, it has to be good in a broad sense! Harper gave an example of the dairy issue in Quebec (sms) that is a sore point because its very protectionist, and odd in view of "free trade". But, to stop that dairy SMS would be catastrophic for many small communities, so against , (also discussed) very stupid dogma : free trade is good period, the deal is not done. Its not dogmatic , you need a GOOD DEAL! A state has to make smart trade deals, and Harper passed on China trade deals (new) because it was insane, the IP theft is MASSIVE, this is not up for debate. Many other things are massively lopsided. Unfortunately the Clinton trade deal damage has been done, and not something to quickly fix. Harper appears to have done much better trade deals, but it would appear the job outsourcing has to become a bigger variable in doing the deals. When you don't want to "protect" (rather, really open up), you need to ease (in the trade agreement, i.e. period by period easement), and to retrain, and as a state, get your shit together. Having said all this, I am not knowledgeable in the trade deals (if any) we have with India, and what should be done. If Canada has a net + to trade with India (good and services), then seems feds have to fund into the job lose incurred to correct, or, NOT MAKE THE DEAL. Another oddity, if true, that is coming down the pipe in Canada, is the , according to JBP, Jordan B Peterson, the transition to 80+% female makeup in post secondary in 15 years, and in time leaving only males somewhat majority in STEM, and 0% in other, if true, this is a incredible social change that is likely to have insane consequences. The new SJW, IdentPolitics, (snow flake gen - maybe a derog. term now, wasn't few years ago, not sure a better PC term), is going to create a new society soon, that outsourcing of jobs is going to be infinitely low on the priority scale, of Canada's issues! I hope JBP is wrong, but its been a hell of a bomb drop, and some stats do perhaps support it. Disruption to employment with offshore is BIG! disruptions with this potential shift in education gender make up, is mind boggling! -tl On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 2:08 PM Don Tai via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
While the discussion centers around Indian workers, please do not forget China. China has 1.4B people and they need work as well. The Chinese government is willing to subsidize factories that export products. These export products are therefore much cheaper than comparable North American made ones. Thus US and Canuck factories bite the dust. Hence Walmart stocks a significant amount of Chinese goods.
The race to the bottom, when there is a country/state actor involved means people here in Western countries lose companies and jobs. The issue is much more complex than just saying it is ok for Canadian companies to find the cheapest workers, for Canadian consumers to buy the cheapest products. What will happen to Canadian or Western society when a vast majority of jobs have gone to China? If you want a harmonious society, jobs are needed for all types of people. If you export a portion of these jobs to the lowest bidder in another country, what happens to those people? As a society we have no answer as yet, other than "You should find a job higher up the value chain". Such comments seem so very elitist, and lacking in compassion for fellow Canadians. --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Okay Ted, This violates several rules of our code of conduct including discrimination based on gender and gender identity and you are banned from this list. I also removed Gary from the list because of repeatedly ignoring my warnings that the discussion about Boeing outsourcing is over. Alex. On 2019-03-13 2:58 p.m., ted leslie via talk wrote:
Harper in his "right here, right now" book - that just came out recently, explained all of this, and also, even basically saying Trump probably will not see out his term , and he is unstable, explained his election win, all coming round to "trade deals", to which Harper claims in his tenure he generated more then any other head of state in time frame. He talks about anywheres and somewheres - many people in decision making roles (especially 1%'rs) are anywheres in their lives, global and not very tied to community (of origin) anymore. Somewheres, the opposite. This explains some of the free market slant, but the real issue is a "trade deal", good or bad? Which is why, with all faults, many! Trump pulled off a win. When a state makes a trade deal, it has to be good in a broad sense! Harper gave an example of the dairy issue in Quebec (sms) that is a sore point because its very protectionist, and odd in view of "free trade". But, to stop that dairy SMS would be catastrophic for many small communities, so against , (also discussed) very stupid dogma : free trade is good period, the deal is not done. Its not dogmatic , you need a GOOD DEAL! A state has to make smart trade deals, and Harper passed on China trade deals (new) because it was insane, the IP theft is MASSIVE, this is not up for debate. Many other things are massively lopsided. Unfortunately the Clinton trade deal damage has been done, and not something to quickly fix. Harper appears to have done much better trade deals, but it would appear the job outsourcing has to become a bigger variable in doing the deals. When you don't want to "protect" (rather, really open up), you need to ease (in the trade agreement, i.e. period by period easement), and to retrain, and as a state, get your shit together. Having said all this, I am not knowledgeable in the trade deals (if any) we have with India, and what should be done. If Canada has a net + to trade with India (good and services), then seems feds have to fund into the job lose incurred to correct, or, NOT MAKE THE DEAL.
Another oddity, if true, that is coming down the pipe in Canada, is the , according to JBP, Jordan B Peterson, the transition to 80+% female makeup in post secondary in 15 years, and in time leaving only males somewhat majority in STEM, and 0% in other, if true, this is a incredible social change that is likely to have insane consequences. The new SJW, IdentPolitics, (snow flake gen - maybe a derog. term now, wasn't few years ago, not sure a better PC term), is going to create a new society soon, that outsourcing of jobs is going to be infinitely low on the priority scale, of Canada's issues! I hope JBP is wrong, but its been a hell of a bomb drop, and some stats do perhaps support it. Disruption to employment with offshore is BIG! disruptions with this potential shift in education gender make up, is mind boggling!
-tl
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 2:08 PM Don Tai via talk <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:
While the discussion centers around Indian workers, please do not forget China. China has 1.4B people and they need work as well. The Chinese government is willing to subsidize factories that export products. These export products are therefore much cheaper than comparable North American made ones. Thus US and Canuck factories bite the dust. Hence Walmart stocks a significant amount of Chinese goods.
The race to the bottom, when there is a country/state actor involved means people here in Western countries lose companies and jobs. The issue is much more complex than just saying it is ok for Canadian companies to find the cheapest workers, for Canadian consumers to buy the cheapest products. What will happen to Canadian or Western society when a vast majority of jobs have gone to China? If you want a harmonious society, jobs are needed for all types of people. If you export a portion of these jobs to the lowest bidder in another country, what happens to those people? As a society we have no answer as yet, other than "You should find a job higher up the value chain". Such comments seem so very elitist, and lacking in compassion for fellow Canadians. --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 2:13 PM Alex Volkov via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Okay Ted,
This violates several rules of our code of conduct including discrimination based on gender and gender identity and you are banned from this list.
I also removed Gary from the list because of repeatedly ignoring my warnings that the discussion about Boeing outsourcing is over.
Greetings Alex I think I understand what you are trying to do but what you are actually doing is increasing discrimination not lessening it with this ruling. An individual's writings were cited and concern was expressed if such would prove true. You responded by classing this quote as discrimination. As I had never heard of the individual cited I had to look him up - - - -it would appear that perhaps your issue should be with the individual cited rather than the citee. As much as I tend to agree that this thread has gone in directions it perhaps should not have gone the actions to end the thread are, to me at least, far scarier than the thread itself. Regards Dee
Hello o1bigtenor, What Ted Leslie said is not a proper citation. Saying a bunch of derogatory things about a group of people and then adding 'if true' is not a citation. This does not provide proper context and is a violation of Code of Conduct. This is a mailing list and not a court precedent, there are no freedom of speech implications here. If you want to discuss moderation decision, please email board@gtalug.org You've been put into moderation queue for the talk mailing list. Alex. On 2019-03-13 3:49 p.m., o1bigtenor wrote:
On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 2:13 PM Alex Volkov via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Okay Ted,
This violates several rules of our code of conduct including discrimination based on gender and gender identity and you are banned from this list.
I also removed Gary from the list because of repeatedly ignoring my warnings that the discussion about Boeing outsourcing is over.
Greetings Alex
I think I understand what you are trying to do but what you are actually doing is increasing discrimination not lessening it with this ruling.
An individual's writings were cited and concern was expressed if such would prove true. You responded by classing this quote as discrimination. As I had never heard of the individual cited I had to look him up - - - -it would appear that perhaps your issue should be with the individual cited rather than the citee.
As much as I tend to agree that this thread has gone in directions it perhaps should not have gone the actions to end the thread are, to me at least, far scarier than the thread itself.
Regards
Dee
Just posted Monday: https://www.lpi.org/blog/2019/03/11/will-robot-eat-your-job While putting the link here may appear self serving, at least it's an attempt to bring this thread actually relevant to the purpose of this list... discussion of Linux and Open Source. (not sure if the "L" word even appears earlier in this thread) Peace. ___________________ Evan Leibovitch, Toronto @evanleibovitch/@el56
Evan, please don't do this. This thread is beyond hope. On 2019-03-13 5:18 p.m., Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
Just posted Monday: https://www.lpi.org/blog/2019/03/11/will-robot-eat-your-job
While putting the link here may appear self serving, at least it's an attempt to bring this thread actually relevant to the purpose of this list... discussion of Linux and Open Source.
(not sure if the "L" word even appears earlier in this thread)
Peace. ___________________ Evan Leibovitch, Toronto @evanleibovitch/@el56
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Understood. Just pissed that after all that, there wasn't one post relevant to Linux. This thread could have been nuked after the first few posts purely on non-relevance. ___________________ Evan Leibovitch, Toronto @evanleibovitch/@el56
Okay everyone, I believe this discussion is moved way off-topic and I don't think anyone would change anyone else mind at this point. So we should leave it at that. Alex.
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 at 11:53, Alex Volkov via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Okay everyone,
I believe this discussion is moved way off-topic and I don't think anyone would change anyone else mind at this point.
So we should leave it at that.
Yes, please. Quoting from the rules about this list... "Particularly for this list: - Don't be the guy on the soapbox, - Try to stay out of political, social, or religious issues," This is certainly a political argument, therefore something we are to "try to stay out of." Individuals may not *think* they're saying things intended to be racist, but that doesn't prevent those things from nevertheless being perceived as such, and that's a decidedly woeful road to PLEASE NOT head down. Explaining why it wasn't is enormously unlikely to help. In national scandal news, the Prime Minister is having little success with his recent attempts to explain his situation, and he has professional staff doubtless trying to help. For those of us without helpful staff, good luck!!!! -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
Folks, In accordance with our code of conduct, we feel it's necessary to intervene on this thread. It has not been conducted in a constructive manner, and veered into racism. Those that have stepped out of line have been notified, and put under the moderation queue. Further attempts to perpetuate this unacceptable behaviour will result in bans. Here is our Code of Conduct if anyone needs a reference on how to behave appropriately --https://gtalug.org/about/code-of-conduct/ On 2019-03-13 3:01 p.m., Christopher Browne via talk wrote:
On Wed, 13 Mar 2019 at 11:53, Alex Volkov via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Okay everyone,
I believe this discussion is moved way off-topic and I don't think anyone would change anyone else mind at this point.
So we should leave it at that. Yes, please.
Quoting from the rules about this list...
"Particularly for this list:
- Don't be the guy on the soapbox, - Try to stay out of political, social, or religious issues,"
This is certainly a political argument, therefore something we are to "try to stay out of."
Individuals may not *think* they're saying things intended to be racist, but that doesn't prevent those things from nevertheless being perceived as such, and that's a decidedly woeful road to PLEASE NOT head down. Explaining why it wasn't is enormously unlikely to help. In national scandal news, the Prime Minister is having little success with his recent attempts to explain his situation, and he has professional staff doubtless trying to help. For those of us without helpful staff, good luck!!!!
Forgive the lack of signature. This is a jointly drafted statement of GTALUG's board of directors. We apologize for the confusion that omission may of caused. This comes from all of us, not just Alex. On March 13, 2019 3:36:23 PM EDT, Alex Volkov via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Folks,
In accordance with our code of conduct, we feel it's necessary to intervene on this thread. It has not been conducted in a constructive manner, and veered into racism.
Those that have stepped out of line have been notified, and put under the moderation queue. Further attempts to perpetuate this unacceptable behaviour will result in bans.
Here is our Code of Conduct if anyone needs a reference on how to behave appropriately --https://gtalug.org/about/code-of-conduct/
-- Scott Sullivan w/ GTALUG President Hat on
And that's what happened to me, I was a Dev for Rogers (The Cell side of the biz) and they moved my work to India and said bye bye to me. As far as I know after 1-2 yrs they brought the job back to Brampton. Because of the issues where it would take double or more time to get things resolved because of the time change, language. On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 9:25 PM James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 03/12/2019 06:45 PM, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
A number of years ago I read that India is generating more engineers per year that the rest of the world combined. How good they are - - - - that's another question.
Several years ago, many companies decided to cut costs by moving help desks etc. to India. Many have come to regret that decision, due to the poor quality "help". In another thread, I mentioned how many put cost ahead of value and we get garbage as a result.
One very important question a lot are missing is who is going to pay for products, services, etc., when more and more of the jobs are moving overseas. At one time, it was just cheap manufactured goods. Now it's IT, legal and medical services and more. When does it end?
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Not to be left behind in an uncompetitive position, our Canadian companies, too, are making great strides in reigning in costs by shifting work offshore.
A friend of mine had a job from hell for a while as Canada-side overseer of an India-based programming effort. The job entailed being up all night to oversee, then being up all day explaining to management what was happening in India. He's a smart, talented guy, but really, how good is *anybody* going to be working like that?
Let me guess he worked for TATA. On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 9:43 PM mwilson--- via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Not to be left behind in an uncompetitive position, our Canadian companies, too, are making great strides in reigning in costs by shifting work offshore.
A friend of mine had a job from hell for a while as Canada-side overseer of an India-based programming effort. The job entailed being up all night to oversee, then being up all day explaining to management what was happening in India. He's a smart, talented guy, but really, how good is *anybody* going to be working like that?
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
participants (18)
-
Alex Volkov -
Alex Volkov -
Alvin Starr -
Christopher Browne -
Dave Collier-Brown -
David Mason -
Dhaval Giani -
Digiital aka David -
Don Tai -
Evan Leibovitch -
Gary -
Howard Gibson -
James Knott -
mwilson＠Vex.Net -
o1bigtenor -
Russell Reiter -
Scott Sullivan -
ted leslie