Re: [GTALUG] Seeking Recommendations For New Desktop PC -- To Run Debian Linux;
Thanks to Ron / BCLUG and William Park for responses about a recommended mother board and a recent build. Although I did build the desktop PC with the mother board that is now failing, I'm not going to build the replacement PC. Building will take too long and the expert friend who helped me with the build is to busy to help me with another build. So, I will buy a pre-built PC. * * * * * * Seems that Lenovo certifies their desktop PCs for Ubuntu linux but they nave compatibility problems with Debian linux. Dell (Heresy, I know) has a few models that look interesting: ... Inspiron Desktop Model: 3030 CAD $899.99 ==> https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/dell-desktops-workstations/inspiron-desktop/... ... Inspiron Small Desktop CAD $549.99 ==> https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/dell-desktops-workstations/inspiron-small-de... ... XPS Desktop Starting At $949.99 ==> https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/cty/pdp/spd/xps-8960-desktop ==> see left-hand column model; ... Dell Tower Plus Starting At $1,499.99 ==> https://www.dell.com/en-ca/shop/cty/pdp/spd/dell-ebt2250-desktop ==> see left-hand column model; ... So I'm researching these Dells. Steve Petrie apetrie@aspetrie.net 416-233-6116
From: Steve Petrie via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
Although I did build the desktop PC with the mother board that is now failing, I'm not going to build the replacement PC. Building will take too long and the expert friend who helped me with the build is to busy to help me with another build.
Makes sense. There may be some salvage value in your old system.
So, I will buy a pre-built PC.
Seems that Lenovo certifies their desktop PCs for Ubuntu linux but they nave compatibility problems with Debian linux.
I find very few compatibility problems with the PC's I've tried. Laptops can be a little trickier because they have so many integrated functions. Do I remember that you have a card that you want to install in your system? If not, I'll recommend a mini PC. I used to only buy "ordinary" tower PCs but I have switched to a Bee-link SER7 mini PC. Before that, my wife switched from an old HP Small Form Factor PC to a Lenovo ThinkCentre M75q "tiny". Downside: little expansion capability other than RAM and disk. In particular, no discrete GPU. Upside: small footprint. My wife's SFF never had a card installed, so that capability didn't matter. Similarly, the only expansion card in my (10 year old) PC was a video card to drive my UltraHD monitor (something that these mini PCs can do well enough without a video card). My mini PC came with a 2.5Gb/s ethernet port (two, actually). My wife's ThinkCentre only has a 1Gb/s ethernet port, but that's fine. The ThinkCentre is better built than the Bee-link but I don't see how that matters. Lenovo support (firmware updates) goes on for many years. Lenovo prices swing wildly. You can often find a 40% discount from Think* list prices. I don't see a good price now. This is the Bee-link on my desktop: <https://www.amazon.ca/Beelink-7840HS-Desktop-Computer-Display/dp/B08V54W7W9/... I paid less for it 16 months ago, from Amazon.ca. Odd. Especially since it has bee superseded by the SER8 series. Good luck!
Man, I'm so behind. Have you compared with Intel's NUC? Is Beelink still better value? On 2025-02-15 18:26, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
This is the Bee-link on my desktop: <https://www.amazon.ca/Beelink-7840HS-Desktop-Computer-Display/dp/B08V54W7W9/...
From: William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
Man, I'm so behind. Have you compared with Intel's NUC? Is Beelink still better value?
Kind of different. - Intel no longer makes NUCs: they sold the business to Asus - NUCs (at least used to) only contain Intel processors, an inferior choice - NUCs are expensive - Bee-Link is a Chinese brand that doesn't pretend to be anything else - there is some after-sales support but an unknown amount. - the price varies. Mine was a steal the fall before last. More expensive now, even though it is no longer the newest model. Amazon has coupons that lower the price, but only at random times. - Minisforum is another brand of mini PC. <https://store.minisforum.com/> It seems to be a bit more imaginative than Bee-link.
On 2025-02-15 18:26, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
This is the Bee-link on my desktop: <https://www.amazon.ca/Beelink-7840HS-Desktop-Computer-Display/dp/B08V54W7W9/...
Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:27 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
From: William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
Man, I'm so behind. Have you compared with Intel's NUC? Is Beelink still better value?
Kind of different.
- Intel no longer makes NUCs: they sold the business to Asus
- NUCs (at least used to) only contain Intel processors, an inferior choice
There is an AMD-based NUC in the works <https://www.tomshardware.com/desktops/mini-pcs/amd-powered-nuc-appears-to-be-in-the-works-ryzen-ai-max-395-powered-mini-pc-spotted>. The lag is likely due to the reality that Intel invented the form factor and the NUC brand. There have been AMD-based SFF systems in the past but from lesser-known brands. I subscribe to a Youtube channel, ETA PRIME <https://www.youtube.com/@ETAPRIME>, that regularly does reviews of SFF PCs along with gaming devices and SBCs down to the Raspberry Pi and clones.
- NUCs are expensive
The Intel-branded ones were overpriced but that has stabilized with Asus and competitors involved. - Bee-Link is a Chinese brand that doesn't pretend to be anything else
and ... so? Do any of them pretend to be something else?
- there is some after-sales support but an unknown amount.
It's unknown until you buy one and need support. The best support is the one you don't need. :-D One other difference often found is that many NUC-sized systems use laptop CPUs and RAM. While that might mean higher cost for upgrades or reduced performance, it also means that their power bricks usually consume far less than the supplies on equivalent PCs.
- the price varies. Mine was a steal the fall before last. More expensive now, even though it is no longer the newest model. Amazon has coupons that lower the price, but only at random times.
ca.camelcamelcamel.com is your friend. - Evan
On 2025-02-20 19:26, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
The Intel-branded ones were overpriced but that has stabilized with Asus and competitors involved.
- Bee-Link is a Chinese brand that doesn't pretend to be anything else
and ... so? Do any of them pretend to be something else?
Steve, I'm using my Beelink as a headless server, so it's not quite your use case, but I think it's a great box. Alan Jude from 2.5 admins / BSDCan / FreeBSD also recommends them.. so I think you're in good shape if you stick with them. Warm regards, -- Mark Prosser // E: mark@zealnetworks.ca // W: https://zealnetworks.ca
From: Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:27 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
From: William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
Man, I'm so behind. Have you compared with Intel's NUC? Is Beelink still better value?
Kind of different.
- Intel no longer makes NUCs: they sold the business to Asus
- NUCs (at least used to) only contain Intel processors, an inferior choice
There is an AMD-based NUC in the works <https://www.tomshardware.com/desktops/mini-pcs/amd-powered-nuc-appears-to-be-in-the-works-ryzen-ai-max-395-powered-mini-pc-spotted>.
Interesting but too late for Steve. Actually all discussion is too late for Steve since he already bought a Dell. But sharing knowledge is useful to list members, or at least to me.
The lag is likely due to the reality that Intel invented the form factor and the NUC brand. There have been AMD-based SFF systems in the past but from lesser-known brands.
Lots of very small form factors have been invented. My oldest tiny computer is probably an Acer AspireRevo from 2009. AMD processors have been a good choice, off and on, for a long time. But they haven't been popular until recently.
I subscribe to a Youtube channel, ETA PRIME <https://www.youtube.com/@ETAPRIME>, that regularly does reviews of SFF PCs along with gaming devices and SBCs down to the Raspberry Pi and clones.
Fun and useful. There are a lot of other channels too. Some are careful about disclosing sponsorship (I don't remember if ETA Prime is).
The Intel-branded ones were overpriced but that has stabilized with Asus and competitors involved.
I saw no magic in the Intel brand and never bought one. I haven't really looked at Asus-branded ones but "stabilized" isn't good enough. Even Lenovo ThinkCentres are cheaper (during a good sale).
- Bee-Link is a Chinese brand that doesn't pretend to be anything else
and ... so? Do any of them pretend to be something else?
Lenovo. Asus (Headquarters in Taiwan, but how much is actually there?). Every other "American" brand has all the manufacturing and an unknown amount of the engineering done in Asia, primarily PRC. As I understand it, The engineering/design of most computers is done by ODMs. Names you usually don't hear, but Foxconn is one.
- there is some after-sales support but an unknown amount.
It's unknown until you buy one and need support. The best support is the one you don't need. :-D
When I buy things, I like long warranties. They are a hint that the manufacturer has a long term commitment to reliability. Firmware updates are inevitable. If none is offered, you have been abandoned. I have gotten downloaded ThinkCentre firmware (BIOS) updates released almost 10 years after the computer was made. My main Bee-Link computer had a firmware update (good!) but 1. it wasn't announced 2. you had to ask support for a copy 3. they required a photo of the POST screen 4. they gave me a URL for an odd HK hosting site (perhaps to avoid the Great Firewall) All that seems less than first-class.
One other difference often found is that many NUC-sized systems use laptop CPUs and RAM. While that might mean higher cost for upgrades or reduced performance, it also means that their power bricks usually consume far less than the supplies on equivalent PCs.
Yes. With power consumption comes heat and consequently noise. And throttling. And moving parts that can wear out. A lot of designing a PC these days is about cooling trade-offs. ThinkCentre Tinys usually have processors with a T suffix which - you and I cannot buy - are power-reduced desktop chips Lenovo Tinys use laptop bricks. My Lenovo Tinys seem a little noisier than my BeeLinks. (The Mac Mini doesn't use a brick at all! True of certain BeeLink models too but there are trade-offs.) At least some AMD T chips can do ECC but Lenovo has not enabled this. Rats. I expect that the T chips support more PCIe lanes that laptop chips. They would be naturals for a NAS computer but I haven't seen them in the PC's designed for NAS software. I think they are used in several closed NAS boxes. As I understand it, my new NAS box's performance is impacted by multiplexing the limited number of PCIe lines.
ca.camelcamelcamel.com is your friend.
Yes. Unfortunately it doesn't come with a time machine.
Speaking of buying from Dell I sent this to Steve privately, but it might help someone else in here. As a Dell employee, I get 4 or 5 discount codes every year, worth 15%, they call it the family and friends discount. You have to buy directly from the Dell website, and it applies to most - if not all - items. If anyone needs one, please let me know. FYI, I’m a technical resource, I know nothing of sales, all of what I do is away from people. -nick On Fri, Feb 21, 2025 at 10:57 D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
From: Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
On Wed, Feb 19, 2025 at 4:27 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk < talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
From: William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
Man, I'm so behind. Have you compared with Intel's NUC? Is Beelink still better value?
Kind of different.
- Intel no longer makes NUCs: they sold the business to Asus
- NUCs (at least used to) only contain Intel processors, an inferior choice
There is an AMD-based NUC in the works < https://www.tomshardware.com/desktops/mini-pcs/amd-powered-nuc-appears-to-be... .
Interesting but too late for Steve. Actually all discussion is too late for Steve since he already bought a Dell. But sharing knowledge is useful to list members, or at least to me.
The lag is likely due to the reality that Intel invented the form factor and the NUC brand. There have been AMD-based SFF systems in the past but from lesser-known brands.
Lots of very small form factors have been invented. My oldest tiny computer is probably an Acer AspireRevo from 2009.
AMD processors have been a good choice, off and on, for a long time. But they haven't been popular until recently.
I subscribe to a Youtube channel, ETA PRIME <https://www.youtube.com/@ETAPRIME>, that regularly does reviews of SFF PCs along with gaming devices and SBCs down to the Raspberry Pi and clones.
Fun and useful. There are a lot of other channels too. Some are careful about disclosing sponsorship (I don't remember if ETA Prime is).
The Intel-branded ones were overpriced but that has stabilized with Asus and competitors involved.
I saw no magic in the Intel brand and never bought one. I haven't really looked at Asus-branded ones but "stabilized" isn't good enough. Even Lenovo ThinkCentres are cheaper (during a good sale).
- Bee-Link is a Chinese brand that doesn't pretend to be anything else
and ... so? Do any of them pretend to be something else?
Lenovo. Asus (Headquarters in Taiwan, but how much is actually there?). Every other "American" brand has all the manufacturing and an unknown amount of the engineering done in Asia, primarily PRC.
As I understand it, The engineering/design of most computers is done by ODMs. Names you usually don't hear, but Foxconn is one.
- there is some after-sales support but an unknown amount.
It's unknown until you buy one and need support. The best support is the one you don't need. :-D
When I buy things, I like long warranties. They are a hint that the manufacturer has a long term commitment to reliability.
Firmware updates are inevitable. If none is offered, you have been abandoned.
I have gotten downloaded ThinkCentre firmware (BIOS) updates released almost 10 years after the computer was made.
My main Bee-Link computer had a firmware update (good!) but 1. it wasn't announced 2. you had to ask support for a copy 3. they required a photo of the POST screen 4. they gave me a URL for an odd HK hosting site (perhaps to avoid the Great Firewall) All that seems less than first-class.
One other difference often found is that many NUC-sized systems use laptop CPUs and RAM. While that might mean higher cost for upgrades or reduced performance, it also means that their power bricks usually consume far less than the supplies on equivalent PCs.
Yes. With power consumption comes heat and consequently noise. And throttling. And moving parts that can wear out. A lot of designing a PC these days is about cooling trade-offs.
ThinkCentre Tinys usually have processors with a T suffix which - you and I cannot buy - are power-reduced desktop chips
Lenovo Tinys use laptop bricks. My Lenovo Tinys seem a little noisier than my BeeLinks.
(The Mac Mini doesn't use a brick at all! True of certain BeeLink models too but there are trade-offs.)
At least some AMD T chips can do ECC but Lenovo has not enabled this. Rats.
I expect that the T chips support more PCIe lanes that laptop chips. They would be naturals for a NAS computer but I haven't seen them in the PC's designed for NAS software. I think they are used in several closed NAS boxes.
As I understand it, my new NAS box's performance is impacted by multiplexing the limited number of PCIe lines.
ca.camelcamelcamel.com is your friend.
Yes. Unfortunately it doesn't come with a time machine.--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
participants (6)
-
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Evan Leibovitch -
Mark Prosser -
Nick Accad -
Steve Petrie -
William Park