I decided against buying it. It doesn't have builtin ethernet port, and power port is not the square plug like other (older) ThinkPads. My company upgraded to ThinkPad P1 (64GB ram, 1TB ssd), and it's crap. First laptop didn't recognize AC power plug, forcing me to charge via USB-C. Second (current) laptop crashes everyday, especially during Zoom but not always. I'm looking to upgrade my desktop. Hopefully with a laptop, but another desktop is okay too. I was going to buy the same laptop as work laptop, and I'm glad I waited. On 2023-02-28 12:12, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

| From: William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | | I just received email promo from Lenovo: | | ThinkPad T14s Gen 2 Intel (14”) - Black | https://s.bluecore.com/Utrkeyg72dZq_0DQf820_NrJxD | | Is this a good deal?

The more precise question would "is this a good deal for me?" Unfortunately we don't really know what you need or want.

My current ideas about Lenovo:

- they have horribly high list prices

- they often put stuff on sale. Usually 40-50+ percent off.

- (all brands) expandability of notebooks is being reduced. Different models are different. Pro Tip: apparently no LPDDR4 DRAM is in sockets. Many machines have no RAM sockets -- all soldered. Some have soldered RAM + 1 socket (a lifeline but annoying because two matched SODIMMs perform better).

- they have a changing array of coupons to give you additional discounts. They are not secret but they are sometimes hard to find.

- sometimes you can get significant cash-back by going through rakuten.ca 10% yesterday and today but that is higher than normal. I've seen it at 14% a couple of weeks ago. Note: rakuten does not combine with some coupons (hard to figure out which)

- there is an educational / first responders discount through id.me I know little about it because I don't qualify.

About this particular computer:

- for that much money, I'd demand perfection.

- I'd prefer a better screen (more pixels, more nits, better colour perhaps, maybe touch)

- I'd prefer a later generation Intel CPU. They really seem to be getting better in each recent generation. I also prefer AMD but I think that Intel is now getting close and has some advantages (Thunderbolt, "efficiency cores").

(AMD Ryzen CPU naming is a misleading mess. You have to look up the particular chip to find out the microarchitecture generation.)

- I have not bought ThinkPads recently because the price premium has been too high. I certainly liked much about my ancient ones. Exception: I bought ThinkPad C13 ChromeBooks but they were less than $200.

- 16G RAM is much better that 8G but is it enough for the long amortization period of such an expensive notebook? (Three years ago I threw 32G in my main notebook because it was so cheap; I don't know if I need it) For most people, 16G is comfortable. For you: I have no way of knowing; probably you don't either.

- I find interesting deals on redflagdeals.com, in the Hot Deals Forum. Deals come and go.

- Randomly, this is cheaper and has better features but is a ThinkBook rather than a ThinkPad (not the same quality). Note: I'm not recommending it (I haven't looked closely at it)

<https://forums.redflagdeals.com/lenovo-canada-thinkbook-14p-14-2-2k-ryzen-7-6800h-16gb-512gb-895-after-codes-2596420/>

- if still available, this is a little more than half the cost of the ThinkPad and better in some ways. You may detest the format: touch screen, can be folded into a tablet.

<https://forums.redflagdeals.com/lenovo-canada-yoga-6-13-c-amd-dark-teal-aluminum-top-cover-starting-714-now-690-2600460/#p37263784>

If you don't mind a barely used ThinkPad, this guy bought one at a very good price from Lenovo, decided he didn't need it, instead of returning it offered it to the community at cost, got stiffed, and is probably stuck with it. So: he might accept a bit less than his asking price:

<https://forums.redflagdeals.com/open-box-lenovo-thinkbook-14p-ryzen-5-6600h-16gb-512gb-ssd-2-2k-screen-835-2600803/>

Somewhere in the forums he mentioned why he didn't like it as much as other choices.

Note: his price will not be subject to HST. He might be able to give you a copy of his original invoice which will show the HST he paid.

Note: I haven't talked to him about this so much is guess-work on my part.

--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

On 3/1/23 12:43, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

| From: William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org>

| I decided against buying it. It doesn't have builtin ethernet port,

Current laptops rarely have Ethernet ports. Wireless is good enough for most purposes and ethernet sockets add thickness.

Agreed, but one of our main uses of laptops at work is teleconferencing. Using wi-fi lead to stalls, drops and disconnections, so much that we issue each person two docking stations with wired ethernet ports. One is for home, the other for the office. A few colleagues have home routers that are far enough from their desks that wiring isn't easy, and they suffer disproportionately. --dave

I've been postponing upgrades. If I start to upgrade, it would be new big monitor, new graphic card to match, more ram, faster ssd, external hard disk "raid" box, etc. Strangely, I don't care about CPU, as long as it's fast enough. I would be satisfied with fast single core. A new machine makes more sense, now. Up to now, I've always built one myself. Maybe, I should try brand name, this time... On 2023-03-01 12:43, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

... What do you imagine that you might expand? --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

On 3/1/23 13:27, William Park via talk wrote: A new machine makes more sense, now. Up to now, I've always built one myself. Maybe, I should try brand name, this time... You might look at a Framework laptop, as it's not all glued and soldered together [https://images.prismic.io/frameworkmarketplace/21ea7901-d013-472c-a2f8-cde8f...] frame.work Introducing the new and upgraded Framework Laptop Framework Laptop: A thin, light, high-performance notebook that's upgradeable, repairable, and 100% yours. Order today with the latest configuration options. 🔗 https://frame.work/<https://frame.work/> --dave On 2023-03-01 12:43, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote: ... What do you imagine that you might expand? --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org<mailto:talk@gtalug.org> Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org<mailto:talk@gtalug.org> Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com<mailto:dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com> | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.

On Wed, Mar 01, 2023 at 12:43:42PM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

Current laptops rarely have Ethernet ports. Wireless is good enough for most purposes and ethernet sockets add thickness. You can always add a dongle (USB 3.x and Thunderbolt are plenty fast enough).

I have a USB gigabit adapter for my work laptop. Haven't used it once yet in 3 years.

Perhaps "workstation" (eg. ThinkPad P series) and "gaming" notebooks have them. Those are not optimizing for minimum weight and minimum size.

The 3rd gen P series dropped it. They do have 40Gbps USB4/thunderbolt ports though.

I think that's dead except on systems that require more than 100w. Not sure.

Certainly the Thinkpad P16 uses a rectangular 230W power connector. Looks the same as the previous P series as far sa I can tell.

I like the ThinkCentre M75q tiny at the moment. Not perfect by any means. I just bought one and will try to use it to replace my almost 10 year old conventional desktop.

It all depends on what you value.

I always think I want upgradability. So lets look at what I did upgrade in almost 10 years of my disktop.

- more RAM (4 sockets!). M75q has 2 sockets (I've maxed it)

- video card (PCIe sockets). M75q cannot be upgraded.

- faster ethernet card (PCIe sockets): I never needed it. M75q cannot. But now I have a mild need: we got Bell FTTH with 1.5g down. I expect it doesn't matter.

What do you imagine that you might expand?

Well you don't have to have more than 1Gbit on a single machine just because you have 1.5Gbit to the house. Although I guess if you don't share with anyone, you want to use it all yourself. I am currently pondering whether 10Gbit switches are easy to find to wire up my new house when I move this fall. Well if I wanted to spend $10000 they are easy to find, but that seems a tad unreasonable to me. Now if I could buy one at cost from work... maybe I should ask. -- Len Sorensen

On Fri, Mar 03, 2023 at 02:54:37AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:

We don't need more that 1Gbit now. That might change in the lifetime of your house. But the wires are the hard part to upgrade -- switches are easy. My 5-year-old wiring is CAT 6e -- we'll see how far it can actually be pushed.

CAT 5e can handle 10GbaseT for runs up to 30m as far as I remember.

I am not sure that 2.5G is enough of a step to cause me to turn everything over. I am buying 2.5Gbit things when there is little price premium. So far, that amounts to:

- 1.5Gbit down FTTH from Bell [some folks get 3G, I think: oops on the 2.5Gbit step]

Rogers offers 2.5Gbit fiber in some places.

- four 2.5Gbit ports on my recent little-PCs-that are routers (not yet deployed)

Yeah I am considering picking up one of those.

And that's it.

I might buy 2.5Gbit switches some day. Currently you can get 8-port dumb ones on AliExpress for US$140-ish. That isn't yet worth it to me.

-- Len Sorensen

On 2023-03-03 09:37, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:

...

Rogers offers 2.5Gbit fiber in some places. Feel free to correct me but I believe that all the "optical" and co-axial cable based services are shared(GPON).

So you could be sharing your 2.5Gb with up to 100 other people and if everybody decides to download a few hundred GB of video files at the same time you could be seeing speeds like 25Mb. So last mile bit rate is almost always much greater than the bandwidth that is available from the end node(home) to the core(151 front). I have seen 6Mbit DSL reduced to hundreds of bps by chronic back-haul congestion.

So a fiber/cable modems buffering with a 1Gb output may be enough to cover the practical bandwidth available on a reasonably loaded network.

ADSL always comes in as a poor 2nd to cable.  I'm on Rogers with a 500/30 package.  I rarely see less than about 920/32. Are there any ISPs distributing from 151 Front W. to customers? (I worked in that building for 17 years.)  The nearest Bell offices are on Simcoe, near Dundas and on Adelaide, near Bay.  I'm not sure where the nearest Rogers office is and I don't know where Beanfield is.  151 Front W. is the Torix Internet Exchange point, where various carriers and ISPs meet to exchange data.  For some reason, Bell doesn't seem to be there. https://www.torix.ca/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toronto_Internet_Exchange https://www.speedtest.net/result/14428650936

On 2023-03-03 11:51, Alvin Starr via talk wrote:

The upside of ADSL is that it is wire speed from the customer point to the node equipment is what you can get before back-haul.

With cable the all the customers on the segment are sharing the same bandwidth. So if your the first one on the cable you have the full speed to yourself but if your number 100 then you and the 99 other people are sharing that speed.

If you're on Fibe, you only have your own wire out to the node in the neighbourhood.  From there, it's shared.  Not much different from cable.

I picked 151 front as a common point that people would know as a backbone point. There are a hand full of IX points in Toronto now but 151 is still the biggest. There is also a reasonable likelihood that some of your traffic will still transit 151 Front.

Rogers is certainly there and many other ISPs.  I believe Bell peers in the U.S..

When UUNET moved into 151 front the reason I was given was because of the adjacent CO. That was also LONG before the building became a data center, and lots of big Bell COs are gone now or nothing more than a small brick building, so that CO may have gone also.

I was a computer tech in a data centre there in the late 70s and 80s, long before the Internet and VoIP tech that allowed the shrinking of the CO.  Last time I was there, a few years ago, doing work for Freedom, the "CO" was a small fraction of what it was, when I worked in it.  I was in planning there, 1989-1995 and saw a lot of change.  I remember when UUNET was there.  Some of my work was for Compuserve and the Microsoft network, along with various resellers and other carriers.  I'm the guy who planned the installation of a lot of systems there, as well as downtown Toronto and also up on the CN Tower. Here's a bit of trivia from back then.  I had over 6000 bays (racks or cabinets, most 8' tall) of equipment to keep track of.  The -48V plant ran about 7,000 amps to power all that equipment.  At that time, the Unitel equipment was on the 4th & 5th floors, with the other companies scattered among the other floors.  I worked with all of them in my planning.

On 2023-03-03 12:17, James Knott wrote:

...

...

With cable the all the customers on the segment are sharing the same bandwidth. So if your the first one on the cable you have the full speed to yourself but if your number 100 then you and the 99 other people are sharing that speed.

If you're on Fibe, you only have your own wire out to the node in the neighbourhood.  From there, it's shared.  Not much different from cable. Well with cable you can have 1000 people connected to the line card on

On 2023-03-03 12:47, James Knott via talk wrote: the node before your on the shared back-haul. So its shared up front and on the back.

Forgot to mention, even with original ADSL, with the dedicated copper pair, going back to the CO, the Internet connection was still shared at the DSLAM.  Several years ago, I was setting up some DSLAMs for Sprint Canada, just before Rogers bought them. Each DSLAM shelf had 32 lines connected to it, but all that traffic wound up on a DS3, which was 45 Mb.  So, you had 32 ADSL lines sharing that 45 Mb.

That kind of makes my point. The last DSLAMs I looked at well over 5 years ago were 24 ports with multiple 1G back-hauls That is less than full bandwidth to less than half the available bandwidth. On the other hand DOCSIS can support something like 1000 subscribers on a cable interface, and then you have the same issues of back-haul. GPON and 10-GPON I believe are limited to 128 subscribers per fiber interface. In all cases we have a funnel. The question is how big is the mouth of the funnel and how small is the throat. I don't have a particular love for one technology over another. But with decades of experience with DSL I am familial with all the warts and features of the technology. -- Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||

On Sun, Mar 05, 2023 at 05:31:27PM -0500, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:

My understanding is that the shared part is at least 10Gbit for each segment. Not sure how many houses would share one segment.

I still expect a fiber connection to be faster than my 25Mbit DSL connection. And it's not like people are constantly downloading, so I would think for the most part you ought to get decent speed in most cases, although of course what speed the server at the other and can provide you is a different story. It's only as fast as the slowest link.

At least what I have read says Rogers is using XGS-PON and they say they offer up to 8Gbit symmetric (so has to be XGS-PON based). And I did find at least one article say rogers is in fact one of the companies deplying XGS-PON. Apparently NG-PON2 is too expensive still. Of course the fiber itself in the ground doesn't care so they can upgrade later if they want. -- Len Sorensen

On Fri, Mar 03, 2023 at 09:56:06AM -0500, James Knott via talk wrote:

Actually, they're up to 8 Gb.

Hmm, they do in fact offer 8Gbit at that location, starting at $400/month versus $125/month for 2.5Gbit. $400 seems a bit steep. -- Len Sorensen

| From: D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | My 5-year-old wiring is CAT 6e -- we'll see how far it can | actually be pushed. Oops: it is CAT 6. | I am not sure that 2.5G is enough of a step to cause me to turn | everything over. I am buying 2.5Gbit things when there is little | price premium. So far, that amounts to: | | - 1.5Gbit down FTTH from Bell [some folks get 3G, I think: oops on the | 2.5Gbit step] | | - four 2.5Gbit ports on my recent little-PCs-that are routers (not yet | deployed) | | And that's it. Not true. I forgot that I bought a couple of 2.5Gbit ethernet <-> USB dongles too. From AliExpress. One USB A and the other USB C.