Re: [GTALUG] Fedora 22 Live Workstation Install - no fglrx - no pdftk
<snip the problem description>
Can you duplicate the problem, all the while keeping a log of the various temperatures that are available to you? The CPU can monitor a few of the system temperatures, but I don't remember how (google surely does).
I was thinking of picking up one of those lazer doohickey's the health department uses to measure the temperature of steam table contents. I can't see if I was touching the cpu die or the bottom of the heat-sinc. For now I'v installed lm-sensor which shows: [root@solon ~] # sensors atk0110-acpi-0 Adapter: ACPI interface Vcore Voltage: +1.12 V (min = +0.85 V, max = +1.60 V) +3.3 Voltage: +3.26 V (min = +2.97 V, max = +3.63 V) +5 Voltage: +5.12 V (min = +4.50 V, max = +5.50 V) +12 Voltage: +11.98 V (min = +10.20 V, max = +13.80 V) CPU FAN Speed: 2755 RPM (min = 600 RPM, max = 7200 RPM) CHASSIS FAN Speed: 0 RPM (min = 600 RPM, max = 7200 RPM) POWER FAN Speed: 2428 RPM (min = 600 RPM, max = 7200 RPM) CPU Temperature: +43.0°C (high = +60.0°C, crit = +95.0°C) MB Temperature: +40.0°C (high = +45.0°C, crit = +95.0°C) k8temp-pci-00c3 Adapter: PCI adapter Core0 Temp: +36.0°C Core0 Temp: +43.0°C Core1 Temp: +40.0°C Core1 Temp: +38.0°C So far It looks like I don't have the chassis fan plugged into the right slot. But at least the unit works without blocking output of the air conditioner any more.
Can you affect uptimes by running CPU-bashing programs?
Are crashes at predictable uptimes when you are running identical workloads? Are these times affected by your ad hoc cooling boosters?
As you can see from lm-sensor, after the firmware update, I'm within operating parameters now. One feature of this motherboard is the ability to recover from different bios's. I'm curious beyond making it stable now, I may regress the bios and log what was happening at the time.
| The board default is to set overclocking as auto. I didn't choose it. | I haven't found a table of recommended settings like I once got with | service manuals when I bought a board. Now all I can find is quick | start or user manuals.
There is a (probably obsolete) manual that talks about the BIOS setup screen. (I'd look at this on my board but I don't wish to reboot.)
Apparently ASUS has a MS utility they ship with the board. Ai gear 2, which allows overclocking the MB from userspace. The condition seems similar to the laptop I experienced where the MS OS had hooks into controlling the power management.
"auto" is not described but it should meen "no overclocking". Especially if all the related settings are "auto" too.
When you flash new firmware, you are supposed to select "load setup defaults" in the CMOS setup "exit" tab. I always do. It only matters sometimes. Then you have to go reset all the little things you had changed.
That's what I chose, I had assumed conservative settings but perhaps that ASUS overclocking utility only works under one condition, auto. I'll never know, I don't use Windows. I did read that it killed audio on one board and that it was problematic for others.
| Well the combination of being able to choose a lower display | resolution and whatever was changed after the bios update did show | about a 10-15% reduction in CPU access when playing DVD's according to | Plasma's graphical system monitor.
What is "CPU access"?
The little graphic thingy in System Monitor which gives a visual output of load as a line graph for each CPU die, as well as for Memory/Swap and Network. At this time and at increased resolution the load line hovers around 60% as opposed to the old firmware at 800X600 which showed 85-100% load with video on VLC.
| I do note that desktop | sprite animations are slower.
What are "desktop sprite animations"? The mouse pointer?
Sprites are a term for layers used in animations. So in the case of the mouse pointer, it exists on a sprite layer. Any windows animations like dragging the widget around aren't dragging a box per-se, they are moving the indicator (0,0) to the point where the new sprite is created, leaving the old one to be destroyed on the screen redraw. In this case in Plasma, when you access the menu it pops up very slooooooowly and disappears in the same fashion. I'ts kind of cute. <snip the middle>
| It's the oddest thing. In the menu screen there is one line to set the | date in the usual way. You know tab to the next setting and use the | plus and minus keys to go up or down. However when you move to the | next line to set hours, minutes and seconds, you can change them but | enter won't commit them. F10 will write changes to the cmos but on | restart the default time is always 00:00:00.
Odd. Yeah, Odd.
My error. I used + & - to set the date but tried to type in the time. It let me enter the numbers and in fact did display them in the right place but didn't commit them. I cleared the RTC using the jumper this time and figured out my error when I re-read the posts. Sometimes just to be able to read the question again in the light of others scrutiny provides an answer. It's part of why I use the list and why I'm grateful for it
| > | Oh yea and whether or not it's worth it to modify the CPU | > | heat-sinc. | > | > First guess: not yet. | | After the bios update there doesn't seem to be as much heat coming off | it, but I can't tell for sure. The heat-sinc always feels cool to the | touch on the top and sides but around the base is another matter.
See above.
| On the link you posted on thermal pads these guy's were talking about | lapping matching surfaces on ground glass
Don't take my posting a link as support for what it says!
I understand that. I thought lapping the die was kind of goofy too. It's just that it reminded me of one of my old shop jobs.
Lapping seems like a goofy amount of investment in old hardware. I imagine people do that for the sense of control in a world where Intel and AMD make all the decisions. Kind of like those of us who put Linux on Windows boxes.
I'm with you on that one. I like using Linux because I always feel I've learned something. Not how to do some thing. At this point I'm still a little at odds with what to do about QT, but I can live with this state of things. It looks to me like this bios is heavily vested in Windows gamer land with the bios optimized to accept hooks from the ASUS GUI overclocking utility. This board looks like it has good audio support so it would be nice to have an all in one home theatre with surround sound as my workspace, but it's not really a necessity. Anything else I do to this unit is more out of curiosity than needs. Thanks for the pointers. Now my SO won't have to wonder where all her nail polish remover went. Russell
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| From: Russell Reiter <rreiter91@gmail.com> | For now I'v installed lm-sensor which shows: Those temperatures sure look fine. I don't know how accurate they are. But it's what you've got. My recollection is that lm-sensors has a large database of motherboards, and the plumbing of the sensors for each motherboard. The problem is that it is like wikipedia: it may be inaccurate or incomplete. Even the mapping from raw sensor reading to degrees is part of that. | So far It looks like I don't have the chassis fan plugged into the | right slot. The table entry might be wrong. Look at the board's manual or the silk screening. | As you can see from lm-sensor, after the firmware update, I'm within | operating parameters now. One feature of this motherboard is the | ability to recover from different bios's. I'm curious beyond making it | stable now, I may regress the bios and log what was happening at the | time. Take your winnings and go! Unless you have a lot of spare time. | Apparently ASUS has a MS utility they ship with the board. Ai gear 2, | which allows overclocking the MB from userspace. The condition seems | similar to the laptop I experienced where the MS OS had hooks into | controlling the power management. Calling it "a MS utility" suggests that Microsoft provided it. I'm sure MS had nothing to do with it. It is true that it will only run under some MS Windows, but that isn't the same thing. The "MS OS .. hooks" terminology carries implications that I doubt. The main way of affecting hardware is through ACPI, which both Linux and Windows use. It is true that some ACPI implementations (inside the firmware) try to detect which OS is being used, but Linux calls itself Windows, if I remember correctly. Vendors like ASUS can also write drivers for Windows that do odd things with the hardware. But none of this is by Microsoft as far as I know. | > What is "CPU access"? | | The little graphic thingy in System Monitor which gives a visual | output of load as a line graph for each CPU die, as well as for | Memory/Swap and Network. At this time and at increased resolution the | load line hovers around 60% as opposed to the old firmware at 800X600 | which showed 85-100% load with video on VLC. Normally, I'd call this "CPU utilization". I don't remember how well it reflects cycles used by the kernel (and there are several ways in which the kernel uses cycles). Your computer has one processor chip, a die, but two cores (I'd call them two processors, but I'm old fashioned). The "die" is one of the pieces after the silicon wafer is "diced" (cut into bits). The plural of "die" is "dice" but most hardware folks seem to use "dies". Firmware is mostly cut out of the loop once the system is bootstrapped. The major exception is ACPI and perhaps SMM. Minor firmware updates should not really change CPU load. It could affect thermal throttling (slowing down the CPU to cut down heat generation). But then cooling should result in *higher* CPU utilization since the slowed machine has fewer cycles available. | > | > | I do note that desktop | > | sprite animations are slower. | > | > What are "desktop sprite animations"? The mouse pointer? | | Sprites are a term for layers used in animations. So in the case of | the mouse pointer, it exists on a sprite layer. Any windows animations | like dragging the widget around aren't dragging a box per-se, they are | moving the indicator (0,0) to the point where the new sprite is | created, leaving the old one to be destroyed on the screen redraw. | | In this case in Plasma, when you access the menu it pops up very | slooooooowly and disappears in the same fashion. I'ts kind of cute. Sprites historically have been very small patches of pixels and there usually have been bounds on the numbers of them. They were from the era of small and constrained frame buffers. Think old video consoles. I have no idea if they remain in current hardware or in current software abstractions (two different issues). But I don't expect them to have much application in non-game situations. The mouse cursor is it. When I drag a window, the whole thing moves. It certainly isn't a sprite: way too big. Yeah, there is animation in some desktops. That's surely not done with conventional sprites. Of course somebody might recycle the term to mean something different. | My error. I used + & - to set the date but tried to type in the time. | It let me enter the numbers and in fact did display them in the right | place but didn't commit them. Odd. But differently odd. | At this point I'm still a little at odds with what to do about QT, but | I can live with this state of things. After thrashing about a while, leaving unknown randomness in ones system, sometimes it makes sense to install the system afresh and apply the distro updates. The less fiddling one has to do to make it work, the less fiddling one will have to do in the future. [Excuse me for the quaint use of "one". I'd normally use "you" but that sounds like a command or an accusation. "One" captures more accurately what I intend. Too bad it is vanishing from our vocabulary.] I find that it pays to keep a lab book. I don't always write down what turns out to be important :-( Some fiddling is forced upon one. My ideal behaviour is to document these things in bug reports. Perhaps they get fixed, but at least they are documented. Embarassing fact: I sometimes rediscover my own solutions via google. You might have noticed some of my "war story" postings. | It looks to me like this bios is heavily vested in Windows gamer land | with the bios optimized to accept hooks from the ASUS GUI overclocking | utility. Usually this can be ignored. An overclocker-oriented board might have better margins making it more stable for those who don't use the capability.
On 7/31/15, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh@mimosa.com> wrote:
| From: Russell Reiter <rreiter91@gmail.com>
<snip>
My recollection is that lm-sensors has a large database of motherboards, and the plumbing of the sensors for each motherboard. The problem is that it is like wikipedia: it may be inaccurate or incomplete. Even the mapping from raw sensor reading to degrees is part of that.
Hmmm. Maybe I will invest in the lazer temperature thingy, get a better mapping of what is and is not a problem heatwise.
| So far It looks like I don't have the chassis fan plugged into the | right slot.
The table entry might be wrong. Look at the board's manual or the silk screening.
I got a copy of the manual when I picked up the bios. I've been leafing through it. I'll most likely take any additional cooling fan's power directly off the PS with an adaptor. I don't know if upgrading the disks to sata will help cooling but if it does become my workbox, I'll re-use the sata drives from my squeeze box. I'm trying to create a consolidated unit for both my partner and myself. I'm not a bachelor any more so I can't have cables running all over the place and three or four boxes with monitors strewn about.
| As you can see from lm-sensor, after the firmware update, I'm within | operating parameters now. One feature of this motherboard is the | ability to recover from different bios's. I'm curious beyond making it | stable now, I may regress the bios and log what was happening at the | time.
Take your winnings and go! Unless you have a lot of spare time.
Sound advice which I intend to take after I am more certain of the state of things.
| Apparently ASUS has a MS utility they ship with the board. Ai gear 2, | which allows overclocking the MB from userspace. The condition seems | similar to the laptop I experienced where the MS OS had hooks into | controlling the power management.
Calling it "a MS utility" suggests that Microsoft provided it. I'm sure MS had nothing to do with it. It is true that it will only run under some MS Windows, but that isn't the same thing.
Noted. Linux windows and MS windows are the same type of widgets, just created differently. Perhaps I'll substitute the word widget in the future. Although widget was originally an accounting term. <snip the middle>
Your computer has one processor chip, a die, but two cores (I'd call them two processors, but I'm old fashioned). The "die" is one of the pieces after the silicon wafer is "diced" (cut into bits). The plural of "die" is "dice" but most hardware folks seem to use "dies".
I suppose this is so as not to confuse it with casino dice. Another place where it's better to take your winnings and run. <another snip>
Yeah, there is animation in some desktops. That's surely not done with conventional sprites. Of course somebody might recycle the term to mean something different.
I first heard the term as "Windows Desktop Sprite." I first heard about sprites in old fairytales. Here's a googled definition. noun 1. an elf or fairy. synonyms: fairy, elf, pixie, imp, brownie, puck, peri, leprechaun; More 2. a computer graphic that may be moved on-screen and otherwise manipulated as a single entity.
| My error. I used + & - to set the date but tried to type in the time. | It let me enter the numbers and in fact did display them in the right | place but didn't commit them.
Odd. But differently odd.
Yea, my friends say that about me all the time, so I can commiserate.
| At this point I'm still a little at odds with what to do about QT, but | I can live with this state of things.
After thrashing about a while, leaving unknown randomness in ones system, sometimes it makes sense to install the system afresh and apply the distro updates. The less fiddling one has to do to make it work, the less fiddling one will have to do in the future.
I always count on installing my workstation system two or three times. Once to get a general feel of the GUI. I like to try new things and people move stuff around all the time. Plus features and bugs come and go. Once again to harden it, ie add and remove packages and the final install so that I have an order of operations should I have to install again from scratch.
[Excuse me for the quaint use of "one". I'd normally use "you" but that sounds like a command or an accusation. "One" captures more accurately what I intend. Too bad it is vanishing from our vocabulary.]
No problem at all for me. You sound like my Doctor when I'm trying to explain the conditions that make me feel the way I do so that I had to go see him. He's always reminding me of the "Queens English." English is a living modern and fluid language, said to take the best of others, laissez faire if you will. Some say it's the language of technocrats, others of Shakespeare/Bacon. Kind of like historical rhyme, ie. words that used to rhyme but now do not.
I find that it pays to keep a lab book. I don't always write down what turns out to be important :-(
Me too, when I do the work for others. Myself, not so much.
Some fiddling is forced upon one. My ideal behaviour is to document these things in bug reports. Perhaps they get fixed, but at least they are documented. Embarassing fact: I sometimes rediscover my own solutions via google.
You might have noticed some of my "war story" postings.
| It looks to me like this bios is heavily vested in Windows gamer land | with the bios optimized to accept hooks from the ASUS GUI overclocking | utility.
Usually this can be ignored. An overclocker-oriented board might have better margins making it more stable for those who don't use the capability.
At least lm-sensor gives me a start on educated guessing for moderated performance. That plus you help in oversight pinning down the exact issues. Thanks a bunch. I'm still looking for a table of sic sigma recommendations, often the service manuals are available somewhere deep in the bowels of the internet. Russell
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On Fri, 31 Jul 2015, Russell Reiter wrote: | From: Russell Reiter <rreiter91@gmail.com> | On 7/31/15, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh@mimosa.com> wrote: | > | From: Russell Reiter <rreiter91@gmail.com> | I got a copy of the manual when I picked up the bios. I think that there are several manual-like-objects of varying subject, detail, and specificity that you could have downloaded. Each might have some useful nuggets. | > Your computer has one processor chip, a die, but two cores (I'd call them | > two processors, but I'm old fashioned). The "die" is one of the pieces | > after the silicon wafer is "diced" (cut into bits). The plural of "die" | > is "dice" but most hardware folks seem to use "dies". | | I suppose this is so as not to confuse it with casino dice. Another | place where it's better to take your winnings and run. Same word, same meaning: something that is cut up. | > Yeah, there is animation in some desktops. That's surely not done with | > conventional sprites. Of course somebody might recycle the term to mean | > something different. | | I first heard the term as "Windows Desktop Sprite." I first heard | about sprites in old fairytales. | | Here's a googled definition. | 2. a computer graphic that may be moved on-screen and otherwise | manipulated as a single entity. Not a particularly good definition. <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_%28computer_graphics%29> isn't great, but it is better. | I'm still looking for a table of sic sigma recommendations, often the | service manuals are available somewhere deep in the bowels of the | internet. I think you mean "six sigma". Uneducated prejudice: Six sigma started out as a somewhat arbitrary quality metric. Sigma is the standard deviation of a distribution. Six sigma is meant to be six standard deviations away from the mean. I think that the distribution is assumed to be Gaussian (Bell Curve), which is usually safe, but probably not so far from the centre. Now six sigma is a religious movement for improving manufacturing and various other business processes. I don't actually understand your usage.
On 31 July 2015 at 14:18, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh@mimosa.com> wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2015, Russell Reiter wrote:
| I first heard the term as "Windows Desktop Sprite." I first heard | about sprites in old fairytales. | | Here's a googled definition.
| 2. a computer graphic that may be moved on-screen and otherwise | manipulated as a single entity.
Not a particularly good definition.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprite_%28computer_graphics%29> isn't great, but it is better.
Sprites date way back; I recall them from the 6502 days... http://www.randomterrain.com/atari-2600-memories-tutorial-andrew-davie-21.ht... "What are sprites? By now, sprites are well-known in the gaming industry. They are small, independently movable objects which are drawn by hardware anywhere over the top of playfield graphics. The Atari 2600 was the first console to introduce general-purpose sprites—back in the day they were called 'player missile graphics'. It was the Commodore 64 which introduced the term 'sprites', which we know and love." I remember using the "Player/Missile Graphics" system on Atari 8 bit systems. Probably smarter things arrived in more modern hardware, though I would be unsurprised to find that, in modern contexts, sprites might be mostly programming constructs residing in GUI libraries rather than being "first class objects" at the computer hardware level. It was pretty neat, back in the day, to have PMG in hardware; you could write code to tell the objects to move around, and get back reports of overlaps (e.g. - that missile hit your ship) reported back by one of the graphics chips...
| I'm still looking for a table of sic sigma recommendations, often the | service manuals are available somewhere deep in the bowels of the | internet.
I think you mean "six sigma".
Uneducated prejudice:
Six sigma started out as a somewhat arbitrary quality metric. Sigma is the standard deviation of a distribution. Six sigma is meant to be six standard deviations away from the mean. I think that the distribution is assumed to be Gaussian (Bell Curve), which is usually safe, but probably not so far from the centre.
Now six sigma is a religious movement for improving manufacturing and various other business processes.
I don't actually understand your usage.
The "Six sigma" stuff is a dogma about making processes so much better as to essentially eliminate defects. Assuming a normal distribution, six sigmas (6 standard deviations) better than the mean indicates a near-zero defect rate. In the usual distribution, it should be exceeded in 1 out of about 507 million events. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/68%E2%80%9395%E2%80%9399.7_rule The intent is clear enough ("effective elimination of defects") that quibbles over exactly which distribution is appropriate is mostly beside the point. (Not least of the issues being that some number of standard deviations worth of the people trying to "do six sigma" are most likely not sufficiently literate in statistics to distinguish between statistical distributions...) -- When confronted by a difficult problem, solve it by reducing it to the question, "How would the Lone Ranger handle this?"
On 7/31/15, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh@mimosa.com> wrote:
On Fri, 31 Jul 2015, Russell Reiter wrote:
<snip>
I think you mean "six sigma".
Umm. Six sigma is a corporate SAP construct. Put forward by Motorola if I recall correctly. A sic sigma table is one written, sic erat scriptum, thus it was written.
Uneducated prejudice:
Six sigma started out as a somewhat arbitrary quality metric. Sigma is the standard deviation of a distribution. Six sigma is meant to be six standard deviations away from the mean. I think that the distribution is assumed to be Gaussian (Bell Curve), which is usually safe, but probably not so far from the centre.
Now six sigma is a religious movement for improving manufacturing and various other business processes.
I don't actually understand your usage.
The rafter tables on my framing square were referred to as sic sigma. It's a set of tables by which oblique and other angles which which are used to join wooden members in a hip and valley roof may be calculated. Roofs and stairs are not calculated by angles as such, but by rise over run as in height over length. If you ever looked at a hip roof dormer before it was skinned over you would see "crippled" members which have an angle cut on the narrow face an angle cut on the wide face which is then cut on an oblique bias. There is a little birds mouth notch so that the member sits level on the top plate of the wall. This can all be calculated from the tables as they are written on the rafter square. All cuts can be made on the ground as well as the calculations to increase the length of the members so they stay 16 or 24 inches on centre as they increase in length to match the oblique angle of valley where the dormer joins the main roof. Sic erat scriptum by R. Russell Reiter this; the day of our Lord; July 31, 2015 etcetera, etcetra etc... There are some parts of the English language I don't miss. I was never very good at latin either. ;-)
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| From: Russell Reiter <rreiter91@gmail.com> | On 7/31/15, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh@mimosa.com> wrote: | > On Fri, 31 Jul 2015, Russell Reiter wrote: | > | <snip> | > I think you mean "six sigma". | | Umm. Six sigma is a corporate SAP construct. SAP? They were not the well-known heros of the movement. | Put forward by Motorola | if I recall correctly. Seems to be the case. | A sic sigma table is one written, sic erat | scriptum, thus it was written. Google doesn't know this. Most of the hits are for typos of "six sigma". There also seems to be SiC sigma (SiC == silicon carbide): "SiC Sigma fibres are commonly used as reinforcement in metal matrix composites." That's the first sentence of the abstract of: <http://www.gruppofrattura.it/ocs/index.php/esis/ECF13/paper/viewFile/8615/5049> How does sigma relate to scriptum? One is Greek and the other Latin, for example. | | The rafter tables on my framing square were referred to as sic sigma. | It's a set of tables by which oblique and other angles which which are | used to join wooden members in a hip and valley roof may be | calculated. Interesting. I found no google hits on this usage. Of course now there will be: this list is visible to google.
On 7/31/15, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh@mimosa.com> wrote:
| From: Russell Reiter <rreiter91@gmail.com>
| On 7/31/15, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh@mimosa.com> wrote: | > On Fri, 31 Jul 2015, Russell Reiter wrote: | > | <snip> | > I think you mean "six sigma". | | Umm. Six sigma is a corporate SAP construct.
SAP? They were not the well-known heros of the movement.
SAP as Standard Applied in Protocol existed long before the german business SAP co-opted the acronym in the 70's.
| Put forward by Motorola | if I recall correctly.
Seems to be the case.
| A sic sigma table is one written, sic erat | scriptum, thus it was written.
I just checked I got it wrong. Literally "thus was it written"
Google doesn't know this. Most of the hits are for typos of "six sigma". There also seems to be SiC sigma (SiC == silicon carbide): "SiC Sigma fibres are commonly used as reinforcement in metal matrix composites." That's the first sentence of the abstract of: <http://www.gruppofrattura.it/ocs/index.php/esis/ECF13/paper/viewFile/8615/5049>
Wikipedia does. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sic
How does sigma relate to scriptum? One is Greek and the other Latin, for example. | | The rafter tables on my framing square were referred to as sic sigma. | It's a set of tables by which oblique and other angles which which are | used to join wooden members in a hip and valley roof may be | calculated.
Interesting. I found no google hits on this usage.
You'd probably have to use a more advanced search to display the contents of old carpentry manuals. For example scanned copies in the Guttenberg project. I got this information as SOP training in my workplaces. SOP = Standard Operating Procedure. In hip and valley framing you have to be able to calculate the deviation from one member to another. Can't afford to waste expensive lumber by cutting a piece too short to be useful. There's lots of esoteric building knowledge for which the procedures are still maintained but the origins are clouded in masonic handshakes and the like. Now dormers come pre-fab and carpenters use a little tool called a speed square. Not many today can read and understand the tables. I could't today without a refresher, haven't swung a hammer for enterprise for 20 or more years. Even then stuff was more often coming pre-fab from the factory's than not. It was my Grandfather who taught me how to sharpen a plane and a saw in the 60's. I was 13 and thats how he related to me, as a young man who needed these essential skills. It's interesting to note that the current platform framing method we use to build house was implemented in order to create temporary manufacturing communities which were closer to the sources of natural resources. This was during the second world war. These houses are easy to put up and easy to take down. Ostensibly in order to repristinate the wild after the resources were extracted. I just checked the etymology of another tool to see if the old carpenters who trained me and loaned me their books to read got it right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plumb_bob Etymology The "plumb" in "plumb-bob" comes from the fact that such tools were originally made of lead (Latin plumbum, French plomb). The adjective "plumb" developed by extension, as did the noun "aplomb", from the notion of "standing upright". Dedicated craftspeople like to talk about their craft and impart their esoteric knowledge to younger people. Of course you have to show interest and listen well.
Of course now there will be: this list is visible to google.
I'm sure google learns more and more each day that passes. I sure do.
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participants (3)
-
Christopher Browne -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Russell Reiter