Notepad drops carrage return bits.
The article described the move as a step backwards. Best quote from the comments. "On a mechanical typewriter when you pull the lever you get an LF first then a CR. So Windows is already backwards." https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/05/notepad-gets-a-major-upgrade-now-doe... -- Russell
On 05/09/2018 07:51 AM, Russell via talk wrote:
The article described the move as a step backwards. Best quote from the comments.
"On a mechanical typewriter when you pull the lever you get an LF first then a CR. So Windows is already backwards."
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/05/notepad-gets-a-major-upgrade-now-doe...
Actually, this is one area where I can speak with a lot of authority. When I started in the telecom industry, 46 years and 8 days ago, I was working as a bench technician, overhauling Teletype machines. The rule was CR first, then LF, as it took time for the carriage to return to the left side. By having the LF after the CR, extra time was provided. Many people also got into the habit of CR LF LTRS (on 5 level Baudot machines) to provide even more time and ensure the printer was in a known state re letters or figures shift. In fact, one of my first tasks, after completing my training, was to go to customer sites and replace the answer back drums (used to ID the machine) on Telex machines, that had LF CR, as those would cause problems on overseas connections. The standard on those drums was CR LF <Customer ID> CR LF LTRS. Bottom line, it was always CR LF back then and that followed to any computer that used a Teletype machine for a console. However, on computers, a CR was generally used to denote new line and the computer added the LF.
Forgot to mention, some Teletype machines were configured to both CR and LF on CR, to prevent overprinting. On 05/09/2018 09:07 AM, James Knott wrote:
On 05/09/2018 07:51 AM, Russell via talk wrote:
The article described the move as a step backwards. Best quote from the comments.
"On a mechanical typewriter when you pull the lever you get an LF first then a CR. So Windows is already backwards."
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/05/notepad-gets-a-major-upgrade-now-doe...
Actually, this is one area where I can speak with a lot of authority. When I started in the telecom industry, 46 years and 8 days ago, I was working as a bench technician, overhauling Teletype machines. The rule was CR first, then LF, as it took time for the carriage to return to the left side. By having the LF after the CR, extra time was provided. Many people also got into the habit of CR LF LTRS (on 5 level Baudot machines) to provide even more time and ensure the printer was in a known state re letters or figures shift. In fact, one of my first tasks, after completing my training, was to go to customer sites and replace the answer back drums (used to ID the machine) on Telex machines, that had LF CR, as those would cause problems on overseas connections. The standard on those drums was CR LF <Customer ID> CR LF LTRS.
Bottom line, it was always CR LF back then and that followed to any computer that used a Teletype machine for a console. However, on computers, a CR was generally used to denote new line and the computer added the LF.
On May 9, 2018 9:12:18 AM EDT, James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
Forgot to mention, some Teletype machines were configured to both CR and LF on CR, to prevent overprinting.
On 05/09/2018 07:51 AM, Russell via talk wrote:
The article described the move as a step backwards. Best quote from
On 05/09/2018 09:07 AM, James Knott wrote: the comments.
"On a mechanical typewriter when you pull the lever you get an LF
first then a CR. So Windows is already backwards."
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/05/notepad-gets-a-major-upgrade-now-doe...
Actually, this is one area where I can speak with a lot of authority. When I started in the telecom industry, 46 years and 8 days ago, I
Congratulations on a long and I'll bet, storied career.
working as a bench technician, overhauling Teletype machines. The rule was CR first, then LF, as it took time for the carriage to return to
was the
left side. By having the LF after the CR, extra time was provided. Many people also got into the habit of CR LF LTRS (on 5 level Baudot machines) to provide even more time and ensure the printer was in a known state re letters or figures shift. In fact, one of my first tasks, after completing my training, was to go to customer sites and replace the answer back drums (used to ID the machine) on Telex
I'm curious now, an answer back drum? Like a single spinning drum whos only task was to provide an ID/handshake signal? I only ever fooled around with a telex in the radio shack at VE3OSC and all they'd let me touch was the keyboard. :-)
machines, that had LF CR, as those would cause problems on overseas connections. The standard on those drums was CR LF <Customer ID> CR LF LTRS.
LTRS = long term return signal/state? like HELO OLEH?
Bottom line, it was always CR LF back then and that followed to any computer that used a Teletype machine for a console. However, on computers, a CR was generally used to denote new line and the
computer
added the LF.
In industry, timing's are everything. Leveraging a mechanical advantage is as old as the oldest timepiece itself. It would make sense to me that the engineering of the day might take advantage of the mass in motion of a plattens own return movement, in order to advance the roll a notch or three on a sudden stop. I use to see those types of timing geegaws in manufacturing and industry all the time.
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Russell
On 05/10/2018 07:14 AM, Russell wrote:
I'm curious now, an answer back drum? Like a single spinning drum whos only task was to provide an ID/handshake signal?
It was a drum encoded with the ID information, typically a company name etc.. They held, IIRC, 21 characters. On the Model 32 & 33 Teletypes, they were solid plastic, with tabs that could be broken off to program the characters. Model 28 & 35 Teletypes used a metal drum where the tabs could be repositioned. Later devices such as the Texas Instruments Silent 700 used a diode matrix, where individual diodes could be cut. When a certain code was received, typically Figs J, though sometimes Figs S (Telex was Figs J) on Baudot or WRU on ASCII, the answer back would be triggered.
I only ever fooled around with a telex in the radio shack at VE3OSC and all they'd let me touch was the keyboard.
I also used that station.
LTRS = long term return signal/state? like HELO OLEH?
No, letters shift. Since Baudot machines used a 5 bit code, there weren't enough combinations for all characters. So, there was a figures shift (Figs) for printing numbers & punctuation and letters shift (Ltrs) for text. A letters shift was all 5 bits mark, figures bits 1, 2, 4 & 5 mark, with bit 3 space. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baudot_code
In industry, timing's are everything. Leveraging a mechanical advantage is as old as the oldest timepiece itself. It would make sense to me that the engineering of the day might take advantage of the mass in motion of a plattens own return movement, in order to advance the roll a notch or three on a sudden stop. I use to see those types of timing geegaws in manufacturing and industry all the time.
These days, with electronic controllers, it's a simple matter to buffer and wait as necessary. However, those Teletypes had a lot of mechanical activity that had to be properly synced. For example, in addition to moving the carriage back in time, the print hammer had to strike at the right time. Back when I was a bench tech, I could overhaul, that is strip, clean, rebuild and test 2 M32 or M33 machines per day or 1 M28 or M35.
On May 10, 2018 9:15:59 AM EDT, James Knott via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 05/10/2018 07:14 AM, Russell wrote:
I'm curious now, an answer back drum? Like a single spinning drum whos only task was to provide an ID/handshake signal?
It was a drum encoded with the ID information, typically a company name etc.. They held, IIRC, 21 characters. On the Model 32 & 33 Teletypes, they were solid plastic, with tabs that could be broken off to program the characters. Model 28 & 35 Teletypes used a metal drum where the tabs could be repositioned. Later devices
I use to similarly reprogram heavy duty washing machines and dryers for different duty cycles. Pop up tabs for hot and cold water and cycle lengths etc. The tabs would rotate on a drum and trigger the cycles. They were the same as commercial analog timers used to turn neon signs on and off at dusk and dawn, except there were several drums in each cluster. Like a music box, except that a sour note meant you'd immediately drain 50lbs of freshly heated clean water.
such as the Texas Instruments Silent 700 used a diode matrix, where individual diodes could be cut. When a certain code was received, typically Figs J, though sometimes Figs S (Telex was Figs J) on Baudot or WRU on ASCII, the answer back would be triggered.
I only ever fooled around with a telex in the radio shack at VE3OSC and all they'd let me touch was the keyboard.
I also used that station.
Well they let me practice morris on the old tap button once and a while on friday nights depending on the volunteer in charge. As a kid, the fancier left right button was a bit too sensitive for me to make any sense out of. I guess the real ham operators had tweaked that unit themselves and tightened up the swing arc. That one took a lot of coordination to get a message out quickly.
LTRS = long term return signal/state? like HELO OLEH?
No, letters shift. Since Baudot machines used a 5 bit code, there weren't enough combinations for all characters. So, there was a figures shift (Figs) for printing numbers & punctuation and letters shift (Ltrs) for text. A letters shift was all 5 bits mark, figures bits 1, 2, 4 & 5 mark, with bit 3 space.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baudot_code
In industry, timing's are everything. Leveraging a mechanical advantage is as old as the oldest timepiece itself. It would make sense to me that the engineering of the day might take advantage of the mass in motion of a plattens own return movement, in order to advance the roll a notch or three on a sudden stop. I use to see those types of timing geegaws in manufacturing and industry all the time.
These days, with electronic controllers, it's a simple matter to buffer and wait as necessary. However, those Teletypes had a lot of mechanical activity that had to be properly synced. For example, in addition to moving the carriage back in time, the print hammer had to strike at the right time.
Back when I was a bench tech, I could overhaul, that is strip, clean, rebuild and test 2 M32 or M33 machines per day or 1 M28 or M35.
Metal dust from grinding gears can play havoc with electronics, not to mention other physical tolerances. Plastic, not so much but still can cause tricky problems. Interestingly the dust from streetcar braking tends to cluster around the electronics in neon and I guess other high voltage signs in the city, at least the ones that aren't cleaned by the elements. LED signs are everywhere now but neon is pretty much limited to rec room bar signs now. Hard to believe that back in the day, show time on the strip, was watching the Motel signs light up one by one at dusk and watching that first neon Mallard of the night land, fold up its wings and Duck Right Inn.
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Russell
On 09/05/18 07:51 AM, Russell via talk wrote:
The article described the move as a step backwards. Best quote from the comments.
"On a mechanical typewriter when you pull the lever you get an LF first then a CR. So Windows is already backwards."
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/05/notepad-gets-a-major-upgrade-now-doe...
If I remember correctly from the 11-780 days, when I hit return the cursor went to the left edge of the stream, and when the shell finished launching the command I'd typed, it went to the next line. When it was slow, you knew that it was taking time loading. For example, if you just told it to load emacs (;-)) --dave -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain
On 05/09/2018 09:11 AM, David Collier-Brown via talk wrote:
If I remember correctly from the 11-780 days, when I hit return the cursor went to the left edge of the stream, and when the shell finished launching the command I'd typed, it went to the next line.
I also worked with serial terminals on various computers, including the VAX 11/780. However, by that time we had moved to more advanced terminals that included buffers to handle the CR time and also to video terminals (glass TTY) where CR time was no longer an issue.
On May 9, 2018 9:11:49 AM EDT, David Collier-Brown via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
The article described the move as a step backwards. Best quote from
On 09/05/18 07:51 AM, Russell via talk wrote: the comments.
"On a mechanical typewriter when you pull the lever you get an LF
first then a CR. So Windows is already backwards."
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/05/notepad-gets-a-major-upgrade-now-doe...
If I remember correctly from the 11-780 days, when I hit return the cursor went to the left edge of the stream, and when the shell finished
launching the command I'd typed, it went to the next line.
When it was slow, you knew that it was taking time loading. For example, if you just told it to load emacs (;-))
By the time I was using emacs, mostly for dssl and xslt validation, somebody had written viper-mode macros to make it vi like. Saved your pinky and kept all the list processing macros. I'll bet the wait was better than trying to use ed and ex.
--dave
-- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest davecb@spamcop.net | -- Mark Twain
-- Russell
participants (3)
-
David Collier-Brown -
James Knott -
Russell