Recommendations for useful laptop suitable for Ubuntu
Greetings, My Windows 10 laptop died pretty close to its fifth birthday, so I'm planning on replacing it with a Linux laptop. I've used it for conference calls (hosting the Toronto Perlmongers meeings), and some light Libre Office work, so I need something better than a Bare Bones laptop, but not as wicked as a big fat gamer's rig. Refurbished is OK, and pre-loaded with Linux is also fine. Budget is perhaps $600-$800. Thanks! -- Alex Beamish Software Developer / https://ca.linkedin.com/in/alex-beamish-5111ba3 Speaker Wrangler / Toronto Perlmongers / http://to.pm.org/ Baritone, Operations Manager / Toronto Northern Lights, 2013 Champions / www.northernlightschorus.com
On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 at 23:18, Alex Beamish via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Greetings,
My Windows 10 laptop died pretty close to its fifth birthday, so I'm planning on replacing it with a Linux laptop. I've used it for conference calls (hosting the Toronto Perlmongers meeings), and some light Libre Office work, so I need something better than a Bare Bones laptop, but not as wicked as a big fat gamer's rig.
Refurbished is OK, and pre-loaded with Linux is also fine. Budget is perhaps $600-$800.
Dell Latitude E7270 Ultrabook 12.5" FHD Touchscreen Core i7-6600U-2.6GHz works quite well with Ubuntu 18.04. Unfortunately, it is now out of stock at refurb.io, and Newegg only has Grade B refurbished units. https://ca.refurb.io/products/dell-latitude-e7270-12-5-fhd-touchscreen-core-i7-6600u-2-6ghz-8gb-512gb-ssd-windows-10-pro-refurbished?_pos=2&_sid=47f9616fe&_ss=r
On Mon, 15 Jul 2019 00:26:58 -0400 Val Kulkov via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 at 23:18, Alex Beamish via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Greetings, My Windows 10 laptop died pretty close to its fifth birthday, so I'm planning on replacing it with a Linux laptop. I've used it for conference calls (hosting the Toronto Perlmongers meeings), and some light Libre Office work, so I need something better than a Bare Bones laptop, but not as wicked as a big fat gamer's rig. Refurbished is OK, and pre-loaded with Linux is also fine. Budget is perhaps $600-$800. Dell Latitude E7270 Ultrabook 12.5" FHD Touchscreen Core i7-6600U-2.6GHz works quite well with Ubuntu 18.04. Unfortunately, it is now out of stock at refurb.io, and Newegg only has Grade B refurbished units.
Had bad experience with Dell (battery blew up and main boards burned out), but I have had (and have) HP laptops, they work fantastic with Linux. Also, imho, when getting a laptop it is silly to get a puny small screen (otherwise get a pad) laptop screens must be at least 15 Inches and prefer 17"+ - size IS important :) 2c Andre
If you wish for a reliable laptop, then I also recommend a Lenovo Thinkpad, which I have been running Ubuntu for a long time. That said, this does not extend to all Lenovos. Their consumer line is not as robust. A consumer Lenovo came to me recently, the screen was so flimsy and unsupported, no wonder the screen broke. Not all Lenovos are created equally. On Mon, 15 Jul 2019 at 10:47, Lennart Sorensen via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 08:38:37AM -0400, James Knott via talk wrote:
Lenovo ThinkPads tend to be good. I have an E520.
Certainly what I am sticking with too.
-- Len Sorensen --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 2019-07-15 10:56 AM, Don Tai via talk wrote:
If you wish for a reliable laptop, then I also recommend a Lenovo Thinkpad, which I have been running Ubuntu for a long time.
That said, this does not extend to all Lenovos. Their consumer line is not as robust. A consumer Lenovo came to me recently, the screen was so flimsy and unsupported, no wonder the screen broke. Not all Lenovos are created equally.
That's why I said ThinkPad, not just Lenovo.
On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 10:56:41AM -0400, Don Tai via talk wrote:
If you wish for a reliable laptop, then I also recommend a Lenovo Thinkpad, which I have been running Ubuntu for a long time.
That said, this does not extend to all Lenovos. Their consumer line is not as robust. A consumer Lenovo came to me recently, the screen was so flimsy and unsupported, no wonder the screen broke. Not all Lenovos are created equally.
Yeah we bought an ideapad once. Never doing that again. What my wife's T430 has gone through is nuts while still working. Yesterday the (almost) 2 year old was standing on it (it was closed). Still working, although it appears the chasis may be slightly bent now. I believe he is about 35 pounds. Poor thinkpad. Not to mention how many times it has been pushed onto the floor from the coffee table, yanked by the power cord, had things stacked on it, etc. -- Len Sorensen
On 2019-07-15 12:41 p.m., Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
What my wife's T430 has gone through is nuts while still working.
Yesterday the (almost) 2 year old was standing on it (it was closed). Still working, although it appears the chasis may be slightly bent now. I believe he is about 35 pounds. Poor thinkpad.
Not to mention how many times it has been pushed onto the floor from the coffee table, yanked by the power cord, had things stacked on it, etc.
At Hugh's suggestion, I bought a T440 a while ago. It came with all the old connectors (eg, VGA) and the new ones (mini hdmi) and socketed memory, so I could order it with 32GB and not have to futz with anything. The only problem is that it looks old-fashioned (:-() --dave -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.
On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 06:08:35PM +0000, Dave Collier-Brown via talk wrote:
At Hugh's suggestion, I bought a T440 a while ago. It came with all the old connectors (eg, VGA) and the new ones (mini hdmi) and socketed memory, so I could order it with 32GB and not have to futz with anything.
The only problem is that it looks old-fashioned (:-()
And the missing physical buttons for the trackpoint on that unfortunate generation. -- Len Sorensen
On 2019-07-15 2:21 p.m., Lennart Sorensen wrote:
On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 06:08:35PM +0000, Dave Collier-Brown via talk wrote:
At Hugh's suggestion, I bought a T440 a while ago. It came with all the old connectors (eg, VGA) and the new ones (mini hdmi) and socketed memory, so I could order it with 32GB and not have to futz with anything.
The only problem is that it looks old-fashioned (:-() And the missing physical buttons for the trackpoint on that unfortunate generation.
Yes: I have a Microsoft extra-tiny mouse for travel, and a pair of wired regular mice for work and home. I use the trackpad only in emergencies. --dave -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.
On 2019-07-15 8:38 a.m., James Knott via talk wrote:
On 2019-07-14 11:18 PM, Alex Beamish via talk wrote:
Refurbished is OK, and pre-loaded with Linux is also fine. Budget is perhaps $600-$800.
Lenovo ThinkPads tend to be good. I have an E520.
For Thinkpads, even the Thinkpad line varies in quality, the T and X series being the go-to business models. Check the mil spec testing on https://psref.lenovo.com/syspool/Sys/i_pdf/ThinkPad.pdf This should cover a little bit of sand getting in your bag, leaving your machine in your trunk overnight in the winter or on your car seat durning the day in the summer, putting it in a motorcycle panier, etc... Not all Thinkpads get the rating, and it makes me wonder, since the rating seems a pretty low bar, if the models without it, simply didn't pass? (I have horrible luck picking laptops for Linux compatibility, so I'm no real help beyond this. My next hunt, I'm going to ask a kernel developer what they use, or what Linux companies are giving employees, I don't have time to troubleshoot stuff anymore.) -Mike
| From: Alex Beamish via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | My Windows 10 laptop died pretty close to its fifth birthday, so I'm | planning on replacing it with a Linux laptop. I gave a lightning talk to GTALUG on how I ideosyncratically choose a notebook. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-mCQphZBuI&t=776s> Note the late Peter Hiscocks in the front row, on my right. I miss him. You can hear him laugh at 10:20 in. I would not disavow much. The current Atom-based processors are not as bad as the older Baytrail ones. You still probably want something more powerful. I've got a few cheap cheap Atom-base toys with remarkably OK displays. Why are you replacing it? Some, but not all, five year old laptops are still fine. What about it isn't as good as you would like? Exactly which qualities of a notebook matter to you? (You may not actually know without living with one for a while.) Linux: most notebooks run Linux without issue. Or with minor issues (no support for fingerprint reader doesn't bother me). Exotic notebooks may have more problems. Google to check if people have tried a model you are thinking about. Battery: My main laptop is just over five years old. It has a Haswell family processor. My impression is that previous Intel generations are significantly worse at power consumption during sleep. Later generations aren't enough better for me to switch. A 5-year-old notebook may or may not have a worn-out battery. And a worn out battery may be expensive enough that you don't want to put the money into the old notebook. Maintainability vs lightness: Light notebooks are a joy, mostly when carrying them around, but also on your lap. Ultrabooks(tm) are the example. But ultrabooks are very hard to maintain. Generally you cannot replace the battery, you cannot upgrade the RAM, you cannot fix most problems The opposite of an ultrabook is a classic ThinkPad (not a ThinkPad ultrabook). You can pretty much fix anything with enough time. And Lenovo produces manuals to support this. Size: only you can decide what size you want. It matters a lot. Sometimes in ways you don't know until you live with one. Screen resolution: there are high resolution screens, all the way up to UltraHD (3840x2160), but that's not cheap. To me, anything less than FullHD (1920x1080) is unfortunate. In particular, the standard 1366x768 is not something I'd live with (except if the screen is 10" or smaller). Screen quality: IPS is good; TN is bad (unless you are a gamer who obsesses about latency). Screen quality is something that is hard to be 100% sure of without carefully looking at the notebook. But "IPS" is a pretty simple marker. Touch: it matters to some of us and not to others. I have it and rarely use it. | I've used it for conference | calls (hosting the Toronto Perlmongers meeings), and some light Libre | Office work, so I need something better than a Bare Bones laptop, but not | as wicked as a big fat gamer's rig. I think that all current notebooks can do that. It doesn't sound you actually need portability. | Refurbished is OK, and pre-loaded with Linux is also fine. Budget is | perhaps $600-$800. One source for used ones is Bauer. They have a lot of used ThinkPads passing through. Here's their inventory / price list. <https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1-hKAmQahPcEV_h5mwflWGLWCQtqkKOBDbsakv4ee2u0/edit#gid=0> I've only bought one thing from them, a monitor. See this thread: <http://forums.redflagdeals.com/bauer-systems-refurb-new-laptops-desktops-monitors-ssd-tablets-phone-mini-buying-guide-2167072>
On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 10:09 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk < talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| From: Alex Beamish via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
| My Windows 10 laptop died pretty close to its fifth birthday, so I'm | planning on replacing it with a Linux laptop.
I gave a lightning talk to GTALUG on how I ideosyncratically choose a notebook. <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-mCQphZBuI&t=776s> Note the late Peter Hiscocks in the front row, on my right. I miss him. You can hear him laugh at 10:20 in.
Thanks for the link .. I look forward to watching.
I would not disavow much. The current Atom-based processors are not as bad as the older Baytrail ones. You still probably want something more powerful. I've got a few cheap cheap Atom-base toys with remarkably OK displays.
Why are you replacing it? Some, but not all, five year old laptops are still fine. What about it isn't as good as you would like?
It worked fine at the June meeting of the Perlmongers, sharing a Google Hangouts session. The next day, it wouldn't boot -- couldn't even get it to POST. I plan to buy the appropriate HD -> USB gadget to recover a few files; I assume there's little I can do to repair it.
Exactly which qualities of a notebook matter to you? (You may not actually know without living with one for a while.)
Good question. [] Decent speed -- I did some Audacity editing on my laptop when my workstation died, and my goodness was that slow. [] Decent wifi -- the HP Pavillion's Wifi receiver was pretty temperamental. [] Decent battery -- no complaints about the HP, it would last two hours+ on a charge. That's enough for me. [] HDMI output -- I can get by on just the laptop screen, but I do like to have the ability to have multiple screens. [] Reasonable size -- I think the HP Pavillion had a 14" screen, and that fit into my knapsack nicely. I don't need a gigantic screen. -- Alex Beamish Software Developer / https://ca.linkedin.com/in/alex-beamish-5111ba3 Speaker Wrangler / Toronto Perlmongers / http://to.pm.org/ Baritone, Operations Manager / Toronto Northern Lights, 2013 Champions / www.northernlightschorus.com
On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 11:06:51AM -0400, Alex Beamish via talk wrote:
It worked fine at the June meeting of the Perlmongers, sharing a Google Hangouts session. The next day, it wouldn't boot -- couldn't even get it to POST.
Hard to say. My wife did have her T430 stop turning on a few years ago. My solution was to buy another T430 on kijiji and swap parts to make it work again (hers has a better screen and ram, the other had a working motherboard, hers had working speakers, the other didn't, hers had backlit keyboard, the other didn't). Getting parts for a 3+ year old thinkpad T series is simple due to how many off lease machines are on the market.
I plan to buy the appropriate HD -> USB gadget to recover a few files; I assume there's little I can do to repair it.
Should work great.
[] Decent speed -- I did some Audacity editing on my laptop when my workstation died, and my goodness was that slow. [] Decent wifi -- the HP Pavillion's Wifi receiver was pretty temperamental. [] Decent battery -- no complaints about the HP, it would last two hours+ on a charge. That's enough for me. [] HDMI output -- I can get by on just the laptop screen, but I do like to have the ability to have multiple screens. [] Reasonable size -- I think the HP Pavillion had a 14" screen, and that fit into my knapsack nicely. I don't need a gigantic screen.
Well speed depends on the CPU and RAM. I have never had wifi issues on a thinkpad, but I have only ever got one with the highest intel wifi option. Never the cheaper thinkpad wifi (I think they were atheros based) option. Battery life seems to have gotten better and better with each generation. Some cleaim 10 or 15 hours now, while 5 years ago 2 or 3 hours was more likely. For HDMI, in the case of thinkpads, everything up to and including the Tx60 has mini displayport and needs a passive adapter to get HDMI. Tx70 and higher has HDMI ports. I believe the Tx70 also has a USB-C thunderbolt port which provides the same abilities as the mini display port did in terms of supporting various types of video output. -- Len Sorensen
On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 01:42:34PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 11:06:51AM -0400, Alex Beamish via talk wrote:
It worked fine at the June meeting of the Perlmongers, sharing a Google Hangouts session. The next day, it wouldn't boot -- couldn't even get it to POST.
Hard to say. My wife did have her T430 stop turning on a few years ago. My solution was to buy another T430 on kijiji and swap parts to make it work again (hers has a better screen and ram, the other had a working motherboard, hers had working speakers, the other didn't, hers had backlit keyboard, the other didn't). Getting parts for a 3+ year old thinkpad T series is simple due to how many off lease machines are on the market.
I plan to buy the appropriate HD -> USB gadget to recover a few files; I assume there's little I can do to repair it.
Should work great.
[] Decent speed -- I did some Audacity editing on my laptop when my workstation died, and my goodness was that slow. [] Decent wifi -- the HP Pavillion's Wifi receiver was pretty temperamental. [] Decent battery -- no complaints about the HP, it would last two hours+ on a charge. That's enough for me. [] HDMI output -- I can get by on just the laptop screen, but I do like to have the ability to have multiple screens. [] Reasonable size -- I think the HP Pavillion had a 14" screen, and that fit into my knapsack nicely. I don't need a gigantic screen.
Well speed depends on the CPU and RAM.
I have never had wifi issues on a thinkpad, but I have only ever got one with the highest intel wifi option. Never the cheaper thinkpad wifi (I think they were atheros based) option.
Battery life seems to have gotten better and better with each generation. Some cleaim 10 or 15 hours now, while 5 years ago 2 or 3 hours was more likely.
For HDMI, in the case of thinkpads, everything up to and including the Tx60 has mini displayport and needs a passive adapter to get HDMI. Tx70 and higher has HDMI ports. I believe the Tx70 also has a USB-C thunderbolt port which provides the same abilities as the mini display port did in terms of supporting various types of video output.
This actually might be a really good deal: https://www.lenovo.com/ca/en/perkopolisca/laptops/thinkpad/thinkpad-t-series... Brand new T570 (apparently they still have a few left of the older model), 8GB ram, 256GB SSD, Core i5-6300U, 15.6" 1920x1080 screen (I can't find if that is IPS or not). In fact they have a lot of decent sales on different models right now if your budget was willing to move to $900 to $1000. But then you are talking new with warranty, not used. I would avoid the s variants (they are the slim models, which makes them harder to fix, harder to upgrade, and usually more expensive in general). But T470, T480, T570, and T580 are all nice. The new x90/x95 models are probably too new to have decent prices. -- Len Sorensen
| From: Alex Beamish via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 10:09 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk < | talk@gtalug.org> wrote: | It worked fine at the June meeting of the Perlmongers, sharing a Google | Hangouts session. The next day, it wouldn't boot -- couldn't even get it to | POST. Usually it is something simple. Like a connector that has some oxidation. But it is a lot of work to disassemble laptops with no promise of success. HP "business class" notebooks tried to compete on quality and features with ThinkPads. My impression was that they were quite good. HP consumer notebooks are quite a mixed bag. Many were built as cheaply as possible. | > Exactly which qualities of a notebook matter to you? (You may not | > actually know without living with one for a while.) | > | | Good question. | [] Decent speed -- I did some Audacity editing on my laptop when my | workstation died, and my goodness was that slow. Most 5 year old notebooks had HDDs. Now only SSDs make sense and they are a lot faster. Was disk I/O the factor slowing your old machine down with audacity? Processors haven't gotten much faster. They do have more cores. I don't know if audacity exploits multiple cores. | [] Decent wifi -- the HP Pavillion's Wifi receiver was pretty temperamental. WiFi drivers can be a problem area with Linux. Not very often. You want to be sure that the WiFi adapter supports 2.4G and 5.0G bands. | [] Decent battery -- no complaints about the HP, it would last two hours+ | on a charge. That's enough for me. The only current notebooks with less than about 4hrs of battery life are some gaming notebooks. Normal new laptops seem to have claims of 6-10hr battery life. | [] HDMI output -- I can get by on just the laptop screen, but I do like to | have the ability to have multiple screens. Pretty universal, except for notebooks that have "better" interfaces. For those execptions you need a dongle. - DisplayPort / mini DisplayPort have simple HDMI dongles (unless you want HDMI 2) - Apple things support "Thunderbolt" and need a donle from that standard. | [] Reasonable size -- I think the HP Pavillion had a 14" screen, and that | fit into my knapsack nicely. I don't need a gigantic screen. 14" is a nice middle-of-the-road size. It's good that you already know that you are comfortable with it.
On 2019-07-15 1:57 p.m., D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
| From: Alex Beamish via talk <talk@gtalug.org>
| On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 10:09 AM D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk < | talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
| It worked fine at the June meeting of the Perlmongers, sharing a Google | Hangouts session. The next day, it wouldn't boot -- couldn't even get it to | POST.
Usually it is something simple. Like a connector that has some oxidation. But it is a lot of work to disassemble laptops with no promise of success.
HP "business class" notebooks tried to compete on quality and features with ThinkPads. My impression was that they were quite good.
HP consumer notebooks are quite a mixed bag. Many were built as cheaply as possible.
| > Exactly which qualities of a notebook matter to you? (You may not | > actually know without living with one for a while.) | > | | Good question. | [] Decent speed -- I did some Audacity editing on my laptop when my | workstation died, and my goodness was that slow.
Most 5 year old notebooks had HDDs. Now only SSDs make sense and they are a lot faster. Was disk I/O the factor slowing your old machine down with audacity?
Processors haven't gotten much faster. They do have more cores. I don't know if audacity exploits multiple cores.
Multiple cores over 4-6 are not required for most workloads unless audacity is rendering multiple audio streams, normally audio is encoded per code not split. In addition unless you are compiling large projects or rendering pretty complex video or images in blender having more that number of cores is not needed. If you talking instruction speed per core it's about 10-12% on the Intel side since Sandy Bridge so if we were talking Haswell to current, that's three generations or 30 to 36%. AMD is close or just as fast now with Ryzen 3 which is good for gaming and other single threaded or single instruction expensive workloads, I was a little surprised that browsers are the key users here and not current encoding codecs. Hope that helps, Nick
| [] Decent wifi -- the HP Pavillion's Wifi receiver was pretty temperamental.
WiFi drivers can be a problem area with Linux. Not very often.
You want to be sure that the WiFi adapter supports 2.4G and 5.0G bands.
| [] Decent battery -- no complaints about the HP, it would last two hours+ | on a charge. That's enough for me.
The only current notebooks with less than about 4hrs of battery life are some gaming notebooks. Normal new laptops seem to have claims of 6-10hr battery life.
| [] HDMI output -- I can get by on just the laptop screen, but I do like to | have the ability to have multiple screens.
Pretty universal, except for notebooks that have "better" interfaces. For those execptions you need a dongle.
- DisplayPort / mini DisplayPort have simple HDMI dongles (unless you want HDMI 2)
- Apple things support "Thunderbolt" and need a donle from that standard.
| [] Reasonable size -- I think the HP Pavillion had a 14" screen, and that | fit into my knapsack nicely. I don't need a gigantic screen.
14" is a nice middle-of-the-road size. It's good that you already know that you are comfortable with it. --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Sun, 14 Jul 2019 at 23:18, Alex Beamish via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Greetings,
My Windows 10 laptop died pretty close to its fifth birthday, so I'm planning on replacing it with a Linux laptop. I've used it for conference calls (hosting the Toronto Perlmongers meeings), and some light Libre Office work, so I need something better than a Bare Bones laptop, but not as wicked as a big fat gamer's rig.
Refurbished is OK, and pre-loaded with Linux is also fine. Budget is perhaps $600-$800.
My impression, from both this list and years of looking at reviews to buy laptops for myself, is that if you want durability you should be looking at either Asus or Lenovo Thinkpads (as Don Tai said: not Lenovo's consumer models, just Thinkpads). My two main laptops are both relatively recent Asus ultrabooks - mostly because I wanted the reduced weight, but also because the premium on Thinkpad reliability is so high (ie. same specs, greater cost). I've found Asus's products to be extremely reliable, but (as I think I've mentioned previously) in the odd case where their product breaks, their support sucks. Having never owned a Thinkpad I can't address their support, but I imagine it's good. Like Hugh, I have a touch screen on one of my laptops and I barely ever use it - but then, I'm a command line guy. Also like him, I highly recommend getting a screen that's at least 1080p - although my aging eyes don't find anything higher than that terribly useful. Along those lines, the big trade-offs have been partially covered: a big screen is great - especially if your eyesight is getting worse, but my back isn't great and if the laptop weighs more than three pounds (excuse me, "1.4 kg") it's too damn heavy and I don't want to carry it anywhere. You can of course get an ultrabook: I love them for the (lack of) weight and the thinness, but - as Hugh points out - they're totally un-upgradeable and un-repairable by normal humans. My compromise has been to settle - for now - on the 14" or 15" ultrabooks with as much memory as I can get in them when I buy them. As for compatibility with Linux - pre-installed Linux (despite it being a free OS) generally costs you _more_ than a Windows laptop while offering less choice in hardware. I generally spend a lot of time trawling (not trolling) the forums looking for user experiences for the models I'm interested in. I've had bad luck with touchpads: a new piece of hardware works fine on Windows, but may be weeks or months waiting for a new driver under Linux (I have one six year old laptop with a touchpad that still doesn't work under Linux). Look for owner commentary on installing Linux on the exact model you're contemplating. Best of luck. -- Giles https://www.gilesorr.com/ gilesorr@gmail.com
On 2019-07-15 11:04 AM, Giles Orr via talk wrote:
My impression, from both this list and years of looking at reviews to buy laptops for myself, is that if you want durability you should be looking at either Asus or Lenovo Thinkpads (as Don Tai said: not Lenovo's consumer models, just Thinkpads).
They also come with a "TrackPoint". I will not buy a notebook computer without one, as I hate those touch pads. My E520 came with both, but I've disabled the TrackPad.
On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 11:08:35AM -0400, James Knott via talk wrote:
They also come with a "TrackPoint". I will not buy a notebook computer without one, as I hate those touch pads. My E520 came with both, but I've disabled the TrackPad.
I discovered a few years ago that Dell's copy of the trackpoint was unusable. Way too unstable to operate. I use it as the main pointing device on my thinkpad though. I do keep the trackpad enabled for two finger scrolling though. Of course the touchpad on the Dell was unusuable too as was the keyboard. It was sad to see people showing up to a meeting with an external keyboard and mouse just to be able to work. Of course [TW]x40 thinkpads are to be avoided since they don't have buttons for the trackpoint but rely on using the trackpad for that. Totally stupid and the design was reversed on the [TW]x50 and higher models (and the W541 too). -- Len Sorensen
On 2019-07-15 12:35 PM, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
Of course [TW]x40 thinkpads are to be avoided since they don't have buttons for the trackpoint but rely on using the trackpad for that. Totally stupid and the design was reversed on the [TW]x50 and higher models (and the W541 too).
One other advantage to ThinkPads is there's a mail list for them. http://mailman.linux-thinkpad.org/mailman/listinfo/linux-thinkpad
On Mon, Jul 15, 2019 at 11:04:14AM -0400, Giles Orr via talk wrote:
My impression, from both this list and years of looking at reviews to buy laptops for myself, is that if you want durability you should be looking at either Asus or Lenovo Thinkpads (as Don Tai said: not Lenovo's consumer models, just Thinkpads). My two main laptops are both relatively recent Asus ultrabooks - mostly because I wanted the reduced weight, but also because the premium on Thinkpad reliability is so high (ie. same specs, greater cost). I've found Asus's products to be extremely reliable, but (as I think I've mentioned previously) in the odd case where their product breaks, their support sucks. Having never owned a Thinkpad I can't address their support, but I imagine it's good.
Hmm, I haven't dealt with Asus laptops in a while. I know support was fantastic 10 years ago, but things change. Back then the service depot was in Markham, so it was trivial to just drop it off to be fixed. I think now they have to be shipped to texas or something like that. I don't have a clue what Lenovo thinkpad support is like. I have never needed it.
Like Hugh, I have a touch screen on one of my laptops and I barely ever use it - but then, I'm a command line guy. Also like him, I highly recommend getting a screen that's at least 1080p - although my aging eyes don't find anything higher than that terribly useful. Along those lines, the big trade-offs have been partially covered: a big screen is great - especially if your eyesight is getting worse, but my back isn't great and if the laptop weighs more than three pounds (excuse me, "1.4 kg") it's too damn heavy and I don't want to carry it anywhere. You can of course get an ultrabook: I love them for the (lack of) weight and the thinness, but - as Hugh points out - they're totally un-upgradeable and un-repairable by normal humans. My compromise has been to settle - for now - on the 14" or 15" ultrabooks with as much memory as I can get in them when I buy them.
As for compatibility with Linux - pre-installed Linux (despite it being a free OS) generally costs you _more_ than a Windows laptop while offering less choice in hardware. I generally spend a lot of time trawling (not trolling) the forums looking for user experiences for the models I'm interested in. I've had bad luck with touchpads: a new piece of hardware works fine on Windows, but may be weeks or months waiting for a new driver under Linux (I have one six year old laptop with a touchpad that still doesn't work under Linux). Look for owner commentary on installing Linux on the exact model you're contemplating.
Sounds right to me. -- Len Sorensen
There is too much talking on this list, and not enough action. Consider Lenovo T450 for $330: <https://www.newegg.ca/p/N82E16834847377?Item=N82E16834847377> I bought one last year, better spec at lower price. I think they made mistake when converting US$ to CAN$. -- William Park <opengeometry@yahoo.ca> On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 11:18:13PM -0400, Alex Beamish via talk wrote:
Greetings,
My Windows 10 laptop died pretty close to its fifth birthday, so I'm planning on replacing it with a Linux laptop. I've used it for conference calls (hosting the Toronto Perlmongers meeings), and some light Libre Office work, so I need something better than a Bare Bones laptop, but not as wicked as a big fat gamer's rig.
Refurbished is OK, and pre-loaded with Linux is also fine. Budget is perhaps $600-$800.
Thanks!
-- Alex Beamish
Software Developer / https://ca.linkedin.com/in/alex-beamish-5111ba3 Speaker Wrangler / Toronto Perlmongers / http://to.pm.org/ Baritone, Operations Manager / Toronto Northern Lights, 2013 Champions / www.northernlightschorus.com
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Thanks William. Just placed my order. And thanks to everyone for their feedback! I appreciate it. Alex On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 10:27 PM William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
There is too much talking on this list, and not enough action. Consider Lenovo T450 for $330: <https://www.newegg.ca/p/N82E16834847377?Item=N82E16834847377> I bought one last year, better spec at lower price. I think they made mistake when converting US$ to CAN$. -- William Park <opengeometry@yahoo.ca>
On Sun, Jul 14, 2019 at 11:18:13PM -0400, Alex Beamish via talk wrote:
Greetings,
My Windows 10 laptop died pretty close to its fifth birthday, so I'm planning on replacing it with a Linux laptop. I've used it for conference calls (hosting the Toronto Perlmongers meeings), and some light Libre Office work, so I need something better than a Bare Bones laptop, but not as wicked as a big fat gamer's rig.
Refurbished is OK, and pre-loaded with Linux is also fine. Budget is perhaps $600-$800.
Thanks!
-- Alex Beamish
Software Developer / https://ca.linkedin.com/in/alex-beamish-5111ba3 Speaker Wrangler / Toronto Perlmongers / http://to.pm.org/ Baritone, Operations Manager / Toronto Northern Lights, 2013 Champions / www.northernlightschorus.com
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-- Alex Beamish Software Developer / https://ca.linkedin.com/in/alex-beamish-5111ba3 Speaker Wrangler / Toronto Perlmongers / http://to.pm.org/ Baritone, Operations Manager / Toronto Northern Lights, 2013 Champions / www.northernlightschorus.com
On Tue, Jul 16, 2019 at 10:16:23PM -0400, William Park via talk wrote:
There is too much talking on this list, and not enough action. Consider Lenovo T450 for $330: <https://www.newegg.ca/p/N82E16834847377?Item=N82E16834847377> I bought one last year, better spec at lower price. I think they made mistake when converting US$ to CAN$.
I wouldn't personally be able to put up with that given the reviews mention 1600x900 display. I want 1920x1080 or better personally. :) Although my wife has 1600x900 on her T430 and doesn't seem to mind. 1920x1080 was not that common on the 14" models. Does seem like a good price though. -- Len Sorensen
| From: William Park via talk <talk@gtalug.org> | There is too much talking on this list, and not enough action. I'm not sure what "action" means on a mailing list. | Consider | Lenovo T450 for $330: | <https://www.newegg.ca/p/N82E16834847377?Item=N82E16834847377> | I bought one last year, better spec at lower price. I think they made | mistake when converting US$ to CAN$. That is "b" stock, whatever that means. There are currently 15 similar ones at Bauer for $275 plus shipping. "minor marks on screen". If I were interested, I'd phone them and ask how bad they are. (I have talked to them a couple of times. Talking to Newegg about technical things is pointless.) Why would 15 units have minor marks on the screen? The Bauer conveniently labels each ThinkPad entry with the type model code. That spells out in detail what configuration was sold. I've had mixed results googling for that code. I just found out that you simply put it into the search at support.lenovo.com and then look at "machine info" These 15 units are 20BUS2DB02. They have 1600x900 screens. This is the same resolution as the Newegg ones, according to Lennart (I don't see that in the Newegg listing). Bauer ones have a 180GB SSD vs 320G HDD on the Newegg ones. Bauer ones have intel wireless vs who knows on the Newegg ones. Bauer has lots of other ThinkPad models too.
I know that Alex has picked out his machine, but it does amaze me how slowly computers age now. A friend gave me an HP EliteBook Folio 9480m <https://support.hp.com/ca-en/document/c04410212> that had been declared surplus by his employer. With 16 GB RAM and an i7-4600U processor, it's still pretty nippy. It's clearly designed as a ThinkPad replacement: it even has the little trackpoint mouse nubbin in the keyboard. Battery life is no longer great, but it's light and portable. Stewart
On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 8:12 PM Stewart C. Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
I know that Alex has picked out his machine, but it does amaze me how slowly computers age now. A friend gave me an HP EliteBook Folio 9480m <https://support.hp.com/ca-en/document/c04410212> that had been declared surplus by his employer. With 16 GB RAM and an i7-4600U processor, it's still pretty nippy. It's clearly designed as a ThinkPad replacement: it even has the little trackpoint mouse nubbin in the keyboard.
Battery life is no longer great, but it's light and portable.
For kicked thought I'd see what the model is trading for. New - - - $400 usd Used - - - $150 to 225 (some even in that range CAN $) a replacement battery at $25 to 35 USD. A very interesting machine. Wonder why the company replaced it? Regards
On Thu, Jul 18, 2019 at 07:15:29AM -0500, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
For kicked thought I'd see what the model is trading for. New - - - $400 usd Used - - - $150 to 225 (some even in that range CAN $) a replacement battery at $25 to 35 USD.
A very interesting machine. Wonder why the company replaced it?
No longer on warranty is my guess. Some companies want to be able to have their machines serviced under warranty if they break. -- Len Sorensen
On 2019-07-18 02:04 PM, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
A very interesting machine. Wonder why the company replaced it? No longer on warranty is my guess. Some companies want to be able to have their machines serviced under warranty if they break.
Many companies lease for a fixed period of time. When the lease is up, the computers are replaced.
On Wed, Jul 17, 2019 at 04:19:34PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
That is "b" stock, whatever that means.
There are currently 15 similar ones at Bauer for $275 plus shipping. "minor marks on screen". If I were interested, I'd phone them and ask how bad they are. (I have talked to them a couple of times. Talking to Newegg about technical things is pointless.) Why would 15 units have minor marks on the screen?
The Bauer conveniently labels each ThinkPad entry with the type model code. That spells out in detail what configuration was sold. I've had mixed results googling for that code. I just found out that you simply put it into the search at support.lenovo.com and then look at "machine info"
These 15 units are 20BUS2DB02.
They have 1600x900 screens. This is the same resolution as the Newegg ones, according to Lennart (I don't see that in the Newegg listing).
Bauer ones have a 180GB SSD vs 320G HDD on the Newegg ones. Bauer ones have intel wireless vs who knows on the Newegg ones.
Bauer has lots of other ThinkPad models too.
A review on newegg said the one they got had 1600x900. It is not in the listing. Some reviews also said they got 500G rather than 320G disks so some variations seem to be present. -- Len Sorensen
participants (14)
-
ac -
Alex Beamish -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Dave Collier-Brown -
Don Tai -
Giles Orr -
James Knott -
lsorense＠csclub.uwaterloo.ca -
Mike Kallies -
nick -
o1bigtenor -
Stewart C. Russell -
Val Kulkov -
William Park