distro support for 32-bit UEFI
I have a couple of devices with 64-bit Atom CPUs, built to be cheap Windows devices, that have 32-bit UEFI firmware. With no old-fashioned BIOS or emulation thereof. This seems to be intentional crippling by Intel: they only provide power management firmware in 32-bit mode. The devices I have are an Asus TF100 "convertible" (tablet with detachable keyboard) and a Dell Venue 8 Pro. The Intel / Microsoft idea seemed to be: build very inexpensive devices to compete with ARM / Android. But be careful to limit the damage to the market for full-fledged Windows systems. It worked to some extent. The Hugh idea was: cheap computers that should run Linux! Close, but no cigar yet. What I want is a 64-bit distro that can boot from 32-bit UEFI. That could be managed but it doesn't seem to be available now. (The 64-bit Linux kernel knows how to call 32-bit UEFI functions. This feature is not always enabled.) Almost as good would be a 32-bit distro that can boot from UEFI. After all, these cheap boxes are limited to 2G of RAM anyway (crippled: see above). Scott informed me that 32-bit Debian Jessie (8.0) does support UEFI. Wonderful! But I'm chicken: there is no 32-bit UEFI live image and I don't want to install without trying. After all, there may well be unsupported bits on these screwy devices. (Sadly Linux distros seem to be weak on touch, one of the strengths of these little devices.) These cheap devices come with very little "disk". Mine each have 32G; some have 16G; a few have more. That's not really enough space for both Linux and Windows. I have a netbook built in the same style, but with 64-bit UEFI. I've found 32G quite reasonable for Fedora Linux. <https://wiki.debian.org/UEFI> Another bit of news from Scott: the next generation of Atoms, or at least some of them, drop support for virtualization! What jerks.
| From: D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh@mimosa.com> | The devices I have are an Asus TF100 "convertible" (tablet with detachable | keyboard) Correction: Asus T100TAF
On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 3:26 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh@mimosa.com> wrote:
| From: D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh@mimosa.com>
| The devices I have are an Asus TF100 "convertible" (tablet with detachable | keyboard)
Correction: Asus T100TAF
I have Fedlet running on my Asus T100TA, but it's only 32-bit: https://www.happyassassin.net/fedlet-a-fedora-remix-for-bay-trail-tablets/ Mike
On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 03:22:09AM -0500, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
I have a couple of devices with 64-bit Atom CPUs, built to be cheap Windows devices, that have 32-bit UEFI firmware. With no old-fashioned BIOS or emulation thereof. This seems to be intentional crippling by Intel: they only provide power management firmware in 32-bit mode.
Actually I believe it is Microsoft's fault. Windows UEFI support requires the firmware to be the same as the OS bit size wise, and windows 64bit is bigger than 32bit and needs a bit more resources, and apparent;y a lot of these small amchines can't really handle 64bit. And besides they want you to buy a real big machine instead to get all that stuff. Also connected standby initially was only avaialble in the 32bit version of windows and was supposedly a required feature for some of these small machines (not sure if microsoft insisted they support it or the vendors actually wanted it). Linux doesn't care if UEFI is 32 or 64bit under a 32 or 64bit kernel. It just deals.
The devices I have are an Asus TF100 "convertible" (tablet with detachable keyboard) and a Dell Venue 8 Pro.
The Intel / Microsoft idea seemed to be: build very inexpensive devices to compete with ARM / Android. But be careful to limit the damage to the market for full-fledged Windows systems. It worked to some extent.
The Hugh idea was: cheap computers that should run Linux! Close, but no cigar yet.
What I want is a 64-bit distro that can boot from 32-bit UEFI. That could be managed but it doesn't seem to be available now. (The 64-bit Linux kernel knows how to call 32-bit UEFI functions. This feature is not always enabled.)
Debian certainly can do that.
Almost as good would be a 32-bit distro that can boot from UEFI. After all, these cheap boxes are limited to 2G of RAM anyway (crippled: see above).
Scott informed me that 32-bit Debian Jessie (8.0) does support UEFI. Wonderful! But I'm chicken: there is no 32-bit UEFI live image and I don't want to install without trying. After all, there may well be unsupported bits on these screwy devices. (Sadly Linux distros seem to be weak on touch, one of the strengths of these little devices.)
I believe the only debian image with 32bit UEFI support is the multiarch netinstall image. I used it on some wacky intel development board for an embedded atom which only had 32bit UEFI. I installed 64bit debian with the 32bit UEFI boot.
These cheap devices come with very little "disk". Mine each have 32G; some have 16G; a few have more. That's not really enough space for both Linux and Windows.
I have a netbook built in the same style, but with 64-bit UEFI. I've found 32G quite reasonable for Fedora Linux.
<https://wiki.debian.org/UEFI>
Another bit of news from Scott: the next generation of Atoms, or at least some of them, drop support for virtualization! What jerks.
-- Len Sorensen
On Thu, Nov 19, 2015 at 11:31:34AM -0500, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
I believe the only debian image with 32bit UEFI support is the multiarch netinstall image. I used it on some wacky intel development board for an embedded atom which only had 32bit UEFI. I installed 64bit debian with the 32bit UEFI boot.
https://wiki.debian.org/UEFI#Support_for_mixed-mode_systems:_64-bit_system_w... -- Len Sorensen
On 19/11/15 03:22 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
Scott informed me that 32-bit Debian Jessie (8.0) does support UEFI. Wonderful! But I'm chicken: there is no 32-bit UEFI live image and I don't want to install without trying. After all, there may well be unsupported bits on these screwy devices. (Sadly Linux distros seem to be weak on touch, one of the strengths of these little devices.)
Hi Hugh, I actually took a run at this properly a few weeks ago. In my case I was playing around with a pair setop box like devices I own. Finding #1 The 32bit UEFI support is in the Multi-Arch iso. Finding #2 The nightly and daily builds seem to be broken at this time. Grub fails to find it's own menu. (GRUB has uefi support). Finding #3 The 8.2 multi-arch ISO boots, and then things blow up from there, with questionable kernel / hardware support. Hence why I was trying the nightlies. So... Yeah, I'm going to need to revisit this, but the road seems to be there, just some real holes to fill in first. -- Scott Sullivan
Just revisited the whole 64-bit debian on 32-bit UEFI thing tonight. Using the 8.4.0 stable multi-arch DVD, I was able to get a clean install on first of my baytrail devices that I tried. It did not find my SDIO wireless card, but I expected to have to fight with that. Post install reboot went just fine. I'll try my other device another day, but expecting similar results. On 11/20/2015 10:31 PM, Scott Sullivan wrote:
On 19/11/15 03:22 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
Scott informed me that 32-bit Debian Jessie (8.0) does support UEFI. Wonderful! But I'm chicken: there is no 32-bit UEFI live image and I don't want to install without trying. After all, there may well be unsupported bits on these screwy devices. (Sadly Linux distros seem to be weak on touch, one of the strengths of these little devices.)
Hi Hugh,
I actually took a run at this properly a few weeks ago. In my case I was playing around with a pair setop box like devices I own.
Finding #1
The 32bit UEFI support is in the Multi-Arch iso.
Finding #2
The nightly and daily builds seem to be broken at this time. Grub fails to find it's own menu. (GRUB has uefi support).
Finding #3
The 8.2 multi-arch ISO boots, and then things blow up from there, with questionable kernel / hardware support. Hence why I was trying the nightlies.
So...
Yeah, I'm going to need to revisit this, but the road seems to be there, just some real holes to fill in first.
| From: Scott Sullivan <scott@ss.org> | | Using the 8.4.0 stable multi-arch DVD, I was able to get a clean install on | first of my baytrail devices that I tried. It did not find my SDIO wireless | card, but I expected to have to fight with that. Great news! Is this what you used? <http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/8.4.0/multi-arch/iso-dvd/debian-8.4.0-i386-amd64-source-DVD-1.iso> If it is multiarch install, why does it have "source" in its name? Does it really support exactly two architectures, i386 and AMD64? Can this image be dd'ed to a USB stick and booted from that? The documentation sys that is possible for i386 and AMD64, but does not mention multiarch. I hope you come to dinner so I can get you to show me on one of my computers.
On April 12, 2016 3:04:59 PM EDT, "D. Hugh Redelmeier" <hugh@mimosa.com> wrote:
| From: Scott Sullivan <scott@ss.org> | | Using the 8.4.0 stable multi-arch DVD, I was able to get a clean install on | first of my baytrail devices that I tried. It did not find my SDIO wireless | card, but I expected to have to fight with that.
Great news!
Is this what you used? <http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/8.4.0/multi-arch/iso-dvd/debian-8.4.0-i386-amd64-source-DVD-1.iso>
Just checked, that is the one.
If it is multiarch install, why does it have "source" in its name?
Can't tell from the website, but maybe this dvd also has the source packages?
Does it really support exactly two architectures, i386 and AMD64?
Can this image be dd'ed to a USB stick and booted from that? The documentation sys that is possible for i386 and AMD64, but does not mention multiarch.
That's what I did and the procedure listed in the installation guide. At the boot menu I selected 64bit graphical install. At the boot loader install I witnessed it installing the needed 32bit uefi grub binaries. This was the expected result based on the docs. https://wiki.debian.org/UEFI#A32-bit_x86_PC_.28i386.29_support_for_UEFI
I hope you come to dinner so I can get you to show me on one of my computers.
See ya there!
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Scott Sullivan
On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 03:04:59PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
Great news!
Is this what you used? <http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/8.4.0/multi-arch/iso-dvd/debian-8.4.0-i386-amd64-source-DVD-1.iso>
If it is multiarch install, why does it have "source" in its name?
That one might do the job, but I always use the much smaller netinst image. The one you found will do a pretty standard base install on i386 or amd64 and also includes the source code for all the packages it includes.
Does it really support exactly two architectures, i386 and AMD64?
Can this image be dd'ed to a USB stick and booted from that? The documentation sys that is possible for i386 and AMD64, but does not mention multiarch.
I hope you come to dinner so I can get you to show me on one of my computers.
I always use this one: http://cdimage.debian.org/debian-cd/8.4.0/multi-arch/iso-cd/debian-8.4.0-amd... I have certainly used that before to install 64 bit debian on a 32 bit UEFI system. That one can certainly be dd'd onto a USB key. I believe almost all debian installer iso files can. According to https://wiki.debian.org/UEFI: "Debian Jessie (8.0) was the first Linux distribution to include full support for mixed-mode UEFI installation on these machines. The multi-arch installation media (available in netinst and DVD form) include the UEFI boot loaders neceesary for both i386 and amd64 boot. By selecting "64-bit install" from the initial boot menu, debian-installer will install a 64-bit (amd64) version of Debian. The system will automatically detect that the underlying UEFI firmware is 32-bit and will install the appropriate version of grub-efi to work with it." -- Len Sorensen
participants (4)
-
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Lennart Sorensen -
Michael Hill -
Scott Sullivan