I know this is a stretch but I do listen to my stereo with my Manjaro laptop connected to a DAC connected to my amplifier. Could any electrical engineers offer advice about the difference stereo speaker cables make to sound? Thanks! Randy
On 03/13/2016 05:00 AM, Randy Jonasz wrote:
I know this is a stretch but I do listen to my stereo with my Manjaro laptop connected to a DAC connected to my amplifier. Could any electrical engineers offer advice about the difference stereo speaker cables make to sound?
Generally speaking, if a cable isn't falling apart, it's OK. Premium cables from Monster, etc. are a waste of money. A few years ago, a magazine called "Radio Electronics" did a test, comparing Monster cables with ordinary lamp cord. There was no measurable difference. So, just go to a hardware store and buy some lamp cord. For low level audio, the plain shielded cables with "phono" plugs are all you need. Just remember the old saying: "an audiophile and his money are soon parted".
| From: James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> | Generally speaking, if a cable isn't falling apart, it's OK. Premium | cables from Monster, etc. are a waste of money. I agree. And cables from Best Buy or other electronics stores are generally a waste of money. There might be some advantage to heavier gauge cables, especially for longer runs. You can get various gauges of lampcord at Canadian Tire or similar stores (cheaper than at consumer electoronics stores). If I remember correctly, 16 gauge is good and 20 gauge is OK. There is be some advantage to better connectors. In the past, I found that lampcord got a bit fuzzy at the exposed end and might not connect perfectly with the post. Tinning the end with solder seemed to help a bit. That might also cut down on oxide building up and interfering with a good connection. But that partly depends on the post mechanism (there are several). You need to connect your (two?) speakers in phase (otherwise the sound is wrong, but in a way you might not figure out). So you need a way to tell the two conductors apart. An asymmetric marking along the length of the insulation is sufficient (I have some lampcord with transparent insulation and differently-coloured conductors but that is not necessary). | For low level audio, the | plain shielded cables with "phono" plugs are all you need. RCA connectors can be crappy. Some dollar-store cables might not be good enough. Probably you can tell by feel if they are crappy. For video signals, even cables with RCA plugs should be co-ax (as I understand it). I think that applies to digital audio cables too (I'm not sure and I'm too lazy to google). I don't know if co-ax cables are better or worse for analogue audio but they are not what is conventionally used. One hint is colour. Yellow means video, white and red mean audio. I don't actually know if there is a convention for digital audio. Component video comes in three colours, usually as one bundle.
On 03/13/2016 11:23 AM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
| For low level audio, the | plain shielded cables with "phono" plugs are all you need.
RCA connectors can be crappy. Some dollar-store cables might not be good enough. Probably you can tell by feel if they are crappy.
I tend to avoid dollars stores as most of what they sell is crappy.
For video signals, even cables with RCA plugs should be co-ax (as I understand it). I think that applies to digital audio cables too (I'm not sure and I'm too lazy to google). I don't know if co-ax cables are better or worse for analogue audio but they are not what is conventionally used.
Audio cables, connected to plugs are coaxial, but often wrapped shield, rather than braided. Digital cables are often shielded to prevent interference to other devices, but the shield doesn't have much effect on the desired signal, as digital signals are inherently resistant to noise.
One hint is colour. Yellow means video, white and red mean audio. I don't actually know if there is a convention for digital audio. Component video comes in three colours, usually as one bundle.
Red & white, stereo audio Yellow, composite video Red, green & blue, component video. Equipment often has corresponding colours on the jacks, to ensure the correct connections. All the above are "RCA" plugs. S-Video has a special mini-DIN connector.
On 13 March 2016 at 11:23, D. Hugh Redelmeier <hugh@mimosa.com> wrote:
I don't actually know if there is a convention for digital audio.
Digital audio is 75 Ohm coaxial, the same as composite or component video. I don't think there's a colour standard, though. Digital audio can also be optical with "Toslink" connectors. -- Scott
Randy, I have mounted an old desktop behind my TV to record my LPs. Instead of connecting from the headphone jack, I went from the AUX OUT at the rear that would be used for a tape desk, if I had one. I got a dramatic improvement in sound quality, compared to my headphone jack. I do not know if this is due to wiring, or due to the fact that my stereo is 35_years old and I have never owned headphones. The jack my be corroded. On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 05:00:30 -0400 Randy Jonasz <jonaszre@mcmaster.ca> wrote:
I know this is a stretch but I do listen to my stereo with my Manjaro laptop connected to a DAC connected to my amplifier. Could any electrical engineers offer advice about the difference stereo speaker cables make to sound?
Thanks!
Randy --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca howard.gibson@teledyneoptech.com jhowardgibson@gmail.com http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
On 03/13/2016 11:10 AM, Howard Gibson wrote: Aux and other line level outputs are designed for connecting to the inputs of other devices and are different impedance and signal level than headphone output. This means better results. However, many devices have only a headphone jack, which must then be used. I recall adapters that reduced the sound level from headphone jacks to one more suitable for connecting to amps, while providing the appropriate impedance for the headphone output. BTW, I suppose some here may recall creating an "Aux" output, by connecting across the volume control and bringing it out to a connector. Not recommended for the old AC/DC tube radios.
Randy,
I have mounted an old desktop behind my TV to record my LPs. Instead of connecting from the headphone jack, I went from the AUX OUT at the rear that would be used for a tape desk, if I had one. I got a dramatic improvement in sound quality, compared to my headphone jack. I do not know if this is due to wiring, or due to the fact that my stereo is 35_years old and I have never owned headphones. The jack my be corroded.
On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 05:00:30 -0400 Randy Jonasz <jonaszre@mcmaster.ca> wrote:
I know this is a stretch but I do listen to my stereo with my Manjaro laptop connected to a DAC connected to my amplifier. Could any electrical engineers offer advice about the difference stereo speaker cables make to sound?
Thanks!
Randy --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
As long as you're not using #30 wire-wrap wire, something like the lamp cord (aka zip cord) you can get at the local hardware store, is just fine. I used to write for Audio Scene Magazine, and worked with Floyd Toole at the National Research Council on loudspeaker evaluation. The theory says there shouldn't be any improvement with the very expensive Monster Cables et al, and indeed, there was no observable difference in double blind listening tests. Peter
I know this is a stretch but I do listen to my stereo with my Manjaro laptop connected to a DAC connected to my amplifier. Could any electrical engineers offer advice about the difference stereo speaker cables make to sound?
Thanks!
Randy --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325
On 03/13/2016 03:34 PM, phiscock@ee.ryerson.ca wrote:
The theory says there shouldn't be any improvement with the very expensive Monster Cables et al, and indeed, there was no observable difference in double blind listening tests.
The problem is audiofools don't accept double blind tests. They have "golden ears" and can always tell the difference, even when listening in different environments and at different times. They *KNOW* those Monster cables are better! ;-)
A buddy of mine worked at one of the large electronics chains and talks of the incredible markup on cables and connectors. So stay away from the Consumer Electronics stores for those items. I've always found Canada Computer to be reasonably priced and got some HDMI cables at the local Dollarama that seem to be fine quality - for a fraction of the cost of the Big Box stores. At one point, Canada Computers had some nice outlet strip units (yellow, in a square, with 7 outlets and a pilot light and switch), for something like $10. I bought as many as I could carry. They later showed up at Canadian Tire 'on sale' for about double that. However, Canadian Tire sometimes has reasonable deals. They had a nice little battery tester meter that actually loads the battery, which leads to a more accurate assessment of the state of the battery than just measuring with a voltmeter. (An aside: some local entrepreneur registered the URL 'Crappy Tire'. Canadian Tire then went to court and had to argue that Crappy Tire was actually their trademark. They lost, and had to settle with the owner.) Peter
On 03/13/2016 03:34 PM, phiscock@ee.ryerson.ca wrote:
The theory says there shouldn't be any improvement with the very expensive Monster Cables et al, and indeed, there was no observable difference in double blind listening tests.
The problem is audiofools don't accept double blind tests. They have "golden ears" and can always tell the difference, even when listening in different environments and at different times. They *KNOW* those Monster cables are better! ;-)
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325
On 03/13/2016 05:45 PM, phiscock@ee.ryerson.ca wrote:
A buddy of mine worked at one of the large electronics chains and talks of the incredible markup on cables and connectors. So stay away from the Consumer Electronics stores for those items.
A few years ago, while in Future Shop, I overheard a clerk tell a woman she needed some expensive cables. I told her she only needed the much cheaper, basic cables that were on a different rack. For some reason, the clerk was a bit annoyed. ;-) I'm a bit leery of buying cables etc. at dollar stores. While you may get some good deals, you might also get garbage.
On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 06:34:22PM -0400, James Knott wrote:
On 03/13/2016 05:45 PM, phiscock@ee.ryerson.ca wrote:
A buddy of mine worked at one of the large electronics chains and talks of the incredible markup on cables and connectors. So stay away from the Consumer Electronics stores for those items.
A few years ago, while in Future Shop, I overheard a clerk tell a woman she needed some expensive cables. I told her she only needed the much cheaper, basic cables that were on a different rack. For some reason, the clerk was a bit annoyed. ;-)
Hmm... You should refrain from doing that in future. You're interfering with their business on their premise. There are many sides to the issue: - the store lost revenue - the clerk lost comission - government lost tax -- William
On 03/13/2016 09:30 PM, William Park wrote:
A few years ago, while in Future Shop, I overheard a clerk tell a woman
she needed some expensive cables. I told her she only needed the much cheaper, basic cables that were on a different rack. For some reason, the clerk was a bit annoyed. ;-) Hmm... You should refrain from doing that in future. You're interfering with their business on their premise.
I guess that's why they shut down last year. ;-)
Thankyou very much for all your responses. I was tempted to lay out $500 for a pair of 10' cables but my research is telling me not to do it. I have read I would be better off with 10 gauge copper wire. Randy Sent from TypeApp On Mar 13, 2016, 3:34 PM, at 3:34 PM, phiscock@ee.ryerson.ca wrote:
As long as you're not using #30 wire-wrap wire, something like the lamp cord (aka zip cord) you can get at the local hardware store, is just fine.
I used to write for Audio Scene Magazine, and worked with Floyd Toole at the National Research Council on loudspeaker evaluation. The theory says there shouldn't be any improvement with the very expensive Monster Cables et al, and indeed, there was no observable difference in double blind listening tests.
Peter
I know this is a stretch but I do listen to my stereo with my Manjaro laptop connected to a DAC connected to my amplifier. Could any electrical engineers offer advice about the difference stereo speaker cables make to sound?
Thanks!
Randy --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 03/13/2016 05:15 PM, Randy Jonasz wrote:
I have read I would be better off with 10 gauge copper wire.
10 gauge is quite heavy and much more than you need, unless running a lot of power or over a long distance. Lamp cord is typically 14 - 18 gauge. I used 16 gauge for short runs and 14 for long, but even that may be more than necessary.
On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 05:15:39PM -0400, Randy Jonasz wrote:
Thankyou very much for all your responses. I was tempted to lay out $500 for a pair of 10' cables but my research is telling me not to do it. I have read I would be better off with 10 gauge copper wire.
10AWG for audio? That's lotta of Amps. -- William
On Sunday, March 13, 2016 9:33:42 PM EDT William Park wrote:
10AWG for audio? That's lotta of Amps.
Actually I ended up buying today 50' of 12 guage wire for $17. I figure I'll try it and if I don't like it I only lose $17. There's a couple of reviews I read that influenced my decision. This one was very good. http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge
On 03/13/2016 09:56 PM, Randy Jonasz wrote:
10AWG for audio? That's lotta of Amps. Actually I ended up buying today 50' of 12 guage wire for $17. I figure I'll
On Sunday, March 13, 2016 9:33:42 PM EDT William Park wrote: try it and if I don't like it I only lose $17. There's a couple of reviews I read that influenced my decision. This one was very good.
http://www.audioholics.com/audio-video-cables/speaker-cable-gauge
According to that article, 18 gauge is plenty for up to 10'. That's the smallest wire I'd recommend, for purely physical reasons. 16g is probably plenty. Also, notice how that first graph ends at -1.5 dB? Well, the smallest change you can normally perceive is about 1 dB. Do you really think you'll notice the difference between 12 & 18 gauge? According to the graph, the difference would be less than 0.2 dB, which you'd never hear. As I mentioned, I used 16 gauge for short runs and 14 for long (about 20'), which is actually better than what that article recommends,
| From: phiscock@ee.ryerson.ca | I used to write for Audio Scene Magazine, and worked with Floyd Toole at | the National Research Council on loudspeaker evaluation. I subscribed to that magazine. I think I remember your name on some articles (but my memory is fuzzy on that). The work at NRC on loudspeakers was groundbreaking. As I understand it, this created a Canadian edge in loudspeaker design that allowed several companies to break into the industry world-wide. I guess Harper cured NRC of this kind of adventures. <http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/science-under-siege-part-1-1.3091552> <http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/science-under-siege-part-2-1.3098865> <http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/science-under-siege-part-3-1.3101953> (The audio I'm listening to these days; HiFi not required.)
Canada had a pretty good audio industry going back quite a ways. Radio Speakers of Canada was old when I was young but they seem to be long gone now. They made some pretty good speakers in Ontario but they never had quite the sex appeal of Bose or Lansing. My guess is that NAFTA and production in China made sure Canadian production was killed off. So as much as Harper screwed science in Canada I doubt that he killed off the loudspeaker industry. On 03/14/2016 01:12 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
| From: phiscock@ee.ryerson.ca
| I used to write for Audio Scene Magazine, and worked with Floyd Toole at | the National Research Council on loudspeaker evaluation.
I subscribed to that magazine. I think I remember your name on some articles (but my memory is fuzzy on that).
The work at NRC on loudspeakers was groundbreaking. As I understand it, this created a Canadian edge in loudspeaker design that allowed several companies to break into the industry world-wide.
I guess Harper cured NRC of this kind of adventures. <http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/science-under-siege-part-1-1.3091552> <http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/science-under-siege-part-2-1.3098865> <http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/science-under-siege-part-3-1.3101953> (The audio I'm listening to these days; HiFi not required.) --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
Alvin, I bought PSB Avants back in 1979. They still sound fine, and the company still is business. Where do they manufacture them? On Mon, 14 Mar 2016 14:50:51 -0400 Alvin Starr <alvin@netvel.net> wrote:
Canada had a pretty good audio industry going back quite a ways.
Radio Speakers of Canada was old when I was young but they seem to be long gone now. They made some pretty good speakers in Ontario but they never had quite the sex appeal of Bose or Lansing.
My guess is that NAFTA and production in China made sure Canadian production was killed off.
So as much as Harper screwed science in Canada I doubt that he killed off the loudspeaker industry.
On 03/14/2016 01:12 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
| From: phiscock@ee.ryerson.ca
| I used to write for Audio Scene Magazine, and worked with Floyd Toole at | the National Research Council on loudspeaker evaluation.
I subscribed to that magazine. I think I remember your name on some articles (but my memory is fuzzy on that).
The work at NRC on loudspeakers was groundbreaking. As I understand it, this created a Canadian edge in loudspeaker design that allowed several companies to break into the industry world-wide.
I guess Harper cured NRC of this kind of adventures. <http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/science-under-siege-part-1-1.3091552> <http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/science-under-siege-part-2-1.3098865> <http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/science-under-siege-part-3-1.3101953> (The audio I'm listening to these days; HiFi not required.) --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Howard Gibson hgibson@eol.ca howard.gibson@teledyneoptech.com jhowardgibson@gmail.com http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
wow I am surprised. PSB Speakers International 633 Granite Court, Pickering, Ontario L1W 3K1, Canada It would be interesting to know if they manufacture their speaker assemblies and not just the enclosures. On 03/14/2016 10:42 PM, Howard Gibson wrote:
Alvin,
I bought PSB Avants back in 1979. They still sound fine, and the company still is business. Where do they manufacture them?
On Mon, 14 Mar 2016 14:50:51 -0400 Alvin Starr <alvin@netvel.net> wrote:
Canada had a pretty good audio industry going back quite a ways.
Radio Speakers of Canada was old when I was young but they seem to be long gone now. They made some pretty good speakers in Ontario but they never had quite the sex appeal of Bose or Lansing.
My guess is that NAFTA and production in China made sure Canadian production was killed off.
So as much as Harper screwed science in Canada I doubt that he killed off the loudspeaker industry.
On 03/14/2016 01:12 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
| From: phiscock@ee.ryerson.ca
| I used to write for Audio Scene Magazine, and worked with Floyd Toole at | the National Research Council on loudspeaker evaluation.
I subscribed to that magazine. I think I remember your name on some articles (but my memory is fuzzy on that).
The work at NRC on loudspeakers was groundbreaking. As I understand it, this created a Canadian edge in loudspeaker design that allowed several companies to break into the industry world-wide.
I guess Harper cured NRC of this kind of adventures. <http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/science-under-siege-part-1-1.3091552> <http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/science-under-siege-part-2-1.3098865> <http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/science-under-siege-part-3-1.3101953> (The audio I'm listening to these days; HiFi not required.) --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
I have a pair of the PSB Passif II speakers and man, they are excellent. Peter
wow I am surprised.
PSB Speakers International
633 Granite Court, Pickering, Ontario L1W 3K1, Canada
It would be interesting to know if they manufacture their speaker assemblies and not just the enclosures.
On 03/14/2016 10:42 PM, Howard Gibson wrote:
Alvin,
I bought PSB Avants back in 1979. They still sound fine, and the company still is business. Where do they manufacture them?
On Mon, 14 Mar 2016 14:50:51 -0400 Alvin Starr <alvin@netvel.net> wrote:
Canada had a pretty good audio industry going back quite a ways.
Radio Speakers of Canada was old when I was young but they seem to be long gone now. They made some pretty good speakers in Ontario but they never had quite the sex appeal of Bose or Lansing.
My guess is that NAFTA and production in China made sure Canadian production was killed off.
So as much as Harper screwed science in Canada I doubt that he killed off the loudspeaker industry.
On 03/14/2016 01:12 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:
| From: phiscock@ee.ryerson.ca
| I used to write for Audio Scene Magazine, and worked with Floyd Toole at | the National Research Council on loudspeaker evaluation.
I subscribed to that magazine. I think I remember your name on some articles (but my memory is fuzzy on that).
The work at NRC on loudspeakers was groundbreaking. As I understand it, this created a Canadian edge in loudspeaker design that allowed several companies to break into the industry world-wide.
I guess Harper cured NRC of this kind of adventures. <http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/science-under-siege-part-1-1.3091552> <http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/science-under-siege-part-2-1.3098865> <http://www.cbc.ca/radio/ideas/science-under-siege-part-3-1.3101953> (The audio I'm listening to these days; HiFi not required.) --- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Alvin Starr || voice: (905)513-7688 Netvel Inc. || Cell: (416)806-0133 alvin@netvel.net ||
--- Talk Mailing List talk@gtalug.org https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
-- Peter Hiscocks Syscomp Electronic Design Limited, Toronto http://www.syscompdesign.com USB Oscilloscope and Waveform Generator 647-839-0325
On 15 March 2016 at 13:57, <phiscock@ee.ryerson.ca> wrote:
I have a pair of the PSB Passif II speakers and man, they are excellent.
The current top of the line, Imagine T3: http://www.psbspeakers.com/articles/Watch-the-Imagine-T3-Story-from-SoundSta... at $7500/pair, they better sound good! ../Dave
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 09:00:00AM -0400, Alvin Starr wrote:
wow I am surprised.
PSB Speakers International
633 Granite Court, Pickering, Ontario L1W 3K1, Canada
It would be interesting to know if they manufacture their speaker assemblies and not just the enclosures.
Don't know. I bought PSB speakers about 4 years ago. I like them. -- Len Sorensen
| From: Alvin Starr <alvin@netvel.net> A: Because we read from top to bottom, left to right. Q: Why should I start my reply below the quoted text? A: Yes. Q: Should I trim down the quoted part of an email to which I'm replying? <http://www.idallen.com/topposting.html> | Canada had a pretty good audio industry going back quite a ways. | Radio Speakers of Canada was old when I was young but they seem to be long | gone now. | They made some pretty good speakers in Ontario but they never had quite the | sex appeal of Bose or Lansing. I didn't know of Radio Speakers of Canada, but Google found this interesting article that mentions R.S.C and NRC and PSB <http://www.stereophile.com/interviews/231/index.html. It mentions that Ian Masters suggested to Paul Barton of PSB that he should see Floyd Toole of the NRC. (I met Ian once because he was the husband of a schoolmate of mine.) The article mentions Stanley Lipshitz who I had as a 2nd year calculus prof. I also heard him speak at a meeting to the Toronto chapter of the Audio Engineering Society. | My guess is that NAFTA and production in China made sure Canadian production | was killed off. Mass production, yes. Audiophile products don't have quite that cost pressure. | So as much as Harper screwed science in Canada I doubt that he killed off the | loudspeaker industry. Right. But what I said was: | > I guess Harper cured NRC of this kind of adventures. I'm talking about curiosity-driven research. That's probably where Toole started. It later became commercially consequential. That's not possible in Harper's model of the NRC.
participants (11)
-
Alvin Starr -
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
David Mason -
Howard Gibson -
James Knott -
Lennart Sorensen -
phiscock＠ee.ryerson.ca -
Randy Jonasz -
Randy Jonasz -
Scott Allen -
William Park