William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> writes:

Just find alternatives to Emacs and GNU, and be done with. What's all the fuss?

+1 I Recommed that GTALUG not add their name to any such petitions -- William Henderson aka Slackrat http://billh.sdf.org/slackware.jpg 9HS5203 ON HamSphere Ham Radio

The primary activity of this list is one of empathy - tech support. We often help one another, even if we're not having a problem. RMS doesn't have to be your problem to be an problem our little community should help fix. RMS is like an outdated library included in otherwise useful software - it makes it basically unusable and unmaintainable. If that software is the first thing someone tries to use, they get so fed up with it that they leave and never come back. He is so toxic to be around that free software has lost many people forever who would have been amazing. What Evan is suggesting, and I am endorsing, is that we file a bug report. On Wed., Mar. 24, 2021, 07:18 o1bigtenor via talk, <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 8:46 PM Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

...

... hopefully, not for long.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/free-software-advocates-seek-rem...

...

I propose that GTALUG as an organization add its name to the petition,

already signed by a healthy cross section of the FOSS world.

...

https://rms-open-letter.github.io/

tl;dr IMHO the complete brouha is political correctness run amok!

I would request that we return to the matter at hand - - - - computers and computing and its tools and leave the political correctness to the bureaucratic elite for whom it has become a driving passion. One needs to remember that the language of political correctness was design to allow one to describe how to pick up a turd by its clean end. Secondly the bigger the bureaucracy the greater the likelihood that it is a refuge for the unable, the unwilling and/or the incompetent. Sloth and indogence are rewarded rather than activity and output. This present direction is in process of destroying our society with that end looming very very close.

Regards --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

On Wed, 24 Mar 2021, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:

tl;dr IMHO the complete brouha is political correctness run amok!

Yes indeed. I've been actively opposing political correctness for many years. I am of course against signing the petition. I wrote an article on the subject back when RMS originally resigned. It's actually a response to the article written by Selam G that kicked off the entire episode. https://avoiceformen.com/featured/a-great-man-in-the-free-and-open-source-co...

Secondly the bigger the bureaucracy the greater the likelihood that it is a refuge for the unable, the unwilling and/or the incompetent. Sloth and indogence are rewarded rather than activity and output.

Haven't you heard, we live in a period of post meritocracy... https://postmeritocracy.org/ The author of the above manifesto, Coraline Ada Ehmke, is also the author of the Contributor Covenant used by many FOSS projects.

This present direction is in process of destroying our society with that end looming very very close.

Agreed. It's time for the silent majority to be a little less silent. Rob

On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 at 23:17, Stewart C. Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

...

IMHO the complete brouha is political correctness run amok!

It's been suggested - initially by Neil Gaiman¹ - that the term used above should be replaced by “treating other people with respect”. Your first paragraphs read quite differently if we make the substitution:

There are numerous reasons why that substitution is wholly unreasonable and itself quite agenda-driven. The explanation of why is massively off-scope here but I'm happy to engage offline. To me, it is trivially demonstrable that the FSF has both engaged in political correctness -- as a primary tactic -- and is now a victim of it. But IMO that point is actually quite irrelevant to the justified criticism of the FSF's self-inflicted wound. What's left to see is how deep it was. I would request that we return to the matter at hand - - - - computers and

computing and its tools

GTALUG ... and to a broader extent the wider FOSS community ... has always engaged in both technical and non-technical activities. In the past it has participated in trade shows, run instalfests, and had speakers providing very un-technical explanations of the benefits and the challenges for the IT mainstream using and developing FOSS software. There's room for both tech and advocacy, and GTALUG has broadly managed the balance well over decades. The FSF -- as distinct from the GNU project -- is an utterly non-technical entity. It produces no code; it manages no projects. It deals with politics and IP law and morality and media. If someone wants to advance the position that discussing the FSF is out of scope in GTALUG because its role is non-technical, that's a legitimate take but quite inconsistent with the group's history. - Evan

Hi, Without taking names, I would suggest participants on this thread take a look at https://gtalug.org/about/code-of-conduct/ . Dhaval

An incel is a personal self description as involuntary celebate. This is not at all a linux topic. How does Evan purport to know Richard Stallman is involuntarily celebate. That would be the first question to be answered going forward. On Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 11:24 AM Alex Volkov via talk, <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

Hello Evan,

Reading the replies to your post I feel disappointed that we have so many reactionaries in our midst.

Calling people reactionary for discussing Evans disparaging remarks about RMS is hardly on topic either.

I support this idea.

I'm going to cc email to the board and see if we can vote on board list or

call a meeting.

Name calling is typically the last resort of ignorance and hardly worth voting on. Am I a reactionary incel for calling this out as both off topic linux wise? and also pointing out that the code of conduct does not explicitly prohibit reactionary expressionisim. In the meantime It is also possible to sign the petition as an individual.

This is the only rational response to Evans inflamatory post which was most likely authored out of covid boredom.

Alex.

On 2021-03-23 9:46 p.m., Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

... hopefully, not for long.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/free-software-advocates-seek-rem...

I propose that GTALUG as an organization add its name to the petition, already signed by a healthy cross section of the FOSS world.

https://rms-open-letter.github.io/

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56

--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

Russell “Th’ newspaper does ivrything f’r us. It runs th’ polis foorce an’ th’ banks, commands th’ milishy, controls th’ ligislachure, baptizes th’ young, marries th’ foolish, comforts th’ afflicted, afflicts th’ comfortable, buries th’ dead an’ roasts thim aftherward.” F. P. Dunne

On Wednesday, 24 March 2021, Evan Leibovitch <evan@telly.org> wrote:

On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 at 11:53, Russell Reiter via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

...

An incel is a personal self description as involuntary celebate.

Yeah, that was an incendiary headline, and I apologize to all who broke at that one.

This is not at all a linux topic.

...

Actually it is, for anyone who cares about advocacy and the community as much as the tech, it very much is.

Ahh we have to agree to disagree on this. The first list rule before you read the code of conduct is don't be the person (guy) on the soap box. Soapboxing is a socio-political marketing tool. You were soapboxing in the most political way possible, by ascribing a non existent and wholy negative personal attribute out of thin air and at a whim.

My take on this winnerless sad chain of events that it's actually not at all about Stallman himself. It's pathetic story that says volumes about the free software community.

Just to be clear, it wasn't the wrong characterization of Stallman as an incel that made me respond, it was the soapboxing which I think violated the code of conduct. What you write now after that fact, is the non apologetic apology so often used by political actors when they in essence tell us to not believe what they said but believe what I mean.

It's not about free speech. Stallman never lost access to his soapbox, the blog from which he expressed himself.

To the extent it's been about "cancel culture", you reap what you sow. RMS and the FSF have been engaging in would-be cancelling for many decades.

Cancel Xerox. Cancel Apple. Cancel "Linux System". Cancel "open source".

That they did not succeed did not diminish the efforts. I was present when FSF people (including RMS) successfully got the words "open source" purged from an important UN policy document, only to be outmanoeuvred by proprietary interests who prevented "free software" from replacing it. So in the end there was no mention of anything. Yay us.

There is much to admire about Stallman. I purchased a GNU magtape in 1989 without having a magtape reader, because that was the way you contributed to the GNU project back then. Arguably the FOSS world as we know it might never exist as it does with him.

However, that world has evolved, or at least it's trying to. There are still barriers to entry that keep our community smaller and older than it should be. There are many, many among us who could be as passionate about free software as Stallman, without all of the inevitable negative baggage. Frankly, I haven't been following most of the accusations, and can make my judgment on RMS's suitability for leadership based solely on what I've seen and heard myself after numerous encounters, and from what I've heard from others I trust.

But, as I said, this is not about Stallman. He is what he is and, generally, what he's always been -- simultaneously brilliant, narcissistic and antisocial, Sheldon Cooper with a Jesus complex. I fully agree that the guilt-by-association stuff is bullshit.

This, instead, is about the FSF Board's staggeringly bad judgment in bringing him back into a role of leadership and decision-making. Rather be remembered as the creator of a movement, he'll be remembered as the person whose comeback made that movement irrelevant. Instead of charting a way to promote free software ideals at a time when the cloud directly threatens their core ethos, the FSF chooses the anti-diplomat.

On reflection, forget the petition. The damage is done and the FSF is likely going to become a pariah org no matter what happens. Any pretence the FSF had of being the conscience of the broader FOSS movement is gone. Nobody wins, but we in the community who struggle to attract diversity and broader societal support will lose the worst. I hope someone out there thinks the trade was worth it.

Conclusion:

<https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=You%20either%20die%20a%20hero%2C%20or%20live%20long%20enough%20to%20see%20yourself%20become%20the%20villain.> "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the villain <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8WfRcnF4iZI>" -- Harvey Dent. <https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=You%20either%20die%20a%20hero%2C%20or%20live%20long%20enough%20to%20see%20yourself%20become%20the%20villain.>

Cheers,

I have spent a couple of decades moving in marganalized spaces and proselytizing linux use as an alternative to mainstream for profit software. It would be very had for me to justify to anyone of those peers who I engaged with, just how this thread was about linux or advocacy in our modern free and democratic society. But hey, it's just my opinion that this thread is not about linux. I wouldnt bother writing this at all if I didn't think this listserv was worth the effort needed to keep it free and democratic. Free as in speech not beer. Free beer always costs more, one way or another.

- Evan

Russell

| From: Alex Volkov via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | Hello Evan, | | Reading the replies to your post I feel disappointed that we have so many | reactionaries in our midst. We need a diversity of voices. But not rude ones. Calling Stallman an "incel" is quite wrong and deserves an invocation of our Code of Conduct. This discussion itself is clearly divisive. Is it worth having? It seems that there is more heat than light. | I support this idea. I don't. Nothing I've read makes it crystal clear that RMS has done anything wrong. Many tellings are importantly inaccurate. I don't wish to spend hours and hours investigating. (I've met Stallman a few times. In my experience, he isn't a very likable person. But that's not a crime. He's also done much good for the computer field (and some bad). That does not mitigate any crime.) | I'm going to cc email to the board and see if we can vote on board list | or call a meeting. I would consider it improper for GTALUG to sign this unless you can show sufficiently broad support. | In the meantime It is also possible to sign the petition as an individual. Absolutely.

On Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 11:57 AM Howard Gibson via talk, <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 21:46:00 -0400 Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

...

... hopefully, not for long.

Evan,

Some useful and interesting references...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman

Rational Wiki is interesting, since it is opinionated as all hell. Wikipedia is required to maintain a neutral tone.

Thanks for posting this. Rational Wiki had a fact I wasn't aware of regarding the editing of a Vice article.

"Eventually, discussions between Stallman and the rest of the CSAIL mailing list would end up getting forwared to another student at MIT, who published the story on Medium.[38] <https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#cite_note-removerms-40> The story started getting minor traction, until VICE ran an article on it[39] <https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#cite_note-removermsvice-41>. The article, whilst mostly accurate would remove the second sentence from the emphasized paragraph, which ended up making Stallman look like he was defending Epstein. This resulted in the story blowing up and most news outlets, rather than verifying the original emails (which VICE had attached to their article[40] <https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman#cite_note-removermsmails-42>) simply ended up copying VICEs shortening of the headline."

Are they trying to disassociate themselves from a criminal, or do they just want to not be represented by an asshole? Stallman has certainly demonstrated the importance of public figures STFU when the topic is something they don't understand.

Somtimes you have to dig for your knowledge. It may be valid, even though you don't like the envelope it arrives in. Generally people make mistakes and errors in judgement all the time. Its how we correct those errors and mistakes that describes the content of our character. Of course that an impossible thing when someone edits your words after the fact and then the mob runs with that.

-- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca jhowardgibson@gmail.com http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk

Russell “Th’ newspaper does ivrything f’r us. It runs th’ polis foorce an’ th’ banks, commands th’ milishy, controls th’ ligislachure, baptizes th’ young, marries th’ foolish, comforts th’ afflicted, afflicts th’ comfortable, buries th’ dead an’ roasts thim aftherward.” F. P. Dunne