Hi all, I was upgraded (by my ISP) from Cable 75 (75M/10M) to Cable 100 (100M/30M). It turns out my router (Asus RT-N66U) maxes out at 85M/30M. Connecting directly to the modem, I get full 100M/30M. So, it's time for a new router. It's been long time since I shopped for a router. Which one do you recommend?
I would suggest one of those ridiculous looking TP-Link units with several antennas. I've installed them here and there and have one of the "WiFi6" capable units at home and they perform very well for what they cost. Not suggesting any particular model, just whatever fits in the budget.
On Mar 8, 2023, at 01:09, William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hi all,
I was upgraded (by my ISP) from Cable 75 (75M/10M) to Cable 100 (100M/30M). It turns out my router (Asus RT-N66U) maxes out at 85M/30M. Connecting directly to the modem, I get full 100M/30M.
So, it's time for a new router. It's been long time since I shopped for a router. Which one do you recommend? --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
At the suggestion of someone here, I installed a UniFi router (where it comes into the house and supports several wired Ethernet connections) and remote Access Point at a central point in the house. Couldn't be happier! ../Dave On Wed, 8 Mar 2023 at 07:20, Alex Kink via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I would suggest one of those ridiculous looking TP-Link units with several antennas. I've installed them here and there and have one of the "WiFi6" capable units at home and they perform very well for what they cost. Not suggesting any particular model, just whatever fits in the budget.
On Mar 8, 2023, at 01:09, William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hi all,
I was upgraded (by my ISP) from Cable 75 (75M/10M) to Cable 100 (100M/30M). It turns out my router (Asus RT-N66U) maxes out at 85M/30M. Connecting directly to the modem, I get full 100M/30M.
So, it's time for a new router. It's been long time since I shopped for a router. Which one do you recommend? --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Alex Kink via talk wrote on 2023-03-08 04:19:
I would suggest one of those ridiculous looking TP-Link units with several antennas.
I haven't had to upgrade a router in a while, but Jim Salter (ArsTechnica writer, 2.5Admins.com podcaster, Syncoid/Sanoid author, SysAdmin guru, ZFS evangelist) recommends TP-Link routers for most use cases, and he generally knows his stuff quite well.
Remember how our homebrew router embarrassed off-the-shelf options? Go make your own.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2016/04/the-ars-guide-to-building-a-linux-ro... Also of interest: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/02/the-ars-technica-semi-scientific-gui...
On 2023-03-08 13:43, BCLUG via talk wrote:
I haven't had to upgrade a router in a while, but Jim Salter (ArsTechnica writer, 2.5Admins.com podcaster, Syncoid/Sanoid author, SysAdmin guru, ZFS evangelist) recommends TP-Link routers for most use cases, and he generally knows his stuff quite well.
I can't say about their routers, but a while back some of their switches and access points had problems with multicasts on VLANs, as they apparently didn't fully understand how VLANs work. This made it impossible for me to have IPv6 on my guest WiFi. I have since replaced that AP with a Unifi AC-Lite, which works well. I believe that issue has since been resolved.
There are a smallish number with software that's been debloated. I recommend https://evenroute.com/ They have been supporting the "bufferbloat" efforts I spoke about at GTALUG years ago: see https://evenroute.com/bufferbloat --dave On 3/8/23 01:09, William Park via talk wrote:
Hi all,
I was upgraded (by my ISP) from Cable 75 (75M/10M) to Cable 100 (100M/30M). It turns out my router (Asus RT-N66U) maxes out at 85M/30M. Connecting directly to the modem, I get full 100M/30M.
So, it's time for a new router. It's been long time since I shopped for a router. Which one do you recommend? --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.
Do you need more than 85M/30M? The DVP is probably capable of 200kph on the straight parts, but we don't need to go that fast.. On Wed, 8 Mar 2023 at 01:10, William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hi all,
I was upgraded (by my ISP) from Cable 75 (75M/10M) to Cable 100 (100M/30M). It turns out my router (Asus RT-N66U) maxes out at 85M/30M. Connecting directly to the modem, I get full 100M/30M.
So, it's time for a new router. It's been long time since I shopped for a router. Which one do you recommend? --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 2023-03-08 10:20, Don Tai via talk wrote:
Do you need more than 85M/30M? The DVP is probably capable of 200kph on the straight parts, but we don't need to go that fast..
I don't know about elsewhere but, on Rogers, bandwidth has increased dramatically over the past few years. I currently get over 900 Mb down. Fibre on Bell will also deliver similar or more. Rogers even offers 8 Gb!
Can you even detect the increased speed difference? I cannot. More is not necessarily more effective in my use case. On Wed, 8 Mar 2023 at 10:24, James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2023-03-08 10:20, Don Tai via talk wrote:
Do you need more than 85M/30M? The DVP is probably capable of 200kph on the straight parts, but we don't need to go that fast..
I don't know about elsewhere but, on Rogers, bandwidth has increased dramatically over the past few years. I currently get over 900 Mb down. Fibre on Bell will also deliver similar or more. Rogers even offers 8 Gb!
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Wed, Mar 08, 2023 at 10:28:09AM -0500, Don Tai via talk wrote:
Can you even detect the increased speed difference? I cannot. More is not necessarily more effective in my use case.
I can tell the difference between my 25Mbit down at home, and the 1Gbit at the office. File transfers are a lot faster at work. -- Len Sorensen
On 2023-03-08 13:34, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
I can tell the difference between my 25Mbit down at home, and the 1Gbit at the office. File transfers are a lot faster at work.
That will depend entirely on how your work is connected. Many small businesses have the same sort of connection as home users. Others have a dedicated fibre to their Internet connection. It could be to an ISP or to an Internet exchange point and they'd have their own autonomous network. The fastest I've come across in my work is 10 Gb for a Scotiabank data centre.
On Wed, Mar 08, 2023 at 01:46:24PM -0500, James Knott via talk wrote:
That will depend entirely on how your work is connected. Many small businesses have the same sort of connection as home users. Others have a dedicated fibre to their Internet connection. It could be to an ISP or to an Internet exchange point and they'd have their own autonomous network. The fastest I've come across in my work is 10 Gb for a Scotiabank data centre.
The office appears to have a fiber connection to allstream which I seem to recall is a known ISP in Toronto. -- Len Sorensen
On 2023-03-08 16:57, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
The office appears to have a fiber connection to allstream which I seem to recall is a known ISP in Toronto.
Actually, they're a carrier who also provides Internet access. When I set up fibre connections to data centres and other customers, it was for Allstream. Allstream is what's left of CN Telecom/CNCP/Unitel, where I worked for 23 years.
They can deliver lots of bandwidth, but pretty horrid service under load. The lat time I ran a load test, the latency to downtown was what I would expect for latency to Instambul ... Thus my interest in the bufferbloat project, and fair queuing. Rogers' is unfair (;-)) --dave On 3/8/23 10:24, James Knott via talk wrote:
On 2023-03-08 10:20, Don Tai via talk wrote:
Do you need more than 85M/30M? The DVP is probably capable of 200kph on the straight parts, but we don't need to go that fast..
I don't know about elsewhere but, on Rogers, bandwidth has increased dramatically over the past few years. I currently get over 900 Mb down. Fibre on Bell will also deliver similar or more. Rogers even offers 8 Gb!
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.
As speeds get faster you also heed to look at the Bandwidth Delay Product. I started to see customers with problems caused by this once gigabit WANs became popular. On 2023-03-08 10:38, Dave Collier-Brown via talk wrote:
They can deliver lots of bandwidth, but pretty horrid service under load. The lat time I ran a load test, the latency to downtown was what I would expect for latency to Instambul ...
Thus my interest in the bufferbloat project, and fair queuing. Rogers' is unfair (;-))
--dave
On 3/8/23 10:24, James Knott via talk wrote:
On 2023-03-08 10:20, Don Tai via talk wrote:
Do you need more than 85M/30M? The DVP is probably capable of 200kph on the straight parts, but we don't need to go that fast..
I don't know about elsewhere but, on Rogers, bandwidth has increased dramatically over the past few years. I currently get over 900 Mb down. Fibre on Bell will also deliver similar or more. Rogers even offers 8 Gb!
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory. --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
The differences in Bell vs Rogers are mostly in the hardware used. They both use off-the-shelf good routers in the middle, and the cheapest possible routers to rent to their customers at the edge. The differences I was looking at are from software: I use descendants of OpenWRT. They use whatever was cheap at the time. I expect them both to be horrible in varying degrees (;-)) --dave On 3/8/23 10:51, James Knott via talk wrote:
On 2023-03-08 10:38, Dave Collier-Brown via talk wrote:
They can deliver lots of bandwidth, but pretty horrid service under load. The lat time I ran a load test, the latency to downtown was what I would expect for latency to Instambul ...
I wonder how things compare with fibre.
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.
On 2023-03-08 11:28, Dave Collier-Brown via talk wrote:
The differences in Bell vs Rogers are mostly in the hardware used. They both use off-the-shelf good routers in the middle, and the cheapest possible routers to rent to their customers at the edge.
Rogers uses Cisco gear, at least at the cell sites. I don't recall what they use in the cable head ends, as it's been a few years since I was in one. However, I have some work coming up there shortly, so I'll have to take a look.
The differences I was looking at are from software: I use descendants of OpenWRT. They use whatever was cheap at the time. I expect them both to be horrible in varying degrees (;-))
I have never used OpenWRT. My first router was Slackware & ipchains, on an old 486 PC.
On Wed, Mar 08, 2023 at 11:53:34AM -0500, James Knott via talk wrote:
Rogers uses Cisco gear, at least at the cell sites. I don't recall what they use in the cable head ends, as it's been a few years since I was in one. However, I have some work coming up there shortly, so I'll have to take a look.
Well for FTTH it seems they use Nokia ONT adapters along with XFi Ap/routers (XB8/XB7/XB6 depending on speed it seems). For 8Gbit service they also give you a 10Gbit switch to put between the ONT and gateway for devices you want to have fast wired internet sine the gateway only has a 2.5G WAN port and 4 (or less) 1Gbit client ports. Connecting your own stuff entirely to the ONT is apparently perfectly fine although if you want access to their TV services you probably need to use their gateway as well. -- Len Sorensen
On 2023-03-08 14:47, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
Well for FTTH it seems they use Nokia ONT adapters along with XFi Ap/routers (XB8/XB7/XB6 depending on speed it seems). For 8Gbit service they also give you a 10Gbit switch to put between the ONT and gateway for devices you want to have fast wired internet sine the gateway only has a 2.5G WAN port and 4 (or less) 1Gbit client ports.
Yep, you can have multiple devices, each getting it's own public address.
Connecting your own stuff entirely to the ONT is apparently perfectly fine although if you want access to their TV services you probably need to use their gateway as well.
I don't think so. My modem is in bridge mode and IPTV works fine. BTW, the modem also provides 2 public IPv4 addresses, 1 on each port.
On Wed, Mar 08, 2023 at 02:51:41PM -0500, James Knott via talk wrote:
Yep, you can have multiple devices, each getting it's own public address.
Do they offer IPv6 service yet or is that still something they don't know about? My DSL service has had IPv6 working for years after all.
I don't think so. My modem is in bridge mode and IPTV works fine. BTW, the modem also provides 2 public IPv4 addresses, 1 on each port.
I haven't seen the new ignite TV boxes. I thought they were wifi connected and need some specific SSID. I guess if they can do wired, that would be more reliable (but slightly less flexible in placement). I have had cable boxes for years but that defintely won't be the same on a fiber connection. If they provide a switch I would suspect they give you more than two IPs, or perhasp the switch they provide for 8Gig service is also a router? I wouldn't have thought the ONT did NAT or firewalling. -- Len Sorensen
On 2023-03-08 16:54, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
On Wed, Mar 08, 2023 at 02:51:41PM -0500, James Knott via talk wrote:
Yep, you can have multiple devices, each getting it's own public address. Do they offer IPv6 service yet or is that still something they don't know about? Rogers has had native IPv6 for over 7 years and provided it via 6rd and 6to4 tunnels before that. I get a /56 prefix.
My DSL service has had IPv6 working for years after all.
Yeah, it's something that 3rd party ISPs can provide IPv6 over the same lines that Bell apparently can't. </sarcasm>
I don't think so. My modem is in bridge mode and IPTV works fine. BTW, the modem also provides 2 public IPv4 addresses, 1 on each port. I haven't seen the new ignite TV boxes. I thought they were wifi connected and need some specific SSID. I guess if they can do wired, that would be more reliable (but slightly less flexible in placement). I have had cable boxes for years but that defintely won't be the same on a fiber connection.
No, they can connect with either WiFi, with your choice of SSID, or Ethernet. I used Ethernet.
If they provide a switch I would suspect they give you more than two IPs, or perhasp the switch they provide for 8Gig service is also a router? I wouldn't have thought the ONT did NAT or firewalling.
The cable modem I have has 2 switch ports on the back. If in gateway mode, the two ports share a subnet. If in bridge mode, then they support 2 separate devices, with each having a public IP. On fibre you can also connect your own switch, router or whatever to the ONT. There are no limitations at all.
I'm paying for 100M/30M and I want 100M/30M. Nowadays, everything is AC or AX something. I don't need all that on wireless side, but I want 100M+ on the wired switch side, in case I move to Cable 300/500. Though unlikely since I'm cheap. :-) On 2023-03-08 10:20, Don Tai wrote:
Do you need more than 85M/30M? The DVP is probably capable of 200kph on the straight parts, but we don't need to go that fast..
On Wed, 8 Mar 2023 at 01:10, William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:
Hi all,
I was upgraded (by my ISP) from Cable 75 (75M/10M) to Cable 100 (100M/30M). It turns out my router (Asus RT-N66U) maxes out at 85M/30M. Connecting directly to the modem, I get full 100M/30M.
So, it's time for a new router. It's been long time since I shopped for a router. Which one do you recommend? --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org <mailto:talk@gtalug.org> Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk <https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk>
On 2023-03-08 11:34, William Park via talk wrote:
I'm paying for 100M/30M and I want 100M/30M. Nowadays, everything is AC or AX something. I don't need all that on wireless side, but I want 100M+ on the wired switch side, in case I move to Cable 300/500. Though unlikely since I'm cheap. 😄
I'm paying for 500/30 on Rogers and here's what I got just now. https://www.speedtest.net/result/14450988834
On 2023-03-08 11:56, James Knott via talk wrote:
On 2023-03-08 11:34, William Park via talk wrote:
I'm paying for 100M/30M and I want 100M/30M. Nowadays, everything is AC or AX something. I don't need all that on wireless side, but I want 100M+ on the wired switch side, in case I move to Cable 300/500. Though unlikely since I'm cheap. 😄
I'm paying for 500/30 on Rogers and here's what I got just now.
As I like to point out the Carriers all manipulate traffic to speed test sites to make performance look better. Download an ISO image for your favorite OS and use that as your benchmark. -- Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
On 3/8/23 12:08, Alvin Starr via talk wrote: As I like to point out the Carriers all manipulate traffic to speed test sites to make performance look better. Download an ISO image for your favorite OS and use that as your benchmark. Try using the newest test, at any given time. From bufferbloat.net, the newest is from waveform. My most recent results are as follows. [https://bufferbloat.waveform.com/og_graphics/og-graphic-a+.png] www.waveform.com<http://www.waveform.com> Bufferbloat Test Result: A+ Is bufferbloat causing issues with your internet connection? Want to measure your Internet speed? Run this test 🔗 https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3f9d1f94-a5c8-49fb-9926-2921b80bec85<https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3f9d1f94-a5c8-49fb-9926-2921b80bec85> It's possible to detect a test, of course, by watching to see who has a test and collecting all their IP address ranges ranges, but then you have to have the excess capacity to give them better service than anyone else. All of them! I prefer to use flent, but that's for serious stuff (;-)) --dave -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com<mailto:dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com> | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.
Mine is <https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=366a5b37-ac7f-4c79-a3e3-f2a60175e726> On 2023-03-08 14:05, Dave Collier-Brown via talk wrote:
On 3/8/23 12:08, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
As I like to point out the Carriers all manipulate traffic to speed test sites to make performance look better.
Download an ISO image for your favorite OS and use that as your benchmark.
Try using the newest test, at any given time. From bufferbloat.net, the newest is from waveform. My most recent results are as follows.
www.waveform.com
Bufferbloat Test Result: A+ <#>
Is bufferbloat causing issues with your internet connection? Want to measure your Internet speed? Run this test
🔗 https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3f9d1f94-a5c8-49fb-9926-2... <https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3f9d1f94-a5c8-49fb-9926-2921b80bec85>
It's possible to detect a test, of course, by watching to see who has a test and collecting all their IP address ranges ranges, but then you have to have the excess capacity to give them better service than anyone else. All of them!
I prefer to use flent, but that's for serious stuff (;-))
--dave
-- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain
*/CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER/*/ : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory./
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 2023-03-08 17:04, William Park via talk wrote:
Mine is <https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=366a5b37-ac7f-4c79-a3e3-f2a60175e726>
Here's mine: https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3f9d1f94-a5c8-49fb-9926-2...
3rd party firmware? A number of years ago I got a Linksys E2500 router whose original firmware I blew away in favour of an open source alternative (currently I am running FreshTomato (which is getting regular updates)). Are there currently available new routers where you can install a 3rd party open source OS, such as FreshTomato or some equivalent? On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:09 PM James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2023-03-08 17:04, William Park via talk wrote:
Mine is <https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=366a5b37-ac7f-4c79-a3e3-f2a60175e726>
Here's mine: https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3f9d1f94-a5c8-49fb-9926-2... --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
I'm sure there are more, but Linksys recently released a spiritual successor to the WRT54GL, the router that gave a boost to the development of the 3rd party router OSes (ddwrt, openwrt, tomato). Ability to install open source OSes is even in the marketing material of this new router. https://www.linksys.com/ca/wrt3200acm-ac3200-mu-mimo-gigabit-wi-fi-router/WR...
On Mar 8, 2023, at 19:57, Colin McGregor via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
3rd party firmware?
A number of years ago I got a Linksys E2500 router whose original firmware I blew away in favour of an open source alternative (currently I am running FreshTomato (which is getting regular updates)). Are there currently available new routers where you can install a 3rd party open source OS, such as FreshTomato or some equivalent?
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:09 PM James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2023-03-08 17:04, William Park via talk wrote:
Mine is <https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=366a5b37-ac7f-4c79-a3e3-f2a60175e726>
Here's mine: https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3f9d1f94-a5c8-49fb-9926-2... --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
| From: Alex Kink via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | I'm sure there are more, but Linksys recently released a spiritual successor to the WRT54GL, the router that gave a boost to the development of the 3rd party router OSes (ddwrt, openwrt, tomato). Ability to install open source OSes is even in the marketing material of this new router. | | https://www.linksys.com/ca/wrt3200acm-ac3200-mu-mimo-gigabit-wi-fi-router/WR... I have earlier successors. They are OK. But Linksys didn't go the whole way making things easy for OpenWRT. Historically Linksys has been hostile to open source. Unfortunately, that's true of most of the SoC vendors too. Annecdote: I was a contributor to FreeS/WAN IPSec software for Linux. Linksys released a VPN router with FreeS/WAN. Without telling us and without credit (pertectly legal). They also released it without source (a violation of the license). I knew that it was my code because the manual described a feature that was only implemented in FreeS/WAN. I bought one of those routers and found that the feature was disabled. But I really wanted to use it. So I requested the source code from them. They ignored my request. Eventually they released the source. But not in a buildable form. By that time the product was dead. The hardware never worked reliably for the users. (I never actually tried it because it wasn't going to be useful to me without improved firmware.)
Interesting story! If I recall correctly, the reason why those routers became open enough for third party firmware to be "easily" implementable on them was because Linksys had used some GPL licensed code on them and later ended up releasing the original firmware under outside pressure.
On Mar 9, 2023, at 11:07, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: Alex Kink via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
| I'm sure there are more, but Linksys recently released a spiritual successor to the WRT54GL, the router that gave a boost to the development of the 3rd party router OSes (ddwrt, openwrt, tomato). Ability to install open source OSes is even in the marketing material of this new router. | | https://www.linksys.com/ca/wrt3200acm-ac3200-mu-mimo-gigabit-wi-fi-router/WR...
I have earlier successors. They are OK. But Linksys didn't go the whole way making things easy for OpenWRT.
Historically Linksys has been hostile to open source. Unfortunately, that's true of most of the SoC vendors too.
Annecdote:
I was a contributor to FreeS/WAN IPSec software for Linux.
Linksys released a VPN router with FreeS/WAN. Without telling us and without credit (pertectly legal). They also released it without source (a violation of the license). I knew that it was my code because the manual described a feature that was only implemented in FreeS/WAN.
I bought one of those routers and found that the feature was disabled. But I really wanted to use it.
So I requested the source code from them. They ignored my request.
Eventually they released the source. But not in a buildable form. By that time the product was dead. The hardware never worked reliably for the users. (I never actually tried it because it wasn't going to be useful to me without improved firmware.) --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 2023-03-09 11:07, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
| From: Alex Kink via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
| I'm sure there are more, but Linksys recently released a spiritual successor to the WRT54GL, the router that gave a boost to the development of the 3rd party router OSes (ddwrt, openwrt, tomato). Ability to install open source OSes is even in the marketing material of this new router. | | https://www.linksys.com/ca/wrt3200acm-ac3200-mu-mimo-gigabit-wi-fi-router/WR...
I have earlier successors. They are OK. But Linksys didn't go the whole way making things easy for OpenWRT. For a while Linksys was selling a version of the WRT54 that was specifically for OpenWRT.
So at some point they were not anti-OpenSource. Linksys did get acquired by Cisco around 2005 and Cisco is not OpenSource friendly. Not sure how that timing relates to your story.
Historically Linksys has been hostile to open source. Unfortunately, that's true of most of the SoC vendors too. Always remember. "the key to job security is product obscurity." Making support harder keeps people from making your products last longer. If the products last longer then people will not buy the newer version as quickly and your stock-options may suffer.
Annecdote:
I was a contributor to FreeS/WAN IPSec software for Linux.
Linksys released a VPN router with FreeS/WAN. Without telling us and without credit (pertectly legal). They also released it without source (a violation of the license). I knew that it was my code because the manual described a feature that was only implemented in FreeS/WAN.
I bought one of those routers and found that the feature was disabled. But I really wanted to use it.
So I requested the source code from them. They ignored my request.
Eventually they released the source. But not in a buildable form. By that time the product was dead. The hardware never worked reliably for the users. (I never actually tried it because it wasn't going to be useful to me without improved firmware.) --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
On Thu, 9 Mar 2023 at 11:45, Alvin Starr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
For a while Linksys was selling a version of the WRT54 that was specifically for OpenWRT.
GL.iNet makes routers that use OpenWrt for their firmware. https://www.gl-inet.com/ -- Scott
On Thu, Mar 09, 2023 at 11:45:18AM -0500, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
For a while Linksys was selling a version of the WRT54 that was specifically for OpenWRT.
Well the WRT54G v5 cut the ram in half and put vxworks on it, which ruined performance and upset people so they made a WRT54GL with the original specs and linux again.
So at some point they were not anti-OpenSource. Linksys did get acquired by Cisco around 2005 and Cisco is not OpenSource friendly.
Cisco sold it to Belkin in 2013 and Belkin was bought by Foxcon in 2018.
Always remember. "the key to job security is product obscurity." Making support harder keeps people from making your products last longer. If the products last longer then people will not buy the newer version as quickly and your stock-options may suffer.
Make it too crappy and not last long enough and people won't buy another product from you again. It needs a balance at least as long as you have any compatition. -- Len Sorensen
On Thu, Mar 09, 2023 at 10:02:52AM -0500, Alex Kink via talk wrote:
I'm sure there are more, but Linksys recently released a spiritual successor to the WRT54GL, the router that gave a boost to the development of the 3rd party router OSes (ddwrt, openwrt, tomato). Ability to install open source OSes is even in the marketing material of this new router.
https://www.linksys.com/ca/wrt3200acm-ac3200-mu-mimo-gigabit-wi-fi-router/WR...
That was released in 2016. That's 6 or 7 years ago. It was the follow up to my WRT1900AC. There must be something newer around by now. -- Len Sorensen
Hello, Here is a table of all devices which can at least somewhat run openwrt https://openwrt.org/toh/ I imagine support for other firmwares is probably similar but check their websites. You need to carefully read the pages for any device to find out about problems. Some of them are lacking support for arguably essential features (like Ethernet etc). Click around and search in the openwrt forum to see what problems people are having for s given device. I am slowly transitioning to a set up with seperate router/APs as others have mentioned. I think it is a good idea because in the future it will be more upgradeable. Since none of youse know me I will share that I am a long term novice, hobby type Linux user, not someone working in IT with a lot of skills or even social support for floss. However even I have been able to install and set up openwrt on some devices. As long as you get something that is *completely supported* it is not hard. The people on the forum are really responsive and helpful as long as you show them that you made an effort to solve the problem on your own. The biggest problem I encountered with the project is the docs. The wiki and other documentation can be difficult to navigate. There is a LOT of good info available in there. But it sort of requires you to have some background knowledge to patch together everything you need to know. Beware out of date material mixed in. I also endorse the gli net routers, I have a low end one that I work way too hard and it is trucking along. They come with a version of openwrt + proprietary branding but you can flash it. Another option if you want to experiment cheaply is value village. I have a couple APs made out of tp link routers I got for < $10. Good luck Max On Wed, Mar 8, 2023, at 7:57 PM, Colin McGregor via talk wrote:
3rd party firmware?
A number of years ago I got a Linksys E2500 router whose original firmware I blew away in favour of an open source alternative (currently I am running FreshTomato (which is getting regular updates)). Are there currently available new routers where you can install a 3rd party open source OS, such as FreshTomato or some equivalent?
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 5:09 PM James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2023-03-08 17:04, William Park via talk wrote:
Mine is <https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=366a5b37-ac7f-4c79-a3e3-f2a60175e726>
Here's mine: https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=3f9d1f94-a5c8-49fb-9926-2... --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Wed, Mar 08, 2023 at 05:04:52PM -0500, William Park via talk wrote:
Mine is <https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=366a5b37-ac7f-4c79-a3e3-f2a60175e726>
Well I get an F. I then followed their instructions to add sqm to my openwrt setup, which made it a D, but at a cost of 75% of the throughput (so 6Mbit instead of 25Mbit), so I turned that off again since that was too high a price for a slight latency improvement. Perhaps some tweaking could make it better. -- Len Sorensen
On 3/9/23 09:16, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
On Wed, Mar 08, 2023 at 05:04:52PM -0500, William Park via talk wrote:
Mine is <https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=366a5b37-ac7f-4c79-a3e3-f2a60175e726> Well I get an F. I then followed their instructions to add sqm to my openwrt setup, which made it a D, but at a cost of 75% of the throughput (so 6Mbit instead of 25Mbit), so I turned that off again since that was too high a price for a slight latency improvement. Perhaps some tweaking could make it better.
Yes: the penalty for fq_codel or CAKE should be an indicated percent or so, and often is a benefit instead (:-)). Older software is often bad enough that it eats bandwidth. Look for a openwrt release that mentions one or the other of those keywords, preferably CAKE. There is more information about what code is best. --dave
| From: David Collier-Brown via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | | On 3/9/23 09:16, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote: | > On Wed, Mar 08, 2023 at 05:04:52PM -0500, William Park via talk wrote: | >> Mine is | >> <https://www.waveform.com/tools/bufferbloat?test-id=366a5b37-ac7f-4c79-a3e3-f2a60175e726> | > Well I get an F. I then followed their instructions to add sqm to my | > openwrt setup, which made it a D, but at a cost of 75% of the throughput | > (so 6Mbit instead of 25Mbit), so I turned that off again since that was | > too high a price for a slight latency improvement. Perhaps some tweaking | > could make it better. | > | Yes: the penalty for fq_codel or CAKE should be an indicated percent or so, | and often is a benefit instead (:-)). Older software is often bad enough that | it eats bandwidth. | | Look for a openwrt release that mentions one or the other of those keywords, | preferably CAKE. There is more information about what code is best. Can you explain or point to an explanation about why the reading Lennart is seeing is misleading or not salient? Bufferbloat can occur at many places between the endpoints. Does CAKE on one endpoint try to eliminate BB on the whole path or just the points running it?
On Thu, Mar 09, 2023 at 10:16:02AM -0500, David Collier-Brown via talk wrote:
Yes: the penalty for fq_codel or CAKE should be an indicated percent or so, and often is a benefit instead (:-)). Older software is often bad enough that it eats bandwidth.
Look for a openwrt release that mentions one or the other of those keywords, preferably CAKE. There is more information about what code is best.
Well enabling cake on openwrt using their instructions dropped throughput on the bandwidth test by 75% while improving latency slightly. A much bigger drop than I thought was reasonable. That's on a WRT1900ACv2. -- Len Sorensen
On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 10:56 AM James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2023-03-08 11:34, William Park via talk wrote:
I'm paying for 100M/30M and I want 100M/30M. Nowadays, everything is AC or AX something. I don't need all that on wireless side, but I want 100M+ on the wired switch side, in case I move to Cable 300/500. Though unlikely since I'm cheap. 😄
I'm paying for 500/30 on Rogers and here's what I got just now.
Suggest you use testmy.net - - - in my experience speedtest has been optimized for the provider - - - - so they look real good. Regards
As has been suggested by others break your wifi from your router. I use Sophos on a VM to run my home firewall. Its a nice product but you have to dance around a bit to get a free license. I also have some VMs running OpenWRT. OpenWRT is not the best firewall in the world but can run on a large number of hardware platforms. You can use it to repurpose an existing computer or load onto a network appliance. On 2023-03-08 01:09, William Park via talk wrote:
Hi all,
I was upgraded (by my ISP) from Cable 75 (75M/10M) to Cable 100 (100M/30M). It turns out my router (Asus RT-N66U) maxes out at 85M/30M. Connecting directly to the modem, I get full 100M/30M.
So, it's time for a new router. It's been long time since I shopped for a router. Which one do you recommend? --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
You mean, dedicated access point? The 85M/30M limit is through wired connection to my router. I get the same limit via wireless. That's why, I was thinking to upgrade the router. On 2023-03-08 10:59, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
As has been suggested by others break your wifi from your router.
I use Sophos on a VM to run my home firewall. Its a nice product but you have to dance around a bit to get a free license.
I also have some VMs running OpenWRT. OpenWRT is not the best firewall in the world but can run on a large number of hardware platforms. You can use it to repurpose an existing computer or load onto a network appliance.
On 2023-03-08 01:09, William Park via talk wrote:
Hi all,
I was upgraded (by my ISP) from Cable 75 (75M/10M) to Cable 100 (100M/30M). It turns out my router (Asus RT-N66U) maxes out at 85M/30M. Connecting directly to the modem, I get full 100M/30M.
So, it's time for a new router. It's been long time since I shopped for a router. Which one do you recommend? --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
A separate access point(s) allow you to have a generally better software based router. My various purchases of wifi-firewall/routers over the years have left me generally underwhelmed. On 2023-03-08 11:50, William Park via talk wrote:
You mean, dedicated access point? The 85M/30M limit is through wired connection to my router. I get the same limit via wireless. That's why, I was thinking to upgrade the router.
On 2023-03-08 10:59, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:
As has been suggested by others break your wifi from your router.
I use Sophos on a VM to run my home firewall. Its a nice product but you have to dance around a bit to get a free license.
I also have some VMs running OpenWRT. OpenWRT is not the best firewall in the world but can run on a large number of hardware platforms. You can use it to repurpose an existing computer or load onto a network appliance.
On 2023-03-08 01:09, William Park via talk wrote:
Hi all,
I was upgraded (by my ISP) from Cable 75 (75M/10M) to Cable 100 (100M/30M). It turns out my router (Asus RT-N66U) maxes out at 85M/30M. Connecting directly to the modem, I get full 100M/30M.
So, it's time for a new router. It's been long time since I shopped for a router. Which one do you recommend? --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
On Mar 8, 2023, at 1:09 AM, William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I was upgraded (by my ISP) from Cable 75 (75M/10M) to Cable 100 (100M/30M). It turns out my router (Asus RT-N66U) maxes out at 85M/30M. Connecting directly to the modem, I get full 100M/30M.
So, it's time for a new router. It's been long time since I shopped for a router. Which one do you recommend?
I have a Bell 1gig fibre connection. But you get that speed only if you are connected over wire to the router. I am in an apartment, so I cannot hardwire the router to the room where I actually work from. Using an iperf3 server running on a raspberry pi wired to the Bell router, I ran several tests to see how well clients would work from my work room (same floor). Finally settled on getting this: TP-Link AX1800 WiFi Extender Internet Booster (RE605X) https://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/B08TLM5PRB/ I am only using it wired to a normal switch to make the switch wireless. A hardwired laptop (Mac M2) to this switch is now giving me ~500Mbps, far exceeding direct wifi connection to the Bell router from the laptop. I even tried connecting my previous Unifi Dream Machine to the router (wincing at the double NAT) and measured wifi speeds to that from clients. But even that was inferior to the Tplink wifi6 <->Bell Wifi6 router connection. Very painfully abandoned UDM as an option in this rental. - Sandip
participants (16)
-
Alex Kink -
Alvin Starr -
BCLUG -
bitmap -
Colin McGregor -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Dave Collier-Brown -
David Collier-Brown -
David Mason -
Don Tai -
James Knott -
Lennart Sorensen -
o1bigtenor -
Sandip Bhattacharya -
Scott Allen -
William Park