Weird pivot from the Linux Foundation: Overture Maps Foundation
I was surprised and disappointed to read this today: The Linux Foundation, a global nonprofit organization enabling innovation through open source, today announced the formation of the Overture Maps Foundation <https://overturemaps.org/>, a new collaborative effort to develop interoperable open map data as a shared asset that can strengthen mapping services worldwide. The initiative was founded by Amazon Web Services (AWS), Meta, Microsoft, and TomTom and is open to all communities with a common interest in building open map data. — https://www.linuxfoundation.org/press/linux-foundation-announces-overture-ma... The thing is, we already have a mature global map database with interoperable data and services: OpenStreetMap — https://www.openstreetmap.org/ . OSM is managed by the democratic OpenStreetMap Foundation. The partners in Overture are not particularly well known for their open-source friendliness. Membership in the Overture foundation is also very costly: $3000 US/year to contribute, $3M US/year to be on the steering committee. I know that the Linux Foundation is hyper-corporate, but to try to compete with OSM is mystifying. Stewart
That seems odd: OSM is used legally in Garmin products, as per https://support.garmin.com/en-CA/?faq=mSWyDE91q874qY0e9JkL1A It sounds like AWS and friends are starting up a commerce-friendly service and trying to suck people in... --dave On 12/15/22 10:01, Stewart Russell via talk wrote: I was surprised and disappointed to read this today: The Linux Foundation, a global nonprofit organization enabling innovation through open source, today announced the formation of the Overture Maps Foundation<https://overturemaps.org/>, a new collaborative effort to develop interoperable open map data as a shared asset that can strengthen mapping services worldwide. The initiative was founded by Amazon Web Services (AWS), Meta, Microsoft, and TomTom and is open to all communities with a common interest in building open map data. — https://www.linuxfoundation.org/press/linux-foundation-announces-overture-ma... The thing is, we already have a mature global map database with interoperable data and services: OpenStreetMap — https://www.openstreetmap.org/ . OSM is managed by the democratic OpenStreetMap Foundation. The partners in Overture are not particularly well known for their open-source friendliness. Membership in the Overture foundation is also very costly: $3000 US/year to contribute, $3M US/year to be on the steering committee. I know that the Linux Foundation is hyper-corporate, but to try to compete with OSM is mystifying. Stewart --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org<mailto:talk@gtalug.org> Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com<mailto:dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com> | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.
They compete with LPI, and we're a member. No surprises here. Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56 On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 11:16 AM Dave Collier-Brown via talk < talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
That seems odd: OSM is used legally in Garmin products, as per https://support.garmin.com/en-CA/?faq=mSWyDE91q874qY0e9JkL1A
It sounds like AWS and friends are starting up a commerce-friendly service and trying to suck people in...
--dave
On 12/15/22 10:01, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
I was surprised and disappointed to read this today:
The Linux Foundation, a global nonprofit organization enabling innovation through open source, today announced the formation of the Overture Maps Foundation <https://overturemaps.org/>, a new collaborative effort to develop interoperable open map data as a shared asset that can strengthen mapping services worldwide. The initiative was founded by Amazon Web Services (AWS), Meta, Microsoft, and TomTom and is open to all communities with a common interest in building open map data. — https://www.linuxfoundation.org/press/linux-foundation-announces-overture-ma...
The thing is, we already have a mature global map database with interoperable data and services: OpenStreetMap — https://www.openstreetmap.org/ . OSM is managed by the democratic OpenStreetMap Foundation. The partners in Overture are not particularly well known for their open-source friendliness. Membership in the Overture foundation is also very costly: $3000 US/year to contribute, $3M US/year to be on the steering committee.
I know that the Linux Foundation is hyper-corporate, but to try to compete with OSM is mystifying.
Stewart
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the restdave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain
*CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER** : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.* --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 2022-12-15 10:01, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
announced the formation of the Overture Maps Foundation <https://overturemaps.org/>, a new collaborative effort to develop interoperable open map data [snip]> The thing is, we already have a mature global map database with interoperable data and services: OpenStreetMap
The founding members of the organization probably couldn't think of how they could monetize OSM so they needed to create their own system. You can get a good idea that it is probably about having another revenue stream when you read about how much money they want so you can contribute or be on the committee. It is fairly safe to say there will be another "standard" generated for the map data that will not be directly compatible with any existing map system. -- Cheers! Kevin. http://www.ve3syb.ca/ | "Nerds make the shiny things that https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and | that's why we're powerful" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
From the FAQ:
Data contributed to ODbL licensed datasets will be contributed under both
the ODbL and CDLA permissive v2. Contributions to CDLA permissive v2 datasets will be contributed under the CDLA permissive v2.
I don't know these licenses. Are they open enough such this project's data can be used by OSM? Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada @evanleibovitch / @el56 On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 12:15 PM Kevin Cozens via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
On 2022-12-15 10:01, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
announced the formation of the Overture Maps Foundation <https://overturemaps.org/>, a new collaborative effort to develop interoperable open map data [snip]> The thing is, we already have a mature global map database with interoperable data and services: OpenStreetMap
The founding members of the organization probably couldn't think of how they could monetize OSM so they needed to create their own system. You can get a good idea that it is probably about having another revenue stream when you read about how much money they want so you can contribute or be on the committee. It is fairly safe to say there will be another "standard" generated for the map data that will not be directly compatible with any existing map system.
-- Cheers!
Kevin.
http://www.ve3syb.ca/ | "Nerds make the shiny things that https://www.patreon.com/KevinCozens | distract the mouth-breathers, and | that's why we're powerful" Owner of Elecraft K2 #2172 | #include <disclaimer/favourite> | --Chris Hardwick
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 12:28 PM Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
From the FAQ:
Data contributed to ODbL licensed datasets will be contributed under both
the ODbL and CDLA permissive v2. Contributions to CDLA permissive v2 datasets will be contributed under the CDLA permissive v2.
I don't know these licenses. Are they open enough such this project's data can be used by OSM?
ODbL is the licence used by OSM. Its background is more from European database copyright than open source. It's a share-alike licence with required attribution. CDLA I'd never heard of, but it seems like a "let's make the MIT license, but for data". Many VC-funded startups balk at the share-alike and attribution requirements of OSM, because they just want the free data and earn money from contributors' work. This looks like Overture can consume OSM data, but OSM can't use Overture's data easily. What a surprise. Stewart
I think this is actually much more positive than you think: https://wiki.osmfoundation.org/wiki/CDLA_permissive_compatibility CDLA Permissive 2 seems very open, and OSM seems to agree. ../Dave On Dec 15, 2022 at 2:59 PM -0500, Stewart Russell via talk <talk@gtalug.org>, wrote:
On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 12:28 PM Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org> wrote:
From the FAQ:
Data contributed to ODbL licensed datasets will be contributed under both the ODbL and CDLA permissive v2. Contributions to CDLA permissive v2 datasets will be contributed under the CDLA permissive v2.
I don't know these licenses. Are they open enough such this project's data can be used by OSM?
ODbL is the licence used by OSM. Its background is more from European database copyright than open source. It's a share-alike licence with required attribution. CDLA I'd never heard of, but it seems like a "let's make the MIT license, but for data". Many VC-funded startups balk at the share-alike and attribution requirements of OSM, because they just want the free data and earn money from contributors' work.
This looks like Overture can consume OSM data, but OSM can't use Overture's data easily. What a surprise.
Stewart --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Looks like there's a bit more background from OSMF members here: Overturemaps.org - big-businesses OSMF alternative — https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/overturemaps-org-big-businesses-osmf-a... (note that the poster SimonPoole in that thread is OSMF's legal counsel, or possibly former counsel. He's part of the OSM woodwork, and is the SME for data licensing) It seems that the main actors in Overture were not happy with the rigorous way that data had to be vetted and approved by community before being allowed to be imported into OSM's database. Any OSM contributor can appeal any change in the map, and potentially have large data imports removed. (That's what happened with a community approved and Treasury Board of Canada supported countrywide import of buildings across Canada, btw. A mapper in Toronto didn't like that ‘his’ building outlines were going to be replaced, so raised enough of a stink that the whole project was abandoned.) Overture does claim to add some features that OSM (by design) lacks: 3d support, routing and Points of Interest. OSM does have very large corporate users and contributors, but corporate users didn't like the democratic aspect, hence the fork to Overture. Good luck to 'em. Let's hope they fare better than http://fosm.org/, a fork of the OSM database from mappers who didn't agree with the Great OSM Licence Change of 201x Stewart
Stewart wrote:
Any OSM contributor can appeal any change in the map, and potentially have large data imports removed. (That's what happened with a community approved and Treasury Board of Canada supported countrywide import of buildings across Canada, btw. A mapper in Toronto didn't like that ‘his’ building outlines were going to be replaced, so raised enough of a stink that the whole project was abandoned.)
That's happened to me. I mapped a complicated intersection, on foot, for a couple of hours, adding slip lanes, medians, road signs, and all the amenities. Then someone imported the CANVEC database for roads, and obliterated all the work I had done, replacing it with a simple four-way intersection. I haven't contributed anything of significance since. I haven't checked to see what other work of mine has been obliterated. My first experience with OSM was mapping all of Elmira by bike. JOSM has this neat feature where it adds photos to your track by matching the timestamps, so I took pictures of the roadsigns at every intersection to get accurate street names (and discovered some inconsistencies in signage in the process). Took days. I don't want to look, and find there's nothing left... --Bob. On 2022-12-18 14:58, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
Looks like there's a bit more background from OSMF members here: Overturemaps.org - big-businesses OSMF alternative — https://community.openstreetmap.org/t/overturemaps-org-big-businesses-osmf-a... (note that the poster SimonPoole in that thread is OSMF's legal counsel, or possibly former counsel. He's part of the OSM woodwork, and is the SME for data licensing)
It seems that the main actors in Overture were not happy with the rigorous way that data had to be vetted and approved by community before being allowed to be imported into OSM's database. Any OSM contributor can appeal any change in the map, and potentially have large data imports removed. (That's what happened with a community approved and Treasury Board of Canada supported countrywide import of buildings across Canada, btw. A mapper in Toronto didn't like that ‘his’ building outlines were going to be replaced, so raised enough of a stink that the whole project was abandoned.)
Overture does claim to add some features that OSM (by design) lacks: 3d support, routing and Points of Interest. OSM does have very large corporate users and contributors, but corporate users didn't like the democratic aspect, hence the fork to Overture.
Good luck to 'em. Let's hope they fare better than http://fosm.org/, a fork of the OSM database from mappers who didn't agree with the Great OSM Licence Change of 201x
Stewart --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Bob Jonkman <bjonkman@sobac.com> Phone: +1-519-635-9413 SOBAC Microcomputer Services http://sobac.com/sobac/ Software --- Office & Business Automation --- Consulting GnuPG Fngrprnt:04F7 742B 8F54 C40A E115 26C2 B912 89B0 D2CC E5EA
<expletive deleted/> On 12/15/22 14:59, Stewart Russell via talk wrote: On Thu, Dec 15, 2022 at 12:28 PM Evan Leibovitch via talk <talk@gtalug.org<mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> wrote:
From the FAQ:
Data contributed to ODbL licensed datasets will be contributed under both the ODbL and CDLA permissive v2. Contributions to CDLA permissive v2 datasets will be contributed under the CDLA permissive v2. I don't know these licenses. Are they open enough such this project's data can be used by OSM? ODbL is the licence used by OSM. Its background is more from European database copyright than open source. It's a share-alike licence with required attribution. CDLA I'd never heard of, but it seems like a "let's make the MIT license, but for data". Many VC-funded startups balk at the share-alike and attribution requirements of OSM, because they just want the free data and earn money from contributors' work. This looks like Overture can consume OSM data, but OSM can't use Overture's data easily. What a surprise. Stewart --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org<mailto:talk@gtalug.org> Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com<mailto:dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com> | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.
On 12/15/22 12:14, Kevin Cozens via talk wrote:
On 2022-12-15 10:01, Stewart Russell via talk wrote:
announced the formation of the Overture Maps Foundation <https://overturemaps.org/>, a new collaborative effort to develop interoperable open map data [snip]> The thing is, we already have a mature global map database with interoperable data and services: OpenStreetMap
The founding members of the organization probably couldn't think of how they could monetize OSM so they needed to create their own system. You can get a good idea that it is probably about having another revenue stream when you read about how much money they want so you can contribute or be on the committee. It is fairly safe to say there will be another "standard" generated for the map data that will not be directly compatible with any existing map system.
Hmmn, that sounds a bit like Linux Foundation has suffered "regulatory capture". Unless they're astroturf to begin with (:-() --dave -- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.
Stewart Russell via talk wrote on 2022-12-15 07:01:
The Linux Foundation, a global nonprofit organization enabling innovation through open source, today announced the formation of the Overture Maps Foundation <https://overturemaps.org/>, a new collaborative effort to develop interoperable open map data as a shared asset that can strengthen mapping services worldwide.
The thing is, we already have a mature global map database with interoperable data and services: OpenStreetMap
It sounds like OSM data *structures* are the issue, and "Overture data will be available for use by the OSM community..."
One of the Overture site FAQs asks about OpenStreetMap and its relationship to Overture: "Overture is a data-centric map project, not a community of individual map editors. Therefore, Overture is intended to be complementary to OSM. We combine OSM with other sources to produce new open map data sets. Overture data will be available for use by the OpenStreetMap community under compatible open data licenses. Overture members are encouraged to contribute to OSM directly."
It sounds like the Overture Foundation is unhappy with the OpenStreetMap data structure and wants to clean things up, saying, "Open map data can lack the structure needed to easily build map products. Overture will define and drive adoption of a common, well-structured, and documented data schema to create an easy-to-use ecosystem of map data."
As anticipated, Ars has a write-up about it: https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2022/12/linux-amazon-meta-and-microsoft-want...
Stewart Russell via talk wrote on 2022-12-15 07:01:
Membership in the Overture foundation is also very costly: $3000 US/year to contribute, $3M US/year to be on the steering committee.
From the Ars story, that's cheap to these companies:
If Overture Maps succeeds, it could lower costs for everyone. Overture member companies are expected to pay an annual membership fee to the foundation, with members on the "Steering" tier paying $3 million per year and dedicating 20 engineers to the project (sign-ups are currently open). That's nothing compared to what a big company will pay for access to the Google Maps API. When Uber held its IPO in 2019, the company reportedly paid $58 million for Google Maps API access over the previous three years, and that was mostly before the Google Maps price hike. $3 million a year is a bargain compared to that.
$3,000,000 *plus* 20 engineers - that kind of resources can get things done. Also, "Qualified Nonprofits / Government" tier of membership is $0: https://overturemaps.org/become-a-member/ Also, a Polish "find a pharmacy with medicine I require" site was priced out of Google Maps and investigated the alternatives (interesting comparison images of different mapping products), and made this claim:
Some options we could reject quickly for various reasons. OpenStreetMap is not supposed to be directly used by commercial sites
https://www.inderapotheke.de/blog/farewell-google-maps So, I can see the case for Overture Maps if they compete with Google (or can't afford them), and OSM licensing means OSM is unavailable.
The partners in Overture are not particularly well known for their open-source friendliness.
Ars again:
The code to "help developers process and effectively use Overture map data and the global entity reference system" will eventually be on GitHub. Initially, the foundation aims to release "basic layers including building, road, and administrative information," with later plans to introduce "new layers such as places, routing or 3D building data."
What's odd is that Open Street Map has commercial licensees. I can see multiple competing companies, but competing open source groups usually is an indication of a problem... --dave On 12/16/22 15:34, BCLUG via talk wrote:
Stewart Russell via talk wrote on 2022-12-15 07:01:
Membership in the Overture foundation is also very costly: $3000 US/year to contribute, $3M US/year to be on the steering committee.
From the Ars story, that's cheap to these companies:
If Overture Maps succeeds, it could lower costs for everyone. Overture member companies are expected to pay an annual membership fee to the foundation, with members on the "Steering" tier paying $3 million per year and dedicating 20 engineers to the project (sign-ups are currently open). That's nothing compared to what a big company will pay for access to the Google Maps API. When Uber held its IPO in 2019, the company reportedly paid $58 million for Google Maps API access over the previous three years, and that was mostly before the Google Maps price hike. $3 million a year is a bargain compared to that.
$3,000,000 *plus* 20 engineers - that kind of resources can get things done.
Also, "Qualified Nonprofits / Government" tier of membership is $0:
https://overturemaps.org/become-a-member/
Also, a Polish "find a pharmacy with medicine I require" site was priced out of Google Maps and investigated the alternatives (interesting comparison images of different mapping products), and made this claim:
Some options we could reject quickly for various reasons. OpenStreetMap is not supposed to be directly used by commercial sites
https://www.inderapotheke.de/blog/farewell-google-maps
So, I can see the case for Overture Maps if they compete with Google (or can't afford them), and OSM licensing means OSM is unavailable.
The partners in Overture are not particularly well known for their open-source friendliness.
Ars again:
The code to "help developers process and effectively use Overture map data and the global entity reference system" will eventually be on GitHub. Initially, the foundation aims to release "basic layers including building, road, and administrative information," with later plans to introduce "new layers such as places, routing or 3D building data."
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest dave.collier-brown@indexexchange.com | -- Mark Twain CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE AND DISCLAIMER : This telecommunication, including any and all attachments, contains confidential information intended only for the person(s) to whom it is addressed. Any dissemination, distribution, copying or disclosure is strictly prohibited and is not a waiver of confidentiality. If you have received this telecommunication in error, please notify the sender immediately by return electronic mail and delete the message from your inbox and deleted items folders. This telecommunication does not constitute an express or implied agreement to conduct transactions by electronic means, nor does it constitute a contract offer, a contract amendment or an acceptance of a contract offer. Contract terms contained in this telecommunication are subject to legal review and the completion of formal documentation and are not binding until same is confirmed in writing and has been signed by an authorized signatory.
participants (8)
-
BCLUG -
Bob Jonkman -
Dave Collier-Brown -
David Mason -
Evan Leibovitch -
Kevin Cozens -
Stewart C. Russell -
Stewart Russell