Dirty Power and Wi Fi Far field effect
I live close to the exhibition grounds which is near to one of the city's major grid switches. For example, they were testing the new streetcars, the ones with three sections for navigating tight turns and they browned us down to (I assume) 50hz. This was visible as all the lights dimmed and the streetcar appeared to navigate the loop a short time later. As I don't have ups I had powered down my tower. The next time I powered up the breaker in the power supply tripped and when I reset it and booted, my 1.5v agp video card was toasted, at least I hope its the card and not elsewhere on the bus. So that's not so bad, there's no enterprise stuff at risk, I just hack together another box and carry on. However, now I have a real problem and I'm in need of a solution. Yesterday I fired up the WiFi while my SO was drying her hair. I toasted her salon quality hair dryer. Not good. :-( There is no gfi outlet and at this point I'm wondering if I need UPS, for the hair dryer, if not the computer. So my question is, does anyone on this list have similar problems and a low cost hack they have used to deal with Toronto's iffy grid. TIA Russell
On 03/13/2015 08:24 AM, Russell Reiter wrote:
I live close to the exhibition grounds which is near to one of the city's major grid switches. For example, they were testing the new streetcars, the ones with three sections for navigating tight turns and they browned us down to (I assume) 50hz. This was visible as all the lights dimmed and the streetcar appeared to navigate the loop a short time later. As I don't have ups I had powered down my tower. The next time I powered up the breaker in the power supply tripped and when I reset it and booted, my 1.5v agp video card was toasted, at least I hope its the card and not elsewhere on the bus.
So that's not so bad, there's no enterprise stuff at risk, I just hack together another box and carry on. However, now I have a real problem and I'm in need of a solution. Yesterday I fired up the WiFi while my SO was drying her hair. I toasted her salon quality hair dryer. Not good. :-( There is no gfi outlet and at this point I'm wondering if I need UPS, for the hair dryer, if not the computer.
So my question is, does anyone on this list have similar problems and a low cost hack they have used to deal with Toronto's iffy grid. TIA Russell
Something seems wrong here. If that's actually happening, there's a problem with the power distribution network and you'd need a TTC power station nearby. Streetcars run on DC, not AC and those stations are used to convert 60 Hz (not 50) to DC. I suspect that power dip was caused by something else. If it was caused by streetcars, you'd see it happening frequently. A UPS is always a good idea, but I really doubt your WiFi damaged the dryer. A GFI outlet protects people against electrical leakage. It does not protect equipment. However, it's a good idea to have one for safety with outlets nears sinks etc.
I'm not sure what happened here but I just replied to Lennart's post and then got James and the others posts on this thread. Toasted tower = New tablet = New learning curve. I see that most don't buy into my theory and in fact I have a hard time with it myself, which is why I posted it to the list. Clean power is important to people, perhaps more so today than at any other time in our development as human society(ies). We tend to think of most of the aspects of technology that we use today to be cut and dried ie. Doctors provide medicine, lawyers provide legal services etc. However, when you read the fine print you find that a person is engaged in a medical or legal practice and I simply extend this postulation to electrical practices. High tension electrical engineering is a quantative and qualitative science. However, there is an almost mystical quality to electricity which only first responding power workers experience first hand. Historically this resulted in many deaths. Science recorded those experiential outcomes and has adjusted it's own theories and practices accordingly. Here is one of my war stories of sustainable development and the grid. I was working as a lead hand in the construction of a recording studio. One of my responsibilities was to ensure the control room was acoustically accurate. ie conforming to specifications. The mixing board was a half million dollars of solid state logic circuit clusters. Ontario Hydro promises +- 3% flux in power but when we tested power on our side of the isolation terminals we were spiking to 7%. Hydro took some time to sort out what the problem was. Turns out that a auto body shop on the same street had wired one leg of its welding unit out of phase and it was sending spikes out all over the place. So instead of directing the owner to wire it correctly, Hydro ran a new clean leg up to our unit. They did it hot and in the rain, kudos to their skills and training. Why, because the cost of using the courts to cause conformity was more expensive than the kludge they actually implemented. So whenever I'm discussing power and someone tells me this is the way it is, I find myself saying, no that is the way it should be. What a thing is and what it should be are two different things. One is a theory and one is a fact. Facts which are uniformly agreed upon are considered to be the status quo. Here is the status quo of north Americas power grid as expressed by a British engineer lo these many decades ago. "North America was wired with a great deal of optimism and little regard for the common earth." So in my mind every poorly grounded home or miswired factory on the load balanced grid is a potential source of problems which are not necessilarly going to manifest themselves in an easily discernable manner. Converting 60hz to 50hz can be done at any point in the grid if the proper equipment is installed and could do a lot to clean up errant spikes which could adversely affect expensive computer controlled equipment. One of the first things a welder learns is how to orient themselves in respect to the unit so they don't cook their liver when they operate the equipment. If a programming environment may be described as an ecosystem, which it often is, can we not also allow for mystical qualities - that some things happen behind the scenes and they may be things of which we, as end users, are not fully aware. One further point. The current state of EM warfare is so advanced that any major municipality who is not hardening its grid is doing a significant disservice to its population. Nothing of what I have said is beyond the possible realm of the current state of things. In fact recently 27 US sailors asked to be relieved of duty after a soviet jet disabled their warship in the black sea. The soviets used an EM weapon to disable all command and control systems and flew simulated attack sorties over the ship till they ran out of file and went home. My theory is that this wired world is not the wired world of even a few years ago. Rußell On Friday, March 13, 2015, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
On 03/13/2015 08:24 AM, Russell Reiter wrote:
I live close to the exhibition grounds which is near to one of the city's major grid switches. For example, they were testing the new streetcars, the ones with three sections for navigating tight turns and they browned us down to (I assume) 50hz. This was visible as all the lights dimmed and the streetcar appeared to navigate the loop a short time later. As I don't have ups I had powered down my tower. The next time I powered up the breaker in the power supply tripped and when I reset it and booted, my 1.5v agp video card was toasted, at least I hope its the card and not elsewhere on the bus.
So that's not so bad, there's no enterprise stuff at risk, I just hack together another box and carry on. However, now I have a real problem and I'm in need of a solution. Yesterday I fired up the WiFi while my SO was drying her hair. I toasted her salon quality hair dryer. Not good. :-( There is no gfi outlet and at this point I'm wondering if I need UPS, for the hair dryer, if not the computer.
So my question is, does anyone on this list have similar problems and a low cost hack they have used to deal with Toronto's iffy grid. TIA Russell
Something seems wrong here. If that's actually happening, there's a problem with the power distribution network and you'd need a TTC power station nearby. Streetcars run on DC, not AC and those stations are used to convert 60 Hz (not 50) to DC. I suspect that power dip was caused by something else. If it was caused by streetcars, you'd see it happening frequently. A UPS is always a good idea, but I really doubt your WiFi damaged the dryer. A GFI outlet protects people against electrical leakage. It does not protect equipment. However, it's a good idea to have one for safety with outlets nears sinks etc.
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Dave Cramer On 14 March 2015 at 09:07, Russell Reiter <rreiter91@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not sure what happened here but I just replied to Lennart's post and then got James and the others posts on this thread. Toasted tower = New tablet = New learning curve.
I see that most don't buy into my theory and in fact I have a hard time with it myself, which is why I posted it to the list. Clean power is important to people, perhaps more so today than at any other time in our development as human society(ies).
Given that most computers now use switching power supplies which are incredibly tolerant of voltage and phase I would like to hear the rationale to the above statement ?
We tend to think of most of the aspects of technology that we use today to be cut and dried ie. Doctors provide medicine, lawyers provide legal services etc. However, when you read the fine print you find that a person is engaged in a medical or legal practice and I simply extend this postulation to electrical practices.
High tension electrical engineering is a quantative and qualitative science. However, there is an almost mystical quality to electricity which only first responding power workers experience first hand. Historically this resulted in many deaths. Science recorded those experiential outcomes and has adjusted it's own theories and practices accordingly.
huh ?
Here is one of my war stories of sustainable development and the grid.
I was working as a lead hand in the construction of a recording studio. One of my responsibilities was to ensure the control room was acoustically accurate. ie conforming to specifications. The mixing board was a half million dollars of solid state logic circuit clusters.
Ontario Hydro promises +- 3% flux in power but when we tested power on our side of the isolation terminals we were spiking to 7%. Hydro took some time to sort out what the problem was. Turns out that a auto body shop on the same street had wired one leg of its welding unit out of phase and it was sending spikes out all over the place. So instead of directing the owner to wire it correctly, Hydro ran a new clean leg up to our unit. They did it hot and in the rain, kudos to their skills and training.
Why, because the cost of using the courts to cause conformity was more expensive than the kludge they actually implemented. So whenever I'm discussing power and someone tells me this is the way it is, I find myself saying, no that is the way it should be.
What a thing is and what it should be are two different things. One is a theory and one is a fact. Facts which are uniformly agreed upon are considered to be the status quo. Here is the status quo of north Americas power grid as expressed by a British engineer lo these many decades ago. "North America was wired with a great deal of optimism and little regard for the common earth."
So in my mind every poorly grounded home or miswired factory on the load balanced grid is a potential source of problems which are not necessilarly going to manifest themselves in an easily discernable manner. Converting 60hz to 50hz can be done at any point in the grid if the proper equipment is installed and could do a lot to clean up errant spikes which could adversely affect expensive computer controlled equipment.
One of the first things a welder learns is how to orient themselves in respect to the unit so they don't cook their liver when they operate the equipment.
Can you explain? What causes their liver to cook ?
If a programming environment may be described as an ecosystem, which it often is, can we not also allow for mystical qualities - that some things happen behind the scenes and they may be things of which we, as end users, are not fully aware.
One further point. The current state of EM warfare is so advanced that any major municipality who is not hardening its grid is doing a significant disservice to its population. Nothing of what I have said is beyond the possible realm of the current state of things.
In fact recently 27 US sailors asked to be relieved of duty after a soviet jet disabled their warship in the black sea. The soviets used an EM weapon to disable all command and control systems and flew simulated attack sorties over the ship till they ran out of file and went home.
reference ?
On Mar 14, 2015 9:50 AM, "Dave Cramer" <davecramer@gmail.com> wrote:
Dave Cramer
On 14 March 2015 at 09:07, Russell Reiter <rreiter91@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not sure what happened here but I just replied to Lennart's post and
then got James and the others posts on this thread. Toasted tower = New tablet = New learning curve.
I see that most don't buy into my theory and in fact I have a hard time
with it myself, which is why I posted it to the list. Clean power is important to people, perhaps more so today than at any other time in our development as human society(ies).
Given that most computers now use switching power supplies which are incredibly tolerant of voltage and phase I would like to hear the rationale to the above statement ?
Near and far field EM effects which don't necessarily pass through the power supplies.
We tend to think of most of the aspects of technology that we use today
High tension electrical engineering is a quantative and qualitative
science. However, there is an almost mystical quality to electricity which only first responding power workers experience first hand. Historically
to be cut and dried ie. Doctors provide medicine, lawyers provide legal services etc. However, when you read the fine print you find that a person is engaged in a medical or legal practice and I simply extend this postulation to electrical practices. this resulted in many deaths. Science recorded those experiential outcomes and has adjusted it's own theories and practices accordingly.
huh ?
Here is one of my war stories of sustainable development and the grid.
I was working as a lead hand in the construction of a recording studio.
One of my responsibilities was to ensure the control room was acoustically accurate. ie conforming to specifications. The mixing board was a half million dollars of solid state logic circuit clusters.
Ontario Hydro promises +- 3% flux in power but when we tested power on
our side of the isolation terminals we were spiking to 7%. Hydro took some time to sort out what the problem was. Turns out that a auto body shop on
Why, because the cost of using the courts to cause conformity was more
expensive than the kludge they actually implemented. So whenever I'm discussing power and someone tells me this is the way it is, I find myself saying, no that is the way it should be.
What a thing is and what it should be are two different things. One is a
Sorry I don't understand your question mark, please elaborate. the same street had wired one leg of its welding unit out of phase and it was sending spikes out all over the place. So instead of directing the owner to wire it correctly, Hydro ran a new clean leg up to our unit. They did it hot and in the rain, kudos to their skills and training. theory and one is a fact. Facts which are uniformly agreed upon are considered to be the status quo. Here is the status quo of north Americas power grid as expressed by a British engineer lo these many decades ago. "North America was wired with a great deal of optimism and little regard for the common earth."
So in my mind every poorly grounded home or miswired factory on the load
balanced grid is a potential source of problems which are not necessilarly going to manifest themselves in an easily discernable manner. Converting 60hz to 50hz can be done at any point in the grid if the proper equipment is installed and could do a lot to clean up errant spikes which could adversely affect expensive computer controlled equipment.
One of the first things a welder learns is how to orient themselves in
respect to the unit so they don't cook their liver when they operate the equipment.
Can you explain? What causes their liver to cook?
If you stand directly between the power unit and the anode an interference field is set up and heats the magnetite present in every living human cell. Ask any certified welder, they know the best practices, although they not be in full understanding of the physics involved.
If a programming environment may be described as an ecosystem, which it
One further point. The current state of EM warfare is so advanced that
any major municipality who is not hardening its grid is doing a significant disservice to its population. Nothing of what I have said is beyond the
often is, can we not also allow for mystical qualities - that some things happen behind the scenes and they may be things of which we, as end users, are not fully aware. possible realm of the current state of things.
In fact recently 27 US sailors asked to be relieved of duty after a
soviet jet disabled their warship in the black sea. The soviets used an EM weapon to disable all command and control systems and flew simulated attack sorties over the ship till they ran out of file and went home.
reference ?
I found the story on a news aggregation service. AP or RT. If you can't find the info using key words Email me and I'll go through my history files for you, although I do delete stuff regularly and I can't remember if that data is on my now, temporarily (I hope) toasted tower.
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Here's a link to killing hair dryers with with wifi. https://defcon.org/images/defcon-22/dc-22-presentations/Jauregui/DEFCON-22-M... Here's a link to the back sea incident. From my perspective, its a battle for information. Who's military industrial complex do you believe in. US or Soviet. http://www.defanse.com/rusia/uss-donald-cook-versus-duel-su-24-russia On Mar 14, 2015 10:17 AM, "Russell Reiter" <rreiter91@gmail.com> wrote:
On Mar 14, 2015 9:50 AM, "Dave Cramer" <davecramer@gmail.com> wrote:
Dave Cramer
On 14 March 2015 at 09:07, Russell Reiter <rreiter91@gmail.com> wrote:
I'm not sure what happened here but I just replied to Lennart's post
I see that most don't buy into my theory and in fact I have a hard
time with it myself, which is why I posted it to the list. Clean power is important to people, perhaps more so today than at any other time in our development as human society(ies).
Given that most computers now use switching power supplies which are incredibly tolerant of voltage and phase I would like to hear the rationale to the above statement ?
Near and far field EM effects which don't necessarily pass through the
and then got James and the others posts on this thread. Toasted tower = New tablet = New learning curve. power supplies.
We tend to think of most of the aspects of technology that we use
High tension electrical engineering is a quantative and qualitative
science. However, there is an almost mystical quality to electricity which only first responding power workers experience first hand. Historically
huh ?
Sorry I don't understand your question mark, please elaborate.
Here is one of my war stories of sustainable development and the grid.
I was working as a lead hand in the construction of a recording
studio. One of my responsibilities was to ensure the control room was acoustically accurate. ie conforming to specifications. The mixing board was a half million dollars of solid state logic circuit clusters.
Ontario Hydro promises +- 3% flux in power but when we tested power on
our side of the isolation terminals we were spiking to 7%. Hydro took some time to sort out what the problem was. Turns out that a auto body shop on
Why, because the cost of using the courts to cause conformity was more
expensive than the kludge they actually implemented. So whenever I'm discussing power and someone tells me this is the way it is, I find myself saying, no that is the way it should be.
What a thing is and what it should be are two different things. One is
a theory and one is a fact. Facts which are uniformly agreed upon are considered to be the status quo. Here is the status quo of north Americas
So in my mind every poorly grounded home or miswired factory on the
load balanced grid is a potential source of problems which are not necessilarly going to manifest themselves in an easily discernable manner. Converting 60hz to 50hz can be done at any point in the grid if the proper equipment is installed and could do a lot to clean up errant spikes which could adversely affect expensive computer controlled equipment.
One of the first things a welder learns is how to orient themselves in
respect to the unit so they don't cook their liver when they operate the equipment.
Can you explain? What causes their liver to cook?
If you stand directly between the power unit and the anode an interference field is set up and heats the magnetite present in every
today to be cut and dried ie. Doctors provide medicine, lawyers provide legal services etc. However, when you read the fine print you find that a person is engaged in a medical or legal practice and I simply extend this postulation to electrical practices. this resulted in many deaths. Science recorded those experiential outcomes and has adjusted it's own theories and practices accordingly. the same street had wired one leg of its welding unit out of phase and it was sending spikes out all over the place. So instead of directing the owner to wire it correctly, Hydro ran a new clean leg up to our unit. They did it hot and in the rain, kudos to their skills and training. power grid as expressed by a British engineer lo these many decades ago. "North America was wired with a great deal of optimism and little regard for the common earth." living human cell. Ask any certified welder, they know the best practices, although they not be in full understanding of the physics involved.
If a programming environment may be described as an ecosystem, which
One further point. The current state of EM warfare is so advanced that
any major municipality who is not hardening its grid is doing a significant disservice to its population. Nothing of what I have said is beyond the
it often is, can we not also allow for mystical qualities - that some things happen behind the scenes and they may be things of which we, as end users, are not fully aware. possible realm of the current state of things.
In fact recently 27 US sailors asked to be relieved of duty after a
soviet jet disabled their warship in the black sea. The soviets used an EM weapon to disable all command and control systems and flew simulated attack sorties over the ship till they ran out of file and went home.
reference ?
I found the story on a news aggregation service. AP or RT. If you can't find the info using key words Email me and I'll go through my history files for you, although I do delete stuff regularly and I can't remember if that data is on my now, temporarily (I hope) toasted tower.
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On 2015-03-14 08:00, Russell Reiter wrote:
Here's a link to the back sea incident. [snip] http://www.defanse.com/rusia/uss-donald-cook-versus-duel-su-24-russia
It would have been an interesting article to read if it had been better written. That article must have been written by someone who does not have English as their primary language. It was so badly written I gave up after reading a few bits of it. Even the website domain has "defanse" which may be the word "defence" in another language. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
True enough it was badly translated. It was one link of many I just now sourced using key words. Obviously US mil says one thing, Soviet says another. There are sufficient diverse reports from various news sources that a person may be able to come to their own conclusions, if they are trying to formulate an informed opinion. I'd just like to say that it is not my practice to just spew uninformed rhetoric, although to the uniniated it may look like that is exactly what I appear to do. I raise questions which interest me and which I spend time trying to find reasonable explanations for. I do this by exposing my own experiential outcomes to discussion, on this list and elsewhere. Notwithstanding that I am a lousy speller myself, I'm not going to discount an opinion just because of bad English. In this world of diversity, the sovereigns English can take a back seat to informed ideas any day of the week. On Saturday, March 14, 2015, kcozens <kcozens@ve3syb.ca> wrote:
On 2015-03-14 08:00, Russell Reiter wrote:
Here's a link to the back sea incident.
[snip]
http://www.defanse.com/rusia/uss-donald-cook-versus-duel-su-24-russia
It would have been an interesting article to read if it had been better written. That article must have been written by someone who does not have English as their primary language. It was so badly written I gave up after reading a few bits of it. Even the website domain has "defanse" which may be the word "defence" in another language.
--
Cheers!
Kevin.
http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
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On 03/14/2015 11:00 AM, Russell Reiter wrote:
Here's a link to killing hair dryers with with wifi.
https://defcon.org/images/defcon-22/dc-22-presentations/Jauregui/DEFCON-22-M...
After glancing through that, it doesn't strike me as a credible source.
Actually it does look credible. But we're not talking about a Wi-Fi router in the next room... more like a 50cm directional antenna with a custom RF circuit. But with that, it appears you can incite the coil in a GFCI-equipped hair dryer (one that has a very large plug) to fire (and destroy it's GFCI capability in the process). ../Dave On 14 March 2015 at 16:33, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
On 03/14/2015 11:00 AM, Russell Reiter wrote:
Here's a link to killing hair dryers with with wifi.
https://defcon.org/images/defcon-22/dc-22-presentations/Jauregui/DEFCON-22-M...
After glancing through that, it doesn't strike me as a credible source.
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On 03/14/2015 10:17 AM, Russell Reiter wrote:
Near and far field EM effects which don't necessarily pass through the power supplies.
You keep on proving your ignorance. Electronic devices, including computers, have lots of filtering to prevent RF from entering or leaving the device. Peter Hiscocks is on this list. Perhaps you should run your ideas past him. He's an engineer and, IIRC, used to teach at Ryerson. I also studied Electrical Engineering at Ryerson and have many years experience in the telecommunications and computer fields.
On Saturday, March 14, 2015, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
On 03/14/2015 10:17 AM, Russell Reiter wrote:
Near and far field EM effects which don't necessarily pass through the power supplies.
You keep on proving your ignorance. Electronic devices, including computers, have lots of filtering to prevent RF from entering or leaving the device.
Really? How about providing me with the list of filtering devices on my computer?
Peter Hiscocks is on this list. Perhaps you should run your ideas past
him. He's an engineer and, IIRC, used to teach at Ryerson. I also studied Electrical Engineering at Ryerson and have many years experience in the telecommunications and computer fields.
Ahh such is life, in a world of free and open thinking I'm directed to experts, some of whom I have knowledge of and respect for and those I don't.
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On 03/14/2015 08:41 PM, Russell Reiter wrote:
Really? How about providing me with the list of filtering devices on my computer?
Well, you can start with the ferrite chokes that are on many power cords. Then look at all the capacitors in the power supplies and on the circuit boards. The bigger ones are to help maintain the DC voltage. The smaller ones are there to reduce high frequency noise. There is also shielding to block RF in both directions.
On Sat 14 Mar 2015 10:17 -0400, Russell Reiter wrote:
One of the first things a welder learns is how to orient themselves in respect to the unit so they don't cook their liver when they operate the equipment.
Can you explain? What causes their liver to cook?
If you stand directly between the power unit and the anode an interference field is set up and heats the magnetite present in every living human cell. Ask any certified welder, they know the best practices, although they not be in full understanding of the physics involved.
Any references regarding this interference field and its effects? I found some mention of problems with pacemakers which seems reasonable. I'm curious about other effects or complications though. Also the magnetite present in every living human cell? Thanks
The reference to magnitite dates back to high biology from the seventies for me, although I did find one rather obscure video where the researcher refers to this effect. If I can find the link I'll post it. As for WHIMIS for welders you should be able to find plenty of info on that. Don't have any handy links at this time. On Saturday, March 14, 2015, Loui Chang <louipc.ist@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat 14 Mar 2015 10:17 -0400, Russell Reiter wrote:
One of the first things a welder learns is how to orient themselves iny respect to the unit so they don't cook their liver when they operate the equipment.
Can you explain? What causes their liver to cook?
If you stand directly between the power unit and the anode an interference field is set up and heats the magnetite present in every living human cell. Ask any certified welder, they know the best practices, although they not be in full understanding of the physics involved.
Any references regarding this interference field and its effects? I found some mention of problems with pacemakers which seems reasonable. I'm curious about other effects or complications though.
Also the magnetite present in every living human cell? Thanks
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On 03/14/2015 09:07 AM, Russell Reiter wrote:
Converting 60hz to 50hz can be done at any point in the grid if the proper equipment is installed and could do a lot to clean up errant spikes which could adversely affect expensive computer controlled equipment.
Where do you dig up this nonsense? The only way to convert 60 Hz to 50 is with a device designed to do that. Years ago, that meant rotary converters, that is a motor tied directly to an alternator, with the appropriate number of poles to do the power conversion. These days, electronic converters can be used to do the same thing and with better frequency accuracy. If anyone tried to drag the power line frequency down to 50 Hz, they may get a visit from the power utility.
One further point. The current state of EM warfare is so advanced that any major municipality who is not hardening its grid is doing a significant disservice to its population. Nothing of what I have said is beyond the possible realm of the current state of things.
Electronic warfare generally take significantly more power than you'd find in WiFi.
My theory is that this wired world is not the wired world of even a few years ago.
The power distribution network hasn't changed that much in several years.
In case you didn't get it, it was the utilities who installed the equipment and they are testing it now. I live next door to the test bed and I experience the effects. On Saturday, March 14, 2015, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
On 03/14/2015 09:07 AM, Russell Reiter wrote:
Converting 60hz to 50hz can be done at any point in the grid if the proper equipment is installed and could do a lot to clean up errant spikes which could adversely affect expensive computer controlled equipment.
Where do you dig up this nonsense? The only way to convert 60 Hz to 50 is with a device designed to do that. Years ago, that meant rotary converters, that is a motor tied directly to an alternator, with the appropriate number of poles to do the power conversion. These days, electronic converters can be used to do the same thing and with better frequency accuracy. If anyone tried to drag the power line frequency down to 50 Hz, they may get a visit from the power utility.
One further point. The current state of EM warfare is so advanced that any major municipality who is not hardening its grid is doing a significant disservice to its population. Nothing of what I have said is beyond the possible realm of the current state of things.
Electronic warfare generally take significantly more power than you'd find in WiFi.
Really? What kind of power are you talking about and how is it implemented in electronic warfare?
My theory is that this wired world is not the wired world of even a few years ago.
The power distribution network hasn't changed that much in several years.
Don't be a dope, the power distribution network has been a significant military target for decades. If you don't think people are working constantly in order to harden it from being compromised, well I don't know what else to say but open your mind a bit, you might actually like the light that shines in.
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On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 08:24:38AM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote:
I live close to the exhibition grounds which is near to one of the city's major grid switches. For example, they were testing the new streetcars, the ones with three sections for navigating tight turns and they browned us down to (I assume) 50hz. This was visible as all the lights dimmed and the streetcar appeared to navigate the loop a short time later. As I don't have ups I had powered down my tower. The next time I powered up the breaker in the power supply tripped and when I reset it and booted, my 1.5v agp video card was toasted, at least I hope its the card and not elsewhere on the bus.
Changing the frequency of the power grid is VERY hard. Dropping the voltage (which is a brownout) is easy. So no way did yo udrop to 50 Hz. A few years ago a mejor mess in europe caused the grid there to split into 3 parts, running at 48, 50 and 52Hz respectively, due to severe imbalance in the network, and the frequencies could only be different because the grid completely split. So to drop the frequency to 50Hz in Toronto would require changing the frequency of a very large part of the grid in north america. Not going to happen.
So that's not so bad, there's no enterprise stuff at risk, I just hack together another box and carry on. However, now I have a real problem and I'm in need of a solution. Yesterday I fired up the WiFi while my SO was drying her hair. I toasted her salon quality hair dryer. Not good. :-( There is no gfi outlet and at this point I'm wondering if I need UPS, for the hair dryer, if not the computer.
Unless your area has serious transformer issues, you should not have voltage swings that could damage a hair druer.
So my question is, does anyone on this list have similar problems and a low cost hack they have used to deal with Toronto's iffy grid.
-- Len Sorensen
On Fri, Mar 13, 2015 at 08:24:38AM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote:
I live close to the exhibition grounds which is near to one of the city's major grid switches. For example, they were testing the new streetcars, the ones with three sections for navigating tight turns and they browned us down to (I assume) 50hz. This was visible as all the lights dimmed and the streetcar appeared to navigate the loop a short time later. As I don't have ups I had powered down my tower. The next time I powered up the breaker in the power supply tripped and when I reset it and booted, my 1.5v agp video card was toasted, at least I hope its the card and not elsewhere on the bus.
Changing the frequency of the power grid is VERY hard. Dropping the voltage (which is a brownout) is easy.
Yeah, I agree. Frequency isn't likely to change. It depends on the rate of rotation of massive generators in the Adam Beck generating station, for one thing. And the whole system is locked together, as Lennart points out. If you have access to the fuse or circuit box, I'd recommend measuring the voltage at that point, then at the hair dryer outlet. There might be a marginal connection somewhere that is dropping the voltage. Don't open up the distribution box unless you are an electrician, electrical engineer or immortal. There are lethal voltages and currents inside. War story: Years ago I worked one summer as the effects guy at the Red Barn Theatre in Jackson's Point. We had a three phase lighting board and the power coming into the barn was two phase. So I checked with my power engineering colleague and he confirmed it was OK to put two phases of the lighting board on one side of the power and one phase on the other side, and then to be a bit careful about the loading. This worked well all through the rehearsal period. Then, at the opening night reception, where everyone is in formal wear and eating tiny pieces of fish, all of sudden every light in the place goes out. Of course, everyone looks at me. So I go down to the distribution box with my voltmeter, trailed by about 10 people, and measure the power at the entry point, before the master switch and fuses. No input power. So I say 'Not our problem, the Hydro is down.' Of course, nobody believes me and there is some mutinous muttering. So I go down to the road to see if I can see anything and in the distance, I can see flashing red lights. Turns out some drunk had taken out a hydro pole. Fortunately, the Hydro guys had it back up and running in a matter of minutes. That was a nervous few minutes... P. -- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325
On 13 March 2015 at 16:01, <phiscock@ee.ryerson.ca> wrote:
Don't open up the distribution box unless you are an electrician, electrical engineer or immortal. There are lethal voltages and currents inside.
A single AAA cell can potentially provide lethal currents. It's the high voltage in the box that allows a lethal amount of current to flow through the relatively high resistance of your skin. -- Scott
On 13 March 2015 at 16:29, Scott Allen <mlxxxp@gmail.com> wrote:
On 13 March 2015 at 16:01, <phiscock@ee.ryerson.ca> wrote:
Don't open up the distribution box unless you are an electrician, electrical engineer or immortal. There are lethal voltages and currents inside.
A single AAA cell can potentially provide lethal currents. It's the high voltage in the box that allows a lethal amount of current to flow through the relatively high resistance of your skin.
Explain that to me. How can an AAA cell provide lethal current? Dave
On 13 March 2015 at 16:32, Dave Cramer <davecramer@gmail.com> wrote:
Explain that to me. How can an AAA cell provide lethal current?
Use two metal needles to pierce your skin on opposite sides of your heart. Hook up the positive terminal of the cell to one needle and the negative terminal to the other needle. -- Scott
<snip previous> Changing the frequency of the power grid is VERY hard. Dropping the voltage (which is a brownout) is easy.
So no way did yo udrop to 50 Hz. A few years ago a mejor mess in europe
caused the grid there to split into 3 parts, running at 48, 50 and 52Hz respectively, due to severe imbalance in the network, and the frequencies could only be different because the grid completely split. So to drop the frequency to 50Hz in Toronto would require changing the frequency of a very large part of the grid in north america. Not going to happen.
What do you mean by completely split? Split as in; now separate grids or split by isolation terminals, firewalls if you will.
Toronto's polyphase grid is a clusterfuck as it is implemented today. For myself, I don't see hydro dropping voltage on two legs of the residential grid in order to test a highly computerized streetcar.
I can see them frequency stepping the power at the isolation nodes of the CNE grounds before converting to DC power. You don't have to touch the whole grid, just the parts attached to the DC inverter. Kind of a pre-wash cycle in power laundry.
Hydro is working all over the city to rectify some of the more serious load balancing issues generated by considerabble over optisim in the effective technology of the day the grid was built. I guess this is to stimulate investor confidence before selling the whole dog and pony show to someone else.
So that's not so bad, there's no enterprise stuff at risk, I just hack
together another box and carry on. However, now I have a real problem and I'm in need of a solution. Yesterday I fired up the WiFi while my SO was drying her hair. I toasted her salon quality hair dryer. Not good. :-( There is no gfi outlet and at this point I'm wondering if I need UPS, for the hair dryer, if not the computer.
Unless your area has serious transformer issues, you should not have voltage swings that could damage a hair druer.
It was the multiple wi fi fields generated when I fired up several devices concurrently which i think toasted the hair dryer. This is a known effect. I have since found out that it is only modern gfi outlets which have sensitivity enough in their measurements of the scope of the surge to counter this effect. Older units in fact can compound it. Ups for a hair dryer was my joke of the day.
So my question is, does anyone on this list have similar problems and a low
cost hack they have used to deal with Toronto's iffy grid.
-- Len Sorensen --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org <javascript:;> http://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 03/14/2015 06:57 AM, Russell Reiter wrote:
Toronto's polyphase grid is a clusterfuck as it is implemented today. For myself, I don't see hydro dropping voltage on two legs of the residential grid in order to test a highly computerized streetcar.
I can see them frequency stepping the power at the isolation nodes of the CNE grounds before converting to DC power. You don't have to touch the whole grid, just the parts attached to the DC inverter. Kind of a pre-wash cycle in power laundry.
I don't know where you get your ideas, but an inverter is used to convert DC to AC. A rectifier is used to convert AC to DC.
It was the multiple wi fi fields generated when I fired up several devices concurrently which i think toasted the hair dryer. This is a known effect. I have since found out that it is only modern gfi outlets which have sensitivity enough in their measurements of the scope of the surge to counter this effect. Older units in fact can compound it.
Now you're talking nonsense. If WiFi has any effect on a GFI, it would cause it to trip, killing the power to the dryer. It is simply not capable of damaging it. WiFi runs at about the same frequency as a microwave oven. If it was transmitting enough power to damage a hair dryer, it would also be enough power to cook you! Do you even know what a Ground Fault Interupter (GFI) does? It detects when the current in the hot & neutral wires does not balance, indicating a possibly hazardous leakage. It then interrupts the power to remove the hazard. That is all it does. It cannot damage a hair dryer, WiFi fields or not.
I think you misread my original post. I don't have gfi in my unit at all. Also I use the term inversion to indicate generic change of statefullness. Rectify is the proper term for AC to DC, I stand corrected. However as I said it was wi fi which I believe took out the hair dryer. This is a known and recorded type of event on the North American power grid. There was a presentation on this at defcon last year. Please remember there are a lot of volunteer researchers working on this as we speak. I live in one of the oldest parts of the city and very close to major switching facilities, so my experiential outcomes are going to be different than others on the same grid. That is unless you are my neighbour and we share the same node of the grid. On Saturday, March 14, 2015, James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
On 03/14/2015 06:57 AM, Russell Reiter wrote:
Toronto's polyphase grid is a clusterfuck as it is implemented today. For myself, I don't see hydro dropping voltage on two legs of the residential grid in order to test a highly computerized streetcar.
I can see them frequency stepping the power at the isolation nodes of the CNE grounds before converting to DC power. You don't have to touch the whole grid, just the parts attached to the DC inverter. Kind of a pre-wash cycle in power laundry.
I don't know where you get your ideas, but an inverter is used to convert DC to AC. A rectifier is used to convert AC to DC.
It was the multiple wi fi fields generated when I fired up several devices concurrently which i think toasted the hair dryer. This is a known effect. I have since found out that it is only modern gfi outlets which have sensitivity enough in their measurements of the scope of the surge to counter this effect. Older units in fact can compound it.
Now you're talking nonsense. If WiFi has any effect on a GFI, it would cause it to trip, killing the power to the dryer. It is simply not capable of damaging it. WiFi runs at about the same frequency as a microwave oven. If it was transmitting enough power to damage a hair dryer, it would also be enough power to cook you!
Do you even know what a Ground Fault Interupter (GFI) does? It detects when the current in the hot & neutral wires does not balance, indicating a possibly hazardous leakage. It then interrupts the power to remove the hazard. That is all it does. It cannot damage a hair dryer, WiFi fields or not.
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On 03/14/2015 09:32 AM, Russell Reiter wrote:
However as I said it was wi fi which I believe took out the hair dryer. This is a known and recorded type of event on the North American power grid.
Just consider the power levels involved. A hair dryer is typically a hundred watts or more. WiFi is a small fraction of a watt. There's absolutely no way a WiFi access point can generate enough power to damage a hair dryer.
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 06:57:49AM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote:
What do you mean by completely split? Split as in; now separate grids or split by isolation terminals, firewalls if you will.
Some very big interconnects disconnected due to overloading. This left the grid in three isolated parts, one with over supply, one with under supply and one that was pretty well balanced on its own. It was all triggered by a misconfigured main link where one end had different limits configured than the other end, so one end thought shutting down a parallel line would be fine, but the other end tripped due to misconfigured limits for the line, which then dropped all the load on yet other lines, which then tripped, and bye bye grid. Fortunately it only took about 45 minutes to restore everything.
Toronto's polyphase grid is a clusterfuck as it is implemented today. For myself, I don't see hydro dropping voltage on two legs of the residential grid in order to test a highly computerized streetcar.
I can see them frequency stepping the power at the isolation nodes of the CNE grounds before converting to DC power. You don't have to touch the whole grid, just the parts attached to the DC inverter. Kind of a pre-wash cycle in power laundry.
Hydro is working all over the city to rectify some of the more serious load balancing issues generated by considerabble over optisim in the effective technology of the day the grid was built. I guess this is to stimulate investor confidence before selling the whole dog and pony show to someone else.
Well I suppose that with the main distribution being 3 phase power, but only running 2 phase power in residential areas (which I believe is generated by transformers from just 1 of the 3 phases in the main distribution, called I believe split phase, using a centre tap to ground to give the 2 phases, 180 degrees apart), does result in a potentially quite unbalanced grid, where the 3 phases could get rather out of balance. I have no idea if this really results in a big load imballance problem in general, or not.
It was the multiple wi fi fields generated when I fired up several devices concurrently which i think toasted the hair dryer. This is a known effect. I have since found out that it is only modern gfi outlets which have sensitivity enough in their measurements of the scope of the surge to counter this effect. Older units in fact can compound it. Ups for a hair dryer was my joke of the day.
gfi is ground fault interrupter after all, so anything other than a short to ground is not supposed to trigger them, while even a trivial amount of power going to ground should trigger it instantly. -- Len Sorensen
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 07:32:22PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
Some very big interconnects disconnected due to overloading. This left the grid in three isolated parts, one with over supply, one with under supply and one that was pretty well balanced on its own.
It was all triggered by a misconfigured main link where one end had different limits configured than the other end, so one end thought shutting down a parallel line would be fine, but the other end tripped due to misconfigured limits for the line, which then dropped all the load on yet other lines, which then tripped, and bye bye grid. Fortunately it only took about 45 minutes to restore everything.
If interested, read this: http://nuclearpoweryesplease.org/blog/2008/12/13/the-day-wind-power-nearly-b... -- Len Sorensen
On 2015-03-14 07:37 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
If interested, read this: http://nuclearpoweryesplease.org/blog/2008/12/13/the-day-wind-power-nearly-b...
Hmm, though that’s reported through a very ‘lolwindpower’ filter. Perhaps a more balanced summary is http://www.euractiv.com/energy/german-energy-giant-blamed-power-failure/arti..., which describes the situation as: 1) E.ON Netz has a request to de-energize a major power line at a certain time to let an unusually large ship pass underneath. The grid operator does a simplistic calculation to show that it’s okay if all contingency transmission is available. Neighbouring transmission authorities are alerted, as is normal procedure. 2) The ship is delayed, and so is the downtime. E.ON Netz considers that the new proposed time will be better for them, so without any further analysis or consultation with neighbouring transmission authorities, goes ahead with the delayed downtime. 3) The other transmission authorities see large frequency instabilities, and try to get E.ON Netz to restore the de-energized line. They can’t do this, so they call upon a contingency transmission station to switch the load. The TX station (rather aptly named Borken) is under maintenance, so the bridging/switching fails. 4) In Germany, most wind power facilities are ‘must run’, so on a windy night their output ramps up. This seems more of a failure of grid protection and control (P&C) to signal the wind facilities to curtail them off in an abnormal grid situation. The ENTSO-E report further castigates E.ON Netz for failing to require suitable P&C on wind facilities in their area. The main report is as interesting as any network failure postmortem could ever be: https://www.entsoe.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/_library/publications/ce/otherre... cheers, Stewart
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 09:09:12PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell wrote:
Hmm, though that’s reported through a very ‘lolwindpower’ filter. Perhaps a more balanced summary is http://www.euractiv.com/energy/german-energy-giant-blamed-power-failure/arti..., which describes the situation as:
Yeah that is actually not a very good article on it. The one I originally read was in a magazine for power companies, which was much more detailed.
1) E.ON Netz has a request to de-energize a major power line at a certain time to let an unusually large ship pass underneath. The grid operator does a simplistic calculation to show that it’s okay if all contingency transmission is available. Neighbouring transmission authorities are alerted, as is normal procedure.
2) The ship is delayed, and so is the downtime. E.ON Netz considers that the new proposed time will be better for them, so without any further analysis or consultation with neighbouring transmission authorities, goes ahead with the delayed downtime.
3) The other transmission authorities see large frequency instabilities, and try to get E.ON Netz to restore the de-energized line. They can’t do this, so they call upon a contingency transmission station to switch the load. The TX station (rather aptly named Borken) is under maintenance, so the bridging/switching fails.
4) In Germany, most wind power facilities are ‘must run’, so on a windy night their output ramps up. This seems more of a failure of grid protection and control (P&C) to signal the wind facilities to curtail them off in an abnormal grid situation. The ENTSO-E report further castigates E.ON Netz for failing to require suitable P&C on wind facilities in their area.
It certainly was a number of things done wrong. Hopefully they have learned something from it.
The main report is as interesting as any network failure postmortem could ever be: https://www.entsoe.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/_library/publications/ce/otherre...
That is much better than the link I found first, which had a very serious bias problem. -- Len Sorensen
On 2015-03-14 07:32 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
I have no idea if this really results in a big load imballance problem in general, or not.
It does require a little bit of care in planning to make sure the loads on all of the phases are reasonably well balanced, but isn't a huge problem. You might want to avoid large inductive loads on one branch, though. The Strachan switchyard near where the OP lives is under huge load with all the new condos nearby. I wouldn't be at all surprised if its power quality wasn't quite to standard. cheers, Stewart
OK this reminds me of another war story from my lifes experiential outcomes and the wired grid. I was sitting in a friends apartment one dark and stormy night when I noticed severe sparking from the overhead power lines. Now I'm not an alarmist and after several decades working in sustainable development I have developed certain commnication skills and I convinced dispatch that this was excessive sparking so they sent out TFD. Now what I hadn't told dispatch was that my concern was based on the knowledge that this particular building had two loads coming into it, one for one municipal address and one for the one we were in. The caveat: the developer had severed the power to the other address. So what is the issue you say. All the copper grounding throughout the building. You recall a previous comment on ground and optimisim I made. Also this was around the time all the downtown electrical leaks were happening. So TFD showed up, I related my concerns and was received with skeptisim and disbelief by the crew. That is until they got a call to a house a block away about the power being out. So I went over with them to see the cause of the outage. It's one thing for the connections to sever at the tap and fall to the ground than it is the other way round. Obviously one feeds the wet ground with current, the other doesn't. Ask any worm picker why they plug a 12v car battery into the ground after a rainstorm and they'll tell you they tickle the worms to the surface. So at this point in the tale you are left with the same questions the fire department had, what did one event have to do with the other. Well we reverse engineered the time of my call and the time of the other call to figure the arcing from the service wires to the trees in front of my friends apt happened at approximately the same time. How does copper ground wires throughout a two story house factor in. Well think of delta confiuration on a balanced polyphased distribution grid. All those above ground copper tendrils acted as a homing beacon for the wave which was trying to find it's way home via a center tap. It wasn't traveling from the service to the trees, it was traveling from the ground to the center tap via the trees. The fire department guys couldn't figure out how Ontario Hydro got to the second call before they did. The first response crew got their yuks at the expense of the second crew, snowing them about who I was and what I was doing there. I kept my mouth shut, either you have enough grounded knowledge to know what is possible or you don't. For myself, I'm always exploring what I don't know and this is what makes hacking fun for me. FTW means fix the world, not fuck the world. So I fix what I can and ask for help with the rest. Close to twenty years on this list and I've learned a lot and helped a little, at least that's what I hope for, but it is what it is as they say. For those who don't send my posts to /dev/null I'll have an update on MP bios follies and the fate of the Toshiba satellite Peter gave me. The issue is whether to use an inductive or a deductive solution after trashing the HD by using it as a case thermometer. Peace out. Russell On Saturday, March 14, 2015, Stewart C. Russell <scruss@gmail.com> wrote:
On 2015-03-14 07:32 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
I have no idea if this really results in a big load imballance problem in general, or not.
It does require a little bit of care in planning to make sure the loads on all of the phases are reasonably well balanced, but isn't a huge problem. You might want to avoid large inductive loads on one branch, though.
The Strachan switchyard near where the OP lives is under huge load with all the new condos nearby. I wouldn't be at all surprised if its power quality wasn't quite to standard.
cheers, Stewart
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On 2015-03-14 19:05, Russell Reiter wrote:
FTW means fix the world, not fuck the world.
As a side note to the discussion, the meaning of FTW that I see most if For The Win. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
From about.com <http://netforbeginners.about.com/od/f/f/What-Is-FTW-for-the-Win.htm>:
"In 2014, the most common meaning of 'FTW' is 'for the win', an internet cheer used to express general enthusiasm. [...] Years ago, 'FTW' used to have a very negative meaning: 'f**k the world'. This was a term commonly used by social rebels, anarchists and anti-authoritarian types to express frustration with modern society. Gratefully, this antisocial meaning has dramatically faded in use in the 21st century, and people now use 'for the win' as a modern cheer instead. " No mention at all of "fix". On 15 March 2015 at 11:53, kcozens <kcozens@ve3syb.ca> wrote:
On 2015-03-14 19:05, Russell Reiter wrote:
FTW means fix the world, not fuck the world.
As a side note to the discussion, the meaning of FTW that I see most if For The Win.
--
Cheers!
Kevin.
http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
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-- Evan Leibovitch Toronto Canada Em: evan at telly dot org Sk: evanleibovitch Tw: el56
For myself I recall the phrase as fix the world and as coming from class discussion on topics of the day. Rosa Parks and civil rights, Vietnam and the returning disenfranchised vets, Nixon and Watergate, IBM IT&T and Hal Geneen, Hal Banks and the CSU and all the other stuff that served to sprout the phrase; well maybe I can't change the world but I can change my little part in|of it. This was the antithesis to Timothy Leary and "turn on, tune in and drop out." Also "for the world" is kind of an incomplete thought. It requires context. Fix the world is clear. As is its antisocial counterpart. As a metasploit I could say it like this. As a thought put down in writing, what comes before "for the word" The answer is "nothing" therefore the phrase truly means "nothing for the world." Clearly not the authors intent. Neither fix nor fuck when used this way, may be given an opposite or false meaning without additional word modifiers serving to change the context of the underlying thought. Again the eternal child in me is just crying out for me to say; in this brave new holographic universe perhaps "Fork The Word" is more appropriate. As in, if we could compile the OS and enumerate all the UART's properly at runtime, then find the right tic on the omnibus, all the worlds problems would just disappear. Apologies to Arthur C. Clark who first planted that thought in his Sci Fi story "The Nine Billion Names Of God." Russell On Sunday, March 15, 2015, Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:
From about.com <http://netforbeginners.about.com/od/f/f/What-Is-FTW-for-the-Win.htm>:
"In 2014, the most common meaning of 'FTW' is 'for the win', an internet cheer used to express general enthusiasm. [...] Years ago, 'FTW' used to have a very negative meaning: 'f**k the world'. This was a term commonly used by social rebels, anarchists and anti-authoritarian types to express frustration with modern society. Gratefully, this antisocial meaning has dramatically faded in use in the 21st century, and people now use 'for the win' as a modern cheer instead. "
No mention at all of "fix".
On 15 March 2015 at 11:53, kcozens <kcozens@ve3syb.ca <javascript:_e(%7B%7D,'cvml','kcozens@ve3syb.ca');>> wrote:
On 2015-03-14 19:05, Russell Reiter wrote:
FTW means fix the world, not fuck the world.
As a side note to the discussion, the meaning of FTW that I see most if For The Win.
--
Cheers!
Kevin.
http://www.ve3syb.ca/ |"Nerds make the shiny things that distract Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | the mouth-breathers, and that's why we're | powerful!" #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
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-- Evan Leibovitch Toronto Canada
Em: evan at telly dot org Sk: evanleibovitch Tw: el56
On 03/14/2015 10:05 PM, Russell Reiter wrote:
I was sitting in a friends apartment one dark and stormy night
No, no, NO!!! It's supposed to be "It was a dark and stormy night". ;-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It_was_a_dark_and_stormy_night https://www.google.ca/search?q=it+was+a+dark+and+stormy+night&tbm=isch&imgil=uh-hM5RqV1rZHM%253A%253BsxCwpiiwoDSKMM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.geocaching.com%25252Fseek%25252Fcache_details.aspx%25253Fguid%2525253D497c5460-3c9d-40e6-af71-2538614e5698&source=iu&pf=m&fir=uh-hM5RqV1rZHM%253A%252CsxCwpiiwoDSKMM%252C_&usg=__yFF_M-2Wyu-BoDNXsY41hxLVMc8%3D&biw=1306&bih=878&ved=0CEIQyjc&ei=Id4FVY71CvDisATRvYKIAQ#imgrc=uh-hM5RqV1rZHM%253A%3BsxCwpiiwoDSKMM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fpearlsofprofundity.files.wordpress.com%252F2013%252F03%252Fsnoopy-dark-and-gloomy-night-4.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.geocaching.com%252Fseek%252Fcache_details.aspx%253Fguid%253D497c5460-3c9d-40e6-af71-2538614e5698%3B1500%3B1125
On 03/14/2015 07:32 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
Well I suppose that with the main distribution being 3 phase power, but only running 2 phase power in residential areas (which I believe is generated by transformers from just 1 of the 3 phases in the main distribution, called I believe split phase, using a centre tap to ground to give the 2 phases, 180 degrees apart), does result in a potentially quite unbalanced grid, where the 3 phases could get rather out of balance. I have no idea if this really results in a big load imballance problem in general, or not.
Yes, residential distribution is just a single phase, center tapped. While only one phase is used in an area, other phases will be used elsewhere with the loads approximately balanced. In fact, in some areas, 3 phase is run at high voltage, with the distribution transformers, along the line, connected across different phases The centre tap results in the phases being 180° apart at the customer. The advantage of this is the neutral current will be the difference of that in the two "hot" lines.
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 06:57:49AM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote
Hydro is working all over the city to rectify some of the more serious load balancing issues generated by considerabble over optisim in the effective technology of the day the grid was built. I guess this is to stimulate investor confidence before selling the whole dog and pony show to someone else.
Two issues... more people and more power usage per person. My war story. I used to work at the Environment Canada building on Dufferin just south of Steeles before I retired. The building went up around 1969/1970, and was planned in the 1960's, to meet 1960's needs, with "sufficient spare capacity" ha ha ha. The building had been designed to support an IBM clone mainframe. As part of the plan some scientists and their CS support staff and some other staff had real honest-to-goodness "green screen" Volker Craig dumb terminals. I arrived there almost exactly 30 years ago, in March of 1985. At that time "the PC Revolution" was just getting underway. I remember my management agonizing about whether they should get me an IBM PC with a 5 *MEGABYTE* add-on drive, or an IBM PC-XT with a built-in 10 *MEGABYTE* hard drive. They eventually got the PC-XT. Fast forward a few years, and you're looking at several hundred people, each with a desktop computer, plus a monstrous monitor. And they all needed power. Needless to say, the building was running rather close to power capacity. It took a a couple of years to get the building upgraded, and I assume that Toronto Hydro had to upgrade equipment on their end. I don't remember any blackouts due to that issue, but I got the impression from management that we were running close to the edge for a couple of years. -- Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org>
I remember the campus well, I use to drive by it all the time whenever I was involved in a project in that region. Here's a bit of wifi trivia. For some reason 1978 comes to mind but I could be off for a decade or so. However the story starts here. Nikola Tesla approached the US government some time after the first world war and demonstrated some of his RC stuff. The military liked the tech but drew the line at Tesla's claim that even the power for the armaments themselves could be broadcasted. Fast forward to the Environment Canada Dufferin Campus in the present day; it was two EC researchers who proved Tesla's concept by flying a small RC aircraft in a circle over that location for 24 hours with power broadcasted to it by microwave. They landed after 24 hrs and said that was enough time to prove they could go on indefinitely and for reasons of community safety they ended the experiment. Sixty or so years from first inception and iteration to proof of concept. At least professor Higgs got to see his boson spring to life. I'll always remember this quote attributed to Tesla when a reporter asked him about all the publicity Marconi and Edison were getting at the time. He said, and I paraphrase here; let them have it, between them they use 14 of my patents. I am for the future. Clearly this was a man who knew who and what he was and as any one who knows his full story could attest to, his own purpose in life. In today's wired world we are touched by Tesla technology every day. AC is still the wild west of power transmission. I mean when Swedish technology can sneek stuff onto vulnerable tech via the wired grid, what do the WiFi possibilities become? Russell On Sunday, March 15, 2015, Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org> wrote:
On Sat, Mar 14, 2015 at 06:57:49AM -0400, Russell Reiter wrote
Hydro is working all over the city to rectify some of the more serious load balancing issues generated by considerabble over optisim in the effective technology of the day the grid was built. I guess this is to stimulate investor confidence before selling the whole dog and pony show to someone else.
Two issues... more people and more power usage per person. My war story. I used to work at the Environment Canada building on Dufferin just south of Steeles before I retired. The building went up around 1969/1970, and was planned in the 1960's, to meet 1960's needs, with "sufficient spare capacity" ha ha ha. The building had been designed to support an IBM clone mainframe. As part of the plan some scientists and their CS support staff and some other staff had real honest-to-goodness "green screen" Volker Craig dumb terminals.
I arrived there almost exactly 30 years ago, in March of 1985. At that time "the PC Revolution" was just getting underway. I remember my management agonizing about whether they should get me an IBM PC with a 5 *MEGABYTE* add-on drive, or an IBM PC-XT with a built-in 10 *MEGABYTE* hard drive. They eventually got the PC-XT. Fast forward a few years, and you're looking at several hundred people, each with a desktop computer, plus a monstrous monitor. And they all needed power.
Needless to say, the building was running rather close to power capacity. It took a a couple of years to get the building upgraded, and I assume that Toronto Hydro had to upgrade equipment on their end. I don't remember any blackouts due to that issue, but I got the impression from management that we were running close to the edge for a couple of years.
-- Walter Dnes <waltdnes@waltdnes.org <javascript:;>> --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org <javascript:;> http://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
participants (12)
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Dave Cramer -
David Mason -
Evan Leibovitch -
James Knott -
kcozens -
Lennart Sorensen -
Loui Chang -
phiscock＠ee.ryerson.ca -
Russell Reiter -
Scott Allen -
Stewart C. Russell -
Walter Dnes