DECTalk - the venerable text-to-speech system (think Stephen Hawking, or Moonbase Alpha) - seems to be available in source form: https://github.com/dectalk/dectalk There's a web demo: https://webspeak.terminal.ink/ While I've built it and run it quite successfully under Ubuntu, its licence is ... troubling. At best it's abandonware. At worst, there's an owner somewhere who hasn't found the github repo yet to shut it down. As such, it shouldn't be deployed without taking legal advice. [Karen - I know that DECTalk is a subject that matters to you. While this is interesting news, it likely doesn't mean that new, cheap DECTalk boxes will be hitting the streets soon. Some of the reasons include: * the licence: you need the permission of a possibly defunct company to use this software; * porting: the software doesn't seem to be set up to listen to a serial port and speak whatever comes in from that port; * availability of hardware: small Linux computers are in very short supply right now; and * sound quality: the built-in audio hardware on most single-board Linux computers sounds atrocious. Without an add-on amplifier/equalizer, I think you'd be horrified at the lack of fidelity.] cheers, Stewart
Hi Stewart, Most kind of you to remember that I use dectalk in hardware form. actually, I am on the dectalk mailing list where allot of this work has been taking place. there are several efforts being made to, says this kindly, restore the sound quality that I enjoy now as I write, which was profoundly lost in later editions of the software. Oh, and there does actually still exist solid hardware editions of the dectalk. its called the dectalk USB, sells for about $800, and can run under, systems for which there are drivers, windows for example. No one has written quality dectalk drivers for Linux that use the tool though. Sounds like my reading edge however. While indeed some of the new efforts sound quite wonderful i am told the code is absolutely off the table to be used by anyone aiming to distribute. That the source is out there at all, placed by a former digital equipment corporation employee is setting off some serious legal alarms. Honestly? everyone wishes they could do the kind of search leading to exactly who owns the software and code. and there is more than one personification at that. Keep meaning to ring the Library of congress office to ask about the search, speaking personally if owners could be found I feel sure they can be persuaded to create a license structure. Its an interesting debate, with some in the seriously open source camp claiming that defunct company means anyone can use the material...just no. Thanks for sharing, Kare On Sun, 23 Apr 2023, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
DECTalk - the venerable text-to-speech system (think Stephen Hawking, or Moonbase Alpha) - seems to be available in source form:
https://github.com/dectalk/dectalk
There's a web demo: https://webspeak.terminal.ink/
While I've built it and run it quite successfully under Ubuntu, its licence is ... troubling. At best it's abandonware. At worst, there's an owner somewhere who hasn't found the github repo yet to shut it down. As such, it shouldn't be deployed without taking legal advice.
[Karen - I know that DECTalk is a subject that matters to you. While this is interesting news, it likely doesn't mean that new, cheap DECTalk boxes will be hitting the streets soon. Some of the reasons include:
* the licence: you need the permission of a possibly defunct company to use this software;
* porting: the software doesn't seem to be set up to listen to a serial port and speak whatever comes in from that port;
* availability of hardware: small Linux computers are in very short supply right now; and
* sound quality: the built-in audio hardware on most single-board Linux computers sounds atrocious. Without an add-on amplifier/equalizer, I think you'd be horrified at the lack of fidelity.]
cheers, Stewart --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 24/04/2023 00.14, Karen Lewellen wrote:
actually, I am on the dectalk mailing list
Ah, thought you might be - so you're way ahead of me.
its called the dectalk USB, sells for about $800, and can run under, systems for which there are drivers, windows for example. No one has written quality dectalk drivers for Linux that use the tool though.
Oof, the disability tax is well in evidence there. Considering that this will be based on the same Epson DECTalk chip that used to appear on hobbyist boarsd costing $100, someone's doing not badly off that. The drivers have been the hard part: the EMIC-2 DECTalk board I have has the crudest serial connection I've ever used. It's great for tiny phrases, but reading long texts is painful. It also features a loud pop every time it finishes a reading as it turns off its amplifier. DECTalk seems to collect stories of loss. The article on TropeTrainer — https://www.inverse.com/input/features/tropetrainer-thomas-buchler-torah-sof... — a Torah recital package that went silent after its developer passed away, is quite touching. Stewart
Hi Stewart, only speaking to your disability tax idea. Fully understanding that likely few here have much direct experience with these tools, there is a profound serious and expansive difference between a synthesizer, and a tts engine. for example, I believe? your hobbyists board used the dectalk later than 4.2 or so, even perhaps a dectalk 5? Grand while back I sent someone seeking the USB to your module site where they listened to the dectalk provided there. the erosion of quality is part of why so much energy is going into the recovery effort, the dectalk from your module source is not, said kindly, in the same universe as what I use, and others who have enjoyed the voice from the 80s and 90s prefer. Then there is exactly what the dectalk USB, which goes back perhaps 15 years or more, certainly prior to the dectalk code being sold to its last owner actually does. Again, its not a tts. Instead, it becomes a talking monitor. speaking background and foreground changes, colours and characters, tracking for notifications, managing rate, pitch and speed. managing every single symbol on the screen, or not as you desire. Want to get individual numbers, or have the words for them? Want phonetic announcing of letters? How about IBM, or international business machines, even if only three letters are there? When paired with an actual, well crafted screen reader program, that is what this unit does. In multiple languages across operating systems with easy to understand voices that can even sing. Does the price tag make more sense? Kare On Mon, 24 Apr 2023, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
On 24/04/2023 00.14, Karen Lewellen wrote:
actually, I am on the dectalk mailing list
Ah, thought you might be - so you're way ahead of me.
its called the dectalk USB, sells for about $800, and can run under, systems for which there are drivers, windows for example. No one has written quality dectalk drivers for Linux that use the tool though.
Oof, the disability tax is well in evidence there. Considering that this will be based on the same Epson DECTalk chip that used to appear on hobbyist boarsd costing $100, someone's doing not badly off that. The drivers have been the hard part: the EMIC-2 DECTalk board I have has the crudest serial connection I've ever used. It's great for tiny phrases, but reading long texts is painful. It also features a loud pop every time it finishes a reading as it turns off its amplifier.
DECTalk seems to collect stories of loss. The article on TropeTrainer — https://www.inverse.com/input/features/tropetrainer-thomas-buchler-torah-sof... — a Torah recital package that went silent after its developer passed away, is quite touching.
Stewart
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 4/24/23 00:14, Karen Lewellen via talk wrote:
Hi Stewart,
That the source is out there at all, placed by a former digital equipment corporation employee is setting off some serious legal alarms. Honestly? everyone wishes they could do the kind of search leading to exactly who owns the software and code. and there is more than one personification at that. Keep meaning to ring the Library of congress office to ask about the search, speaking personally if owners could be found I feel sure they can be persuaded to create a license structure. Its an interesting debate, with some in the seriously open source camp claiming that defunct company means anyone can use the material...just no.
At best, it isn't out of copyright in the US until 50 years after the death of the last author, assuming it wasn't made as a work by hire. The life of a corporation who is the owner of a copyright they had made as a work for hire is a bit less well-defined. Alas, the courts don't assume the company was never alive (;-)) --dave
| From: Stewart C. Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | * availability of hardware: small Linux computers are in very short supply | right now; and | | * sound quality: the built-in audio hardware on most single-board Linux | computers sounds atrocious. Without an add-on amplifier/equalizer, I think | you'd be horrified at the lack of fidelity.] There are a lot of used Lenovo ThinkCentre M93p Tiny computers available, starting at $100. These are ancient "1 liter" PCs that are great for Linux. Built like tanks. I have had three for a long time. <https://forums.redflagdeals.com/bestbuy-marketplace-vendor-x-dynamic-uniway-refurb-good-lenovo-m93p-tiny-pc-w10p-intel-i5-4570t-101-00-8-gb-240-gb-ssd-2607386/> For $200ish you can get modern low-end Win11 boxes. Even smaller than the ThinkCentre Tiny form factor. The Intel N95 and N100 are recent Intel Core processors but with only "Efficiency" cores. They seem to be more performant than recent chips with Atom microarchitecture. Not built like tanks. Here are a couple of $196 examples (I don't know enough to recommend them): <https://www.amazon.ca/Windows-Desktop-3200U-Working-Computer/dp/B09QSBCCC1/ref=sr_1_11> <https://www.amazon.ca/Windows-Generation-Processors-Support-60Hz11/dp/B09MCZBZP6/ref=sr_1_5> These little PCs are not as cute as single-board computers but they sure are no-fuss to use. Standard Linux distros just work. Karen: I infer from previous discussions that your requirements of audio systems are critical but not easy to specify. And testing is potentially dangerous. So it would be foolish to recommend anything new to you. Especially something horrible!
On 24/04/2023 02.35, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
There are a lot of used Lenovo ThinkCentre M93p Tiny computers available, starting at $100. These are neat, but I was thinking of a portable device like the later DECTalk boxes. Still, that's a heck of a deal. I may replace my 2013 Samsung laptop with one for the "Do I have to?" Windows moments.
Stewart
| From: Stewart C. Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | On 24/04/2023 02.35, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote: | > There are a lot of used Lenovo ThinkCentre M93p Tiny computers | > available, starting at $100. | These are neat, but I was thinking of a portable device like the later DECTalk | boxes. Still, that's a heck of a deal. I may replace my 2013 Samsung laptop | with one for the "Do I have to?" Windows moments. 1. There are many choices of these off-lease ThinkCentre computers. In that RFD thread I pointed out a $~150 choice that I thought might be worth the extra fifty dollars. 2. These little computers are easy to stick on a shelf. But when you use them for Windows, you need a monitor, keyboard, and mouse. Don't forget that (I know you wouldn't have; it's a figure of speach). But you probably have those laying around that you can temporarily repurpose. But it is a reason to consider a cheap old notebook instead. 3. This is tax time. Exactly when I need Windows. I'm using one of my M93p's for exactly that purpose. For confidential work like that, I prefer a desktop so that I don't accidentally take it out of my house. Besides, a large screen helps for tax-related work. 4. I don't find off-lease notebooks as attractive. Enough things have advanced over the years that they just aren't as useful as cheap newer notebooks. I have bought used notebooks but not that aged. 5. In some ways, the best time to have bought off-lease stuff was when the Intel Core 10th generation was current: the progress between the fourth and tenth generation was so slow that you didn't lose a lot being behind. My impression is that the 11th and 12th were significant steps. The 13th is better still but I don't know how much. Unfortunately business machines tend to ignore AMD. We do have Lenovo ThinkCentre M75q Tiny computers which are AMD-based.
Thanks Hugh, I'm trying to think of use case at work. On 2023-04-24 02:35, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote: ...
There are a lot of used Lenovo ThinkCentre M93p Tiny computers available, starting at $100. These are ancient "1 liter" PCs that are great for Linux. Built like tanks. I have had three for a long time. <https://forums.redflagdeals.com/bestbuy-marketplace-vendor-x-dynamic-uniway-refurb-good-lenovo-m93p-tiny-pc-w10p-intel-i5-4570t-101-00-8-gb-240-gb-ssd-2607386/>
Get a used Dell Thin client. Amazing tiny boxes. On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 2:35 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: Stewart C. Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
| * availability of hardware: small Linux computers are in very short supply | right now; and | | * sound quality: the built-in audio hardware on most single-board Linux | computers sounds atrocious. Without an add-on amplifier/equalizer, I think | you'd be horrified at the lack of fidelity.]
There are a lot of used Lenovo ThinkCentre M93p Tiny computers available, starting at $100. These are ancient "1 liter" PCs that are great for Linux. Built like tanks. I have had three for a long time. < https://forums.redflagdeals.com/bestbuy-marketplace-vendor-x-dynamic-uniway-...
For $200ish you can get modern low-end Win11 boxes. Even smaller than the ThinkCentre Tiny form factor. The Intel N95 and N100 are recent Intel Core processors but with only "Efficiency" cores. They seem to be more performant than recent chips with Atom microarchitecture. Not built like tanks. Here are a couple of $196 examples (I don't know enough to recommend them): < https://www.amazon.ca/Windows-Desktop-3200U-Working-Computer/dp/B09QSBCCC1/r...
< https://www.amazon.ca/Windows-Generation-Processors-Support-60Hz11/dp/B09MCZ...
These little PCs are not as cute as single-board computers but they sure are no-fuss to use. Standard Linux distros just work.
Karen: I infer from previous discussions that your requirements of audio systems are critical but not easy to specify. And testing is potentially dangerous. So it would be foolish to recommend anything new to you. Especially something horrible! --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
| From: Ansar Mohammed via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | Get a used Dell Thin client. Amazing tiny boxes. Do you have a link to an offer that you think is worthy? I'd be interested to see what they are. Are they "Wyse" branded? (I see several apparently bad choices when I search for "dell thin client" with duckduckgo.com.) A lot of "thin clients" used to be too resource-constrained and intentionally hard to expand. (The only thin client I have is a Sun Ray 270! It is a museum piece -- I've never turned it on. I imagine that it requires an infrastructure that I don't have.)
By "thin client" do you mean the ultra small form factor (USFF) PC or an actual client (such as Dell Wyse, which is basically a RDP/Citrix/VNC client and not a stand alone computer)? I hope this is not against the mailing list rules, but I've been using these guys out of Burlington for years to buy such used hardware. They have several USFF machines available from both Lenovo and Dell. They categorize them as TINY in the "Form factor" column. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-hKAmQahPcEV_h5mwflWGLWCQtqkKOBDbsakv4ee2u0/edit?authkey=CM3vpdoP&hl=en&authkey=CM3vpdoP&hl=en#gid=0
On Apr 25, 2023, at 11:05, Ansar Mohammed via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Get a used Dell Thin client. Amazing tiny boxes.
On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 2:35 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:
| From: Stewart C. Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>>
| * availability of hardware: small Linux computers are in very short supply | right now; and | | * sound quality: the built-in audio hardware on most single-board Linux | computers sounds atrocious. Without an add-on amplifier/equalizer, I think | you'd be horrified at the lack of fidelity.]
There are a lot of used Lenovo ThinkCentre M93p Tiny computers available, starting at $100. These are ancient "1 liter" PCs that are great for Linux. Built like tanks. I have had three for a long time. <https://forums.redflagdeals.com/bestbuy-marketplace-vendor-x-dynamic-uniway-refurb-good-lenovo-m93p-tiny-pc-w10p-intel-i5-4570t-101-00-8-gb-240-gb-ssd-2607386/>
For $200ish you can get modern low-end Win11 boxes. Even smaller than the ThinkCentre Tiny form factor. The Intel N95 and N100 are recent Intel Core processors but with only "Efficiency" cores. They seem to be more performant than recent chips with Atom microarchitecture. Not built like tanks. Here are a couple of $196 examples (I don't know enough to recommend them): <https://www.amazon.ca/Windows-Desktop-3200U-Working-Computer/dp/B09QSBCCC1/ref=sr_1_11> <https://www.amazon.ca/Windows-Generation-Processors-Support-60Hz11/dp/B09MCZBZP6/ref=sr_1_5>
These little PCs are not as cute as single-board computers but they sure are no-fuss to use. Standard Linux distros just work.
Karen: I infer from previous discussions that your requirements of audio systems are critical but not easy to specify. And testing is potentially dangerous. So it would be foolish to recommend anything new to you. Especially something horrible! --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org> Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Most Thin Clients are SFF x64/x86 PCs. Used Dells/HPs are the most prevalent and quite inexpensive. The "modern" ones i.e. the ones that have been manufactured over the last 10 years come with 1080p and premium sound. Parkytowers is a pretty good repository https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/10zig/ On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 12:04 PM Alex Kink via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
By "thin client" do you mean the ultra small form factor (USFF) PC or an actual client (such as Dell Wyse, which is basically a RDP/Citrix/VNC client and not a stand alone computer)?
I hope this is not against the mailing list rules, but I've been using these guys out of Burlington for years to buy such used hardware. They have several USFF machines available from both Lenovo and Dell. They categorize them as TINY in the "Form factor" column.
On Apr 25, 2023, at 11:05, Ansar Mohammed via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Get a used Dell Thin client. Amazing tiny boxes.
On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 2:35 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk < talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: Stewart C. Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
| * availability of hardware: small Linux computers are in very short supply | right now; and | | * sound quality: the built-in audio hardware on most single-board Linux | computers sounds atrocious. Without an add-on amplifier/equalizer, I think | you'd be horrified at the lack of fidelity.]
There are a lot of used Lenovo ThinkCentre M93p Tiny computers available, starting at $100. These are ancient "1 liter" PCs that are great for Linux. Built like tanks. I have had three for a long time. < https://forums.redflagdeals.com/bestbuy-marketplace-vendor-x-dynamic-uniway-...
For $200ish you can get modern low-end Win11 boxes. Even smaller than the ThinkCentre Tiny form factor. The Intel N95 and N100 are recent Intel Core processors but with only "Efficiency" cores. They seem to be more performant than recent chips with Atom microarchitecture. Not built like tanks. Here are a couple of $196 examples (I don't know enough to recommend them): < https://www.amazon.ca/Windows-Desktop-3200U-Working-Computer/dp/B09QSBCCC1/r...
< https://www.amazon.ca/Windows-Generation-Processors-Support-60Hz11/dp/B09MCZ...
These little PCs are not as cute as single-board computers but they sure are no-fuss to use. Standard Linux distros just work.
Karen: I infer from previous discussions that your requirements of audio systems are critical but not easy to specify. And testing is potentially dangerous. So it would be foolish to recommend anything new to you. Especially something horrible! --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
| From: Ansar Mohammed via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | | Most Thin Clients are SFF x64/x86 PCs. Used Dells/HPs are the most | prevalent and quite inexpensive. | The "modern" ones i.e. the ones that have been manufactured over the last | 10 years come with 1080p and premium sound. | Parkytowers is a pretty good repository | https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/10zig/ Where are they quite inexpensive? A quick search for "thin client" on ebay.ca didn't seem to result in anything seemed cheaper and better than the M93p Tiny. I know some people have found treasures but I didn't notice any. --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Take a look at: https://www.dellrefurbished.ca/desktop-computers I actually use 10zig thin clients at work as Teradici (HP Anyware) clients, but we've since swapped to these <$200 SFF machines that work just as well. On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 5:43 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: Ansar Mohammed via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | | Most Thin Clients are SFF x64/x86 PCs. Used Dells/HPs are the most | prevalent and quite inexpensive. | The "modern" ones i.e. the ones that have been manufactured over the last | 10 years come with 1080p and premium sound. | Parkytowers is a pretty good repository | https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/10zig/
Where are they quite inexpensive?
A quick search for "thin client" on ebay.ca didn't seem to result in anything seemed cheaper and better than the M93p Tiny.
I know some people have found treasures but I didn't notice any.--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
| From: Ijaaz A. Ullah <ijaazu@gmail.com> | Take a look at: https://www.dellrefurbished.ca/desktop-computers Thanks for the link. I do look at that site once in a while but it has been years since I last bought something from them. They don't have these 1 liter boxes very often but they have three "micro" computers right now (oops: one now). Those are not cheaper than the ThinkCentres I've been looking at. The $179 3050 isn't too bad (only one available; gone now). To be honest, I don't need any more than I already have. But I love window shopping. I recently bought a couple of $~300 ThinkCentre M75q Tiny computers -- much newer. Intel processor improvements between 4th gen and 10th gen are not very impressive. The dirt cheap units seem to be 7th gen or earlier (probably due to the looming end of of support from Windows). I posted the message to point out to people just how cheap a useful box could be. | I actually use 10zig thin clients at work as Teradici (HP Anyware) clients, | but we've since swapped to these <$200 SFF machines that work just as well. Yeah. I don't know much about those and I doubt that they are useful to me.
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/292442306475 $20/unit with shipping On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 5:43 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh@mimosa.com> wrote:
| From: Ansar Mohammed via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | | Most Thin Clients are SFF x64/x86 PCs. Used Dells/HPs are the most | prevalent and quite inexpensive. | The "modern" ones i.e. the ones that have been manufactured over the last | 10 years come with 1080p and premium sound. | Parkytowers is a pretty good repository | https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/10zig/
Where are they quite inexpensive?
A quick search for "thin client" on ebay.ca didn't seem to result in anything seemed cheaper and better than the M93p Tiny.
I know some people have found treasures but I didn't notice any.--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Apr 26, 2023, at 10:53, Ansar Mohammed via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/292442306475
$20/unit with shipping
Am I missing something? 
On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 10:53 AM Ansar Mohammed via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/292442306475
$20/unit with shipping
That's got a VIA C7 inside. It's a very slow 32-bit processor that was superseded 15 years ago. Stewart
| From: Stewart Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 10:53 AM Ansar Mohammed via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | wrote: | | > https://www.ebay.ca/itm/292442306475 | > | > $20/unit with shipping Interesting. The listing says US$84.94 + US43.97 shipping. A little more that $200. Much worse that two M93p units! But I know that one can stumble on much better deals for these. You've got to know what you are buying too. | That's got a VIA C7 inside. It's a very slow 32-bit processor that was | superseded 15 years ago. This one is described here. It is the best one listed on this page. <https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/wyse/cx0/> I don't remember for sure, but I think that the C7 is missing some instructions that current kernels require. CMOV? I might be wrong: it could be that most distros compile kernels this way but that the C7 is still supported upstream Is the video controller supported by X or Wayland? No USB 3.x 1G of RAM is tight these days. 2G of flash isn't enough for anything I'd want to run locally.
On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 3:16 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
This one is described here. It is the best one listed on this page. <https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/wyse/cx0/>
Note, though, that parkytowers doesn't seem to have been updated in several years, and didn't typically review machines that cost the author more than about $50. Any of the more powerful/recent/expensive articles seem to come from third parties. It was a curse of the Raspberry Pi 4 that, just as it started to dominate the thin client market, the chip shortage did for its supply
Do'h wrong link https://www.ebay.ca/itm/125888386765?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=tpIqUIMdSAS&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY [image: image.png] On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 3:16 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: Stewart Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
| On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 10:53 AM Ansar Mohammed via talk < talk@gtalug.org> | wrote: | | > https://www.ebay.ca/itm/292442306475 | > | > $20/unit with shipping
Interesting.
The listing says US$84.94 + US43.97 shipping. A little more that $200. Much worse that two M93p units!
But I know that one can stumble on much better deals for these. You've got to know what you are buying too.
| That's got a VIA C7 inside. It's a very slow 32-bit processor that was | superseded 15 years ago.
This one is described here. It is the best one listed on this page. <https://www.parkytowers.me.uk/thin/wyse/cx0/>
I don't remember for sure, but I think that the C7 is missing some instructions that current kernels require. CMOV? I might be wrong: it could be that most distros compile kernels this way but that the C7 is still supported upstream
Is the video controller supported by X or Wayland?
No USB 3.x
1G of RAM is tight these days. 2G of flash isn't enough for anything I'd want to run locally.--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
| From: Ansar Mohammed via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | Do'h | wrong link | https://www.ebay.ca/itm/125888386765?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=tpIqUIMdSAS&sssrc=2047675&ssuid=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY That's different. Better: - five for US$69 + US$39.90 shipping. Close to $150. - Atom N2807 processor (launched Q1 2014, much later than the Via C7). <https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/products/81072/intel-celeron-processor-n2807-1m-cache-up-to-2-16-ghz.html> - one USB 3.1 port - 4G eMMC (cannot be expanded, so not good enough) - 2G RAM (soldered so it cannot be expanded) - for the very ambitious: there is an unpopulated mSATA area on the PCB. Still not capable enough for me to play with. I already have more powerful devices getting lonely on my shelves. For example, a couple of these: <https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/infocus-kangaroo-mobile-desktop>
Hi Stewart, Your comment is no doubt true. however, if one is building a setup for a simple accommodation, given for Linux and some other systems the older distros, or the 32 bit ones might actually be better. Depends on the goal does it not? Consider the freedos project. www.freedos.org Just a thought, Karen On Wed, 26 Apr 2023, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
On Wed, Apr 26, 2023 at 10:53 AM Ansar Mohammed via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
https://www.ebay.ca/itm/292442306475
$20/unit with shipping
That's got a VIA C7 inside. It's a very slow 32-bit processor that was superseded 15 years ago.
Stewart
| From: Karen Lewellen via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | Hi Stewart, | Your comment is no doubt true. however, if one is building a setup for a | simple accommodation, given for Linux and some other systems the older | distros, or the 32 bit ones might actually be better. | Depends on the goal does it not? | Consider the freedos project. | www.freedos.org | Just a thought, Right. So far, all x86-64 processors can also run 32-bit programs. But UEFI firmware comes in 32-bit or 64-bit. So the almost-nonexistent 32-bit OS that runs under UEFI is pretty much out of luck. But almost all 32-bit OSes (like FreeDOS) booted in MBR / "legacy mode", not UEFI. They work fine when booted this way. But some locked-down devices don't support "legacy mode". This will surely become common for all device in the future but it doesn't seem to be yet. For example, the Lenovo ThinkCentre devices do support legacy mode booting. Details: Examples of 32-bit x86 UEFI systems: - the very first Intel-based Macs. Their Intel Core Duo processor was 32-bit only. But their UEFI implementations were screwy anyway. Avoid. Apple shortly went to 64-bit with the Core 2 Duo. - some x86 machines were designed to compete with ARM devices (on price and capabilities) and not eat into the market for higher-priced X86 devices. Through licensing terms, Intel and Microsoft attempted this anti-competitive feat. These devices used Intel x86 Atom chips that could run 64-bit code but had 32-bit UEFI-only firmware (no legacy). The intention was to limit them to 32-bit Windows. Sneaky Linux folks managed to run 64-bit kernels and userland on top of 32-bit UEFI. I have a few of these devices, all getting old since Intel threw in the towel on this fight many years ago. Example devices: Dell Venue 8 pro tablet, Asus Transformer T100 TAF. Enabling legacy mode: This can be tricky. You have to go into the firmware setup screen. This is usually called the BIOS setup screen but that is a misnomer: under UEFI there is no BIOS, only firmware. The actual setting changes required are odd and idiosyncratic -- different for different machines. Here are some hints: - Secure Boot and MBR booting don't co-exist well. Turn off Secure Boot. - UEFI booting is the opposite of "Legacy Booting". Select legacy booting. - enable "CSM" (Compatibility Support Module). This is the thing in UEFI firmware that emulates BIOS system calls. Some firmware requires you to enable this to even see the other required options. - the boot order screen may talk about UEFI and Legacy targets. Make sure you enable Legacy. Finding all this stuff may seem like the classic game "Adventure". I'm currently having trouble booting FreeDOS on a computer I just got. I haven't figured it out but I haven't given up.
On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 2:35 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
There are a lot of used Lenovo ThinkCentre M93p Tiny computers available, starting at $100.
I just got one of these, for $100 as recommended. It's rather nice (apart from the whole Windows thing), but ... no wifi! I didn't think a computer could exist that didn't have wifi! So it's making do with an ancient realtek USB dongle I used to use on first-gen Raspberry Pis. I've seen faster dialup. Anyway, $100 for an 8 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD, 3-ish GHz multi-core 64-bit computer is not bad. Stewart
| From: Stewart Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | I just got one of these, for $100 as recommended. It's rather nice (apart | from the whole Windows thing), but ... no wifi! I didn't think a computer | could exist that didn't have wifi! So it's making do with an ancient | realtek USB dongle I used to use on first-gen Raspberry Pis. I've seen | faster dialup. | | Anyway, $100 for an 8 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD, 3-ish GHz multi-core 64-bit | computer is not bad. There's a wealth of choice, cheap. But yeah, you can be surprised at what's missing. My most recent purchase was of a Lenovo ThinkCentre M75s Gen 2 through ebay. This is a Small Form Factor machine. It was used as some kind of remote desktoppy thing (the HDD had a little Linux installation with a proprietary layer on top). I was surprised that they hadn't wiped it. My real surprise came when I tried to add an NVMe drive. There's a socket but you need to get a mechanical appliance to support the darned thing. They are $13.51 from Lenovo but they don't actually have any and might never again have them (who can tell). For more money I can get them from China (without the heat-sink part). <https://www.lenovo.com/ca/en/p/accessories-and-software/thinkcentre-and-thinkstation/thinkcentre-and-thinkstation-hard-drives/4xf1c39743> Other proprietary boxes require optional extra-cost sleds for HDDs. (the M93p doesn't play this game). About WiFi cards: I recently bought, but have not installed, an M.2 WiFi 6e card (plus antennae) for about $25 from AliExpress. Based on an Intel ax210. Funny how that's about a quarter of the price of your whole computer. <https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003140166366.html> Currently the following PCI card, containing an AX210 module, is $25.92. Apparently you can dis-assemble it and take out an m.2 card: <https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004959613888.html> Note: AliExpress listings are terrible for bait-and-switch. Make sure to select the right "color". Less deceptive: do note the shipping price.
participants (9)
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Alex Kink -
Ansar Mohammed -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
David Collier-Brown -
Ijaaz A. Ullah -
Karen Lewellen -
Stewart C. Russell -
Stewart Russell
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William Park