"Accessibility in Fedora Workstation"
An article in Fedora Magazine talks about increased efforts to make the Fedora distribution more accessible. <https://fedoramagazine.org/accessibility-in-fedora-workstation/> This seems like a Good Thing. Karen Lewellen has been navigating these problems and posted some software problems here. It would be good to have more attention to these problems. Karen: Do you have any reactions to this article for us? Are there easy improvements that could be made?
Hi there, Sighs. first and foremost that article link did not work in the one browser most common in command line Linux...at least not without turning off sending a user agent header. Which I did to read the article. Speaking personally? While I respect that Red hat believes they are aiming for inclusion, there are some aspects of what I read that, again speaking personally and objectively makes this person unqualified for the job they are being advertised to do. lets start with one glaring point. Fedora is aiming to be accessible. however accessibility is not, and has never been entirely about blindness, which is before You even consider the absolutely disturbing idea that a single person with a single sight loss experience is qualified to develop anything for other users. he may share a label with these millions, but he does not share an experience with them. That he states he has not educated himself on other tools created for populations other than his own, makes him unqualified to create accessibility solutions. what is redhat planning a token insert condition person to manage the rest of access? After all, even one of the comments outlined a desire, but since they are not blind, they are not included at the fedora table..why? then there is his limited, outdated, and frankly concerning awareness of even screen reader options in Linux. Speakup for example not only works with hardware speech...ever heard of a sound card? no idea those were obsolete, but it can work with embedded speech synthesis as well, is incorporated in Debian, and has an active development base. Finel <spelling> is another active screen reader project for Linux, this expert has not even heard of it. Something to consider though is that I am a media professional..catching factual errors in the first paragraph. Linux had the best accessibility, for whom? by what definition? to perform what tasks? and the first effort came from sun Micro..says who? Where did this new staff-member go to university? His software engineering degree is at what level? did they also say minor in disability studies at least? Sorry! This individual is only qualified to create, from his personal understanding access for himself, perhaps a handful of his friends. However actual inclusion, say use the human rights code as a basis generally means that an individual, where they are, can use the tools defined as best by them, to access your services, including our website. I can personally name three red hat users who have been involved in, and working regularly with fedora years before this person had even heard of Linux...and one of them is a computer scientist if memory serves. One interesting discussion on a Linux list focused on accessibility is how important it is that all aspects of Linux, console and gui work so that the individual can choose how they are going to use the system. managing a learning disability? Perhaps paraplegic? want to use your voice? and so forth. gGui is clunky time consuming and sounds reprehensible generally out of the box. then, the programs associated with said system themselves are not fully functional either. one thing, speaking personally, working against Linux is likely a strong point for seasoned users...Linux is clay. You can mold a system into what You desire, at least if you are knowledgeable enough. why is that a problem from an accessibility standpoint? Because by in large adaptive technology works as extensions of, if not substitutions for physical body processes. hands, ears, eyes, brains, a combination of these even if only a single diagnosis is on the table. Factor in that humans learn and interact WITH technology differently, and a clay structure is challenging. generally though you do not say remove your hands for a different set when banking, and again when shopping etc., or your eyes for that matter. To claim that Linux ever had the best accessibility of any operating system is frankly hysterical, not only because of the number of populations involved, none of whom are fully represented by this individual, but because sometimes it can take more than one Linux program to manage a task. Say to clap, you seem to need one for the right hand, on for just the left, and a third to bring them together. To be Honest, and I say this as a former Xerox adaptive technology staffer, the best operating system for accessibility, i. e. incorporated tools for multiple populations who read, write, and interact with technology differently is likely Apple..for several reasons. Still, what is profoundly concerning here is that the redhat team actually believes that accessibility applies to a single population, and is staffing someone who, by their definition is only qualified because he is a member of that single population. and hands down projected stereotyping contributes more to a lack of accessibility than anything else. could Linux become actually inclusive? certainly, would the process be easy? It depends, mainly on how much they are willing to toss out this accessibility only means blindness, and all blind people are the same dictionary they are using. Do look forward to sharing this article on a few lists, and watching the explosion. It is unfortunate comments are closed, Redhat could use an education. Just my thoughts though, Karen On Tue, 9 Aug 2022, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
An article in Fedora Magazine talks about increased efforts to make the Fedora distribution more accessible.
<https://fedoramagazine.org/accessibility-in-fedora-workstation/>
This seems like a Good Thing. Karen Lewellen has been navigating these problems and posted some software problems here.
It would be good to have more attention to these problems.
Karen:
Do you have any reactions to this article for us?
Are there easy improvements that could be made? --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
On 2022-08-09 23:36, Karen Lewellen via talk wrote:
Hi there, Sighs. first and foremost that article link did not work in the one browser most common in command line Linux...at least not without turning off sending a user agent header. Which I did to read the article. Speaking personally? While I respect that Red hat believes they are aiming for inclusion, there are some aspects of what I read that, again speaking personally and objectively makes this person unqualified for the job they are being advertised to do. lets start with one glaring point. Fedora is aiming to be accessible. however accessibility is not, and has never been entirely about blindness, which is before You even consider the absolutely disturbing idea that a single person with a single sight loss experience is qualified to develop anything for other users. he may share a label with these millions, but he does not share an experience with them. That he states he has not educated himself on other tools created for populations other than his own, makes him unqualified to create accessibility solutions. what is redhat planning a token insert condition person to manage the rest of access? After all, even one of the comments outlined a desire, but since they are not blind, they are not included at the fedora table..why? then there is his limited, outdated, and frankly concerning awareness of even screen reader options in Linux. Speakup for example not only works with hardware speech...ever heard of a sound card? no idea those were obsolete, but it can work with embedded speech synthesis as well, is incorporated in Debian, and has an active development base. Finel <spelling> is another active screen reader project for Linux, this expert has not even heard of it. Something to consider though is that I am a media professional..catching factual errors in the first paragraph. Linux had the best accessibility, for whom? by what definition? to perform what tasks? and the first effort came from sun Micro..says who? Where did this new staff-member go to university? His software engineering degree is at what level? did they also say minor in disability studies at least? Sorry! This individual is only qualified to create, from his personal understanding access for himself, perhaps a handful of his friends. However actual inclusion, say use the human rights code as a basis generally means that an individual, where they are, can use the tools defined as best by them, to access your services, including our website. I can personally name three red hat users who have been involved in, and working regularly with fedora years before this person had even heard of Linux...and one of them is a computer scientist if memory serves. One interesting discussion on a Linux list focused on accessibility is how important it is that all aspects of Linux, console and gui work so that the individual can choose how they are going to use the system. managing a learning disability? Perhaps paraplegic? want to use your voice? and so forth. gGui is clunky time consuming and sounds reprehensible generally out of the box. then, the programs associated with said system themselves are not fully functional either. one thing, speaking personally, working against Linux is likely a strong point for seasoned users...Linux is clay. You can mold a system into what You desire, at least if you are knowledgeable enough. why is that a problem from an accessibility standpoint? Because by in large adaptive technology works as extensions of, if not substitutions for physical body processes. hands, ears, eyes, brains, a combination of these even if only a single diagnosis is on the table. Factor in that humans learn and interact WITH technology differently, and a clay structure is challenging. generally though you do not say remove your hands for a different set when banking, and again when shopping etc., or your eyes for that matter. To claim that Linux ever had the best accessibility of any operating system is frankly hysterical, not only because of the number of populations involved, none of whom are fully represented by this individual, but because sometimes it can take more than one Linux program to manage a task. Say to clap, you seem to need one for the right hand, on for just the left, and a third to bring them together. To be Honest, and I say this as a former Xerox adaptive technology staffer, the best operating system for accessibility, i. e. incorporated tools for multiple populations who read, write, and interact with technology differently is likely Apple..for several reasons. Still, what is profoundly concerning here is that the redhat team actually believes that accessibility applies to a single population, and is staffing someone who, by their definition is only qualified because he is a member of that single population. and hands down projected stereotyping contributes more to a lack of accessibility than anything else. could Linux become actually inclusive? certainly, would the process be easy? It depends, mainly on how much they are willing to toss out this accessibility only means blindness, and all blind people are the same dictionary they are using. Do look forward to sharing this article on a few lists, and watching the explosion. It is unfortunate comments are closed, Redhat could use an education. Just my thoughts though, Karen
I tend to agree with Karen. In particular, token diversity is still a real thing. It's very rare I see biological aspects of personality ever taken into consideration to prove my point. I think token diversity is a little thing for some companies who do this frankly. Most want to seem like there doing something but when you look at it closely it's not much. That's just my take through, Nick
On Tue, 9 Aug 2022, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
An article in Fedora Magazine talks about increased efforts to make the Fedora distribution more accessible.
<https://fedoramagazine.org/accessibility-in-fedora-workstation/>
This seems like a Good Thing. Karen Lewellen has been navigating these problems and posted some software problems here.
It would be good to have more attention to these problems.
Karen:
Do you have any reactions to this article for us?
Are there easy improvements that could be made? --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
Oh do not mistake me, I feel reasonably sure, in most cases, such efforts are well intended. further they flow from many factors, not the least of which is that individuals using adaptive tools have rather bad pr generally. Still, the energy spent pretending to have a disability, <something I just learned the Toronto Public Library actually does> can be better spent engaging in progressive enhancement design practices. then no one has to talk about their body to perfect strangers, not living their life situation. I dare say it is like building a house, if you lay the foundations correctly the first time, you will not have to go back and take out a floor later. Accessibility is largely about interaction. does it work equally with the entre key? are there suitable labels for items so a user, any user, knows what they do if activated? Is there enough basic HTML for an object to work if triggered by anything other than a mouse click? Etc. etc. Kare On Wed, 10 Aug 2022, Nicholas Krause via talk wrote:
On 2022-08-09 23:36, Karen Lewellen via talk wrote:
Hi there, Sighs. first and foremost that article link did not work in the one browser most common in command line Linux...at least not without turning off sending a user agent header. Which I did to read the article. Speaking personally? While I respect that Red hat believes they are aiming for inclusion, there are some aspects of what I read that, again speaking personally and objectively makes this person unqualified for the job they are being advertised to do. lets start with one glaring point. Fedora is aiming to be accessible. however accessibility is not, and has never been entirely about blindness, which is before You even consider the absolutely disturbing idea that a single person with a single sight loss experience is qualified to develop anything for other users. he may share a label with these millions, but he does not share an experience with them. That he states he has not educated himself on other tools created for populations other than his own, makes him unqualified to create accessibility solutions. what is redhat planning a token insert condition person to manage the rest of access? After all, even one of the comments outlined a desire, but since they are not blind, they are not included at the fedora table..why? then there is his limited, outdated, and frankly concerning awareness of even screen reader options in Linux. Speakup for example not only works with hardware speech...ever heard of a sound card? no idea those were obsolete, but it can work with embedded speech synthesis as well, is incorporated in Debian, and has an active development base. Finel <spelling> is another active screen reader project for Linux, this expert has not even heard of it. Something to consider though is that I am a media professional..catching factual errors in the first paragraph. Linux had the best accessibility, for whom? by what definition? to perform what tasks? and the first effort came from sun Micro..says who? Where did this new staff-member go to university? His software engineering degree is at what level? did they also say minor in disability studies at least? Sorry! This individual is only qualified to create, from his personal understanding access for himself, perhaps a handful of his friends. However actual inclusion, say use the human rights code as a basis generally means that an individual, where they are, can use the tools defined as best by them, to access your services, including our website. I can personally name three red hat users who have been involved in, and working regularly with fedora years before this person had even heard of Linux...and one of them is a computer scientist if memory serves. One interesting discussion on a Linux list focused on accessibility is how important it is that all aspects of Linux, console and gui work so that the individual can choose how they are going to use the system. managing a learning disability? Perhaps paraplegic? want to use your voice? and so forth. gGui is clunky time consuming and sounds reprehensible generally out of the box. then, the programs associated with said system themselves are not fully functional either. one thing, speaking personally, working against Linux is likely a strong point for seasoned users...Linux is clay. You can mold a system into what You desire, at least if you are knowledgeable enough. why is that a problem from an accessibility standpoint? Because by in large adaptive technology works as extensions of, if not substitutions for physical body processes. hands, ears, eyes, brains, a combination of these even if only a single diagnosis is on the table. Factor in that humans learn and interact WITH technology differently, and a clay structure is challenging. generally though you do not say remove your hands for a different set when banking, and again when shopping etc., or your eyes for that matter. To claim that Linux ever had the best accessibility of any operating system is frankly hysterical, not only because of the number of populations involved, none of whom are fully represented by this individual, but because sometimes it can take more than one Linux program to manage a task. Say to clap, you seem to need one for the right hand, on for just the left, and a third to bring them together. To be Honest, and I say this as a former Xerox adaptive technology staffer, the best operating system for accessibility, i. e. incorporated tools for multiple populations who read, write, and interact with technology differently is likely Apple..for several reasons. Still, what is profoundly concerning here is that the redhat team actually believes that accessibility applies to a single population, and is staffing someone who, by their definition is only qualified because he is a member of that single population. and hands down projected stereotyping contributes more to a lack of accessibility than anything else. could Linux become actually inclusive? certainly, would the process be easy? It depends, mainly on how much they are willing to toss out this accessibility only means blindness, and all blind people are the same dictionary they are using. Do look forward to sharing this article on a few lists, and watching the explosion. It is unfortunate comments are closed, Redhat could use an education. Just my thoughts though, Karen
I tend to agree with Karen. In particular, token diversity is still a real thing. It's very rare I see biological aspects of personality ever taken into consideration to prove my point. I think token diversity is a little thing for some companies who do this frankly. Most want to seem like there doing something but when you look at it closely it's not much.
That's just my take through,
Nick
On Tue, 9 Aug 2022, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
An article in Fedora Magazine talks about increased efforts to make the Fedora distribution more accessible.
<https://fedoramagazine.org/accessibility-in-fedora-workstation/>
This seems like a Good Thing. Karen Lewellen has been navigating these problems and posted some software problems here.
It would be good to have more attention to these problems.
Karen:
Do you have any reactions to this article for us?
Are there easy improvements that could be made? --- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
--- Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
participants (3)
-
D. Hugh Redelmeier -
Karen Lewellen -
Nicholas Krause