Hi wise souls of computing. One of the creative problems going on with my recently built computer is that the fan in the power supply no longer works. Nor can I use the power button to actually turn off the machine anymore. When it gets too warm in fact, I must flip the switch on the supply in the back..its scary, but so is overheating. While I am still hunting for sighted help to fix the mess my prior contact left behind..the cd rom is disconnected too, I want to plan properly for the power supply replacement. I have several, including at least one still in the box. I am quite sure that the power supply capacity is too low for the several things the machine is doing, I have three hard drives in the unit, several internal boards in use those kinds of things. Is there a guide, or rule of fun, for determine how much power capacity a supply should provide based on how much work the computer processor will be doing? With appreciation. Karen
Hi Karen, I've never had a problem using prevailing wisdom like that which you'll find in the following Reddit link when last I built my two workhorse PCs and had to consider power supply capacity: https://old.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/o3bjbn/how_do_i_choose_a_psu/h2b2... The situation as you describe it sounds quite stressful, wishing you a swift and effective resolution. Mike Sent with Proton Mail secure email. On Thursday, July 18th, 2024 at 4:19 PM, Karen Lewellen via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hi wise souls of computing. One of the creative problems going on with my recently built computer is that the fan in the power supply no longer works. Nor can I use the power button to actually turn off the machine anymore. When it gets too warm in fact, I must flip the switch on the supply in the back..its scary, but so is overheating.
While I am still hunting for sighted help to fix the mess my prior contact left behind..the cd rom is disconnected too, I want to plan properly for the power supply replacement. I have several, including at least one still in the box. I am quite sure that the power supply capacity is too low for the several things the machine is doing, I have three hard drives in the unit, several internal boards in use those kinds of things. Is there a guide, or rule of fun, for determine how much power capacity a supply should provide based on how much work the computer processor will be doing? With appreciation. Karen
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Hi Mike, Thanks for the positive wishes resolution wise. Your reddit link leads to a page stating my request has been blocked due to a network policy. One deeply unfortunate thing about reddit is their decision to block most, if not all third party applications and tools for reading posts there. Personally frustrating as I used to find great Harry Potter fanfiction that way! Ahem, in any case, can you summarize the wisdom for me? Cheers, Karen On Thu, 18 Jul 2024, Mike Holloway wrote:
Hi Karen,
I've never had a problem using prevailing wisdom like that which you'll find in the following Reddit link when last I built my two workhorse PCs and had to consider power supply capacity: https://old.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/o3bjbn/how_do_i_choose_a_psu/h2b2...
The situation as you describe it sounds quite stressful, wishing you a swift and effective resolution.
Mike
Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
On Thursday, July 18th, 2024 at 4:19 PM, Karen Lewellen via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Hi wise souls of computing. One of the creative problems going on with my recently built computer is that the fan in the power supply no longer works. Nor can I use the power button to actually turn off the machine anymore. When it gets too warm in fact, I must flip the switch on the supply in the back..its scary, but so is overheating.
While I am still hunting for sighted help to fix the mess my prior contact left behind..the cd rom is disconnected too, I want to plan properly for the power supply replacement. I have several, including at least one still in the box. I am quite sure that the power supply capacity is too low for the several things the machine is doing, I have three hard drives in the unit, several internal boards in use those kinds of things. Is there a guide, or rule of fun, for determine how much power capacity a supply should provide based on how much work the computer processor will be doing? With appreciation. Karen
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If I remember correctly, your "new" machine is very old. It is likely that current advice and rules of thumb don't apply. Perhaps your power supply is dying of old age. Fans certainly wear out. Having too many things in your box might stress your power supply. Three disks seems like a lot for a DOS setup. Is the problem that DOS can only handle small drives? The more things in your system, the more points of failure. I imagine that, sooner or later, you are going to have to move to a newer platform. I know you already know how hard it is to stay with the technology you have. I don't have time to review what you've said about your system, but I seem to remember that you are very attached to your Kurzweil Reader and that Linux's screen readers are not good enough. So I know that replacement isn't easy.
Actually I have no idea, only that someone from this list provided a p3 unit..assuming the person who did the work was forthright. As for hard drive size, freedos, www.freedos.org Can manage hard drives in the tigibyte range. My personal situation has to do with the need for content on those drives. I often need to run several different editions of the same software in different partitions to avoid conflict. Normally I backup content right away, but the individual involved with this build felt the Panasonic designed USB driver for DOS should not go on this computer..no explanation provided..no matter how often I sought to explain otherwise. So, yes there are three hard drives in this machine, but I have managed larger drives in DOS without issue. It is very possible the power supply is not powerful enough for my workload. windows would require even more power I would imagine. Thanks very much for the terrific questions. On Thu, 18 Jul 2024, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
If I remember correctly, your "new" machine is very old.
It is likely that current advice and rules of thumb don't apply.
Perhaps your power supply is dying of old age. Fans certainly wear out.
Having too many things in your box might stress your power supply.
Three disks seems like a lot for a DOS setup. Is the problem that DOS can only handle small drives?
The more things in your system, the more points of failure.
I imagine that, sooner or later, you are going to have to move to a newer platform. I know you already know how hard it is to stay with the technology you have.
I don't have time to review what you've said about your system, but I seem to remember that you are very attached to your Kurzweil Reader and that Linux's screen readers are not good enough. So I know that replacement isn't easy. --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
My apologies for my tone. I do not wish to seem as if I am throwing the guy who built this machine under the bus. Still he has about $12 thousand in equipment of mine he refuses to return, so. Add in the likely avoidable supply thing and I am not always as kind as I wish with my words...sorry.. On Thu, 18 Jul 2024, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
If I remember correctly, your "new" machine is very old.
It is likely that current advice and rules of thumb don't apply.
Perhaps your power supply is dying of old age. Fans certainly wear out.
Having too many things in your box might stress your power supply.
Three disks seems like a lot for a DOS setup. Is the problem that DOS can only handle small drives?
The more things in your system, the more points of failure.
I imagine that, sooner or later, you are going to have to move to a newer platform. I know you already know how hard it is to stay with the technology you have.
I don't have time to review what you've said about your system, but I seem to remember that you are very attached to your Kurzweil Reader and that Linux's screen readers are not good enough. So I know that replacement isn't easy. --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 12:19:02PM -0400, Karen Lewellen via talk wrote:
Hi wise souls of computing. One of the creative problems going on with my recently built computer is that the fan in the power supply no longer works. Nor can I use the power button to actually turn off the machine anymore. When it gets too warm in fact, I must flip the switch on the supply in the back..its scary, but so is overheating.
While I am still hunting for sighted help to fix the mess my prior contact left behind..the cd rom is disconnected too, I want to plan properly for the power supply replacement. I have several, including at least one still in the box. I am quite sure that the power supply capacity is too low for the several things the machine is doing, I have three hard drives in the unit, several internal boards in use those kinds of things. Is there a guide, or rule of fun, for determine how much power capacity a supply should provide based on how much work the computer processor will be doing? With appreciation.
So for old spinning hard disks (not modern solid state drives), power consumption is usually in the 5 to 10 watts, but could be 15 watts for some of the older ones from 25 or 30 years ago. Not sure which ones you have in this machine. But worst case call it 50 watts for 3 drives. Pentium 3 processor at 1GHz is up to 35 watts. A couple watts per stick of memory if I remember right and a bit for the chip set on the board. It does not seem like that should overload most power supplies. I think power supplies under 200 watt were pretty rare, although I am sure Dell would have tried to put a 180 or even 150 watt power supply in a machine to save a few dollars. If the fan has failed, that will definitely make the power supply unhappy and the heat could very wall make it less stable at managing the voltages too. Is the cd-rom internal or USB? You mentioned a DOS USB driver (looks neat, I had no idea someone had made that) so maybe the cd-rom was an external USB. -- Len Sorensen
Hi, Trying for context. On Thu, 18 Jul 2024, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
So for old spinning hard disks (not modern solid state drives), power consumption is usually in the 5 to 10 watts, but could be 15 watts for some of the older ones from 25 or 30 years ago. Not sure which ones h> you have in this machine. But worst case call it 50 watts for 3 drives.
Pentium 3 processor at 1GHz is up to 35 watts. A couple watts per stick of memory if I remember right and a bit for the chip set on the board.
This is most helpful thank you!
It does not seem like that should overload most power supplies. I think power supplies under 200 watt were pretty rare, although I am sure Dell would have tried to put a 180 or even 150 watt power supply in a machine to save a few dollars. While I cannot be certain, I feel sure the boxed one I have is 300, perhaps higher. Its odd what you say about memory, the machine I had to replace had a great deal more memory, then I believe is in this one, but this machine is far louder than any unit I have ever owned. At one point the computer was so warm that the time and date was changing every 2 minutes or so, jumping ahead.
If the fan has failed, that will definitely make the power supply unhappy and the heat could very wall make it less stable at managing the voltages too.
Thanks for that extra wisdom as well. Any serious danger with my cutting power as I have to due to the power button factor? It worries me slightly, at their best, those switches only kick in with a power failure of some kind.
Is the cd-rom internal or USB?
Its internal, in fact the lose cables are floating around inside the case as well. I do have a USB DVD / cd burner that would be a gift to have in place just now. all of my statements, bank for example, come in an alternative format sent on cd..and I cannot read them. You mentioned a DOS USB driver (looks neat,
I had no idea someone had made that) so maybe the cd-rom was an external USB. Yet another reason why I wish the driver was properly installed. Panasonic created the DOS driver for some of their own equipment, with an engineer a few years back finding it for me. Some of the documentation is actually in Japanese. Granted freedos has a couple of DOS USB drivers, I have a second one as well. I am actually typing on a USB keyboard with that function turned on in the bios, no driver required. of! now that I think of it, are there USB to whatever keyboard adapters? Cheers, Karen
-- Len Sorensen
On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 11:01:20PM -0400, Karen Lewellen via talk wrote:
Hi, Trying for context.
Yay, worked great.
While I cannot be certain, I feel sure the boxed one I have is 300, perhaps higher.
300 watt is definitely a very common size of power supply.
Its odd what you say about memory, the machine I had to replace had a great deal more memory, then I believe is in this one, but this machine is far louder than any unit I have ever owned. At one point the computer was so warm that the time and date was changing every 2 minutes or so, jumping ahead.
Well if the power supply fan is failed, that means all the other fans have to try harder to cool their part of the system, so it will get louder.
Thanks for that extra wisdom as well. Any serious danger with my cutting power as I have to due to the power button factor? It worries me slightly, at their best, those switches only kick in with a power failure of some kind.
Well most OSs don't like it, but you are running DOS, so shouldn't be a problem. Cutting power sure beats having it overheat enough to break something or catch fire. I suspect it would probably blow a fuse or some other component before catching fire though.
Its internal, in fact the lose cables are floating around inside the case as well. I do have a USB DVD / cd burner that would be a gift to have in place just now. all of my statements, bank for example, come in an alternative format sent on cd..and I cannot read them.
So probably either the data cable wasn't connected or the power wasn't (not enough power connectors on the power supply perhaps and needed a Y adapter to split it?)
Yet another reason why I wish the driver was properly installed. Panasonic created the DOS driver for some of their own equipment, with an engineer a few years back finding it for me. Some of the documentation is actually in Japanese. Granted freedos has a couple of DOS USB drivers, I have a second one as well. I am actually typing on a USB keyboard with that function turned on in the bios, no driver required. of! now that I think of it, are there USB to whatever keyboard adapters?
There are USB keyboard to PS/2 adapters since the USB keyboard protocol was purposely made to be very simple compared to other USB devices. And yes the BIOS will often emulate older keyboards from USB so boot loaders and DOS can access it without a driver. -- Len Sorensen
On 2024-07-18 12:19, Karen Lewellen via talk wrote:
Hi wise souls of computing. One of the creative problems going on with my recently built computer is that the fan in the power supply no longer works. Nor can I use the
Power supply fan is usually temperature controlled, though the threshold could be adjustable. If it's not turning, then it could be because the power supply is still not "hot" enough.
power button to actually turn off the machine anymore.
It could be the button is not connected.
When it gets too warm in fact, I must flip the switch on the supply in the back..its scary, but so is overheating.
How do you know it's getting hot?
While I am still hunting for sighted help to fix the mess my prior contact left behind..the cd rom is disconnected too, I want to plan
Another indication that the button is not connected.
properly for the power supply replacement. I have several, including at least one still in the box. I am quite sure that the power supply capacity is too low for the several things the machine is doing, I have three hard drives in the unit, several internal boards in use those kinds of things.
Except for graphic cards, I don't think you have to worry about power usage of cards.
Is there a guide, or rule of fun, for determine how much power capacity a supply should provide based on how much work the computer processor will be doing?
General rule I used (it's been long time since I bought anything computer related): - step 1 -- max cpu Watt + max graphic Watt + 10W/harddisk + motherboard itself. - step 2 -- your budget - step 3 -- get highest efficiency. I bought cheapest Corsair "Gold" power supply at that time. It was replaced under warranty, and still running.
With appreciation. Karen
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Trying for context again. On Thu, 18 Jul 2024, William Park via talk wrote:
Power supply fan is usually temperature controlled, though the threshold could be adjustable. If it's not turning, then it could be because the power supply is still not "hot" enough.
yes, I have owned units like this, where the fan would kick in to cool the machine down, but in this case the fan was turning, but stopped entirely..will answer the rest below.
power button to actually turn off the machine anymore.
It could be the button is not connected. The button was functional previously, with the case not having been opened for a few months now.
How do you know it's getting hot?
Great question! I have never owned a computer with 1. a case that is so hot to the touch that I can smell slight smoke sometimes, and the smell I associate with heat. 2. where my computer clock jumps in time rapidly..fortunately that only happened once. 3. My speech source is an internal card. as the case, smell, heat increases, the speech starts to increase on its own. The case heat alone is Unusual for my experience. even the metal around where the fan should be turning is quite warm to the touch.
Another indication that the button is not connected.
Why? the button was functioning long after the cables connecting the cd rom were left loose inside the case.
properly for the power supply replacement. Except for graphic cards, I don't think you have to worry about power usage of cards.
Perhaps, but the slight smell of burning suggests heat inside the case, and I have never owned a machine that ran this hot to the touch.
General rule I used (it's been long time since I bought anything computer related): - step 1 -- max cpu Watt + max graphic Watt + 10W/harddisk + motherboard itself. - step 2 -- your budget - step 3 -- get highest efficiency. I bought cheapest Corsair "Gold" power supply at that time. It was replaced under warranty, and still running.
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On Thu, Jul 18, 2024 at 10:59:03PM -0400, William Park via talk wrote:
Power supply fan is usually temperature controlled, though the threshold could be adjustable. If it's not turning, then it could be because the power supply is still not "hot" enough.
No PC power supply I have owned in 30 years has ever had a temperature controlled fan in the power supply. If the machine is on, the fan is spinning. Maybe some very very high end models do that. -- Len Sorensen
On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 at 10:56, Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
No PC power supply I have owned in 30 years has ever had a temperature controlled fan in the power supply.
I recently bought a Cooler Master Masterwatt Lite 600, model MPX-6001-ACAAW, PC power supply, circa 2017. (I got it from a guy for $25 who bought it new, because he thought the supply in his PC was faulty. It turned out his original supply was fine, so this one had sat in the box unused.) The product sheet for this supply says: "Cooler Master's 120mm HDB temperature control fan"... (Note "temperature control") https://www.coolermaster.com/en-global/products/masterwatt-lite-600w-full-ra... The box it came in has a graph with curves for fan RPM and acoustic noise (dBA) on the Y axis vs. percent of rated load on the X axis.
From 0% to 100% load the fan speed slopes upwards from 1000 to 2000 RPM (and the noise from 20 to 34 dBA).
Having a temperature controlled fan in a PC power supply didn't strike me as being unusual.
If the machine is on, the fan is spinning.
This, however, is likely almost alway true. I think the control range would rarely extend to fully off.
Maybe some very very high end models do that.
I believe this supply is considered to be a "budget" model. https://www.pctekreviews.com/Reviews/PSU_600.aspx -- Scott
On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 03:21:40PM -0400, Scott Allen wrote:
On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 at 10:56, Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote: I recently bought a Cooler Master Masterwatt Lite 600, model MPX-6001-ACAAW, PC power supply, circa 2017. (I got it from a guy for $25 who bought it new, because he thought the supply in his PC was faulty. It turned out his original supply was fine, so this one had sat in the box unused.)
The product sheet for this supply says: "Cooler Master's 120mm HDB temperature control fan"... (Note "temperature control") https://www.coolermaster.com/en-global/products/masterwatt-lite-600w-full-ra...
The box it came in has a graph with curves for fan RPM and acoustic noise (dBA) on the Y axis vs. percent of rated load on the X axis. From 0% to 100% load the fan speed slopes upwards from 1000 to 2000 RPM (and the noise from 20 to 34 dBA).
Having a temperature controlled fan in a PC power supply didn't strike me as being unusual.
Well maybe at the higher wattages. I haven't built anything that ever need that much power (high end gaming machines is not something I have ever had).
This, however, is likely almost alway true. I think the control range would rarely extend to fully off.
Yeah 1000 rpm is definitely still spinning just much less noisy. I suspect there are some specialized silent power supplies that may in fact stop their fan when not needed.
I believe this supply is considered to be a "budget" model. https://www.pctekreviews.com/Reviews/PSU_600.aspx
At what point did 600W power supplies become budget level power supplies? -- Len Sorensen
From: Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
At what point did 600W power supplies become budget level power supplies?
My guess is that there are a few forces: - the only people who buy power supplies are enthusiasts or gamers. Others just buy ready-built PCs. - Gamers are sure they need a lot of power for their video cards. Unfortunately, it isn't easy to tell how much, so over-specing is the easiest approach. - people think that a larger PS is more reliable since it isn't likely to be overloaded. - a larger power supply is more likely to accomodate future additions to your system. - people seem to perceive the value of a PS to be proportional to the power but the cost to manufacture isn't. So manufacturers like selling larger ones.
On Jul 20, 2024, at 03:21, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
- the only people who buy power supplies are enthusiasts or gamers.
Or people whose previous PSU failed and want a compatible replacement.
- people seem to perceive the value of a PS to be proportional to the power but the cost to manufacture isn't. So manufacturers like selling larger ones.
I’m old enough to remember Henry’s advice to buy the heaviest PSU. Kids nowadays will be asking “Who’s Henry?” Anthony
On Sat, Jul 20, 2024 at 07:17:28PM -0400, Anthony de Boer via talk wrote:
I’m old enough to remember Henry’s advice to buy the heaviest PSU. Kids nowadays will be asking “Who’s Henry?”
That was good advice once. Also as far as I have seen, running at around 50% of max capacity is where power supplies tend to be most efficient. Well the modern switching ones that is. -- Len Sorensen
On 2024-07-20 19:17, Anthony de Boer via talk wrote:
On Jul 20, 2024, at 03:21, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
- the only people who buy power supplies are enthusiasts or gamers.
Exactly. I had a previous computer for many years and the power supply fan would die. I replaced the PSU twice before I got around to upgrading my computer. BTW, the fan in my current PSU (a TX650M) only spins briefly after applying main power to the unit. My system load is not sufficient to require it running all the time. -- Cheers! Kevin. https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | "Nerds make the shiny things that | distract the mouth-breathers, and Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | that's why we're powerful" #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
From: Kevin Cozens via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
On 2024-07-20 19:17, Anthony de Boer via talk wrote:
On Jul 20, 2024, at 03:21, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
- the only people who buy power supplies are enthusiasts or gamers.
Exactly. I had a previous computer for many years and the power supply fan would die. I replaced the PSU twice before I got around to upgrading my computer.
I think you really meant to quote part of Anthony's message:
Or people whose previous PSU failed and want a compatible replacement.
On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 at 10:56, Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
No PC power supply I have owned in 30 years has ever had a temperature controlled fan in the power supply.
On Fri, 19 Jul 2024 at 15:21, Scott Allen <mlxxxp@gmail.com> wrote:
Having a temperature controlled fan in a PC power supply didn't strike me as being unusual.
I just looked at another PC power supply I bought many years ago; a Corsair CX430. (I've actually bought two of these over the years, with one in the machine I'm using for this message.) The overview for it on Corsair's website says: "Large-diameter, thermally controlled fan Once you’ve installed a PSU, you shouldn’t have to think about it. Employing a thermally controlled fan makes the CX Series virtually silent at idle, and the large diameter reduces noise even when you’re pushing your system hard." -- Scott
On Fri, Jul 19, 2024 at 03:46:57PM -0400, Scott Allen wrote:
I just looked at another PC power supply I bought many years ago; a Corsair CX430. (I've actually bought two of these over the years, with one in the machine I'm using for this message.) The overview for it on Corsair's website says:
"Large-diameter, thermally controlled fan
Once you’ve installed a PSU, you shouldn’t have to think about it. Employing a thermally controlled fan makes the CX Series virtually silent at idle, and the large diameter reduces noise even when you’re pushing your system hard."
Maybe they do commonly vary the fan speed. They don't turn it off though. Fan off is probably a bad sign. -- Len Sorensen
participants (8)
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Anthony de Boer -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Karen Lewellen -
Kevin Cozens -
Lennart Sorensen -
Mike Holloway -
Scott Allen -
William Park