Hi folks, Sharing the start of what has been a creatively interesting discussion on the Debian list. No idea where the person is in the world, but all the stuff felt globally after cloudstrike was the motivation. Here is part of the post. What answer would you give? Kare ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 11:54:06 +0800 Subject: why reliable linux hasn't gained more market share? Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Jul 2024 04:27:37 +0000 (UTC) Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org crowdstrike makes news headlines, many Windows become blue screens it is evident that many people around still use Windows according to some statistics linux has only 4% desktop market, 73% for MS, 15% for MacOS why free OS hasn't gained more share even after 30 years of development?
Karen Lewellen via talk wrote on 2024-07-22 18:44:
crowdstrike makes news headlines, many Windows become blue screens
https://www.techspot.com/news/103899-crowdstrike-also-broke-debian-rocky-lin...
Amid the turmoil, it is instructive to consider a little-noticed event earlier this year when a CrowdStrike update caused all Debian Linux servers to crash simultaneously and refuse to boot. It took the cybersecurity provider weeks to provide a root cause analysis, revealing that the update was incompatible with the latest stable version of Debian.
This CrowdStrike incident affected Windows, but these types of issues can affect anything.
it is evident that many people around still use Windows
according to some statistics linux has only 4% desktop market, 73% for MS, 15% for MacOS
why free OS hasn't gained more share even after 30 years of development? Because Big Box retailers don't sell Linux pre-installed on computers.
The power of being the default is incalculable. Google spends ~$18,000,000,000 USD per *year* to be the default search engine in Safari (and on iPhones?) - that's how enormously important the default is. Of course, in the server market, especially for internet (vs intranet / corporate internal) sites, Linux dominates. Linux used to ship with WINE (Wine Is Not an Emulator) for Windows compatibility. Now, Windows can install WSL (Windows' Subsystem for Linux), which is a complete Linux-within-Windows environment. Gotta keep the developers who require node.js, git, ssh, etc. on the Windows platform, even if it's Linux inside Windows. Many a modern developer how-to guide will give instructions in bash instead of cmd.exe commands, as that's how things are done in "production". MS is clever enough to realize that. rb
Actually I'm REALLY GLAD that linux owns such a tiny share of the desktop PC market. This means that evil virus hackers have almost ZERO incentive to invest their time crafting attacks on linux desktops. I would say that one reason for the lack of linux desktop dominance, is the huge barrier of the tightly integrated Microsoft app suite. What business or individual person would want to wrestle with the challenge of trying to ensure linux app compatibility with the far larger Windows app world ?? Saving dollars by avoiding MS licensing fees would never justify the ongoing nit-picky nightmare of coping with app incompatibilities (word processing, spreadsheet, database etc.) between Windows and linux. And where are the tens of thousands of linux specialists who could be hired to provide support to millions of linux desktop end users ?? * * * * * * My last Windows PC was / is an ancient Dell clunker still running WinXP. I boot up that creaker occasionally to fetch a file from my past. USB and email are my methods of WinXP / Debian connectivity. It was when Microsoft told me I would lose compatibility with many of my WinXP apps, when I moved on to post-XP Windows, that I decided to become a linux rebel. I've been a happy Debian desktop user for many years. But then I am a retired software engineer who enjoys messing around with linux. I have been retired for two (2) decades and almost never need to share documents with Windows PC users. The Open Office suite does seem to offer pretty good Windows app file support. We can be eternally grateful to the U.S. government for having blessed the world with the public-domain PDF standard. For me as a linux desktop PC user, PDF and email are the foundations of interoperability with other people. For sure, GTALUG has been a vital source of linux advice. I'm impressed almost every day, by the depth and breadth of knowledge GTALUG participants demonstrate. Way beyond the walls of plain linux. * * * * * * Ron / BCLUG has pointed out, the incalculable power of Windows as default. Let's not forget the Google default, either. Go shopping for a tablet computer and you will invariably wind up using Android. A friend of mine bought an Android tablet to replace her Windows notebook when that died. She has regaled me with stories of her being mystified / confused / maddened with Android weirdnes-es. * * * * * * What amazes me about the latest CrowdStrike fiasco, is how TERRIBLY FRAGILE is the entire computing ecosphere. How has it happened that we humans have configured our so very very vital software infrastructure, such that a single company can make a single mistake, and take down such a huge portion of the world's PC asset base ?? Steve Petrie Etobicoke (Toronto), Ontario, Canada apetrie@aspetrie.net -------- Original Message -------- SUBJECT: Re: [GTALUG] why reliable linux hasn't gained more market share? DATE: 2024-07-23 00:45 FROM: Ron / BCLUG via talk <talk@gtalug.org> TO: talk@gtalug.org Karen Lewellen via talk wrote on 2024-07-22 18:44:
crowdstrike makes news headlines, many Windows become blue screens
https://www.techspot.com/news/103899-crowdstrike-also-broke-debian-rocky-lin...
Amid the turmoil, it is instructive to consider a little-noticed event earlier this year when a CrowdStrike update caused all Debian Linux servers to crash simultaneously and refuse to boot. It took the cybersecurity provider weeks to provide a root cause analysis, revealing that the update was incompatible with the latest stable version of Debian.
This CrowdStrike incident affected Windows, but these types of issues can affect anything.
it is evident that many people around still use Windows
according to some statistics linux has only 4% desktop market, 73% for MS, 15% for MacOS
why free OS hasn't gained more share even after 30 years of development? Because Big Box retailers don't sell Linux pre-installed on computers.
The power of being the default is incalculable. Google spends ~$18,000,000,000 USD per *year* to be the default search engine in Safari (and on iPhones?) - that's how enormously important the default is. Of course, in the server market, especially for internet (vs intranet / corporate internal) sites, Linux dominates. Linux used to ship with WINE (Wine Is Not an Emulator) for Windows compatibility. Now, Windows can install WSL (Windows' Subsystem for Linux), which is a complete Linux-within-Windows environment. Gotta keep the developers who require node.js, git, ssh, etc. on the Windows platform, even if it's Linux inside Windows. Many a modern developer how-to guide will give instructions in bash instead of cmd.exe commands, as that's how things are done in "production". MS is clever enough to realize that. rb --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Are we talking Linux on the desktop, which I agree is a tiny percentage, or Linux in the datacenter which is the dominant in every situation? Desktop Linux is tiny because there is a lot of fragmentation and no single unified system behind it. Linux in the DC is one of 4 or 5 choices, and experienced sysadmins don’t care that much about distro wars anymore as long as whatever they are using have enterprise support. I disagree regarding the hackers statement, I have been dealing with hackers in Linux since the early 2000s, their attack surface is huge due to things like PHP, badly configured databases… etc. And the “quality” of the attacks are getting better. Which is the same for modern versions of Windows, you hardly ever attack the OS, you attack services, the fact that Windows has a ton of deeply integrated services makes the discussion complicated -nick On Tue, Jul 23, 2024 at 10:47 Steve Petrie via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
*Actually I'm REALLY GLAD that linux owns such a tiny share of the desktop PC market. This means that evil virus hackers have almost ZERO incentive to invest their time crafting attacks on linux desktops.*
I would say that one reason for the lack of linux desktop dominance, is the huge barrier of the tightly integrated Microsoft app suite.
What business or individual person would want to wrestle with the challenge of trying to ensure linux app compatibility with the far larger Windows app world *??*
Saving dollars by avoiding MS licensing fees would never justify the ongoing nit-picky nightmare of coping with app incompatibilities (word processing, spreadsheet, database etc.) between Windows and linux.
And where are the tens of thousands of linux specialists who could be hired to provide support to millions of linux desktop end users *??*
* * * * * *
My last Windows PC was / is an ancient Dell clunker still running WinXP. I boot up that creaker occasionally to fetch a file from my past. USB and email are my methods of WinXP / Debian connectivity.
It was when Microsoft told me I would lose compatibility with many of my WinXP apps, when I moved on to post-XP Windows, that I decided to become a linux rebel.
I've been a happy Debian desktop user for many years. But then I am a retired software engineer who enjoys messing around with linux.
I have been retired for two (2) decades and almost never need to share documents with Windows PC users. The Open Office suite does seem to offer pretty good Windows app file support.
We can be eternally grateful to the U.S. government for having blessed the world with the public-domain PDF standard. For me as a linux desktop PC user, PDF and email are the foundations of interoperability with other people.
For sure, GTALUG has been a vital source of linux advice. I'm impressed almost every day, by the depth and breadth of knowledge GTALUG participants demonstrate. Way beyond the walls of plain linux.
* * * * * *
Ron / BCLUG has pointed out, the incalculable power of Windows as default.
Let's not forget the Google default, either. Go shopping for a tablet computer and you will invariably wind up using Android.
A friend of mine bought an Android tablet to replace her Windows notebook when that died. She has regaled me with stories of her being mystified / confused / maddened with Android weirdnes-es.
* * * * * *
*What amazes me about the latest CrowdStrike fiasco, is how TERRIBLY FRAGILE is the entire computing ecosphere.*
How has it happened that we humans have configured our so very very vital software infrastructure, such that a single company can make a single mistake, and take down such a huge portion of the world's PC asset base *??*
*Steve Petrie*
Etobicoke (Toronto), Ontario, Canada
apetrie@aspetrie.net
-------- Original Message -------- Subject: Re: [GTALUG] why reliable linux hasn't gained more market share? Date: 2024-07-23 00:45 From: Ron / BCLUG via talk <talk@gtalug.org> To: talk@gtalug.org
Karen Lewellen via talk wrote on 2024-07-22 18:44:
crowdstrike makes news headlines, many Windows become blue screens
https://www.techspot.com/news/103899-crowdstrike-also-broke-debian-rocky-lin...
Amid the turmoil, it is instructive to consider a little-noticed event earlier this year when a CrowdStrike update caused all Debian Linux servers to crash simultaneously and refuse to boot. It took the cybersecurity provider weeks to provide a root cause analysis, revealing that the update was incompatible with the latest stable version of Debian.
This CrowdStrike incident affected Windows, but these types of issues can affect anything.
it is evident that many people around still use Windows
according to some statistics linux has only 4% desktop market, 73% for MS, 15% for MacOS
why free OS hasn't gained more share even after 30 years of development?
Because Big Box retailers don't sell Linux pre-installed on computers.
The power of being the default is incalculable.
Google spends ~$18,000,000,000 USD per *year* to be the default search engine in Safari (and on iPhones?) - that's how enormously important the default is.
Of course, in the server market, especially for internet (vs intranet / corporate internal) sites, Linux dominates.
Linux used to ship with WINE (Wine Is Not an Emulator) for Windows compatibility.
Now, Windows can install WSL (Windows' Subsystem for Linux), which is a complete Linux-within-Windows environment.
Gotta keep the developers who require node.js, git, ssh, etc. on the Windows platform, even if it's Linux inside Windows.
Many a modern developer how-to guide will give instructions in bash instead of cmd.exe commands, as that's how things are done in "production".
MS is clever enough to realize that.
rb --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Steve Petrie via talk wrote on 2024-07-23 07:47:
Actually I'm REALLY GLAD that linux owns such a tiny share of the desktop PC market. This means that evil virus hackers have almost ZERO incentive to invest their time crafting attacks on linux desktops.
I'd say you've got it backwards - the high value targets are the servers more so than the desktops. Banks, telecomms, etc. One successful hack there could be a gold mine, where a single user's desktop is kinda useless small potatoes. rb
On 2024-07-24 20:41, Ron / BCLUG via talk wrote:
Steve Petrie via talk wrote on 2024-07-23 07:47:
Actually I'm REALLY GLAD that linux owns such a tiny share of the desktop PC market. This means that evil virus hackers have almost ZERO incentive to invest their time crafting attacks on linux desktops.
I'd say you've got it backwards - the high value targets are the servers more so than the desktops.
We used to worry a lot about someone getting into a salesperson's laptop, and using that to get to our backbone. We created a windows-only network for them, with mandatory access control and physical separation. At least one closely-regulated customer wouldn't let anything /intel/, much less PC, onto their back end networks Only a colleague and I who had SPARC laptops had direct access to the data center from the outside. Everyone else had to log in to a gateway box and work from the command-line. (For some reason they didn't have Macs) The underlying problem is called "transitive trust", where the attacker works through layer after layer because they each trust him/a bit too much/. And the first step is always a salesperson's laptop (:-)) --dave -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain
participants (5)
-
David Collier-Brown -
Karen Lewellen -
Nick Accad -
Ron / BCLUG -
Steve Petrie