I know that Akamai Cloud (formerly Linode) has dedicated root Linux servers in Toronto, but is there anyone else non-terrible*? There's a potential client who absolutely must have all data and processing hosted in Canada. I realize there's probably a 3x (or more) premium for in-country hosting. Any suggestions/caveats greatly appreciated. Best Wishes, Stewart *: your definition is fine. I don't know enough to have an opinion
Digital Ocean, Vultr, OVHcloud have data centres in Toronto or Montreal.
On Apr 10, 2023, at 15:14, Stewart C. Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I know that Akamai Cloud (formerly Linode) has dedicated root Linux servers in Toronto, but is there anyone else non-terrible*? There's a potential client who absolutely must have all data and processing hosted in Canada. I realize there's probably a 3x (or more) premium for in-country hosting.
Any suggestions/caveats greatly appreciated.
Best Wishes, Stewart
*: your definition is fine. I don't know enough to have an opinion --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 at 15:16, Alex Kink via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Digital Ocean, Vultr, OVHcloud have data centres in Toronto or Montreal.
On Apr 10, 2023, at 15:14, Stewart C. Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I know that Akamai Cloud (formerly Linode) has dedicated root Linux servers in Toronto, but is there anyone else non-terrible*? There's a potential client who absolutely must have all data and processing hosted in Canada. I realize there's probably a 3x (or more) premium for in-country hosting.
Any suggestions/caveats greatly appreciated.
I second the Digital Ocean suggestion: I use them heavily both at work and personally (gilesorr.com mentioned in my email signature is hosted there), with all machines in their Toronto data centre. We've used them for approximately seven years (the Toronto presence is only about five years old), and they've been excellent. I think we should point out one caveat: D.O. is American-owned. Although if you were considering Akamai/Linode, I guess that's okay. -- Giles https://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com
On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 8:40 AM Giles Orr via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 at 15:16, Alex Kink via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Digital Ocean, ...
I second the Digital Ocean suggestion
Thanks, all! Looks like Digital Ocean has exactly what we need at a price we can work with. US ownership is fine: the only ownership problem a very few of our clients have is China. They provide services in turn to the US government, so if they want to be xenophobic, that's their problem. It's been fun times engineering out US-disapproved products. We were just about to roll out an ESP32-based controller, but that got noped out by a client. A shame, because what you can do with a $2 ESP32 used to take a small server. (None of them are big enough to run Linux, tho) cheers, Stewart
| From: Stewart Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | It's been fun times | engineering out US-disapproved products. We were just about to roll out an | ESP32-based controller, but that got noped out by a client. A shame, | because what you can do with a $2 ESP32 used to take a small server. (None | of them are big enough to run Linux, tho) I'm not sure what "none of them" refers to: ESP32 things or their substitutes. As you say, Linux doesn't run on an ESP32. But there is a youtube video of someone who has built a PDP-11 emulator with an ESP32 and runs 2.11 BSD UNIX on it. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtmNOZVrz98> So cute! I wonder if uClinux could be ported to ESP32. But not enough to try! It's not clear to me that it would be very useful.
On 11/04/2023 11.34, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
As you say, Linux doesn't run on an ESP32. But there is a youtube video of someone who has built a PDP-11 emulator with an ESP32 and runs 2.11 BSD UNIX on it. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtmNOZVrz98> So cute! Ah, Sprite_tm's project: Sprites mods - Tiny PDP11 - Intro — https://spritesmods.com/?art=minipdp11
It's a little hard to find the exact EP32 module used for that simulation. That's part of the problem: there are many different chips called ESP32 /something/, but many of them are incompatible. Some have one core, most have two. Some have the ability to take a few megabytes of extra external (slow-ish) RAM, many don't. Some are even RISC V in disguise (the new ESP32-C6 is fully RISC V) , or have a tiny RISC V acting as an Ultra Low Power Processor that can do basic electronic logic and while the main processor is asleep.
I wonder if uClinux could be ported to ESP32. But not enough to try! It's not clear to me that it would be very useful. Apparently it can — https://www.cnx-software.com/2021/07/18/linux-5-0-esp32-processor/ - but it's doing it via RISC V emulation. I can't see how it would be useful at all, though
cheers, Stewart
| From: Stewart C. Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | It's a little hard to find the exact EP32 module used for that simulation. | That's part of the problem: there are many different chips called ESP32 | /something/, but many of them are incompatible. Some have one core, most have | two. Some have the ability to take a few megabytes of extra external | (slow-ish) RAM, many don't. Some are even RISC V in disguise (the new ESP32-C6 | is fully RISC V) , or have a tiny RISC V acting as an Ultra Low Power | Processor that can do basic electronic logic and while the main processor is | asleep. Yes. Espressif has done a terrible job naming these things. You know the following but others might find it interesting. Beware: LONG These SoCs have an amazing collection of features to interact with devices in the real world. A few parts are not so great (eg. the Analog to Digital Converters seem to have disappointing accuracy). It is in the same ballpark as a Raspberry Pi Pico. ESP32-S? are the ones with the Xtensa main processor(s) ESP32-C? are the ones with the RISCV processors The Xtensa-based one have more compute power. It seems like a reasonable processor. The S3 even has something for accelerating AI computing (I'm haven't looked to see if it is documented). The RISCV-based ones are less expensive and seem to be designed to replace ESP8266 chips. Note the RISCV is 32-bit and doesn't have an MMU as we know it. Not suitable for Linux. Espressif also make a confusing set of modules and those are the things that most boards have. WROOM and WROVER (with external-to-the-chip RAM and ROM) are the main ones. I window shop for these on AliExpress. Most ads are unclear about just what modules they use. The "camera" variant seems like a lot of bang for the buck. Here's an example (I don't know anything about this vendor): <https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005003804757059.html> Beware: for this and many other listings you choose a "color" to select the configuration. If you get it wrong, you get a booby prize (eg. only an antenna). The most powerful normal ESP32 board seems to be an ESP32-S3 with 16M of flash and 8M of RAM (often written N16R8). Two USB connectors are nice: one is for programming and the other is for whatever your program wants it to be. Too bad this one requires you to solder the headers: <https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004617322170.html> Color 1: $4.92 C3 Color 2: $9.02 S3 N16R8 Color 3: $7.44 S3 N8R2 | > I wonder if uClinux could be ported to ESP32. But not enough to try! | > It's not clear to me that it would be very useful. | Apparently it can — | https://www.cnx-software.com/2021/07/18/linux-5-0-esp32-processor/ - but it's | doing it via RISC V emulation. I can't see how it would be useful at all, | though That's expedient but wasteful and, as you say, unlikely to be useful. As far as I remember, the Xtensa CPUs have memory protection but not a sufficiently general MMU for UNIX or Linux. They do have enough RAM and ROM for ancient and small UNIX-like systems. A maxed-out PDP-11/45 had 256K of RAM.
On Wed, Apr 12, 2023 at 3:45 PM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I window shop for these on AliExpress. Most ads are unclear about just what modules they use.
This is why using established designers and resellers is a good idea. Even on AliExpress, there are vendors who develop their own hardware and support it well, often with github repos of code and actually-usable documentation. These may not be the cheapest vendors. For me, these include: - LOLIN — https://lolin.aliexpress.com/store/1331105 . LOLIN - aka Wemos - developed the little D1 Mini format board years ago, and have developed many variants and support boards. Their documentation site https://www.wemos.cc/en/latest/index.html is as close to great as you'll get in this market. Their boards typically come flashed with the latest version of MicroPython, very lightly tweaked so it's easy to use the right pins. - lilygo — https://lilygo.aliexpress.com/store/2090076 . They have many more imaginative products such as ESP32-based smart watches and ham radio transceivers. Not cheap, but interesting. - WeAct Studio — https://weactstudio.aliexpress.com/store/910567080 . Very barebones boards, but their production QC/finish is remarkably good and they've actually bothered to put some unnecessarily nice features into their products. Their low-end ESP32-C3FH4 board is about the cheapest ESP32 board that you know what you're getting.
The "camera" variant seems like a lot of bang for the buck.
As someone who is professionally interested in imaging now, these things are amazing. The very cheapest ones can make a simple 3d printer monitor, if you don't mind a terrible frame rate for your $3. Some of the higher-end ones are beginning to come out with 5-6 mpix autofocus modules. For imaging, you really need as much RAM (preferably built-in, not PSRAM through the SPI bus) as possible. I don't think that even the ESP-S3 has enough processing power to do "AI stuff" like object recognition on board, but the more expensive STM32H7 camera boards (WeAct do one) can. You're not going to run a YOLO large model on it, but it will do a bunch of processing on-board Stewart
On 2023-04-11 09:13, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
US ownership is fine:
There was a big fuss some years ago about the US government being able to force ISPs to provide access to users accounts, or something like that. I don't remember the specifics but it was enough that I went with a Canadian owned company. The situation may have changed since then and they may not have as easy access to peoples data as they did back then. -- Cheers! Kevin. https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | "Nerds make the shiny things that | distract the mouth-breathers, and Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | that's why we're powerful" #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 1:01 AM Kevin Cozens via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2023-04-11 09:13, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
US ownership is fine:
There was a big fuss some years ago about the US government being able to force ISPs to provide access to users accounts, or something like that. I don't remember the specifics but it was enough that I went with a Canadian owned company. The situation may have changed since then and they may not have as easy access to peoples data as they did back then.
AFAIK nothing has changed. IIRC part of the bruha was due to the IRS pushing its nose into 'everyone's' business. A US company is subject to US regulations so if their authorities say cough up - - - -well most companies find it far easier to just cough up. Doesn't matter that you are in Canuckistan and so is your company - - - - your data/website/whatever is NOT - - - - so you are now also subject to American regulations. IMO its bad enough trying to placate the powers that be here - - - - trying to keep a second set happy without that being a deliberate choice (actual physical export of product) - - - - my question would be why. So I would suggest that using an ISP based here is a good idea. (One never knows when some bureaucratic entity decides to go on a rampage - - - and its even harder to follow when its now not even part of one's national information system - - - - if you think I'm full of it - - - - look into the trucking industry and California and there is LOTS of freight moving to and from there from here.) Regards
Microsoft owned an Irish firm, and the US government made MS provide data from there, over Ireland's objections. If MS hadn't owned it, the US would have had to ask the Irish government to seize it, which apparently is more work that telling MS to surrender it. --dave On 4/14/23 06:54, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
On Fri, Apr 14, 2023 at 1:01 AM Kevin Cozens via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2023-04-11 09:13, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
US ownership is fine: There was a big fuss some years ago about the US government being able to force ISPs to provide access to users accounts, or something like that. I don't remember the specifics but it was enough that I went with a Canadian owned company. The situation may have changed since then and they may not have as easy access to peoples data as they did back then.
-- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain
CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.
not many options: planethoster out of MTL https://www.planethoster.com/en/The-Company On Mon, 10 Apr 2023 at 15:14, Stewart C. Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I know that Akamai Cloud (formerly Linode) has dedicated root Linux servers in Toronto, but is there anyone else non-terrible*? There's a potential client who absolutely must have all data and processing hosted in Canada. I realize there's probably a 3x (or more) premium for in-country hosting.
Any suggestions/caveats greatly appreciated.
Best Wishes, Stewart
*: your definition is fine. I don't know enough to have an opinion --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote on 2023-04-10 12:14:
I know that Akamai Cloud (formerly Linode) has dedicated root Linux servers in Toronto, but is there anyone else non-terrible*? There's a potential client who absolutely must have all data and processing hosted in Canada. I realize there's probably a 3x (or more) premium for in-country hosting.
Any suggestions/caveats greatly appreciated.
Promos abound for Linode via various Linux / OSS podcasts, i.e.: https://latenightlinux.com/
Go to https://linode.com/latenightlinux and get started with $100 credit.
There's also Canadian Web Hosting - not just located in Canada but Canadian-owned, from $7 CDN / month: https://www.canadianwebhosting.com/vps https://www.canadianwebhosting.com/hosting/compare_our_products/ I can only endorse the LNL podcast, no personal experience with any of these hosting providers... rb
On 4/10/23 15:14, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
I know that Akamai Cloud (formerly Linode) has dedicated root Linux servers in Toronto, but is there anyone else non-terrible*? There's a potential client who absolutely must have all data and processing hosted in Canada. I realize there's probably a 3x (or more) premium for in-country hosting.
Any suggestions/caveats greatly appreciated.
I have a few clients who also have requirements to have data hosted in Canada. AWS, Azure and DigitalOcean have Canadian based data centers. Not sure but I would bet that IBM's cloud offering also has the ability of hosting in Canada. Estrxture(https://www.estruxture.com/) is what use to be Peer1 also claims to have a cloud offering and have data centers in Toronto. -- Alvin Starr || land: (647)478-6285 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
On 2023-04-10 15:14, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
I know that Akamai Cloud (formerly Linode) has dedicated root Linux servers in Toronto, but is there anyone else non-terrible*? There's a potential client who absolutely must have all data and processing hosted in Canada. I realize there's probably a 3x (or more) premium for in-country hosting.
I use Canadian Web Hosting to host my web pages but I haven't used them for a dedicated servers. For dedicated servers I currently admin a machine that is provided by Linode. In the past I have used cari.net for dedicated servers. IIRC, cari.net prices were (and may still be) higher than other hosting companies. -- Cheers! Kevin. https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | "Nerds make the shiny things that | distract the mouth-breathers, and Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | that's why we're powerful" #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
On Mon, Apr 10, 2023 at 03:14:06PM -0400, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
I know that Akamai Cloud (formerly Linode) has dedicated root Linux servers in Toronto, but is there anyone else non-terrible*? There's a potential client who absolutely must have all data and processing hosted in Canada. I realize there's probably a 3x (or more) premium for in-country hosting.
Any suggestions/caveats greatly appreciated.
baremetal.ca They're in BC. The founder/owner was a member of VLUG back in 97ish. That's how I know of them. Never used their services, but am likely going to transfer some domains names to them when they get close to expiring. -- Znoteer znoteer@mailbox.org
On Tue, Apr 11, 2023 at 08:15:30PM -0400, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
On Tue., Apr. 11, 2023, 19:59 Znoteer via talk, <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
baremetal.ca
Thanks. They don't seem to offer servers, though. We also are settled on Digital Ocean.
Ah, sorry about that. Looks like they've evolved since 1997. Servers used to be their thing. Glad you found something that works. -- Znoteer znoteer@mailbox.org
Znoteer via talk wrote on 2023-04-11 16:58:
baremetal.ca They're in BC.
Cool - I hadn't heard of them. Oh, looks like they do "web hosting" but I don't see VPSs listed. Also, I just cannot do business with companies that think including emoji / smiley faces in official company documents is something one does. I may have an unpopular opinion on that matter, but it's not an incorrect opinion. Who's with me? There's room atop this hill for us all to die upon. rb
participants (12)
-
Alex Kink -
Alvin Starr -
BCLUG -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Dave Collier-Brown -
Don Tai -
Giles Orr -
Kevin Cozens -
o1bigtenor -
Stewart C. Russell -
Stewart Russell
-
Znoteer